Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on February 24, 2005, 11:03:14 AM
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The leader of this Lebanese intifada [for independence from Syria] is Walid Jumblatt, the patriarch of the Druze Muslim community and, until recently, a man who accommodated Syria's occupation. But something snapped for Jumblatt last year, when the Syrians overruled the Lebanese constitution and forced the reelection of their front man in Lebanon, President Emile Lahoud. The old slogans about Arab nationalism turned to ashes in Jumblatt's mouth, and he and Hariri openly began to defy Damascus...
"It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq," explains Jumblatt. "I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world." Jumblatt says this spark of democratic revolt is spreading. "The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it."
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And Saudi Arabia isn't for behind also......
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Isn't it ironic that OBL attacked the US because he wanted US influence out of the middle east and now he may well have been the spark that created just the opposite effect?
Now instead of strick, Islamic run states, those states may be crumbling and giving way to democracies. Way to go OBL! :lol
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Anyone who remembers the Lebanese civil war knows the Druze are crazy. Hell most Muslims don't consider the Druze to be Muslim.
...Though I gotta say, I never felt more comfortable in Syria than I did in a Druze village. Good people. Crazy though.
People say the same thing about the Iraqis.
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Clearly you ladies didn't get the memo. It was all for oil...
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an article in Der Spiegel "Could George W. Bush Be Right?"
President Ronald Reagan's visit to Berlin in 1987 was, in many respects, very similar to President George W. Bush's visit to Mainz on Wednesday. . . . When Reagan stood before the Brandenburg Gate--and the Berlin Wall--and demanded that Gorbachev "tear down this Wall," he was lampooned the next day on the [German] editorial pages. He is a dreamer, wrote commentators. Realpolitik looks different.
But history has shown that it wasn't Reagan who was the dreamer as he voiced his demand. Rather, it was German politicians who were lacking in imagination--a group who in 1987 couldn't imagine that there might be an alternative to a divided Germany. Those who spoke of reunification were labelled as nationalists and the entire German left was completely uninterested in a unified Germany. . . .
Maybe history can repeat itself. Maybe the people of Syria, Iran or Jordan will get the idea in their heads to free themselves from their oppressive regimes just as the East Germans did. When the voter turnout in Iraq recently exceeded that of many Western nations, the chorus of critique from Iraq alarmists was, at least for a couple of days, quieted. Just as quiet as the chorus of Germany experts on the night of Nov. 9, 1989 when the Wall fell.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Isn't it ironic that OBL attacked the US because he wanted US influence out of the middle east and now he may well have been the spark that created just the opposite effect?
Now instead of strick, Islamic run states, those states may be crumbling and giving way to democracies. Way to go OBL! :lol
Ahem... I believe the term is democratically elected islamic state... er... I meant Shi'a.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ahem... I believe the term is democratically elected islamic state... er... I meant Shi'a.
True but democratically elected nontheless.
And considering the vast vast vast majority of the population there is muslam no matter what way it went it would still be an islamic state.
200+ years ago we were largely a Christian state
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ahem... I believe the term is democratically elected islamic state... er... I meant Shi'a.
Sandman,
Do you think that if there were elections similar to Iraq in Iran that the mullahs would be in power?
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I believe that if the majority of the citizenry is Muslim, and democracy means that the majority rules, then it would follow that Muslims would rule that democratic state.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
200+ years ago we were largely a Christian state
and if our present President has anything to say about it.... we will be again. ;)
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CAIRO, Feb. 26 - President Hosni Mubarak asked Egypt's Parliament on Saturday to amend the Constitution to allow for direct, multiparty presidential elections this year for the first time in the nation's history.
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cough cough theocracy....
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Religious states fighting each other. All those people who belive they have a monopoly on the truth trying to beat other peoples ways of life out of them because they disagree. I hope it doesn't come to that? Oh but hang on it already has?
I'm sure American style democracy is great but ask the chaps in the body bags, their families, those children and women laying dead in the rubble of their homes, under desert sands, those victims of bombings and attrocities to come, if war was the right way to achieve it?
I don't know maybe they will think it was. But can we be sure. After all they can't tell us anymore.
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Future historians may believe that the sanction policy in effect prior to the military option was the better policy to follow.
Unless they believe UNICEF, who in 1995 counted over 1 million Iraqis dead (half under the age of 5) due to the more humanitarian and peaceful sanction policy.
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As I said I don't know, but my natural reaction is to avoid war. The more I read and learn about it the more I think that war is not a real solution.
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Perhaps there was a middle ground course of action available, somwhere between continued economic sanctions and the basically unilateral invasion by the US, against a country that had little if anything to do with 9/11.
btw, where is Osama Bin Laden? Remember him?
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Originally posted by Raider179
cough cough theocracy....
you wish LOL
theocracy = a political unit governed by a deity (or by officials thought to be divinely guided)
democracy = Derived from two ancient Greek words demos (the people) and kratos (strength). A system of government in which governance of the people is by elected representatives.
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Originally posted by Zulu7
As I said I don't know, but my natural reaction is to avoid war. The more I read and learn about it the more I think that war is not a real solution.
Yeah, it's a fake solution.
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Nope wrong there Nuke. Its a devastating one only to be used in last resort.
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zulu... sanctions were killing millions. The war will end. but... what would you suggest that should have been done? It is all fine to say that "something" else should have been done but...
The greatest minds before the war came up with solutions that were worse than war... but then... maybe you have a plan?
lazs
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Lazs I don't know but I'm not a world leader. Maybe just isolating iraq. Making sure that Saddam couldn't de stabilise the region. Using more covert operations to destabilise his Govt, using brains rather than brawn. if The CIA are so good why didn't they achieve that? Rather than go in guns blazing killing a lot of innocent people aznd making enemies in the region for both our nations.
No answer just a question.
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so... how do you do that? we tried and all we got was the UN making money of the sadman killing and torturing thousands a month.. that is your idea of a better solution to war?
It is easy to say we should have tried something else until someone calls yu on it.
lazs
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Originally posted by Krusher
you wish LOL
theocracy = a political unit governed by a deity (or by officials thought to be divinely guided)
democracy = Derived from two ancient Greek words demos (the people) and kratos (strength). A system of government in which governance of the people is by elected representatives.
You do know that Iran is a theocratic republic right? They govern based on Islamic law. That is the idea behind (or by officials thought to be divinely guided). That is also probably what will emerge in Iraq.
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I think in the case of somewhere like Bosnia. We probably should have gone to War. Certainly a kind of "if you commit one more atrocity whoever you are, serb, muslim or croat, you will be at war with us " kind of thing. The same for Ruanda. I think in both those situations there was little other way. The shooting and massacres were already going on.
I don't think I raq was the same. The situation was more complex. Its my personal opinion and maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think the war was the right move. I think it was started because GW had an obsession with it. Not for any strategic or humanitarian benefit. The other stuff was tacked on to try and justify his and Blairs actions.
And what of the war on Terror. Most of the 911 terrorists were Saudi. A country with bad human rights record and definately not a democracy. What is Bush doing about that? Sweet FA because its all about money. There was no economic benefit in Bosnia. Nor in Ruanda. but there is in the middle east so we put up with govts like Saudi and go to war on the Iraqis. Its hypocracy and just plain wrong. Bush foreign policy is a mess and ours is going down the same tube. we have secret services. I'm sure they could have worked from the inside to bring down Saddam.
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soooo... what would you have done? And..... if it was hyupocracy to pick one torturing. murdering genocide Ahole out and finish his gold toilet seat sitting butt off...
Then why was bosnia a good thing when guys like the sadman and the congo were happening? because it was in youropes interest?
you are right.. I do see hypocracy here.
lazs
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Originally posted by Zulu7
Lazs I don't know but I'm not a world leader. Maybe just isolating iraq. Making sure that Saddam couldn't de stabilise the region. Using more covert operations to destabilise his Govt, using brains rather than brawn. if The CIA are so good why didn't they achieve that? Rather than go in guns blazing killing a lot of innocent people aznd making enemies in the region for both our nations.
No answer just a question.
Hmm wasnt that idea tried in North Korea?
Dunno bout you but Im somewhat less then satisfied with the results.
And for isolating it to work you would have to get everyone to co operate in isolating it.
Which is now obvious in Iraq wasnt happening or going to happen.
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Egyptian President Says He Will Push Multiparty Elections (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56470-2005Feb26.html)
ROME, Feb. 26 -- Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, under pressure at home and abroad to democratize, said Saturday that he would ask his country's parliament to change the constitution and permit multiparty popular elections
Afghanistand Voters Queue
(http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/media/voters_queue_2002.jpg)
Iraq Voters
(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.main.1454/story.kurd.ap.jpg)
:aok
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And Palestinians too.
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Originally posted by Raider179
You do know that Iran is a theocratic republic right? They govern based on Islamic law. That is the idea behind (or by officials thought to be divinely guided). That is also probably what will emerge in Iraq.
hahahahahahahaha
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Originally posted by Toad
Egyptian President Says He Will Push Multiparty Elections (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56470-2005Feb26.html)
I have been assisting you ... Look up a few post :)
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Originally posted by mosgood
And Saudi Arabia isn't for behind also......
nor Pakistan
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Originally posted by NUKE
Isn't it ironic that OBL attacked the US because he wanted US influence out of the middle east and now he may well have been the spark that created just the opposite effect?
Now instead of strick, Islamic run states, those states may be crumbling and giving way to democracies. Way to go OBL! :lol
Why do you think that people of ME love USA ? Fact that they would like to decide about their leaders doesnt mean that they will lick your butt. Most of them doesnt like US presence in ME, so once some "democratic" candidate will put "Fight agains US attempt to influence domestical politic" on his to do list, he will win. So you will never see demoracy in Pro-American countries in ME, like SA, Pakistan.
Do you remember, when students in Tehran went to the streets, what Bush said to them and how did they reply to him ?
Do you already have balls to take your passport and travell to place, where people love you ?
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Hard to follow but I agree Lada. Mind you I'm not American and Rightwing!
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Originally posted by lazs2
so... how do you do that? we tried and all we got was the UN making money of the sadman killing and torturing thousands a month.. that is your idea of a better solution to war?
You could simply support people, in their actions, instead of sending them under knife.
Yes, im talking about Shia uprise in 90`s, where big oscar Bush promised them help if they uprise and he didnt provide even toilet paper and they were masacred.
Ofcourse, nobody in US is guilty ... only SH is evil guy and lair
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Originally posted by lada
Ofcourse, nobody in US is guilty ... only SH is evil guy and lair
Who massacred them lada?
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He was allowed to by your Govt at the time.
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You mean our governments... The region was under the authority of the UN coalition.
And the answer is Saddam ordered Iraqis to kill Iraqis.
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Indeed. Our Govts if you like. Yes Saddam ordered the Killing but to be fair we encouraged them to start an uprising then stood back and watched them get killed.
Didn't the Russians do something like that to Warsaw?
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Originally posted by Zulu7
He was allowed to by your Govt at the time.
Based on your previous post "you" would never have supported helping them in the first place.
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soo... an "uprising" is not a war? men women and children don't get killed by a madman when he puts down an "uprising"?
Seems none of you care about killing or torture or corruption much ... just if you can get a dig at a leader you hate or not.
lazs
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And the walls, come tumblin down.
Lebanon's Prime Minister Omar Karami has announced he and his government are resigning, two weeks after the murder of former PM Rafik Hariri. The move came as crowds protested in Beirut, calling for Syrian troops to leave the country.