Originally posted by Panzzer
Transfer camp
Entry and socializing forbidden under menace of being shot.
Or something like that.. So it's "Do not enter or talk through the fence or you will be shot."
Originally posted by Furball
Ota pikkuhousut pois ja pyllistд, lutka
Originally posted by Staga
LOL ! WHere have you learned that one? It's pretty good !
Stalin did not appreciate returning prisoners of war. A total of some 5,5 million were recovered after the war. Thousands were massacred on arrival, while the overwhelming majority of the remainder disappeared and died in forced-labour camps. Stalin felt that anyone who had been outside the Soviet Union was a potential counter-revolutionary. The NKVD collected "enemies of the people" (including minorities) and sent them, untrained and frequently unarmed, to the battlefield.
Originally posted by Toad
I still want to know why the Finns attacked the Russians.
Originally posted by storch
I like anyone who attacks russians.
Originally posted by Staga
Well there's another error; "Perkele" wasn't a "Devil" like in bible but he was the ancient God of the skies, rain and lightnings, higher than "Tapio" the god of the forests, "Ahti" the god of the water and "Ilmari" the god of wind.
So actually word "Perkele" isn't a cuss word at all; it's just that so few people know this in Finland.
Originally posted by storch
I like anyone who attacks russians.
Originally posted by Toad
Staga, that is just so mean.
Stalin did not kill any returning POWs. They were welcomed home with feasts, given huge houses to call their own in lovely residential areas. Each and every one of them.
That's how it really happened. Ask Boroda, he'll tell you.
Originally posted by Boroda
BTW, only after WWII the death penalty was restored in USSR, only for several years.
It's amazing how Western propaganda fairy-tales contradict with what really happened :(
....Alexander Yakovlev was a senior, long-serving central committee member who rose under Gorbachev to advise on perestroika, and then under Yeltsin headed the commission on the rehabilitation of the victims of political repression....
....Then he shows how Lenin terrorised the peasantry and Stalin followed his lead, how, even before the Great Terror, Molotov was planning the execution or deportation of hundreds of thousands of peasants.
It was the same story with the intelligentsia and the clergy. The Soviets shot 157,000 of their own soldiers (or 15 divisions) during the war; returning POWs were dispatched to Siberia where most died. He moves on to the genocides of Poles, Germans and Koreans living in Russia before the war and then the Chechens and others afterwards, deported en masse and murdered in vast numbers.
Fascinatingly, he chronicles Stalin’s and the USSR’s institutional anti-semitism: he uses his own experiences with one of Stalin’s most disgusting mass murderers, Matvei Shkiryatov, who first attacked young Yakovlev for not being anti-semitic enough and then tried to blame him for being too anti- semitic, of which he was entirely innocent.
Until these crimes are admitted and understood, Yakovlev believes Russia will remain “bogged down in the mire . . . Only when it has shaken free of Bolshevism can Russia hope to be healed”.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Death was one of the merciful punishments in the USSR.
Boroda, just to be clear where I stand, I hate communism and the USSR.
I have no idea why you take every chance to defend it. I'm starting to think that you are a very subtle, intelligent and knowledgeable...troll.
Originally posted by Boroda
Some Finnish friends here denied this facts completely.
Originally posted by Toad
Another lying Westerner...
Russia: A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia by Alexander Yakovlev
Originally posted by Boroda
Please, understand, that the main purpose of this topic was to show Finns some evidence about Finnish atrocities and genocide against non-Finnish population on occupied terrritories. Some Finnish friends here denied this facts completely.
Originally posted by Toad
This, coming from you, HAS to be the odds-on favorite for winning the "Mount Everest of Irony" award for 2005.
Originally posted by Staga
Maybe it's just me but all I can see is a sign, childrens (living if I may add) and barbed wire fence but no evidences about atrocities and genocide?
We cannot do away with the past by hiding behind lies. The dead will catch up with the living sooner or later, and will harshly demand moral repentance
Originally posted by Boroda
Please, understand, that the main purpose of this topic was to show Finns some evidence about Finnish atrocities and genocide against non-Finnish population on occupied terrritories. Some Finnish friends here denied this facts completely.
Originally posted by Staga
btw Boroda; would you like to see a picture of Finnish children and women after Russian partisans attacked their village when men were at the front?
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
please understand that the sound of Stukas dropping bombs on bolshies is my favourite music.
My hatred of USSR is deeper than reason.
Death to all commies!
Originally posted by Toad
Gorby and Putin admit the Russians killed 20K+ Polish POWs at Katyn and a few other places and documentation is provided...so they are traitors. :lol
In January 2000, Russia's president-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned Polish President Aleksander Kwaњniewski to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave thought to contain the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the Second World War.
The grave was found near Smolensk, close to Katyс, where some 4000 Polish officers had already been found. Between 15,000 and 25,700 people were executed in April and May of 1940 following the Soviet invasion, and most of the bodies have never been recovered. The Katyс massacre, as the event is known, has long served as a symbol of Soviet crimes against Poland.
On April 12th 2000 in Warsaw Reuters announced that President-elect Putin has admitted the location of what is thought to be another Polish mass grave near the Katyn site of the 1940 slaughter of Poles by the NKVD
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
please understand that the sound of Stukas dropping bombs on bolshies is my favourite music.
My hatred of USSR is deeper than reason.
Death to all commies!
Originally posted by Toad
It isn't news to you. I've pointed this out to you before with even more references.
Research Putin's January 2000 visit to Poland. He said it, it's history, it's documented.
There isn't any doubt about who killed the Poles at Katyn. It was the NKVD.
You're probably one of the last people left on earth that pretends otherwise.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
and you, Mr. Boroda, shou'd change your name to O'Brien.
Hope somebody gets the inference
In the 1992 Russian Federation president Boris Yeltsin offered a file of documents pertaining to Katyn massacre, to Poland president Lech Walesa. They were all classified, until October 14,1992, as "Top Secret" and are the proof of Soviets guilt. One of them (shown below) is the direct Stalin's order to NKVD (Soviet's secret political police) to execute all Polish prisoners held by them.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Boroda: Read 1984 by George Orwell.
Also you should try Animal Farm
Of course, to you he's just an ignorant westerner so anything he says must be discounted.
Western "friends" can find evidence of Soviet crimes even in annual State Automobile Inspection reports.
You fail to understand that 1984 is a book about your possible future.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hey blaming the manufacturing of lada's as a crime is a point worth making.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda if there were indeed concentration camps and 150 000 people were killed there, don't you think there should be quite large mass graves next to the sites?
Can you show a few of those?
Or.. did the horrible finns eat the corpses?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The soviet system has repeatedly been proven to be the most corrupt social system ever built to date. The whole society was based on lies. An estonian guy I know told me that the maps they had in 'war training' lessons at elementary school showed finland in bright red color and the border to USSR was missing somehow. I couldn't believe him when he told that they had classes in regular schools that were equipped with kalashnikovs, hand grenades and other military items. He swore it was the truth, however.
Talk about brainwash - the minors are the best subjects.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Boroda, you'd definitely make the Inner Party.Probbaly run the Ministry of Truth :)
a son of a colonel of Engineering corps and a doctor of science.
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, "Stalin's original order" is a fake so obvious to any person able to read Russian that it's funny. :(
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
ok I'm bored of this.
Boroda, your country still doesn't have freedom of the press. what do you have to say about that?
Originally posted by Boroda
BTW, spitfiremkv, you are AKA Masherbrum? You an alpinist? My handle in some Russian-speaking places in Tengrie, you probably know about the Marble Peak, the King of Sky-Dwellers?
Originally posted by Boroda
Strange. JFYI: I have read 1984 in high school. Bloody Soviet regime, wasn't it? :rofl
I admit that you could get troubles if you had a copy of 1984 before mid-80s, but wasn't there a same thing about some Communist literature in the US?...
You fail to understand that 1984 is a book about your possible future. It's obvious that his book is about a trend in so-called "Western democracy".
There are many wise books about modern society that make 1984 look like a fairy-tale for kids, but I read them mostly from Russian-speaking authors. Most of the ideas about personality-supression in modern states works in Soviet, Western-democratic and modern-Russian (post-Soviet) states... I am extremely cynic about modern society. Dummyfying at it's best.
Mass graves were found in 1944. Soviet official policy was to conceal crimes made by "friendly states". I, personally, found information about Finnish occupation of Karelia only in late-90s on the Net.
Originally posted by Suave
Hey boroda, tell us again how Finland was an aggressor in wwII, and how the airplane and the light bulb were invented in ussr, and how the UN were the aggressors in the korean conflict, and how noble Milosovic defended his country against Nato aggression. Please regale us.
Oh and for the uninitiatied at this forum. Yes boroda has asserted all of these things here. No, I'm not joking.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
locking up the NKVD infested Soviet population was a good idea IMO.:p
Originally posted by Wmaker
There is a book called "Menetetty lapsuus suomalaismiehittдjien vankeudessa 1941-44" written about these workcamps in Karelia by Marja-Leena Mikkola.
(http://www.keskipohjanmaa.fi/gen/300405_240.jpg)
http://www.keskipohjanmaa.fi/gen/300404.asp
I say it again. There were no concentration camps. There were work camps where conditions definately weren't good. Where I come from concentration camp means a place were people are "concentrated" and systematically exterminated. There were no such camps in Karelia...they were work camps.
Originally posted by Wmaker
Those camps were started by an order from Finnish Army HQ given on 8.7.1941 went like this: "People from eastern Karelia should be treated kindly but carefully. The Soviet population are to be captured and put to the workcamps.".
Originally posted by Wmaker
In summer of -42 there were total of 24000 prisoners. The total death toll depending on sources is between 4600-8000. So these Boroda's figures (150000 deaths) are just some soviet propaganda he's picked up from somewhere.
Originally posted by Wmaker
This is definately something that there's not much reason to be proud of and it's very unfortunate. The main reason why these people ended up in these camps was because unlike Finland, USSR didn't care s*** about its citizens and didn't even bother to evaquate them so they were left behind the lines. Finland evaquated Karelia when Winter War started and during The Great Attack in the summer of 1944. So there simply weren't any finns for the soviets to execute or send to Siberia.
Originally posted by Wmaker
And when you look at the situation in Karelia. Considering the possibilities what these people could be doing behind our lines also had to be taken into account. We had just lost whole Karelia and few other parts Finland in a war that USSR started so do you have to wonder why soviet people might not have been too popular? When Japan started the war against US the japanese living in US were also put into camps.
Originally posted by Wmaker
BUT here comes the MAIN POINT. This reply wasn't written to Boroda. He's already made up his mind and I really couldn't care less what he thinks. Like everyone here has noticed he's way beyond repair. :)
Originally posted by Wmaker
My purpose here was to bring some real info about the subject because foreigners might have difficulties finding it.
You see, Boroda not many poeple take you too seriously, huh? :) Everyone knows you are full of it and as long as it stays that way I couldn't give a rat's a** what you think or say.
It doesn't matter what some clueless ryssд in Moscow thinks.
Originally posted by Panzzer
BTW, Boroda, I might[/i] be coming to Moscow in August for the MAKS Airshow (http://www.airshow.ru/), I am not sure yet if I'll be able to come.. But at least some of us Finns are going (Grendel plus friends :)). I'll try to make it, I'll need some cash and some spare time in August...
Oops, sorry, going a bit offtopic :rolleyes: (Yeah, like this thread hasn't gotten out of hand already..)
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Uh we could show you something similar..
Like the Berlin wall? One big motha of a concentration camp.
Those pics were from trasnportation camps right? The occupants that didn't belong in the area occupied by russia were transported away, not executed.
You're so full of bs Boroda. How do you even dare to post such bs when everyone knows the atrocities committed by your country. Russian POW:s pleeded for thier life when captured. Not because they were afraid of the capturing army, it's because they knew they'd be shot on sight if they ever were returned back to the great old russia.
While you're at it, post some numbers and proof of the so called genocide. And don't bother to use any 'unbiased and generally trustworthy' russian sites. Try to find something from any western source.
We move to wait.
Originally posted by Boroda
Strange. JFYI: I have read 1984 in high school. Bloody Soviet regime, wasn't it? :rofl
I admit that you could get troubles if you had a copy of 1984 before mid-80s, but wasn't there a same thing about some Communist literature in the US?...
You fail to understand that 1984 is a book about your possible future. It's obvious that his book is about a trend in so-called "Western democracy".
There are many wise books about modern society that make 1984 look like a fairy-tale for kids, but I read them mostly from Russian-speaking authors. Most of the ideas about personality-supression in modern states works in Soviet, Western-democratic and modern-Russian (post-Soviet) states... I am extremely cynic about modern society. Dummyfying at it's best.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Death was one of the merciful punishments in the USSR.
Boroda, just to be clear where I stand, I hate communism and the USSR.
I have no idea why you take every chance to defend it. I'm starting to think that you are a very subtle, intelligent and knowledgeable...troll.
Originally posted by Gunslinger
kinda off subject but today my wife made a funny:
"is his name really Putin......like somone trying to fart or poop?"
Originally posted by Toad
Well, if it gets too bad you can go home to the great life you left behind.
Originally posted by Toad
Lol! Frankly speaking friends? Is that how you view yourself?
Whatever. Feel free to say whatever you like while you're here. It's a thing we pride ourselves upon. I may not agree with you, but I'd fight to defend your right to say it.
Please, just don't be the Euro that thinks "free speech" means you get to spout off and we all have to agree with you.
And when it all gets just too hard, too terrible here for ya... well, the door you walked in will always be open for you to exit the same way. Nobody will try to make you stay.. that's another thing we pride ourselves on.
Maybe we'll miss you, maybe we won't.
Originally posted by Boroda
"You can name it however you like, it doesn't change the fact that Soviet people were starved there on industrial basis."
Originally posted by Boroda
The Soviet population are to be captured and put to the workcamps
Ok. So you admit that Finnish politics was national segregation with one part of population ("Soviets", AKA Russians, Ukrainians, Jews and other nationalities) had to be put into "workcamps" (a Finnish newspeak word for concentration camps), and other part, a Finnish (Saam) minority enjoyed some privileges if they wore special armbands (heimokansalainen, I hope I spelled it correctly, had to transcribe it bach to Latin from Cyrillic).
Sure. Kindly but carefully starved to death. My hat of for kindness of Finnish occupants."
Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, I just took 150000 from the cieling, I don't have any exact numbers. With death rate higher then in nazi camps - the rotation of the camps population had to be really fast.
Originally posted by Boroda
Are you seriously blaming USSR for starving Soviet people in Finnish camps!? Have you ever heard about common sence? Or this concept is completely new for you?!
Can you imagine the scales of evacuation process in USSR in 1941? Tens of millions of people were evacuated, for you to understand - several dozens of Finlands.
Originally posted by Boroda
Beautiful. If US have put Japanese population to internment camps - then Finns can starve Soviet people wholesale.
JFYI: German colonists in USSR were not put into labor camps after 1941. They were moved from Ukraine and Volga region to inner parts of the Union. Mostly after German colonists in Ukraine started to shoot Soviet soldiers in the back.
Originally posted by Boroda
then Finns can starve Soviet people wholesale.
Originally posted by Boroda
But don't you please tell me that you were angels in white armour, fighting dirty bolshevik barbarians.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hey blaming the manufacturing of lada's as a crime is a point worth making.
Originally posted by lada
Waaaahhaaaaat ?
me and crimes ??
pfffeeee
:D
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Well Boroda if they used maps from 1913 in the classroom and USSR was created back then, you're right.
Otherwise you could just ask any of the hundreds of thousands estonians that went through these classes. I'm sure they'll tell what all of them were smoking during the hostile occupation of thier country.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
That explains a lot.. your family belonged to the soviet elite. It must have been cozy to enjoy the priviledges while making sure that nothing could geopardize the position. You must have been well educated if they actually let you out of the country.
Did a party member follow you everywhere while in states btw? :D
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I ignore myself now? Boroda, you must be one neurotic SOB! :rofl
Get a life.
Karaya
Originally posted by genozaur
Boroda,
The latest edition of '1984' has the title 'USA-2004'. It's not the future of America, it's her present. :(
You tell me this stupid **** again and again. It's pretty simple: a bloody lie. It was impossible to show an independant country as a part of the USSR. The person who did so should have biiig problems with local Party authorities.
Originally posted by Toad
Well, if it gets too bad you can go home to the great life you left behind.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Just FYI I happen to know several estonians. One of my work collegues is estonian and he served in the soviet paratrooper forces. We've made several drinking trips over there (after estonia regained its independence, duh..)
I'm sure the map in question still hangs in the classroom or storehouse of the district in Tallinn, you're free to go there and check yourself. I kid you not. I can even get you the street address probably if you desperately want to see it with your own eyes.
Originally posted by storch
I remember some of those. we have a large russian population here in Miami. I like them generally but they are as brainwashed and ignorant as a human can be. I have had these same allegations said to me and they become offended as I laugh at them. At least the ones that are my age believe them to be so. Also the Brasilians think that Santos-Dumont was the first man to truly fly heavier than air because the wrights used a catapault to launch the flyer while Santos-Dumont actually rolled into the air. They get offended when I laugh also.
Originally posted by storch
American pop culture is saving the next generation for us so we have nothing to fear, I think.
Originally posted by Toad
No.
I didn't "tell" anyone to "go" anywhere.
I just pointed out that unlike some other countries in the pastBerlin Wall , the door is always open in the US. You can come and go as you please.
No Border Guards will shoot you as you try to sneak across the mined and wired no man's land.
Unlike some other places you may have lived. :rofl
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda is a sad victim of a 1943 propaganda campaign which aimed to put finland in a bad light in the eyes of the other allied countries. Russia did it's best to justify it's aggression on a country that was a fraction of its size.
I'm sure even uncle Josif never thought someone would fall for it 60 years later.
If the people in those camps were industrially starved to death, how come those children looked awfully different from the holocaust survivers in the _real_ camps? Nah, let's not use any logic in this, easyer to believe the ministry of propaganda and documents dated 1943.
The soviets didn't bother to evacuate the civillians when the war rolled over thier homes. The finns evacuated every woman, child, cow and the dog because they knew that getting to russian hands would be a punisment worse than death. Mass rapings (dog included), violence, then inhumane gulag conditions for the rest of the life.
The civillian population had to be controlled and taken away from thier new homes because those new homes were the ones stolen from finnish occupants in the first place. There's no point to recapture land if you can't evict the new population in the process. Makes sense to any western mind, huh?
I hear most of the smart russian civillians knew already then that once they were returned home they'd go under a quick political trial and headed off to the gulags for suspected co-operation with capitalists.
Even back then they knew how dangerous knowledge was to people - nobody should know that USSR wasn't the paradise of thier lies but instead the neighbouring countries had way higher standard of living.
The finns evacuated every woman, child, cow and the dog [end of quote]...; [new quote] Mass rapings (dog included) .... [end of quote].
Are you talking here of mass rapings of dogs ? :confused:
And BTW, several written battle reports of different Red Army officers to their higher command show that some cows found their death in the fires set up by the retreating Finnish troops who usually burnt their villages.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Sorry to say Boroda but you're on the losing end of this argument. Have you ever wondered why the rest of the world tells a different story compared to yours?
You know, one country vs rest of the world? Which one is more likely to be true?
As far as that address goes, my friend graduated from that school 16 years ago so it might not even exist any longer. I will ask him if he remembers the addy and inform you though. Remember that this was eyewitness by estonian - who speaks fluent russian.
Rest of the world, Boroda. Think.
The East Berliner construction worker, Peter Fechter, is shot and injured by border guards. Not provided with any medical assistance, he bleeds to death in "no-man's-land." Again, the pictures make the headlines of the world.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Sorry to say Boroda but you're on the losing end of this argument. Have you ever wondered why the rest of the world tells a different story compared to yours?
You know, one country vs rest of the world? Which one is more likely to be true?
As far as that address goes, my friend graduated from that school 16 years ago so it might not even exist any longer. I will ask him if he remembers the addy and inform you though. Remember that this was eyewitness by estonian - who speaks fluent russian.
Rest of the world, Boroda. Think.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
ok I'm bored of this.
Boroda, your country still doesn't have freedom of the press. what do you have to say about that?
What if that billion of Chinese say that noodle is a bone ? Is it more likely to be true ?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda is a sad victim of a 1943 propaganda campaign which aimed to put finland in a bad light in the eyes of the other allied countries. Russia did it's best to justify it's aggression on a country that was a fraction of its size.
I'm sure even uncle Josif never thought someone would fall for it 60 years later.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
If the people in those camps were industrially starved to death, how come those children looked awfully different from the holocaust survivers in the _real_ camps? Nah, let's not use any logic in this, easyer to believe the ministry of propaganda and documents dated 1943.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The soviets didn't bother to evacuate the civillians when the war rolled over thier homes.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The finns evacuated every woman, child, cow and the dog because they knew that getting to russian hands would be a punisment worse than death. Mass rapings (dog included), violence, then inhumane gulag conditions for the rest of the life.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The civillian population had to be controlled and taken away from thier new homes because those new homes were the ones stolen from finnish occupants in the first place. There's no point to recapture land if you can't evict the new population in the process. Makes sense to any western mind, huh?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I hear most of the smart russian civillians knew already then that once they were returned home they'd go under a quick political trial and headed off to the gulags for suspected co-operation with capitalists.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Even back then they knew how dangerous knowledge was to people - nobody should know that USSR wasn't the paradise of thier lies but instead the neighbouring countries had way higher standard of living.
Originally posted by Toad
You'd be arrested if you tried to enter illegally and the overworked INS caught you.
Otherwise, why would you be arrested? Is Interpol after you or something?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I've never even been to US Boroda.
However I've been to russia, estonia, finland, sweden, norway, netherlands, france, italy, greece, ex-yugoslavia and the united kingdom. And yes, I have a pretty good clue of the european map.
I know people through internet that come from even bigger multitude of countries.
Trust me, it's you against the rest. Snap out of it.
Originally posted by Boroda
The word that starts with "free" and ends with "host".
I have read the FBI papers against us. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Boroda
The word that starts with "free" and ends with "host".
I have read the FBI papers against us. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
But unless you live in a totally closed society (such as you have lived all your life) you get information and impressions from all over the world. If they contradict to your beliefs you can study. If you find similar evidence from all over the world, a normal person will draw the conclusion that the original information was false.
Or maybe it's just a world wide conspiracy.
You are a liar. You once wrote here that you are from a village called "Angola" somewhere in Mid-West.
Originally posted by Toad
Oh, well. You didn't say you were a criminal.
Well obviously they'd pick you up if they knew you were a criminal.
Ask HT if he thinks what you did was illegal before you begin your tear-filled story, ok?
Originally posted by Suave
Exactly, one country uses one version of history, the rest of the world uses a different version.
Which is more likely to be true?
Keeping children in concentration camps?! Beautifull.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Lol! Did you really buy that?
First rule in internet information exchange:
Never ever give any personal information to anyone unless you trust them completely. Even then one should be cautious.
So seriously, that wasn't my real location and no, I'm not going to post any personal information on a public UBB. :rofl
Originally posted by Toad
Oh, well. You didn't say you were a criminal.
Well obviously they'd pick you up if they knew you were a criminal.
Ask HT if he thinks what you did was illegal before you begin your tear-filled story, ok?
Originally posted by genozaur
So, why were you taught about the "Roman" but not the Etruscan civilization ?
Originally posted by Toad
Hey, I'm not going to be on the jury. So save your tear-filled innocence.
Call HT and explain it all to him. If he forgives you, I'm sure they'll give you a Visa.
Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, was John Lennon a criminal ?
But FBI had a file on him where you can find the lyrics of his song 'Imagine'. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hey Toad do you think I'd get arrested if I happened to land there one day? :p
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda is a sad victim of a 1943 propaganda campaign which aimed to put finland in a bad light in the eyes of the other allied countries. Russia did it's best to justify it's aggression on a country that was a fraction of its size.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The communists loved the history. Especially when it was easy to distort it according to thier needs.
Every minute spent studying about past civilizations is a minute spent informing the youth of the great history of the nation and a minute away from pondering contemporary problems.
It's not a coincidence that they start showing old soviet propaganda films down there again Boroda.
First you have to do something.
How many Soviet films did you see? How many Soviet books did you read? Eh?
Originally posted by Boroda
Gena (i hope you'll not be offended for such an adressing), you know too many clever words. Definetly, you are an asian barbarian on his shaggy mount, unlike civilized consumers of coca-cola and chewing-gum!
Before using such complicated comparisons here you have to explain all ancient history to your opponents. :D
Originally posted by Boroda
Gena, rech' ne o tom. Na nas na samom dele nastuchali v fbr po povodu nashego proekta (ya tebe ssylki daval). Tam est' ssylka na glavnoy stranice na perepisku s albancami, ochen' pouchitel'no. A potom oni poslali klyauzu v fbr na nas, deskat' nanesli uscherb v 265 shtuk grina. Idioty.
Originally posted by Sparks
Boroda - if this is a troll WTG :aok
If it isn't ................. then people like you are a good reason for keeping NATO.
Russia is an economic disaster, is controlled in the major part by criminals, has corruption as a national pastime, is letting it's nuclear fleet rot to the point of being a world environmental crisis, has an ex military president who is steadily removing any trace of democracy and who is now selling nuclear material to an extremist Islamic state just to name a few points.................. and you can only spend your time arguing the voracity of events that by all worldwide assessment are facts and pirating software to earn a living.
About says it all really .............
It must be a wonderful place.
Originally posted by Staga
Siaf; I know also Russians who are well aware of Soviet Union/Russian propaganda and how surrealistic (her description) and abnormal nation S-U was.
Originally posted by Staga
I'm trying to get a 12 month Visa; I should visit Chelyabinsk aka "Tankograd" and maybe Moscow this spring/ summer, possible Nizhniy Novgorod too if I have time.
Originally posted by Toad
I'm sure if you just clear up the misunderstanding with the FBI you'll be able to get a visa.
Make a post when you do... I'll send you my phone number. You can come over and I'll tell you tales of Capitalist Reconnaissance.
Did I ever mention the time I buzzed Red Square in an RC-135U?
No?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I've seen a couple old soviet films, which were not propaganda directly. They don't display that stuff here in the west you know. However I have seen a few documents that have touched the issue. Enough to realize what you've been subjected to.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Books.. russian yes, soviet - no interest whatsoever. It's very hard to find one to begin with.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
But hey, you're like an open book. You verify all my suspicions to the
maximum. I used to wonder what my estonian friend meant when he said 'a typical russian' but I'm getting a faint clue now. :cool:
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
And btw. in the Rambo issue we agree Boroda. During the cold war many movies were made with the same format. Just before Gulf1 there were a multitude of low budget movies which surprisingly enough featured commando strikes to middle east. :lol
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So you don't have a monopoly on propaganda Boroda. But you TRY HARD. ;)
So, they didn't and don't display Soviet movies in the US. We saw many American films here in 70s-80s. Now tell me, who's society was more open?
Originally posted by Boroda
I say that it was simply different and that's all. Not better or worse. Different.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I wouldn't know about that really since I've never been on the US soil in my life.
The biggest reason why the soviet movies weren't displayed anywhere was that your movie industry couldn't produce entertaining titles that would have been financially succesful. Simple as that.
Originally posted by Fishu
So different, that many of the countries "liberated" by USSR wanted to get rid of the difference.
I'm truly happy Finland didn't become part of the simply different order.
I wonder how many karelian people would been killed in the USSR work camps or such, had they not been evacuated.
USSR sure would have "evacuated" them permanently from the war zone and brought russians there.
Thats the way they "liberated" many areas, by moving large parts of the original population to somewhere else and moving in russians to their homes from somewhere else.
Germans did have problems with the civilians left behind advancing forces.
Because "surprisingly" some of them were armed.
So I don't wonder why someones didn't the idea of having russian people right behind the finnish frontline.
What do you think your great USSR would've done in a similar situation? told finns to behave nice behind the lines?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Genozaur fortunately there are plenty of ex-ussr countries today, filled with people who would like nothing more than to advise you of the joys and pleasures of being under USSR rule.
Every single person I've talked to from those countries hate russians more than anything. How come?
Insect-countries who's presidents refused from an invitation to May 9th celebration in Moscow?
Countries that are EU and NATO members, at the same time organising SS "veteran" parades and declaring nazi concentration camps "recreational"?
So it goes, typical for a propaganda victim.
Originally posted by Staga
1 Year Visa for Russians to get in Finland 35пїЅ
Similar Visa for Finns to get in Russia 240пїЅ
Poor bastards.
Originally posted by Staga
1 Year Visa for Russians to get in Finland 35Ђ
Similar Visa for Finns to get in Russia 240Ђ
Poor bastards.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I hate to rain on your victory parade Boroda, but I think that the people who used to live in the occupied countries have a right to thier opinnion.
If they had no reason for dissatisfaction, why do you think they grasp every straw to secure themselves away from your country? Huh?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Think Borotscka, think.
Originally posted by mora
The companies that mediate Visas actually take a big piece of the 240пїЅ. If you have your own invitation you can get it directly from a consulate for about 100пїЅ(still damn expensive]. I don't know what's the procedure for the invitation or can a private person give you an invitation.
Originally posted by StSanta
Boroda, no matter what you say, this is true:
Russian roads suck. Big time. They got more holes in 'em than Swiss cheeze. They're so banged up had they been human, they'd be a worn out prostitute who spends her time up against walls with sailors.
Seriously dude. I had problems getting used to OUR roads back home when i got home from my three week stay. No bumps or big arse holes. No liver jumping up to kiss my nose.
Originally posted by StSanta
You may have awesome jump iron (AN-28, Mi-8), but your roads...they're almost as bad as your drivers.
Can't wait to go back.
I'll be in Russia week 28, 29, and 30 this year - around July 1st forward or something. A bunch of us will fly to Moscow and then find a way to get to Kolomna. If you can figure out a way for me to get there, I'll drop by your place and tell a lot of brag stories, and then go to Kolomna.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I hate to rain on your victory parade Boroda
This was their Victory. And no insects can spoil it 60 years later.
Originally posted by Boroda
Our cause was just. We have won.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Fishu
>>What did poles and the other baltic nations do to USSR?
And what Iraq do to USA? It`s just a liberation, yeah?
Why you blame Russia? Why *only* Russia? Why you don`t blame China for Tibet? Why don`t blame USA for Iraq, Afganistan and Vietnam occupation? Why all of you concetrate on Russia?
BTW, what about polish intervention in Russia in XVII centuary? How about Soviet-Polsha war in 1920 when your nation occupy parts of Ukraine an Bellorusia? What ukraine and belorusian people do to poles? Only after our victory in Great Patriotic War west Ukraine and west Belorusia was returned to the USSR from occupation by *your* nation.
Originally posted by Raven_2
>>Raven if you read REALLY CAREFULLY You can see Fishu is not a pole.
Uhm. Sorry. But it has no difference. This don`t change facts of occupation by poles.
Originally posted by Raven_2
>>You know, Finland, the country which Stalin wanted to liberate before "the great patriotic war"?
Also it`s a country that attack Russia shoulder-to-shoulder with nazi in 41 and try to occupy Carelia, yes? Main aim of war with Finland was to escape such scenerio (nazi attack on St. Peterburg from finish territory). Preventive strike on fashist ally, no more, no less.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nice how you talk about countries that you occupied and practically enslaved for decades.
Very telling.
Originally posted by Fishu
Try to occupy carelia? Do you remember it was originally part of Finland. How is it possible to occupy own land in the way you're suggesting?
I don't either remember Finland being germans ally in winter war, in fact, Finland was covered in the ribbentrop pact as USSR's area.
Even in the continuation war the finnish troops barely moved over the pre-winter war borders, even when told by Hitler.
The evil finnish occupying forces... :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Raven_2
[to Boroda]
Борода, ты можешь перевести, что произнесла их чудесный и замечательный демократический президент о советских ветеранах?
[/to Boroda]
Originally posted by Fishu
You know, Finland, the country which Stalin wanted to liberate before "the great patriotic war"?
Originally posted by Staga
Fishu they wanted to occupy just half of the Finland and "liberate" other half.
They were such nice folks back then :)
Originally posted by Boroda
Finnish occupational forces performed genocide against non-Finnish/Saam population in Karelia and copied nazi "national policy" in Nort-Western Russia.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
to Toad
Maybe you tell us about "democratic Germany" in 39-45, that was occupied by USSR bastards just for fun, without any reason?
Originally posted by Raven_2
But why Russia is most offenly chosen?
Originally posted by Raven_2
And the Finland (and Poland, and many other countries) was the part of Russian Empire (1808 -1917, more then centuary). So how it was possible to occupy our own Finland in 1938? :-)
Originally posted by Fishu
Previous owner has no more any rights to the house.
Rage of Soviet troops was normal reaction on cruelity of faschist brutes.
Stalin is no more since 1953. And still there is lot of Russia-haters in the world. BTW, what about most agressive country of last 20 years, huh?
On 4 November 1956, Khrushchev ordered the Soviet army to invade Hungary. In the
fighting that followed, 7000 Soviet troops and 30000 Hungarians were killed
August 21 - 23, 1968
Angered by the Prague Spring reforms, Moscow orders Warsaw Pact forces to invade Czechoslovakia. Dubcek is sent to Ukraine, then in handcuffs to Moscow. An estimated 83 Czechs and Slovaks are killed across the country as Soviet tanks roll down Prague's historic streets.
The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December 1979. It was the last hot war it would fight, and one whose failure played a leading role in its loss of the Cold War and disintegration.
Originally posted by Raven_2
[BYou don`t answer on my question. If someone kills your wife and your son - what would you do? Sue this bastard or shot his brain out of his head?
[/B]
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
You don`t answer on my question. If someone kills your wife and your son - what would you do? Sue this bastard or shot his brain out of his head?
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
Nazi wasn`t barbaric. They were over-civilized, not barbaric. They thinked they are above all others. Americans now think the same...
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
I know only that polak nation is exist, and indian is no more. Numbers not equal? Bah. You slaughter/destroy *nation*, not bunch of people.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
ILOL 8-) Poland "defend" was already dead to 1943. Fight, huh... Sit on their tulips and waiting for help...
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
Nagasaki. Hirosima. 300.000 civilians killed. Japan military strengh was already destroed. But USA wanted to show the world they nuclear weapons. Bloody bastards...
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
... and still denie. Yeltsin was a pice of ****, not legitime president. This *****g bastard could say *anything* that West want to hear.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
... Free election in the country with destroed economics and infrastructure, with thousands of dead childrens... Sure, it was "liberation"...
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
And don`t you told me that Iraq now has free elections. There is no TV censoure for Iraq news in our country, like in yours, so we see what really happens with Iraq now.
So far, in the "war on terror" initiated since 9-11, the USA and its allies have been responsible for over 13,000 civilian deaths, not only the 10,000+ in Iraq, but also 3,000+ civilian deaths in Afghanistan, another death toll that continues to rise long after the world's attention has moved on.
Elsewhere in the world over the same period, paramilitary forces hostile to the USA have killed 408 civilians in 18 attacks worldwide (see Table 1). Adding the official 9-11 death toll (as of October 29th 2003) brings the total to just under 3500.
Originally posted by Raven_2
So there was an immigrants, not tourists, yeah? But then why you blame all russian for that? After they cross russian-finish border and became new finish citizien it`s your sht, not ours. Emigrants are ex-russians, no-more-russians for me. Bastards, that leave their former home in searching for "better life". There is no place for such bastards in my country, so emigration of such .. people .. is a good thing for our society, I suppose :-)
Originally posted by Raven_2
to mora
>>I don't think the immigrants really do any notable amount of stealing.
Um. Only russian do steal in the shops? Or other tourists as well?
Originally posted by Raven_2
don`t blame government for that.
Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, how many of american citiziens was killed by serbs kids?
Why don`t you say the same to USA? Is Hirosima has any sense?
And how many Afganistan people die for 9/11? All of them was terrorists? Including kids and womans?
For 21 year here there was no any criminal accidents. I wasn`t robed, beaten or something like that. It`s amyth.
In 90-95 criminals were everywere, like marauders at war
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Boroda
>>Прости, а ты кто? Я тебя знаю?
Нет. Увидел этот линк на опер ру. Зашёл. Почитал. Обсудил этот тред в теме о Второй Мировой на другом форуме, русском. Теперь, вот, решил помочь :-) Только пишу я по-английски плохо :-(
Originally posted by Toad
You fall back upon the same barbaric excuses for barbarism.
Yes, they were so outraged they became their enemy. The Soviet troops became as barbaric as the Nazis. And apparently were proud of that. Congratulations. And still you wonder why Russians have the reputation they have.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So it goes.. The official history and contradicting witness stories of the victims. Well, the ones that lived to tell that is.
From what I've heard the red army was the most feared enemy for the civillians.
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, again: official Soviet policy was shooting looters and rapists in front of their units.
It was the women, too, who suffered most when the Red Army arrived. The first wave of battle-hardened troops who fought their way into the city were, in general, well-disciplined and did not harm civilians, either men or women.
But these troops were speedily followed by second-echelon men, support unit soldiers many of whom had been prisoners of the Germans, or were criminals. 'We opened up our jails and stuck everybody into the army,' Stalin said, explaining why the Red Army could not be ideal. And these brutalized individuals more than made up for any restraint shown by those who had preceded them.
Every woman in Berlin, it seemed, regardless of age or beauty, was considered fair game. The grunted 'Woman, come' became the prelude to nightmare for thousands and thousands of Berlinerin, some of whom were raped over and over again. Some 90,000 women sought medical treatment as a result of being raped.
It is almost impossible to estimate how many others did not. There are countless examples, countless stories of women's experiences, of how they tried to escape, of the subterfuges they and their husbands used to try to avoid further assaults. Many of those who failed sought the ultimate solution by committing suicide....
...For nearly two weeks after the fall of the city, the Soviet authorities turned a blind eye to the sexual assaults, and to the looting and robbery that went on unchecked.
Clearly they believed their men deserved 'a little fun', as Stalin described it, after their years of fighting. Then, suddenly, the party was over: from 15 May, discipline was restored, and any Red Army man who stepped out of line was liable to be shot. The number of rapes was reduced, but they did not stop. The memory of that dreadful time still haunts the older women of Berlin today.
Source: Anthony Read and David Fisher, Berlin Rising: The Biography of a City (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1994).
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
So, you said, there is no Indian culture and indian nation at all, only "independent tribes", yes?
Americans don`t have cassete bombs at that time, I suppose. If you had it, you wiped out all indians in two weeks, yes?[/b]
Ouh. If this not happened, then brave polaks was stoped faschist invasion to USSR, yes? :-)[/b]
They surrender the day after![/b]
Japanese Coup d' Etat is hatched by War Minister General Anami's military staff. Principally: Colonel Arao, Lieutenant Colonel Take****a (brother-in-law to General Anami), Lieutenant Inaba, and Major Hatanaka.
The objectives of the coup are to kidnap the Emperor, confiscate his recordings of peace and keep the war going. The recording by the Emperor had become the key to war or peace. The Japanese, dedicated to fight to the death, could only be stopped by words from the Emperor....
...Major Hatanaka, and a Lt. Colonel thought to be Lt. Col. Mikasa, the Emperor's youngest brother, enter the Palace grounds and is joined by Colonel Haga, commander of the 2nd Regiment of the Imperial Guards Division. This Regiment had the responsibility of protecting the Emperor. Colonel Haga had agreed with Hatanaka that they should "protect" the Emperor from his traitorous peace seeking advisors. Hatanaka and Haga set up plans to intercept the Emperor and to insure that his recordings of peace are confiscated. (The 2nd Regiment has added an extra battalion so the Regiment numbers over 1000 soldiers).....
And you bombard CIVILIANS![/b]
[/b]If one president say this, others must accept this. Main rule of foreign politic.[/b]
Yeah, `till they have oil to pay you for repair destruction you did...[/b]
Yes, they exist. They even exist in election list. But they never be ellected till USA forces are in the country.[/b]
On 12 november 2003 there was 13500-45000 civil casualities.[/quote
All your sites count all people killed in Iraq and attribute all of the deaths to the US.
That's just BS. If a Sunni nutjob drives a car full of explosives into a Shiite funeral, those deaths should be placed on the religious nutjobs that caused them. Sure wasn't the US.
The list of direct action US related deaths is about 8000. Too many, but you may note there was a war.QuoteAmericans is the same level of barbarity as Saddam was. It`s by your own words.
Hardly, its a figment of your imagination and a willingness to use incorrect numbers.
M. D. Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual (1897): 30,000,000 Mexicans and Peruvians were slaughtered.
David Barrett, World Christian Trends: Conquistadors killed 15M Amerindians
Coe, Snow and Benson, Atlas of Ancient America (1986)
Total pre-Columbian population: 40M
Mexico: Original population of 11M to 25M ("lower figure commands more support") fell to 1.25M (1625)
Peru: Pop. fell from 9M (1533) to >500,000 (early 17th C)
Brazil: Original population of 2.5M to 5.0M ("recent commentators favoring the higher") fell to 1M
Massimo Livi-Bacci, Concise History of World Population History 2d (1996)
Mexico: Population fell from 6.3M (1548) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
Peru: Pop. fell from 1.3M (1572) to 600,000 (1620)
Canada: from 300,000 (ca. 1600) to < 100,000 (ca. 1800)
USA: from 5M (1500) to 60,000 (ca. 1800)
R.J. Rummel estimates that 13,778,000 American Indians died of democide in the 16th through 19th Centuries:
Total dead among native Americans in colonial era: 49.5M out of pre-contact population of 55M
Democides in this: 5M
Democides among Indians, post-colonial era: 8,763,000
Democides in US: 15,000
Skidmore & Smith, Modern Latin America (1997)
Mexico: Population fell from 25M (1519) to 16.8M (1523) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
Peru: from 1.3M (1570, forty years after Conquest) to <600,000 (1620)
Stannard, American Holocaust (1992): 100,000,000 deaths across time
16th Century death toll: between 60M and 80M
Panama, 1514-1530: 2M Indians killed
Mexico
Central: Population fell from 25.0M (1519) to 1.3M (1595)
SE: fell from 1,700,000 to 240,000
North: fell from 2,500,000 to 320,000
Peru, 16th C.: between 8.5M and 13.5M people destroyed.
Fredric Wertham, A Sign For Cain : An Exploration of Human Violence (1966): South American death toll of 15,000,000.
Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.
Bombing of Germany: 400,000 (Hammond); 410,000 (Rummel, 100% democidal); 593,000 (Keegan; also Grenville citing "official Germany"); 600,000 (P. Johnson)
Bombing of Japan:
Conventional: 260,000 (Keegan, P. Johnson)
Nuclear: 103,000 died outright (Keegan); 130,000 outright (Messenger);120,000 outright, 140,000 later (Our Times); 175,000 outright, 100,000 later (P. Johnson)
Total: 363,000 (Keegan, not including post-war radiation sickness); 374,000 (Rummel, incl. 337,000 democidal); 435,000 (P. Johnson); 500,000 (Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War)
Bombing of Romania & Hungary: 50,000 (Rummel)
Mistreatment of Axis POWs
James Bacque, Other Losses (1989) made the first accusation that Americans deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.
Bacque [http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/970920bacques.html]
Bacque's 2nd book, Crimes & Mercies, expands the body count to 9.3-13.7M Germans killed by the Allies after the end of the war, incl. some 2.1-6.0M civilians who died being expelled from the East. [http://codoh.com/review/revcrimes.html]
Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): official figures released under glasnost
Germans: 2,388,000 POWs taken, of which 356,000 died
Hungarians, Romanians, etc.: 1,097,000 taken, of which 162,000 died
Japanese: 600,000 taken, of which 61,855 died
[Total: 4,085,000 taken, of which ca. 580,000 died]
Soviet Prisoners of War killed:
Urlanis: 3,912,000
12 March 1995 Times-Picayune: nearly 3.5M
Our Times: 3,300,000
Rummel: 3,100,000
MEDIAN: 3.0-3.1M
Mazower, Dark Continent: 3M
Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 3,000,000
Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960): 2,000,000 dead and 1,000,000 never accounted for, presumed dead.
Britannica: 2,600,000
Anglo-American Allies:
<...>
Mistreatment of Axis POWs:
James Bacque, Other Losses (1989) made the first accusation that Americans deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.
According to the 21 March 1998 Times Union (Albany), the UN Food and Agriculture Organization estimated that 1,000,000 Iraqis, incl. 560,000 children, died as a result of malnutrition and disease caused by the international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait. The article mentions the use of these numbers by an official of the United Church of Christ, and also labels the figures "commonly used -- but also disputed".
Ramsey Clark: 1,500,000 including 750,000 children [http://www.twf.org/News/Y1997/Ramsey.html]
UNICEF: 500,000 excess child deaths (under-five) 1991 to 1998
Al-Thawra newspaper: 1.5M
Racism:
Just out of curiosity, I decided to calculate the death toll of racism in the United States, and it certainly looks like non-whites suffered 3,300,000 excess deaths from 1900 to 1970.
Sources: Throughout most of American history, non-whites have had a significantly higher death rate than whites. As there's no natural reason for whites to live longer than non-whites, the cause for this difference must be social -- rooted in poverty and manifesting itself in malnutrition, inadequate public health, substandard medical care, homicide, alcoholism, suicide and drug addiction.
If we subtract the number of non-whites who would have died anyway (even at a white death rate) from the number who did die -- year-by-year -- and then add it all up, we get our total number of excess deaths.
Because this is just my calculations -- not peer-reviewed or gathered from a reputable source -- I'll give you a lot of detail. My source for the raw numbers is Watenburg, The Statistical History of the United States (1976). As an example of my methods, consider this: in 1920, the death rate for whites was 12.6/1000, while for non-whites it was 17.7/1000. Now, if we multiply the non-white death rate by the estimated non-white population of 10,951,000, we find that there were approximately 193,833 deaths among non-whites in 1920. If they had died at the white death rate, however, there would only have been 137,983 deaths. Therefore, we've got 55,850 excess deaths caused by the socioeconomic handicap of not being white.
Decade by decade, here are the totals:
Decade Excess Deaths
1960s 65,000
1950s 200,000
1940s 300,000
1930s 535,000
1920s 630,000
1910s 735,000
1900s 835,000
TOTAL 3,300,000
[source:http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Racism]
Not The Enemy Media [http://nottheenemy.com/index_files/Death%20Counts/Death%20Counts.htm]
Killed through U.S. foreign policy since WWII: 10,774,706 to 16,856,361 (1945-May 2003)
Iraq, American Occupation (2003- )
[Relevant sources in chronological order]
May 28, 2003
Guardian: est. 13,500-45,000 Iraqi troops and paramilitaries KIA. ("may lie closer to the lower figure")
Project on Defense Alternatives (20 Oct. 2003).
Iraqi fatalities [http://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html]
Combatants: 9,200 ± 1,600
Non-combatants: 3,750 ± 550
Total: 12,950 ± 2,150
17 March 2004 NYTimes
Civilians killed in Iraq (during conquest, 20 March -1 May, 2003): acc2 ...
-Civic: 5000+
-Project on Defense Alternatives: 3,200 - 4,300
Iraqi Interior Ministry, preliminary figures: ca. 500 Iraqi civilians killed by Coalition forces during the occupation.
19 March 2004 NY Post
During conquest (19 March 2003-1 May 2003)
- U.S: 85 k
- Iraqi combatants: 13,000
- Iraqi civilians: 4,300
[TOTAL: ca. 17,400]
USA Today (1 June 2004): 37 Iraqi & Afghan POWs died in U.S. custody - 15 of them shot, strangled or beaten.
8 Sept. 2004 AP: 10,000-30,000 Iraqis k since war began, citing
-Amnesty Int.: 10,000 civ. k. in 1st year.
-Human Rights Organization in Iraq: 30,000
-Iraqi Health Ministry: 2,956 civilians k. nationwide, 5 Apr.-31 Aug. 2004
-Sheik Omar Clinic: 10,363 violent deaths in/around Baghdad since war began
-Iraq Body Count: 11,793-13,802
17 Sept. 2004 Christian Science Monitor: 700 Iraqi police k. since war's end.
Brookings Inst. [http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20040917.htm]
-U.S. troop fatalities in Iraq: 1,005
-Iraqi civilians k. April 30, 2003-July 30, 2004: 11,400-22,200
-Iraqi police k. since May 2003: 710
24 Sept. 2004 Knight-Ridder
"Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis - most of them civilians - as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry and obtained exclusively by Knight Ridder." [http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9753303.htm]
From June 10 to Sept. 10, 1,295 Iraqis were killed in clashes with multinational forces and police versus 516 killed in terrorist operations
28 Oct 2004: study in The Lancet medical journal estimates 98,000 extra deaths during the postwar period. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=206232 and http://www.tnr.com/blog/iraqd?pid=2240 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html]
28 Jan. 2005 BBC: Iraq's Ministry of Health, Official figures: 3,274 Iraqi civilians k: 2,041 by coalition and Iraqi security forces + 1,233 by insurgents (1 July 2004 to 1 Jan. 2005) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/4217413.stm]
8 Feb. 2005 CNN: "U.S. military believes it killed between 10,000 and 15,000 guerillas in combat last year", incl. ca. 3,000 in Falluja in Nov. 2004 [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.main/]
March 1, 2005 NY Times: >1,300 Iraqi security officers killed over the past 18 months or so.
3 March 2003 CNN
-U.S.: 1,502 d. incl., 1,147 in combat.
-Iraqi security forces: 1,450 KIA since September 2003, acc. to Pentagon.
-Overall number of Iraqis killed since the conflict began: 10,000 to 30,000.
ESTIMATED TOTAL KILLED (3 March 2005)
-USA, Coalition and contractors: 1,892 (ICasualties.Org)
-Iraqi military during invasion: 7,600-13,500 (Proj. Def. Alt., NY Post, Guardian)
-Iraqi insurgents: 10,000-15,000 (CNN)
-Iraqi security forces, post-invasion: 1,300-1,450 (NY Times,CNN)
-Civilians: 16,100-18,400 (Iraq Body Count)
TOTAL: ca. 37,000-50,000 k.
Afghanistan (2001- )
Military Deaths:
-21 March 2002 The Western Mail (Financial Times Information): 5,000-10,000 Taleban and al-Qaeda K,Wd or Cap. [Dead alone would be ca. 1/4 that, i.e. 1,250-2,500]
-14 Oct. 2002 Time: 5,000 Taliban and Al Qaeda KIA; 23 USAns.
-Iraq Coalition Casualty Count: 139 USAns (to 16 Oct 2004)
Atrocities:
-26 Aug. 2002 Newsweek: 960-1,000+ Taliban POWs k. by Northern Alliance
Indirect Civilian Deaths:
-20 May 2002 [London] Guardian: Max. war-related avoidable deaths: 49,600
-Remained at home, relief disrupted: 40,000 d. max.
-Refugee d. in camps: 1,600
-Refugee d. outside the camps: 8,000
-Of those, 60%-80% would have happened anyway, so 20%-40% US fault: 10,000-19,840 at max.
Direct Civilian Deaths:
-12 Feb. 2002 [London] Guardian: 2,000-8,000
-Marc Herold: 3,767 (Oct. 7-Dec. 6) [http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm]. Revised overall death toll (October 7 to February 6) is 3,000 to 3,600 [Guardian (London), 20 May 2002]
-14 Oct. 2002 Time: <3,000
-3 June 2002 LA Times: 1,067 to 1,201 civilian deaths (not incl. 497 deaths that were not identified as either civilian or military). Also cited:
-Relief officials with interim Afghan government: 1,000 to 2,000
-Herold: 3,050 to 3,500
Project on Defense Alternatives (18 Jan. 2002): 1,000-1,300 [http://www.comw.org/pda/0201oef.html]
11 Feb. 2002 AP: 500-600
Some officials of Human Rights Watch privately: 100-350 by Dec. 2001 [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0207-03.htm or http://wsjclassroomedition.com/tj_120401_casu.htm]
MEDIAN: 1,134-1,500
ESTIMATED TOTAL KILLED (12 Feb. 2005)
-USA: 23
-Taliban, Al Qaeda: 1,250-5,000 (Western Mail, Time)
-POWs killed: 960-1,000 (Newsweek)
-Northern Alliance: 500-2,000 (pure guess: @ 40% of opponents)
-Civilians: 1,134-1,500 (median)
TOTAL: ca. 3,900-9,500 k. to Summer 2002
Kosovo (1999)
NATO Bombing (1999):
9 Feb. 2000 Slate, civilian deaths
-Human Rights Watch: ca. 500; or specifically 488-527 ("confidently")
-Serb propaganda: 1,200-5,000 ("stubbornly")
HRW: 500 civ. [http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/02/nato207.htm]
14 June 1999 Time: 5,000 military + 1,200 civilian = 6,200
4 Dec. 2001 WSJ: 500, citing Wm Arkin [http://wsjclassroomedition.com/tj_120401_casu.htm]
5 July 1999 AP: 1,200 civilians, citing Yugoslav state-run media
Ploughshares 2000: 500 civilians
11 July 1999 Washington Post
-Official Serbian figures: 576 Serb military "casualties" (probably deaths)
-NATO estimates: 5,000 to 10,000 Serb soldiers dead
TOTAL: 1,600 civilians and 1,000 military "casualties"
Gulf War (1990-91)
Shortly after the war, the US Defense Intelligence Agency made a very rough estimate of 100,000 Iraqi deaths, and this order of magnitude is widely accepted -- even improved upon:
-B&J: 50,000 to 100,000
-Compton's: 150,000 Iraqi soldiers killed
-World Political Almanac 3rd: 150,000 incl. civilians.
-Our Times: 200,000.
Other authoritative sources working with more detailed data have come up with lower numbers:
The British govt. put the death toll at 30,000 (War Annual 6, 1994)
A May 1992 report by the US House Armed Services Committee estimated that 9,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed by the air campaign.
The PBS news show Frontline estimates 2300 civilians, 10-20,000 military in air war and, 10,000 military in the ground war; for a total of 27,300 ±5000.
29 April 1999 AP: 4,500 to 45,000
-Civilian death toll is put at 2,500 by US and 35,000 by Iraqis
-The US lost 147 killed in battle and 289 dead otherwise. The other Coalition members lost 92 dead.
Dict.Wars: 85,000 Iraqi and 240 Coalition soldiers.
Wm Arkin: 3,200 Iraqi civilians
Martin Gilbert:
Coalition
-USA: 145 k. in action and 121 k. in accidents.
-UK: 24
-Egypt: 10
-UAE: 6
Iraqis: at least 8,000 in battle, and 5,000 civilians
25 July 1991 The Gazette (Montreal), citing a Greenpeace report by Wm Arkin:
Iraqi
-Military: 100,000-120,000
-Civilian: 62,400 to 99,400 (87% of dis./mal. after fighting stopped)
-Post-war revolts in N + S Iraq: 30,000-100,000
-Kuwaitis: 2,000-5,000
Coalition
-US: 145 KIA + 2 mortally wd. + 121 in accidents = 268
-Allies: 77
TOTAL: 345
8 Jan. 1992 Interpress, citing a later Greenpeace report by Arkin:
Iraqis
-Military: 72,500-118,000
-Civilian: 2,500-3,000 in bombing + 49,000-56,000 from dis./mal in 1990-91
-Post-war revolts in N + S Iraq: 102,000-150,000 civilians & rebels + 5,000 Iraqi soldiers
16 Feb. 2003 Pittsbugh Post-Gazette
Iraqi soldiers killed
-Beth Daponte / William Arkin: 56,000
-Army War College: 10,000-20,000
-John Heidenrich / John Mueller: 1,000-6,000
Iraqi civilians killed
-Daponte / Arkin: 3,500
-Government of Iraq: 2,248
-Army War College: 1,000-3,000
-Heidenrich/Mueller: Fewer than 1,000
Indirect civilian deaths
-Daponte: 111,000
19 March 2004 NY Post
Iraqi soldiers: 40,000
Iraqi civilians: 2,300
Project on Defense Alternatives, 20 Oct. 2003
War dead
Iraqi civilians: 3,500
Iraqi military: 20,000 - 26,000
Post-war
Anti-regime uprisings: 30,000 civilians + 5,000 military
Health-related deaths: 60,000-100,000
MEDIAN
Direct civilian deaths: 2,625
Iraqi Soldiers: 25,000
Post-war
Health-related deaths: ca. 80,000
Uprisings: ca. 65,000 k., all sides, civ+mil
Panama, US invasion (1989)
B&J: 550
Chicago Tribune, 31 March 1993
The documentary, The Panama Deception, "asserts that thousands of civilians were killed".
However: "[N]o organization in Panama has been able to document more than the official estimates of about 500 deaths, including 300 civilians."
The Panama Deception: >4,000 civilians [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4078.htm]
Chomsky (1991), civilian deaths:
Official US: 202
Physicians for Human Rights + Americas Watch: 300
Exhumed graves: 600
NY Times, 1 Apr. 1990: 673
Costa Rican press citing human rights groups: >2,000
Joint delegation of CODEHUCA + CONADEHUPA: 2,000 - 3,000
Mexican press citing 2 Catholic bishops: 3,000
Marley
USA: 23
Pan. military: 297
Civilians: 500
TOTAL: 820
Our Times, citing Pentagon numbers
USA: 23
Pan. military: 57
Civilians: 459
TOTAL: 539
HRW: 300 civilians [http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/panama/]
War Annual 4
USA: 23
Panamanian military: 293
Civilians: up to 700
TOTAL: up to 1016
Washington Post, 11 June 1992
Official Pentagon death toll:
US: 23
Panamanian military: 314
Civilians: 202
TOTAL: 539
Panama Human Rights Commission:
Pan. military: 57
Civilians: 183
Undetermined: 83
Disappeared: 80
TOTAL: 403
AVERAGE (Civilian Death Toll) is 1,166.
Grenada, US invasion (1983)
USA: 18 (War Annual; Jan Rogozinski, A Brief History of the Caribbean, 1994) or 19 (Marley) or 42 (B&J)
Cubans: 24 (War Annual; Rogozinski) or 25 (Marley) or up to 70 (B&J)
Granadian military: 60 (War Annual) or 45 (Marley) or 16 (Rogozinski)
TOTAL: 250 (B&J) or 102 (War Annual) or 89 (Marley) or 68 (Rogozinski)
Vietnam War:
South Vietnam military
185,000 to 225,000 (Britannica)
220,357 (Lewy, Ency. Americana)
223,748 (Summers; also 3 April 1995 AP)
224,000 (Kutler, Olson)
250,000 (Clodfelter, Grenville)
254,257 (Wallechinsky)
650,000 (Small & Singer)
[MEDIAN: 224,000]
North Vietnamese military and Viet Cong
444,000 (Ency. Americana)
500,000 (S&S)
660,000 (Olson)
666,000 (Lewy, with the possibility that as many as 222,000 (1/3) of these were actually SVN civilians mistaken for VC)
666,000 (Summers)
700,000-1,000,000 (Wallechinsky)
900,000 (Britannica; Grenville)
1,000,000 (Clodfelter)
1,100,000 (Tucker, Official VN [1954-75])
[MEDIAN: 1,000,000]
South Vietnamese civilians
250,000 (Olson)
287,000 (Clodfelter = 247,600 war deaths + 38,954 assassinated by NLF)
300,000 (Kutler; Summers)
340,000 (Lewy's estimate, with the possibility that an additional 222,000 counted as VC (above) belong in this category)
430,000 (The Sen. E. Kennedy Commission, according to Lewy, Olson)
522,000 (Wallechinsky)
1,000,000 (Britannica [in both North and South]; Eckhardt; Grenville)
2,000,000 (Tucker, Official VN [N&S, 1954-75],)
[MEDIAN: 1,500,000]
North Vietnamese civilians: 65,000 (Kutler, Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky) by American bombing.
USA
47,378 KIA + 10,799 other = 58,177 (Official US DoD, 1964-73)
58,159 (Kutler)
58,153 (Wallechinsky)
58,000 (Britannica)
47,244 KIA + 10,446 other = 57,690 (Olson; Summers, 1961-80)
57,605 (Ency. Americana)
56,146 (Lewy: 46,498 KIA + 10,388 other + 719 MIA)
56,000 (S&S)
South Korea: 4,407 (Lewy, Olson, Summers); 4,687 (Wallechinsky); 5,000 (S&S)
Philippines: 1,000 (S&S)
Thailand: 351 (Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky); 1,000 (S&S)
Australia: 469 (Lewy, Summers, Olson [w/NZ]); 492 (S&S); 494 (Wallechinsky); 520 (AWM)
TOTAL
1,216,000 (military only, S&S)
1,312,000 (Summers)
1,353,000 (Lewy)
1,520,453 (WHPSI: S. Vietnamese only, 1965-75)
1,637,000 (Olson)
1,721,000 (Kutler)
1,749,000 (Wallechinsky)
1,800,000 (B&J, 1960-75)
2,058,000 (Eckhardt)
2,163,000 (Britannica)
2,500,000 (Grenville)
3,000,000 (1965-75, Chomsky (1987))
>3,100,000 (Tucker; Official VN)
[MEDIAN of TOTALS: ca. 1,700,000] or [TOTAL of MEDIANS: ca. 1,300,000]
Misc. Atrocities:
Lewy:
36,725 civilians assassinated by VC/NVA, 1957-72
2,800 civilians executed and 3,000 missing after Hue was captured by VC/NVA, 1968
400 civilians massacred by USAns in the area of Son My village, incl. 175-200 in My Lai hamlet, 1968
Because of the lack of weapons recovered from many bodies, Lewy considers the possibility that up to 222,000 VC KIA may have actually been innocent bystanders. (Or maybe not. Poor evidence either way.)
Harff & Gurr: 475,000 civilians in NLF areas were victims of repressive politicide, 1965-72
Young: Hue massacre, 1968:
Officially: 2,800-5,700
Len Ackland: 300-400
Chomsky (1987): 21,000 VC civilian officials assassinated under US/GVN Phoenix project (-in text. Endnote gives estimates ranging 40-48,000.). Lewy considers these to be (mostly) legitimate military targets.
October 22, 2003 Toledo Blade: Tiger Force (US) committed ongoing atrocities in Quang Nam province, July-Nov 1967. Incomplete records show 81 murders. The unit reported 1000+ enemies killed, but it sounds like a lot of those weren't legit. Rummel:
90,000 democides by South Vietnam:
1954-63: 39,000, incl. 24,000 dead in forced resettlement programs
1963-75: 51,000, incl. 30,000 executions
166,000 democides by NVN/VC in SVN:
Officials assassinated: 17,000
Civilians assassinated: 49,000
Refugees killed, 1975: 50,000
Misc: 50,000
....The massacre of more than 21,000 Polish officers and intellectuals by the Soviet secret police n 1940 was not genocide, Russia’s top military prosecutor said today.
“At Poland’s request, we thoroughly investigated these events,” Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov said in Moscow.
The order for the massacre was signed by Soviet leader Josef Stalin, among others. Soviet agents shot 21,768 Polish military officers, intellectuals and priests who were taken prisoner when the Soviet Union invaded.
Historians in Poland believe Stalin ordered the killings to liquidate Poland’s elite and hinder the rebirth of a sovereign Polish state....
Raven: died as a result of malnutrition and disease caused by the international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait[/b]
...I find the estimates for Virginia even more awkward because I live here. Stannard estimates the population of Powhatan's Confederation at 100,000, yet there's not a single site in the Virginia Tidewater that remotely hints at the complex infrastructure necessary to support even half this number.
There's not one ruin of any permanent building. Artifacts of any kind are rare -- barely even a single burial mound worth pilfering. And it's not like there's some forgotten ghost town deep in the desert or jungle waiting to be discovered. This is Virginia. It's been settled, plowed and excavated for 400 years....
Consider the Powhatans of Virginia. As I mentioned earlier, Stannard cites estimates that the population was 100,000 before contact.
In the same paragraph, he states that European depredations and disease had reduced this population to a mere 14,000 by the time the English settled Jamestown in 1607.
Now, come on; should we really blame the English for 86,000 deaths that occured before they even arrived?
<...>
"The attack upon Korea," Truman declared, "makes it plain beyond all doubt that communism has passed beyond the use of subversion to conquer independent nations and will now used armed invasion and war." An American advisor to South Korea's President Syngman Rhee, Robert T. Oliver, claimed, in contrast, that the United States itself had unwittingly provoked the attack, by declaring that South Korea lay outside our defense perimeter.
It must be noted, however, that armed struggle between North and South Korea had been going on since 1945, part of a Korean civil war, in which both the North and South were trying to unify the nation on their own terms.
Why did the United States become involved in the war? Domestic politics doubtless contributed to Truman's decision to intervene in Korea. His popularity had fallen sharply in the polls, and Republicans accused him of losing China to the communists.
<...>
Initially, America's objective in the war was to restore South Korea's border at the 38th parallel. But after a series of military victories over the North Koreans, an overconfident Truman launched a drive forward to liberate North Korea. Suddenly, a defensive war was transformed into an offensive war. The decision to carry the war into the North had momentous consequences. As Americans approached the Yalu River, Chinese intervened to prevent a perceived threat to Chinese security and proceeded to push Americans back to the 38th parallel.
The Korean war dragged on until 1952. The number of Americans killed in Korea - 54,246 - was nearly the same as in Vietnam, 56,146, but total casualties were actually higher in Korea: a million soldiers and two to three million civilians killed, compared to about one million in Vietnam.
"Little Boy," exploded over Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, killed 130,000 people immediately (including a dozen U.S. POWs) and 200,000 within five years, all but some 20,000 of them civilians. Twenty-five square miles of civilization were gutted.[1]
"Fat Man," detonated over Nagasaki three days later, took another 70,000 lives immediately, and nearly double that over five years. All but 150 were civilians. There was no pretense of a military target.[2]
That's 50 World Trade Centers of people vaporized. As a percentage of Japan's 1945 population of 72 million, it was equivalent to 200 WTCs.
<....>
1. The Committee for the Compilation of Materials on Damage Caused by the Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The Physical, Medical, and Social Effects of the Atomic Bombings, New York: Basic Books, 1981, p. 367.
2. Ibid., p. 345.
General Douglas MacArthur ordered that every "installation, factory, city, and village" be destroyed in much of the north. General Curtis LeMay reported that "over a period of three years or so ... we burned down every town in North Korea and South Korea, too."[4]
Three million civilians (from a Korean population of 30 million) died in that conflict, a large majority from American bombing.[5]
That's another 750 World Trade Centers dead, or 7125 WTCs as a percentage of population.
<...>
4. Both quotations are from Jon Halliday and Bruce Cumings, Korea: The Unknown War, NY: Pantheon Books, 1988, pp. 115-116.
5. Ibid., p. 200 (two million North Korean civilian deaths and one million South Korean). See also http://www.gliah.uh.edu/historyonline/con_korea.cfm (2-3 million civilian deaths).
We employed the same murderous tactic--widespread and sustained assaults on the civilian population--in the Vietnam War and its extensions in Cambodia and Laos. U.S. forces dropped eight million tons of bombs--four times the entire Allied total of World War II. Eighty percent were dropped on areas--so-called "carpet bombing"--rather than individual targets. The region was immolated with 373,000 tons of napalm, dwarfing the 14,000 tons employed in the second world war.[6]
All told, we subjected the people of Indochina to 15 million tons of munitions with the combined explosive power of 600 Hiroshima-type atomic bombs. The result? A decade-long crime against humanity that killed another two to three million civilians.[7]
In the same part of the world, we supported the Indonesian generals who presided over the slaughter of a million of their people after a failed October 1965 coup attempt. The killings of alleged Communists and their families raged for months. The country's rivers became clogged with bodies.[8]
The U.S., however, was euphoric. Time magazine described the generals' ascension as "the West's best news for years in Asia," while the Johnson administration, according to the New York Times, expressed "delight."[9]
<...>
6. James Carroll, "The Shameful Context of Kerrey's Killings," Boston Globe, May 1, 2001 (citing Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing, NY: New Press, 2001). Online at http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0501-02.htm.
7. Civilians killed: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9507-memories.html (two million civilians killed in Vietnam; 600,000 in Cambodia). All munitions: http://www.vietnam25.org/cost-of-war-f.html (citing Paul Shannon, "The ABC's of the Vietnam War," Indochina Newsletter, Asia Resource Center, Special Issue 93-97, 1996.
8. One million killed: Indonesia: An Amnesty International Report, London: Amnesty International, 1977, p. 12-13 (probably many more than one million people killed, while Indonesia admitted 500,000). John Stockwell, The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order, Boston: South End Press, 1991, p. 72-73 (New York Times estimated 0.5 to 1.5 million killed; Australian secret service estimated 2 million killed; the CIA estimated 800,000 killed). Some general sources on the slaughter: http://www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0915-Indonesia.html. http://dannyreviews.com/h/The_Indonesian_Killings.html. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,530478,00.html.
9. Both quotations are from Malcolm Caldwell, "Lest We Forget," p. 16, in his edited collection Ten Years' Military Terror in Indonesia, Nottingham, U.K.: Spokesman Books, 1975 (citing the July 15, 1966 issue of Time, and an article by Max Frankel in the March 12, 1966 issue of the New York Times).
Originally posted by Toad
I love you guys.
The peace-lovink pipples of North Korea invaded South Korea to raise Truman's popularity!
You guys are SO funny!
As I said, the difference between you and us is that you cannot admit some of the things you did and you will never apologize. You always have some Bullshirt excuse.... the Finns get to see it real clearly in this thread.
If only those Master Race Finns had not attacked the poor peace lovink pipples of the Soviet Union and tried to drive all the way to the sea of Okhotsk with their giant Finnish war machine!
:rofl
Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.
Савенков отметил, что российская сторона не признала и не признает факта "геноцида польского народа", передает "Интерфакс".
"В ходе предварительного следствия по инициативе польской стороны проверялась версия о геноциде, и мое твердое убеждение - говорить об этом правовом явлении нет никаких оснований", - заявил Савенков на пресс-конференции. "Нет и не было геноцида польского народа в тех действиях, которые исследованы в рамках этого дела", - сказал Савенков.
Савенков сообщил точные данные о количестве интернированных и расстрелянных польских офицеров и гражданских лиц.
"По данным, полученным в ходе расследования, в том числе и от украинских, белорусских и польских коллег, всего на территории бывшего СССР содержались 14542 человека. Установлена гибель 1803, из которых 22 идентифицированы", - сказал Савенков.
Он уточнил при этом, что на территории современной России содержалось 10710 граждан Польши, а на территории Украины - 3832.
Originally posted by Toad
The peace-lovink pipples of North Korea invaded South Korea to raise Truman's popularity!
You guys are SO funny!
As I said, the difference between you and us is that you cannot admit some of the things you did and you will never apologize. You always have some Bullshirt excuse.... the Finns get to see it real clearly in this thread.
Originally posted by Toad
If only those Master Race Finns had not attacked the poor peace lovink pipples of the Soviet Union and tried to drive all the way to the sea of Okhotsk with their giant Finnish war machine!
:rofl
The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, also known as the Hitler-Stalin pact or Nazi-Soviet pact, was a non-aggression treaty between Germany and Russia, or more precisely between the Soviet Union and the Third Reich. It was signed in Moscow on August 23, 1939, by the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. The non-aggression treaty lasted until Operation Barbarossa of June 22, 1941, when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
to Toad
"international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait". If there was no USA-Iraq conflict than all of this people stay lived. Read more carefully.
[/b]
Savenkov said only that thet were not genocide if you read carefully. Numbers are from journalists head. History books (and NKVD archives) contain number 4.500.
Soviet propagandists blamed the killings on the Germans, however, and only in 1990 did President Mikhail Gorbachev admit that the Soviet NKVD secret police had been responsible.[/b]
Russian investigations into the case dragged on for over a decade, ending inconclusively last year. Savenkov put the final Katyn death toll at 14,540.
Poland has decided to open its own probe, but says it has been hampered by delays in handing over case documents, two-thirds of which Russia has refused to declassify.
Yeah. Sorry. I mean USA territory, not country. So there wasn`t USA who killed the indians. It was other civilized people from Europe.[/b]
Sure, there is no medics in reservation... It`s like don`t give them food and than say "They die from starving, not by our hands".[/b]
The Mandan prospered and grew powerful up to 1772. Their remaining history is summed up in their own tradition as related to Lewis and Clark and Maximilian. Formerly they lived happily and prosperously in nine large villages on the Missouri near the mouth of the Heart River. Six or seven of these villages were on the west side and two or three were on the east side of the river.
For a great many years they lived there when one day the smallpox came to those on the east side of the river. The survivors then proceeded up the river some forty miles where they settled in one large village. After the smallpox reduced the villages on the west to five, the five went up to where the others were, in the neighborhood of some Arikara, and settle in two villages.
A great many Mandan had died and they were no longer strong and fearless. They made an alliance with the Arikara against the Sioux. All this happened before 1796 and is chronicled in Henry and Schoolcraft. Lewis and Clark found the two villages one on each side and about fifteen miles below the Knife River. Both villages consisted of forty to fifty lodges and united could raise about three hundred and fifty men.
[/b]
Sure, I accept. 4.500, not 24000, PoWs were murdered in Katyn by NKVD. But YOU still refuse even > 300.000 sensless deaths in Hirosima, not to mention millions of deths in Korea and Vietnam.
7 April 2000[/b]
Russian President-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned President Kwaњniewski mid-week to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave thought to contain the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the Second World War. Putin invited Polish authorities and other interested parties to participate in an investigation into this recent discovery, but no other details (or numbers) were released. The grave was found near Smolensk, close to Katyn, where some 4000 Polish officers lay.
Between 15,000 and 21,000 were executed in April and May of 1940, following the Soviet invasion, but most of the bodies have never been recovered. The Katyn massacre, as the event is known, has long served as a symbol of Soviet crimes against Poland.
My Lai (My Lie :-)) - 300 deaths. There were > 2.000.000 civilians killed in Vietnam cause of USA agression. You accept THIS?
Originally posted by Raven_2
>>Since the only alternative would have been war, which it eventually did, it's hard to say.
So, see any difference?
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Angus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
>>The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact <...> was a non-aggression treaty between Germany and Russia
>>Since the only alternative would have been war, which it eventually did, it's hard to say.
So, see any difference?
Originally posted by Fishu
...and then we again get to the point where the evil finnish in alliance with germans are not so allied with germans:
"Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party."
Originally posted by Boroda[/b]
Toad, "allied" countries sold poor Czechs, and USSR was the ONLY country that offered assistance. Poland stabbed Czechs in the back in 1938, allied with Hitler and took a significant part of Czechoslovakia.
The day before the meeting between Hitler and Chamberlain was held, Maxim Litvinoff, the Soviet Union's Foreign Minister, addressed the League of Nations in Geneva. Litvinoff accused Britain and France of avoiding a problematical war today in return for a larger war later.
He declared that the Soviet Union's "War Department is ready immediately to participate in a conference with representatives of the French and Czechoslovakian War Departments to discuss measures appropriate to the moment." Russia, it seemed was ready to meet her obligations with the Czech government.
On Thursday, September 29, the four powers, Germany, England, France and Italy met in Munich to decide the fate of Czechoslovakia. After about eight hours, an agreement was signed. The joint paper in effect still stated that Germany would take over the Sudetenland, but more slowly.
On October 1, German troops would come in to occupy the most German areas. Then each day additional movements would take place under jurisdiction of the four powers who would determine just how much territory was to be ceded. The less German areas would hold a plebiscite to determine if they want to stay a part of the Reich. Additional settlements were made over claims from Hungary and Poland.
Also I advise you to finaly read something about USSR-UK-France talks in Moscow in August 1939. So-called "allies" failed to come to an agreement with USSR against Hitler,[/b]
Tell me please, after "allies" arrogantly refused from allience with USSR - what, in your opinion, we had to do?
The 'secret additional protocol' declared:
"1. In the event of a territorial and political transformation in the territories belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) the northern frontier of Lithuania shall represent the frontier of the spheres of interest both of Germany and the USSR. . .
2. In the event of a territorial and political transformation of the territories belonging to the Polish State, the spheres of interest both of Germany and the USSR shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula and San".
Savenkov decline fact of genocide of poles by soviet troops. There were only 14.542 Poland PoWs in USSR. 1803 of them died. 22 was identified.
During 1938, the Soviet Union (as well as France) offered to abide by their defensive military alliance with Czechoslovakia in the event of German invasion, but the Czechoslovakian Agrarian Party was so strongly opposed to Soviet troops entering the country that they threatened a civil war might result if they did. The 1935 agreement between the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and France stipulated that Soviet aid could only come to Czechoslovakia if France came to their aid as well.
The reticence of the western democracies to form an anti-fascist alliance with the USSR, and France and Britain's pact with Hitler signed at Munich, was indicative of a lack of interest from the side of the West to oppose the growing fascist movement, already exemplified by the events of the Spanish Civil War.
Originally posted by Boroda
This stuff you quote contradicts itself. Vilnus was not a part of Lithuania in 1939. Northern border of Lithuania - did you buy yourself a map as I advised you?...
This "secret protocols" stuff is funny. Noone ever saw originals.
<...>it was necessary to enter into a non-aggression pact to buy time since the Soviet Union was not in a position to fight a war in 1939, and needed at least three years to prepare. <...>
Biographers of Stalin point out that he believed the British rejected his proposal of an anti-fascist alliance because they were plotting with Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union, and that the western democracies were expecting the Third Reich to attack "Communist Russia" and were hoping that the Nazi forces would wipe out the Soviet Union — or that both countries would fight each other to the point of exhaustion and then collapse. These suspicions were reinforced when Chamberlain and Hitler met for the Munich Agreement.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
And what about mexiacans and color-skinned people?
That mean that USA has nothing to do with starved to death people in Iraq?[/b]
Yeah, and now Shock and Awe is "just just about the entire civilized WORLD"[/b]
It`s your imagination, Savenkov didn`t say this. Again, you can tranlate article by yourself, there a lot of translators in internet.[/b]
Then Putin invition is illogical.[/b]
And nazi burn ukrainian people (that wasn`t surrender) on wartime too. They did the right thing?[/b]
Again, there were only 20.1500 soldiers and 379.850 civilians in Hirosima and Nagasaki. Why then you didn`t drop nuclear bomb on Bahdad?[/b]
Just before midnight on 09 August, Japanese Emperor Hirohito convened the supreme war council. After a long, emotional debate, he backed a proposal by Prime Minister Suzuki in which Japan would accept the Potsdam Declaration "with the understanding that said Declaration does not compromise any demand that prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as the sovereign ruler."
The council obeyed Hirohito's acceptance of peace, and on 10 August the message was relayed to the United States. Early on 12 August, the United States answered that "the authority of the emperor and the Japanese government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers." After two days of debate about what this statement implied, Emperor Hirohito brushed the nuances in the text aside and declared that peace was preferable to destruction. He ordered the Japanese government to prepare a text accepting surrender.
In the early hours of 15 August, a military coup was attempted by a faction led by Major Kenji Hatanaka. The rebels seized control of the imperial palace and burned Prime Minister Suzuki's residence, but shortly after dawn the coup was crushed.
>>Korea: You claim US "aggression". You again show your ignorance. What client state of the Soviet Union invaded South Korea on June 25, 1950 ?[/b]
USA forces was in Korea since 1945, if you don`t know.
>>Which side did the Soviet Union fight on? Who invaded? Who were the aggressors?[/b]
USA, till 1945.
Drop a link, please. If these documents exist not only in your mind.[/b]
>>USA aggression? Did the USA invade North Vietnam[/b]
USA kill at least 65.000 civilians due to bombarding.?
>> Your good friends the VC and NVA killed more civilians in the South than the US by a good margin.[/b]
So, you don`t reject that USA actualy kill civilians in Vietnam, yes?
[/b]
>>See, after the Munich Pact the Allied countries of Europe DID NOT stab Poland in the back
Sure, they stab Czechoslovakia.
Sure, treaty about CZ and others were open, there were no secrecy, it`s a normal to give one country to faschist without even ask for czech opinion on that. It`s like the civilized world almost work.[/b]
You right. There were whole Erope treachery of CZ. There were conspiracy of dividing Poland. Moraly it`s the same things.
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia denied on Friday that the 1940 execution of 15,000 Polish prisoners of war by Soviet secret police was genocide, dismaying Poland's chief war crimes investigator and chilling already frosty bilateral relations.
Poland has long pushed for Moscow to bring to account the perpetrators of the Katyn massacre, with victims' families and prosecutors calling for the killings to be treated as genocide.
A conclusion of genocide could have been a first step towards prosecutions. Russian investigators closed their case last year without pressing any charges.
"The version of genocide was examined, and it is my firm conviction that there is absolutely no basis to talk about this in judicial terms," Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov told a news conference.
"There is not, and was not, genocide committed against the Polish people ... in this case," Savenkov was quoted by the RIA Novosti news agency as telling reporters.
Poland's top war crimes investigator reacted with dismay, saying Russia had put politics before justice.
"The Russians have decided a priori that Katyn wasn't genocide," said Leon Kieres, head of the Institute of National Remembrance. "The problem is that politics are getting into legal and historical issues.
The Katyn row further strains relations between Poland, a newly-assertive member of the European Union, and Russia, which in its former guise as the Soviet Union dominated Poland for five decades.
President Vladimir Putin chided Poland for backing Ukraine's "Orange Revolution", and this week Poland's Foreign Ministry called the killing of Chechen separatist leader Aslan Maskhadov by Russian security forces a "crime".
DOCUMENTS KEPT SECRET
The mass shootings of interned Polish officers followed the 1939 partition of Poland by Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin at the start of World War Two.
Nazi Germany later reneged on the pact, invading the Soviet Union in 1941. Advancing forces found thousands of bodies in mass graves in the Katyn forest, near Smolensk, western Russia.
Soviet propagandists blamed the killings on the Germans, however, and only in 1990 did President Mikhail Gorbachev admit that the Soviet NKVD secret police had been responsible.
Russian investigations into the case dragged on for over a decade, ending inconclusively last year. Savenkov put the final Katyn death toll at 14,540.
Poland has decided to open its own probe, but says it has been hampered by delays in handing over case documents, two-thirds of which Russia has refused to declassify.
"The Russians are still causing a lot of problems in handing over the documents. We still haven't received them," said Kieres.
"We know that there were at least 2,000 people who commited this crime," he added, appealing to Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski to intervene. "Now it is up to the politicians to take a step. To be tough on this issue."
(With reporting by Natalia Reiter in Warsaw.)
Originally posted by Toad
Not EXACTLY what history records, is it?
Originally posted by Toad
Now Poland, unlike the SU, did not invade Czechoslovakia, attack her troops and murder the POW's. Poland did indeed grab a piece of the pie when Czechoslovakia was divided up amongst the wolves. Certainly not an admirable thing, but also certainly not open warfare and murder either.
Originally posted by Toad
Let's examine this historically as well. The talks, USSR-UK-France , began in Moscow on 12 August. Marshal Kliment Voroshilov, told the delegates that unless Soviet troops were permitted to enter Polish territory it was physically impossible for the Soviet Union to assist Poland and it would be useless to continue discussions.
Originally posted by Toad
This point was never resolved before the Anglo-French-Soviet negotiations were negotiations were adjourned indefinitely on 21 August -- after the Soviet government had decided to sign the non-aggression pact with Germany. So the talks broke down over pre-deploying Soviet troops in Poland.
Originally posted by Toad
Now, the SU and Nazi Germany were talking in August as well.
Originally posted by Toad
Looks to me like the SU was playing both sides and took the best deal. The Allies wouldn't let them put Soviet troops in Poland... the Germans INVITED them to do so.
Originally posted by Toad
Who refused? The deal was done except Stalin wanted his armies in Poland. There was no problem with an alliance except this one. What would the SU have said if France and Britain wanted to put 250,000 men in the USSR?
Originally posted by Toad
What you could have done is NOT make an agreement to divide Poland with the Nazis. You could still have a non-aggression pact with the Nazis. You did not have to add the secret protocol:
Originally posted by Fishu
This can be as well the web sites authors fault, since I quickly googled it.
I don't recall any advises for buying a map.
Originally posted by Fishu
Secret protocols... I guess they just split Poland for the joy of it and there was never any intentions to liberate the baltic countries, which conveniently happened.
Baltic republics were admitted to join USSR after a legitimate democratic procedure.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
:eek:
:rofl
Originally posted by Boroda
Baltic republics were admitted to join USSR after a legitimate democratic procedure. Sorry, but it is a fact. Another example of Great Democratic Values that many Western people religiously worship. Please think about it.
On August 1, 1944, with the Russian forces on the right bank of the Vistula, the Home Army rose in Warsaw; the Warsaw Rising. Heroic street-fighting involving the whole population, using the sewers as lines of communication and escape, under heavy bombardment, lasted for 63 days. The city was completely destroyed. Not only did the Russians cease to advance but they also refused to allow Allied planes to land on Russian airfields after dropping supplies. After surrendering many civilians and soldiers were executed or sent to concentration camps to be exterminated and Warsaw was razed to the ground.
The defeat in Warsaw destroyed the political and military institutions of the Polish underground and left the way open for a Soviet take-over.
With the liberation of Lublin in July 1944 a Russian-sponsored Polish Committee for National Liberation (a Communist Government in all but name) had been set up and the British had put great pressure, mostly unsuccessful, on the Government-in-exile to accept this status quo. At Yalta, in February 1945, the Allies put Poland within the Russian zone of influence in a post-war Europe. To most Poles the meaning of these two events was perfectly clear; Poland had been betrayed. At one stage the Polish Army, still fighting in Italy and Germany, was prepared to withdraw from the front lines in protest; after all, they were supposed to be fighting for Polish liberation. It is a reflection on Polish honour that no such withdrawal took place since it could leave large gaps in the front lines and so was considered too dangerous for their Allied comrades-in-arms.
The war ended on May 8th, 1945.
The Cost:
The Poles are the people who really lost the war.
Over half a million fighting men and women, and 6 million civilians (or 22% of the total population) died. About 50% of these were Polish Christians and 50% were Polish Jews. Approximately 5,384,000, or 89.9% of Polish war losses (Jews and Gentiles) were the victims of prisons, death camps, raids, executions, annihilation of ghettos, epidemics, starvation, excessive work and ill treatment. So many Poles were sent to concentration camps that virtually every family had someone close to them who had been tortured or murdered there.
There were one million war orphans and over half a million invalids.
The country lost 38% of its national assets (Britain lost 0.8%, France lost 1.5%). Half the country was swallowed up by the Soviet Union including the two great cultural centres of Lwow and Wilno.
Many Poles could not return to the country for which they has fought because they belonged to the "wrong" political group or came from eastern Poland and had thus become Soviet citizens. Others were arrested, tortured and imprisoned by the Soviet authorities for belonging to the Home Army.
Although "victors" they were not allowed to partake in victory celebrations.
Through fighting "For Our Freedom and Yours" they had exchanged one master for another and were, for many years to come, treated as "the enemy" by the very Allies who had betrayed them at Teheran and Yalta.
Originally posted by Fishu
Of course it didn't have anything to do with the gun pointed at them.
Originally posted by Fishu
You know, like in the case of Finland, which suddenly became a threat and all of the sudden decided to start a war against the soviet union, while having no allies.
Originally posted by Boroda
Suddenly?! Soviet offers on trading Karelian Isthmus for money and several times more land in Russian Karelia came long time before the White-Finnish war began. No allies?! UK and France = no allies?
Originally posted by Boroda[/b]
I don't see any difference. I also want you to enlighten me about "open warfare and murder" between Poland and USSR in 1939. I need to read some stories about great battles between brave Polish warriors and evil Soviets, with blood and gutters all over the border.
There existed between Poland and the Soviet Republic a pact of non-aggression dated July 25,1932, which on May 5, 1934, was extended until December 31, 1945
On August 27 Izvestia published an interview with Marshal Vorosilov who stated that the new understanding with Germany would not prevent Russia from supplying raw materials and even war materials to Poland...But complete tranquillity reigned in the Eastern Provinces of Poland. Mobilisation had taken place under normal conditions and perfectly smoothly; all public authorities were functioning without interruption...
....In any event, the entrance of the Russian troops was such a surprise, not only to the population but also to the civil and military authorities, that in many places it was thought that the Bolsheviks had entered Poland as allies against Nazi Germany.
Sorry, but by Sept, 16th, Poland was only a "geographical concept". Sad but true.[/b]
Polish border defences forces (Korpus Ochrony Pogranicza) in the east (about 25 battalions) were unable to defend the border and were ordered by Edward Rydz-Smigly to fall back. This however did not prevent some clashes and small battles.
The Soviet invasion was one of the decisive factors that convinced the Polish government that the war in Poland was lost. Prior to the Soviet attack from the East, the Polish military plan called for long-term defence against Germany in the southern-eastern part of the Poland (near the Romanian border), while awaiting relief from an attack on the western border of Germany by the Western Allies. Facing two powerful enemies - Nazi Germany and Soviet Union - the Polish government decided that it was impossible to carry out the defence on Polish territories and ordered all units to evacuate Poland and reorganize in France.
How did they expect USSR to help Poland against Germany without entering Polish territory?[/b]
[/b]2) Leave Poland alone, let nazis seize it all and have nazi army at the gates. Also that meant leaving Baltic states to nazis and having them 100km from Leningrad in case of war. Definetly not the best decision.
So - we had to give up land that was so vital in 1941[/quote
The land you stabbed Poland in the back to get cost the Nazis about one day to take in Barbarossa. Vital? Pfffft.
You'd have done better to let the Nazi have all of Poland, realize the threat and actually prepared to meet them at your borders.
Originally posted by Fishu
Yeah well, it was a democratic decision to turn down the offer. Whats the problem with that? It was our democratic fault not to get the benefit of offered money and several times more land.
It still doesn't give a reason to attack, it was a democratic decision after all, like you like to say in the case of the baltic republics.
Originally posted by Fishu
I don't recall any pacts with UK and France, other than buying off outdated equiptment and getting some antique for free. Like french machineguns which were so unfit for battle that even in the lack finns didn't use those in the frontline duty.
and of course some talks about sending UK reinforcements to Finland, which is debated to be just an excuse to secure *cough*occupy*cough* swedish ore mines and deny it from the nazi-Germany.
Originally posted by Boroda
Yes, it was a decision of your democraticaly-elected government. But one totalitarian leader, a general of evil Imperial Russian army warned this government and said in advance what will happen... The "democratically-elected" government didn't listen, and killed thousands of it's citizens only to agree to pre-war offers in a hurry, when a predicted defeat became obvious...
True advantages of Democracy on parade!
You already said that "allies" planned a landing operation to help Finland. Alles were: France, UK, and... drumroll!!! Polish government in London!!!
Originally posted by Fishu
The Lithuanian SSR ceased to exist. Vytautas Landsbergis became the head of the state and Kazimiera Prunskienл led the Cabinet of Ministers. On March 15 the U.S.S.R. demanded revocation of the act and began employing political and economic sanctions against Lithuania as well as demonstrating military force. Lithuanians, inspired by their government, protested against Soviet actions by using peaceful means and not trying to use some extreme or gun shifts. On January 10, 1991, U.S.S.R. authorities seized the main publishing house and other premises in Vilnius and attempted to suppress the elected government by sponsoring a so called National Salvation Committee.
. [/B]
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So what you're saying basically, Boroda, is that in fear of the allied landing on finland, Soviet union had to attack it in order to protect the best interest of its (then)current ally, nazi Germany.
On August 27 Izvestia published an interview with Marshal Vorosilov who stated that the new understanding with Germany would not prevent Russia from supplying raw materials and even war materials to Poland,
Originally posted by Suave
Hey somebody finally captioned my pic. Yeah, USSR figured the world was too busy in the persian gulf in 1991 to notice if they pulled another annexation. But thankfully it failed. Oh well the soviets got to kill some Lithuanian police and run over protesters with tanks and break into TV stations and shoot the occupants. Just like old times.
Originally posted by Suave
Thankfully a great man named Yeltsin soon became president. He would decry the invasion of lituania as barbarism, he was awarded the 13th of January medal for this. Another great thing he did was to ban the communist party from elections. Thanks to great men like him, some day Russia will rise from the rubble that was the criminal organization called the USSR. An organization that inflicted more darkness and grief onto humanity than any other.
Originally posted by Toad
So, you stabbed Poland in the back and gained... nothing except shame.
Originally posted by Suave
BTW how many countries did the soviets steal or try to steal? We'll exclude russia since that's a given.
Latvia,Estonia,Poland,Hungary,Afghanistan,Lithuania,Finland,Ukraine
There's so many, I can't remember them all at once. Help me out guys.
Originally posted by Boroda
I like a term you used, "steal". Steal from allmighty US of A? A nation chosen by god? :lol
Originally posted by Toad
I think you should reread what I posted.
The Poles may not have wanted Soviet troops to cross their territory when a German invasion was only a possibility. After the Germans actually invaded, they may have changed their minds, no?
Originally posted by Toad
IF you read what I posted, the Poles at first though you Soviets WERE coming to help fight the Germans.
Remember this?
,
Lied to them and fooled them, didn't yas?
Originally posted by Toad
Secondly, the USSR gained little if anything at all by taking Poland... except endless shame... as it made no difference when Barbarossa jumped off. They kicked your axes all the way back to Moscow in short order. The only thing that saved Moscow was Hitler-the-putz deciding to delay Barbarossa for 4 weeks in order to deal with a relatively minor situation in Yugoslavia.
So, you stabbed Poland in the back and gained... nothing except shame.
Originally posted by Fishu
Even though Finland survived independent through the USSR's liberation attempts, it isn't a state of the US of A or it's puppet.
Neither is Estonia, after it regained its rightful independence, this time through a truly democratic decision. Democracy, which they hadn't forgot during the couple decades of totalitarian occupation.
The people of Estonia finally regained back that what was forcefully taken from them, apparently by a "democratic" decision in the history books of the USSR.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's more like steal from humanity Boroda.
If you are a representative of this "humanity" - I cancel my membership.
Originally posted by Suave
Anybody else see that old TV footage when Nixon went to moscow and met with Kruschev in front of an audience. To expo some of our advanced western technology that wasn't yet available in the USSR. You know, like electric kitchen appliances, and deoderant. And Kruschev made an bellybutton out of himself on TV before the world with his defence of fiegned laughter.
BTW how many countries did the soviets steal or try to steal? We'll exclude russia since that's a given.
Latvia,Estonia,Poland,Hungary,Afghanistan,Lithuani
a,Finland,Ukraine
There's so many, I can't remember them all at once. Help me out guys.
<...>death toll of racism in the United States <...> 3,300,000 excess deaths from 1900 to 1970.
Originally posted by Raven_2
But that wese THEIR OWN choice.
It were not country, but part of Russia/USSR from 1721 to 1991, 180 years.
On June 27, U.S. president Harry S. Truman, without asking Congress to declare war, ordered United States forces to come to the assistance of South Korea as part of the UN "police action."
The United Nations, with the United States as the principal participant, joined the war on the side of the South Koreans, and the People's Republic of China eventually came to North Korea's aid. After exceptional vicissitudes, the war was ended inconclusively in July 1953; it established a precedent for United States intervention to contain Communist expansion.
The Soviet delegate, who was absent from the Security Council in protest against the UN's failure to admit the People's Republic of China, was not present to veto the council's decision.
The negotiations dragged on for months, until after the U.S. presidential elections in the fall of 1952 and the victory of Dwight D. Eisenhower, who had criticized the unpopular war and announced his intention to visit Korea if elected. Eisenhower secretly informed the North Koreans and Chinese that he was prepared to use nuclear weapons and would also carry the war to China if a peace agreement was not reached.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Again, russians fight for they right to exist in Great Patriotic War/WWII and all other europian countries prefer to became german slaves. *That* is the main difference between us, Fishu.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Siaf__csf
BTW, North Korea officialy called something like Korean social-democracy republic. So, formaly, there is democracy in NK :-) This means good life for them? :-)
The National Archives in Washington, (D.C.) contains an official document called the Weekly Prisoner of War and Disarmed Enemy Forces Report for the week ending Sept. 8, 1945. It shows that 1,056,482 German prisoners were then being held by the U.S. Army in the European theater, of whom 692,895 were still classified as POWs (Prisoners of War) and the other 363,587 as DEFs (Disarmed Enemy Forces.)
This latter designation was illegal under international law and completely contrary to the Geneva Convention, to which both the United States and Germany were signatories. A German soldier designated DEF had no right to any food, shelter, or water in fact, to anything. Quite often he did not receive even the basic necessities of life and died within days.
In the first week of September 1945, 13,051 of the 363,587 Germans died and were listed cryptically as "other losses." This was the equivalent of a death rate of 3.6% per week. At such a rate, all the remaining 350,536 DEFs would have been dead within 28 weeks before the end of the approaching winter.
As for the 692,895 German soldiers still falsely listed as POWs, the last of them had actually been transferred from POW to DEF status a month earlier on August 4, by order of General Eisenhower. Their death rate quickly quadrupled within weeks, from .2% to .8% per week. Assuming the latter rate for the week ending September 8, about 5,543 of the so-called POWs listed in the report as being alive and in American hands had died that week - all would have died within just over two years.. (The reason this death rate was lower than 3.6% weekly for the longer-term DEFs was simply that the barbaric treatment of the DEFs was cumulative, and that some of the American troops refused to go along with this barbaric treatment.) I recall the winter of 1945, when I was on occupation duty in Japan. A similar order came from our local U.S. military commander who was known for his hatred of all Japanese. It did not come from MacArthur's headquarters in Tokyo. We were not allowed to give food of any kind to Japanese civilians, although many of them were on the verge of starvation. I was commanding a detachment of 28 men, which were guarding a Japanese Quarter Master dump at the little town of Niski'ya'hama, about eighty miles south of Osaka. Food in this storehouse was literally spoiling, yet we were not allowed to share it with the Japanese people. For Christmas rations that year, my detachment received eight sheep carcasses and 28 turkeys, with no refrigeration for storage. Rather than see this food go to waste, I shared it with the starving population, and when word leaked out, I came very close to being court marshaled. It was only the intervention of a high ranking officer from MacArthur's Headquarters which saved me.
A dark page in American history are the "Rheinwiesenlager", large prison camps containing some 557.000 German POW's. USA officials already admitted that there were 3.053 deaths within three months after it was set up, German investigations came up with 4.537. Needless to say who is right. This camp got away with a mere blink from Eisenhower, just like Patton ('a good German is a dead German'), he hated Germans. The men were left to starve in the mud, there was no shelter of any kind, thousands of soldiers perished. (source: ("Wissenschaftliche Kommission fьr deutsche Kriegsgefangenengeschichte", Mьnchen 1962-1973, 15 books and 2 supplements)
Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things: a social and economic system, an ideology which supports that system, or a political movement that wishes to implement that system.
As a theoretical social and economic system, communism would be a type of egalitarian society with no state, no privately owned means of production and no social classes. In communism, all property is owned by the community as a whole, and all people have equal social and economic status. Theoretically, human need or advancement is not left unsatisfied because of poverty, and is rather solved through distribution of property as needed. This is thus often the system proposed to solve the poverty cycle.
Perhaps the best known maxim of a communist society is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." This economic model is also referred to as a gift economy.
As a political movement, communism is a branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through various things - such as, for example, the communist desire to establish a gift economy, and their commitment to revolutionary strategies for overthrowing capitalism.
Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the Earth. Seventeen percent believe the Earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
• "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping.
"Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its work-force in the 1980s. ... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1%" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.
Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40% of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.
Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate.
"Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).
Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).
Under such a system, legislative decisions are made by the people themselves or by representatives who act through the consent of the people, as enforced by elections and the rule of law.
In practical effect, this definition generally comes with qualifications and limitations. In most modern democratic nations, for example, the set of citizens who can exercise these powers through voting are restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older. A further qualification is that, realistically, in elections, decisions are not made by the whole of "the people," but rather by most of the people who actually participate.
The word democracy originates from the Greek δημοκρατíα from δημος meaning "the people", plus κρατειν meaning "to rule", and the suffix íα; the term therefore means "rule by the people." The term is also sometimes used as a measurement of how much influence a people has over their government, as in how much democracy exists. Anarchism and communism (as in the final stage of social development according to Marxist theory) are social systems that employ a form of direct democracy, and have no state independent of the people themselves.
Well, there were 0% voiting people in USSR, so our standarts of living were much higher the in USA. according to your words :-)
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, the graves are there and they have Poles with 9mm holes in the back of their heads.
Originally posted by Fishu
Do they have multiple parties? are people able to create new parties?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Raven first you must understand the very basics such as 'democracy' can never co-exist with the 'dictatorship' or 'totalitarian.'
If a country is one of the latter, it's not a democracy and by far not democratic.
It's not my fault if communism is nowadays a synonyme for evil dictatorships and oppression.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Borodas every post is about his denial of the obvious.
Originally posted by Raven_2
so, communism IS democracy :-) LOL :-) I love this sophistic magic of definitions :-)
And when Europe fight with communism, they fight with democracy :-) And USA was biggest democracy-hater in the world :-) LOL :-) Magic transformations :-)
Raven, Siaf will probably think that Greek letters you used are Chinese
But other international experts, including the one from
neutral Switzerland, as well as the Polish Red Cross, established
beyond any doubt the time of the execution -- between April 4 andMay 13, 1940. Evidence found in the pockets of the victims --such as diaries, unsent letters and Soviet newspapers -- and
forensic tests confirmed the date. In all, 4,143 bodies were
positively identified.
The victims at Katyn were buried in greatcoats and boots which were in perfect condition. Had they been alive doing heavy road construction work for another year and a half, from April 1940 until September 1941 as claimed in this Report, these articles would have shown severe wear.
And, of course, the victims would have sent and received correspondence for another eighteen months. The 15,000 victims had thousands of relatives and friends in Poland yet nothing was heard from them after April 1940; no letter or postcard written by any of these men after that date has ever been produced. All mail sent to them after April 1940 was returned by the Russians marked "Return to Sender – Gone Away." The Russians admitted responsibility for the Katyn shootings in November 1989.
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, do you take other nazi propaganda lies without doubt?
Originally posted by Boroda
It's a report about Polish prisoners in USSR. 14.54 thousand people, 1803 dead. What did you say about our General Prosecutor?... As usual - you give me links to sources that say things absolutely opposite to what you tell me.
Originally posted by Toad
No.
The Russians admitted responsibility for the Katyn shootings in November 1989.
Originally posted by Fishu
Thats interesting, considering that about one third of finnish PoW's died in captivity. According to Dmitri Frolov, finnish PoW's were relatively privileged (=should count as lower death rate).
Somehow I find it weird that out of 14,540 poles only 1,803 died in captivity. Do you know that could be considered world wide quite low death rate in captivity during the WWII? Only 12.4%.
In the prisoner camps, majority of deaths were caused by starvation and diseases. Thats nothing country specific.
If the frontline troops had trouble getting enough food, it is natural that the prisoner camps have even less.
Originally posted by Boroda
So what? If Gorby admitted it - it means only that Groby admitted it. He was considered a looney and a yap even at that time.
Originally posted by Toad
Maybe it's a language barrier or something.
Originally posted by Stang
What does that have to do with denying the painfully obvious truth?
Originally posted by Stang Btw, I smell a shades account.
Originally posted by Nekto
Boroda said it is quite likely that it were Germans who commited the Katyn massacre, and I would agree with him.
But last week, the Russian Embassy in Warsaw told Polish prosecutors that Moscow would hand over only 67 out of 183 Katyn files.
Foreign Minister Adam Rotfeld said Poland would not accept Russia’s decision and suggested he felt Moscow has something to hide.
Savenkov confirmed that Russia was withholding 116 files from Polish investigators on grounds of secrecy.
Originally posted by Toad
As for defending it, denying a proven fact is a form of defense.
The most corrupt media in are in democratic Italy. I suppose :-) Berluskoni owns all of themAnd Putin controls all your mass media directly or indirectly. Whats the difference? There have been numerous alarming reports of the suppression of press in your country (a step back in development). You say there's no soviet era reports anymore. Did you just rewrite history or (perhaps) all that information comes still from the same source? Did your country somehow fix the errors in history _afterwards_? Come on. A fabricated lie is a fabricated lie and it stays written. It won't change no matter how pure your system is today (which it is not even now). You know of all the places I've traveled, Russia is the only place where I could bribe a police officer with $10. If I tried in most other countries they'd slam me in jail.
Originally posted by bikekil
Sounds like a something to hide? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Raven_2
But now europian police found links between Yukos and mafia in Italy. Italy police payed by Putin too?
Originally posted by bikekil
Netko, when Russia decided to be a successor of a Soviet Empire...
«Была ли неизбежна англо-французская капитуляция в Мюнхене? Блефовал Адольф Гитлер или нет? Теперь мы знаем ответ на оба вопроса. Как это ни парадоксально, но в обоих случаях он отрицателен. Все генералы, близкие Гитлеру, которым удалось пережить войну, соглашаются с тем, что если бы не Мюнхенское соглашение, то фюрер напал бы на Чехословакию 1 октября 1938 года. Они полагают, что вопреки сомнениям Лондона, Парижа и Москвы Англия, Франция и Россия все равно оказались бы втянуты в войну.
И, что особенно важно, немецкие генералы в один голос заявляли, что Германия проиграла бы эту войну, причем в кратчайшие сроки. Аргументы защитников Чемберлена и Даладье — а их в то время было подавляющее большинство — насчет того, что Мюнхен спас Запад не только от войны, но и от поражения в войне, в частности, спас Лондон и Париж от полного разрушения в результате варварских бомбардировок Люфтваффе, опровергают по двум последним пунктам те, кто знал положение дел лучше остальных, а именно сами немецкие генералы, особенно те, кто фанатично поддерживал Гитлера до самого конца.
Ориентиром для этих генералов служил Кейтель, беспредельно преданный Гитлеру и всегда принимавший его сторону. Когда в Нюрнберге его спросили, какова была реакция немецких генералов на подписание Мюнхенского соглашения, он ответил:
«Мы были необычайно счастливы, что дело не дошло до военного столкновения, потому что... всегда полагали, что у нас недостаточно средств для преодоления чешских пограничных укреплений. С чисто военной точки зрения у нас не было сил брать штурмом чехословацкую оборонительную линию».
Военные эксперты союзников всегда считали, что немецкая армия прорвет рубежи чешской обороны. К показаниям Кейтеля, который утверждает, что все обстояло не так, нужно добавить свидетельство фельдмаршала Маннштейна, ставшего впоследствии одним из крупнейших и талантливейших немецких военачальников. Когда он в свою очередь давал показания в Нюрнберге (в отличие от Кейтеля и Йодля ему не грозил смертный приговор), то на вопрос о немецкой позиции по поводу Мюнхена ответил: «Если бы началась война, то ни наша западная граница, ни наша польская граница не могли быть защищены должным образом. Не вызывает сомнений, что если бы Чехословакия решилась защищаться, то ее укрепления устояли бы, так как у нас не было средств для их прорыва».
Йодль, считавшийся «мозговым трестом» ОКВ, пытаясь оправдаться в Нюрнберге, сформулировал это следующим образом: «Несомненно, что пять боевых дивизий и семь резервных, находившихся на нашей западной границе, которая представляла собой всего лишь огромную строительную площадку, не смогли бы сдержать натиска ста французских дивизий. С военной точки зрения это невозможно».
Если, как утверждают эти генералы, гитлеровской армии не хватало средств для прорыва чешских укреплений, если французские войска на западной границе значительно превосходили по численности немецкие, что делало ситуацию «непредсказуемой с военной точки зрения», если настроения среди генералов были столь мрачными, что даже начальник генерального штаба готовил заговор против Гитлера, чтобы избежать безнадежной войны, то почему об этом не знали генштабисты Англии и Франции? Или знали? А если знали, то как случилось, что главы правительств Англии и Франции принесли в Мюнхене в жертву жизненные интересы своих стран? В поисках ответа на эти вопросы мы сталкиваемся с тайной мюнхенского периода, которая до сих пор не раскрыта. Даже Черчилль, особенно скрупулезный в военных вопросах, едва касается этой темы в своих объемистых мемуарах». (Ширер У. Взлет и падение Третьего рейха. Т. 1. М.: Воениздат, 1991. С. 460–461.)
Originally posted by Raven_2
And admitting of victory in Great Patriotic War and one of the main roles in freeing world from faschism are empty phrases for you too?
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Nekto
>>Ideologocaly Russia is not a successor of the Soviet Union at all.
bikekil said the truth, Nekto. Russia formaly is successor of Soviet Union. He talk not about ideology, but about official status. Russia inherit all of USSR debts and so on.
Про мнение о СССР - показалось, видимо. А что такое виф2не?
Originally posted by Raven_2
And admitting of victory in Great Patriotic War and one of the main roles in freeing world from faschism are empty phrases for you too?
Originally posted by Raven_2
Populace of Karelia didn`t see any differ between finnish and nazis also. The only differ was that finnish were much more brutal.
>>Both are something which could have passed the existance in the history.
Both of this still exists. Communism in China/NK/Cuba/... and faschism in Latvia.
LOL 8-) "to loose" is equal "to liberate" according to my dictionary. Maybe you mean "to lose"?
In any case, your government chose to attack USSR with/like nazi in 1941. You country made an act of agression to Soviet and there was retribution for this.
So, you think that German invasion was, generally, a good thing and nazi weren`t such a bad fellows, yeah? They only tried to stop "communist invasion in Europe", yes?
Originally posted by Nekto
The problem is that it's not a proven fact. How do you think was it proven? Was there a trial or so?
Originally posted by bikekil
Do you think we should ask anyone else then Russia about it? Who it could be then? Please enlight me.
Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, did you know than there were more than 145.000 deaths in Okinava in 1945? What the reason?
Originally posted by Nekto
Ask Germany for example. There are two accused guys - Germany and USSR, you know. Above I gave you a hint why Russian gvt don't want to show the documents but you are saying it's not your business. Why do you ask then?
Originally posted by bikekil
Oh.. .the Germans... hmm... asking Marsians could also help.. meybe they seen something from the spaceship and now could help?
From 1941 to 1944, the Luftwaffe flew 17 sorties in the Smolensk area, some of which included the Katyn Forest. There, recorded on film, were “snapshots” of the area taken before, during, and after the German occupation.
In one series of photographs taken in April 1944, discovered by Poirer and reexamined by Maliszewski, the German cameras caught the Soviets removing bodies from mass graves and bulldozing the ground to cover up evidence of the crime.
Maliszewski later found more burial sites using US intelligence satellite imagery and up-to-date maps based on satellite imagery that were provided through the good offices of Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser to President Carter, who was sympathetic to the project.
Originally posted by Toad
The only way to make yourself look even more foolish would be to tell us all that the sun rises in the West.
>>90,000+ reported rapes
Reported to whom?
Based on contemporary hospital reports and on surging abortion rates in the following months, it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin.
One woman remembered hiding in the loft of her apartment block, ready to jump out of the window if she was detected, whilst her best friend was being gang raped by Soviet soldiers in the apartment below.
Originally posted by Nekto
When someone become personal that means man has no any argument and therefore losts a dispute. :D
Based on contemporary hospital reports and on surging abortion rates in the following months, it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin.
Originally posted by Toad
Denial is your problem, not mine.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
to Toad
And only US was tried to increase it by bombarding peacefull cities.
So, if Soviet troops would killed 170.000.000 of german civilians in addition to 10.000.000 soldiers - you wouldn`t blame they for it, yes?
And where you found word "Soviet" here, Toad? According to this fragment, soviet troops raped only one woman.
Originally posted by Nekto
So what about Burdenko commission?
Originally posted by Nekto
Toad
It's just funny. Seems you even do not understand what a foolish situation you desribe:
1. Leaders (Yetlsin, Gorbachev and Putin) admited and 'supplied the evidence'.
2. At the same time they 'refuse to release 2/3 of the records it has on Katyn.'
And then you ask 'If the Burdenko commission wasn't a cover up, why refuse to release the records? '
I wonder if westerners have a logic at all. Don't you see a contradiction???
Originally posted by Toad
Suppose you explain it then, Netko.
Your last three leaders admit the NKVD murdered the Poles. They have so far released 1/3 of the records but refuse to release all records.
Originally posted by Toad
So, if you are right, why are not all records released? Would it not prove Soviet innocence if your Burdenko report is valid?
Originally posted by Toad
From all other evidence available, including the photo reconnaissance of the area matched up with satellite imaging, there's no doubt the NKVD murdered the Poles in the minds of any rational observer.
While conducting research on Katyn at the Archives in spring 1990, a Polish-American art and antiques expert named Waclaw Godziemba-Maliszewski was given a copy of an article entitled "The Katyn Enigma: New Evidence in a 40-Year Riddle" that had appeared in the Spring 1981 issue of Studies in Intelligence.
It was written by CIA officer and NPIC analyst Robert G. Poirier, who used imagery from Luftwaffe aerial photoreconnaissance during World War II to uncover evidence of the original crime and a Soviet coverup during 1943-1944. 16
The imagery, selected from 17 sorties flown between 1941 and 1944 and spanning a period before, during, and after the German occupation of the Smolensk area, was important evidence. Among other things, it showed that the area where the mass graves were located had not been altered during the German occupation and that the same area displayed physical changes that predated the Germans' arrival. [/b]
It also captured the NKVD on film bulldozing some of the Polish graves and removing bodies. Poirier speculated that the corpses had been removed and reburied at another site.
From 1941 to 1944, the Luftwaffe flew 17 sorties in the Smolensk area, some of which included the Katyn Forest. There, recorded on film, were “snapshots” of the area taken before, during, and after the German occupation.
In one series of photographs taken in April 1944, discovered by Poirer and reexamined by Maliszewski, the German cameras caught the Soviets removing bodies from mass graves and bulldozing the ground to cover up evidence of the crime. Maliszewski later found more burial sites using US intelligence satellite imagery and up-to-date maps based on satellite imagery
Originally posted by Raven_2
>>There IS no comparison, no matter how many people died in the bombing.
So, 17/1 ratio is normal for you. You know, all of the *civilized* countries try to reduce civilian dethrate in war. And only US was tried to increase it by bombarding peacefull cities.
Originally posted by bikekil
Toad,
it's pointless :)
Originally posted by Toad
YOU and BORODA however continue to DEFEND THIS ATROCITY.
Originally posted by Boroda
Me?! Defending this atrocity?!
I said, slowly and two times: I don't know. I see a small possibility that Soviet side killed poor Poles, that contradicts all the evidence and Burdenko commission report, and if USSR is responsible - I can't do anything else but apology. Sincerely.
Originally posted by Toad
LOL... the captured LW photos are indeed credible sources, especially when they correlate with other evidence. Except to those desperate to deny the truth, of course.
Originally posted by Toad
Kind of funny the Soviets would dig up the graves AFTER the Burdenko Comission report in 1944 isn't it?
Originally posted by Nekto
I cannot believe in Nazi sources. Maybe they deliberatelly changed dates and such. Nazi source is not independent one.
Originally posted by Nekto
I cannot believe in Nazi sources.
They shoot it only 17 times (in case it's truth).
And what?
Originally posted by Toad
I'm starting to feel sorry for you instead of only laughing at you.
Originally posted by Fishu
At least he can speak english in the first place.
and so do I.
Originally posted by Raven_2
And how you can see graves in the forest this way?
The bombing of Dresden by the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) between February 13th and 15th, 1945 remains one of the most controversial events of World War II, even after 60 years.
Although the Allies considered Dresden (the capital of the German state of Saxony) a military target, several historians regard Dresden more as a cultural landmark than anything else and assert that the number of civilians killed was excessive to a criminal degree.
According to British historian Frederick Taylor:
The destruction of Dresden has an epically tragic quality to it. It was a wonderfully beautiful city and a symbol of baroque humanism and all that was best in Germany. It also contained all of the worst from Germany during the Nazi period. In that sense it is an absolutely exemplary tragedy for the horrors of 20th Century warfare . . .
Günter Grass, the German novelist and Nobel laureate for literature, and Simon Jenkins, the former editor of The Times, have both referred to the Dresden bombing as a "war crime". The historian Max Hastings said in an article subtitled 'the Allied Bombing of Dresden': "I believe it is wrong to describe strategic bombing as a 'war crime', for this might be held to suggest some moral equivalence with the deeds of the Nazis. Bombing represented a sincere, albeit mistaken, attempt to bring about Germany's military defeat". Harald Jaehner, a German literary critic stated: "Look at the bombing of Dresden, which was really an assault on the civilian population."
Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, president of Genocide Watch, wrote, "The Nazi Holocaust was among the most evil genocides in history. But the Allies' firebombing of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also war crimes - and as Leo Kuper and Eric Markusen have argued, also acts of genocide".
Some of the critics of the bombing of Dresden argue that there should have been prosecutions brought against RAF Bomber Commander Arthur Harris, and even Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. These critics argue that if Japan and Germany had won the war, bombings like that of Dresden would certainly have been prosecuted as a war crime. They argue that bombing of German cities was intended as a deliberate strategy to terrorize the German people not only to win the war, but also in preparation for the post-war occupation. In fact, no alleged war crimes of the Allies were ever tried after World War II.
The purpose of the area bombing of cities was laid out in a British Air Staff paper, dated September 23, 1941:
The ultimate aim of an attack on a town area is to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death.
The bombing of Dresden, while it was one of the more devastating conventional attacks of the war, was part of a policy of leveling cities and breaking the civilian ability to resist. That destruction of civilian morale was the intent of area bombing is not under dispute: the doctrine of destroying civilian morale through bombing, an extension of Karl von Clausewitz who argued that total war's aim was to break the opponent's will, was also approved in principle by the American Joint Chiefs of Staff CCS 166/1/D, 21 January 1943, and formally inaugurated in June of 1943.
65 years ago about 22,000 Polish military officers, intellectuals and priests, who had been detained in the former Soviet Union in 1939, were shot by Soviet agents in the Katyn forest, 18 kilometres from Smolensk.
Originally posted by Nekto
There were no anything simmilar commited by Soviets ever.
Originally posted by Fishu
Yup yup... :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Nekto
Did you speak, sir? Wold you like to give me an example when Soviets commited an organized mass killing with mass graves like in the Katyn, please?
Originally posted by Nekto
Toad
At first blush it's another idle speculation of another Polish author.Quote[/b]
LOL. Deny, deny, deny. Hardly idle speculation; Katyn happened the recce photos are of Katyn... photo intel is NOT "idle speculation".QuoteShooting tens of thousands of bound POWs and intelligentsia in the back of the head is murder.QuoteAgreed.[/b]
Good... you're half way there. Now you just have to come to grips that the NKVD did it.QuoteThe problem with Katyn is that it's a TYPICAL crime for Nazi.
Thank you! You are absolutely RIGHT. Katyn is a TYPICAL NAZI CRIME.... that was committed by the SOVIETS.
More realization for you; good luck with the rest of your recovery.
Originally posted by Staga
Toad give up already; some people just aren't able to handle truth about their history.
Originally posted by Toad
I'm sure there will be another opportunity. I don't think the Poles will give up; they will eventually get all the records from the Russians. Sooner or later the Russians will have to come to grips with the fact that they butchered prisoners just like the Nazis did.
Sooner or later they will have to come to grips with the fact that they conquered and oppressed half of Europe.
Sooner or later, they'll realize they became their enemy.
Bye for now.
Originally posted by Toad
Luftwaffe photos correlated to later US satellite imagery that shows the graves.
Originally posted by Raven_2
You talk about Katyn for only one purpose - to expose russians like barbaric nation.
But you already forgot about crimes maded your nation, Toad. Sure, now you would deny all of I said before.
One more exapmle - Abu-Grey. Still you repeat all of your BS about "it`s a war and civilians mass killings/torture in prisons is usual (for US) during a war"?
Originally posted by Toad
Sooner or later they will have to come to grips with the fact that they conquered and oppressed half of Europe.
Sooner or later, they'll realize they became their enemy.
Bye for now.
Originally posted by Staga
Toad give up already; some people just aren't able to handle truth about their history.
Originally posted by Boroda
Now Finland refuses to pay compensations to Soviet prisoners who survived in concentration camps in Karelia. Very nice. Your whole "history" consists of denying obvious facts. Sorry.
Originally posted by mora
If we do will you give Carelia back to us?
Originally posted by Boroda
http://www.prokarelia.com ???
Remember a treaty signed in Helsinky in 1975? About borders in Europe?
I feel that Finns are sane people, very similar to us, and we can do together well, but - you can't get Karelian Isthmus in any way. It's our land. Damn, I spent my childhood summers in Privetnenskoye, at the place where the ruins of fort Ino are...
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I think finland paid quite large sums of compensation to soviets after the war already. For a war it didn't even start.
I guess that's soviet definition of fairness. Goes right along with compensation for concentration camps that never existed.
Maybe if the soviets would compensate every finn who suffered/died in the gulags before/during/after the war with an equal sum, that would be a good idea.
Originally posted by mora
As far as I'm conserned you can keep that wasteland. The 1918-1939 border was mostly what it had been historically. You accepted the borders in 1918 and over 20 years later you got different thoughts, and stole a big chunk of land from us.
Originally posted by mora
Even if your claims are true you shouldn't really expect anything from us.
Compensation to Finns who "who suffered/died in the gulags before/during/after the war" will be unnoticable even for Russian state budget. More money will be spent to find such Finns.
Stole? Vyborgskiy uyezd was a part of Russian Empire before 1809. Who stole it - it's a big question.
So you deny genocide of Soviet population
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
There will probably be way more than similarly treated russians. To me it looks like another attempt to rob finnish property on the same excuse.
Do people demand reparations from store owners in your country if they have to go to jail after breaking in? :rofl
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
You're not genocided yet. I still hear whining.
Another silly little **** insisting on genocidig Russians as a nation...
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Dont preach to me boy.
Russians started the war and nobody's yet seen any compensation for that or the casualties caused by your attack - or the material damages caused. Or warcrimes committed by your troops.
Untill those are fixed you are entitled to speak again, not a second before.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Youre the one even mentioning the whole WORD. You're not genocided which is painfully obvious at this stage. In fact, nobody has ever even tried that if you count out Hitler.
There's only one place where those camps and so called genocide exists, fabricated lies.
Come with a sword - die by the sword
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda so you agree that you needlessly attacked finland and are guilty for the escalation of the war?
Thank you.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
This didn't cross your troops minds when they attacked finland in 1939?
Your selective history is getting quite boring. You admit no responsibility to anything you've done but expect full reparations to every _alledged_ happening from the opposite side.
You're a sad victim of a brainwash, I really never wished to see anything like I've seen on this thread so far. Now I'm really cautious towards you guys.
then it's a crime when Finns kill Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Jews and other Soviet people, starving them in concentration camps only because they don't belong to Finno-Ugric nations. In Russian language it's called fascism. And the fact that they got kicked out of occupied lands and surrendered isn't an excuse for genocide[/b]
Originally posted by Boroda
It's a fact. They got compensation for Karelian Isthmus in 1940, several times more land in Karelia, plus money for renting Hanko...
Moving the border Westward was dictated by the strategic necessities of Leningrad's defence. With better diplomacy that might have been done without a war. USSR offered equal areas for exchange.
Originally posted by Nekto
Luckily not all Finns are so brainwashed.
The only reason of this"wastedump" was constant threat of attack from "democratic" countries side. So all resources goes on military needs
Originally posted by Raven_2
To finish guys. What mean "Kommunismi tappaa enemman kuin syopa!"? This is from this Jakko guy post.
Пытаться доказать иностранцам что мол «мы не козлы, козлы не мы», дело нужное но по моему опыту, почти бесполезное, вроде как доказывать нашим, что союзники они тоже воевали. А пытаться доказать что не только СССР расстреливало и казнило, в корне неверный подход. Всячески дави (давай на ты ладно?) на преступления нацизма, все обвинения в наш адрес отметай с порога, иначе получается вроде «ну все воруют, а я что хуже».
Если среди оппонентов есть американцы совсем просто, делаешь скорбное лицо и спрашиваешь – « что происходило на острове Окинава, с 20 марта по 20 июня 1945 года, конкретно, куда исчезло 150 000 человек гражданского населения, это, не считая военных.» Ещё про «трагедию отряда лилий», девочек санитарок школьного возраста спросить можно, что бравая морская пехота с ними сделала?. Бомбардировка Токио напалмовыми бомбами и то ли 20000, то ли 300000 погибших. Продолжающаяся оккупация – жаль обычно на таких форумах японцев нет, а то тут тебя бы поддержали морально.
С жителями балтийских стран разговаривать бесполезно, они глухие и слепые.
Европейцы просто продолжают боятся до усрачки, поэтому многие предпочитают оппонентов американцев, они как не странно лучше образованны, в смысле что историю хотя бы США помнят, и нет истерических ноток, типа «ой, злой русский на форуме»
Вообще главное их между собой поссорить, а то не устоять перед коллективным напором,
Например, напомнить, как в 44 сбитых американских лётчиков водили по центру Парижа и как французы поливали их помоями, в прямом смысле, что бы задобрить немцев. Напомнить, что Польше обещали, обещали помощь в случае нападения Германии, но так ничего и не сделали. Как советское правительство неоднократно предлагало Англии и Франции союз, и о такой вещи как «Мюнхенский сговор» когда Чемберлен фактически разрешил напасть на Чехословакию, но об этом ты уже говорил.
Есть ещё пара нюансов. Во первым всем глубоко плевать на «подвиги народа справа», у всех свои герои, и свои войны, так что старайся избегать фраз вроде «если бы не мы, то где бы вы были», если разговор идёт с бывшим союзником, то можно невзначай так заметить, «а хорошо вы им под Арденнами всыпали», совсем хорошо будет если обидятся присутствующие немцы, тут уже можно будет самоустраниться и наблюдать за грызнёй.
Второе – есть такая вещь как внутренние дела страны и определение термина, военные преступления. И Катынь это не их собачье дело, это уж точно. А единственное, что всегда попадает под определение военное преступление, это массовое, планомерное и намеренное уничтожение гражданского населения, военнопленных, и раненных. Остальное это так, максимум излишнее применение силы.
У вас там даже круче чем мне казалось:))) даже к дорогам цепляются что нечестно... Перечитал своё письмо, извиняюсь за учительский тон типа «как надо вести дискуссию», как то нехорошо вышло. Присоединиться вряд ли получится, уж очень погано я английский знаю. Но попытаюсь подсобить чем могу.
Постараюсь по порядку о том что знаю, многое ты уже вероятно знаешь.
Финская война. Советское правительство, видя явное сближение Финляндии и Германии, попросило у финнов уступить острова Гогланд, Сескар, Лавенсари, Торсари, и Лойвисто, а также сдать в аренду на тридцать лет порт Ханко, что бы построить там военно - морскую базу с береговой артиллерией что бы прикрыть доступ в Финский залив. Мы хотели отодвинуть финскую границу на Карельском перешейке настолько, что бы Ленинград оказался вне зоны обстрела финской тяжёлой артиллерии. Эти изменения были таковы что не затрагивали линию Маннергейма. Предполагалось также уточнить границу в районе Петсамо (Печенега). В обмен советское правительство предложило районы Реболы и Порайопори. Даже в соответствии с финской «Белой книгой» - это дополнительная территория в 5525кв.км. в качестве компенсации за уступку 2760кв.км.
Объективный анализ показывает что эти предложения были составлены с целью обеспечить большую безопасность территории России, не нанеся ущерба Финляндии. Но им хотелось повоевать.
И после того как мы вдребезги разнесли «абсолютно неприступную» оборону, наши требования были очень умеренны.
Справедливости ради замечу что финны во время ВОВ отказались замыкать второе кольцо окружения вокруг Ленинграда, отказались принять немецкие дивизии на своей территории, Карельский перешеек был самым спокойным местом на фронте, что породило анекдот во всей Европе есть только две невоюющие армии королевская шведская и 23 советская.
Насчёт того что выборы у нас недемократичны, по конституции Америки (тут я могу правда ошибаться) один и тот же человек может избираться на пост президента 2 раза. Франклин Рузвельт избирался на это пост четыре раза подряд, и умер будучи президентом. Чем не диктатор?. У нас в России как минимум 4 крупные партии. «Носители демократии» обходятся двумя, причём практически одинаковыми. Вопрос на экзамене чем отличаются консерваторы от демократов многих студентов довёл до истерики.
Катынь – будут нам это тыкать вечно. Потому что единственный доказанный, во всяком случае ими, случай расстрелов в Польше. А наши не в какую ничего признавать не собираются, и правильно делают.
Наши солдаты варвары.
В девяностых специальная комиссия в Берлине проанализировала 10000 школьных сочинений немецких детей обучавшихся в 1946-47 годах. Выяснилось что отношение к советским войскам у них колебалось от нейтрального до положительного. И кстати американские оккупационные войска в Японии, до сих пор не торопятся свалить.
«И они НИКОГДА не вырезали 24000 индейских военнопленных» - да они давали им одежду больных оспой и отпускали. Вот такие добрые понимаешь, американцы.
За Хиросиму – представитель Индии на Токийском процессе, сказал буквально следующие, «Если какое либо безжалостное и неоправданное уничтожение мирных жителей ещё может считаться незаконным в войне, тогда таковым является решение сбросить атомную бомбу, которое подходит под категорию преступления, совершенных во время Второй мировой нацистскими лидерами.» И почему при прорыве Забайкальского фронта советские войска взяли в плен почти половину Квантунской армии, а американцы пленных не брали? В Нью-Йорке череп японца стоил сто баксов, ухо десять. Вот она «цивилизация».
И за какие грехи стёрли в порошок Дрезден? Который производил только сигареты и фарфор. Была Масленица, потоки беженцев увеличили население города до миллиона. До этого дня, 13 февраля 1945 город никто ни разу не бомбил, просто целей там не было.
Сто сорок часов беспрерывной бойни. Город не имел собственной ПВО, немецкие ВВС к этому времени уже перестали существовать как организованная сила. Первый удар – 24 минуты, напалм и фосфор, тонко рассчитанный эффект огненного смерча. Люди пытались спастись в центральном парке Дрездена, вторая волна обрушила свои бомбы именно туда. Третья волна состояла из истребителей бомбардировщиков «Мустанг» на бреющем полёте расстреливающих колонны бегущих из города людей. Двести сорок тысяч убитых. И они ещё смеют вякать о «военных преступлениях» Soviet troops.
В общем участвовать вряд ли буду, но за трэдом посмотрю, если увижу что то о чём знаю, поделюсь.
А вообще могуче вы там зажигаете, вдвоём против всего мира:)))
Фины распространяли листовки в которых их лагеря для военнопленых представлялись как курорты. На самом деле дневной паёк составлял в них от 200 до 300 граммов хлеба на рыло. Это то что я знаю точно.
Когда первое русское наступление остановилось, и под влиянием этого события усилилась тенденция недооцннивать силу Красной Армии. Эту точку зрения разделял например Черчиль, заявивший, что Финляндия «открыла всему миру слабость Красной Армии».
Однако анализ выявляет истинные причины, неудачи в первой фазе компании. В то время как в Польше создавались самые благоприятные в Европе условия для блицкрига, как в силу географии так и благодаря невероятному по маштабам идиотизму местного штаба вообще и его главы Рыдз-Смиглы в частности, Финляндия была пожалуй самым неудобным местом на планете для такой, да и для любой другой стратегии. Мороз, доходящий до -40, сотни озёр и болот, непроходимые (фины так думали) леса, эшелонированная оборона, с бункерами уходящими на 30 метров под землю, минные поля, противотанковые рвы, и вся прочая прелесть плюс очень неплохой командующий, который эту оборону и строил. Фины имели преимущество обусловленное лучшей сетью внутренних коммуникаций, а именно сетью железных и шоссеёных дорог. Они распологали несколькими рокадными железными дорогами, идущими параллельно и позволявших быстро перебрасывать подкрепления, в результате они могли создавать существенное превосходство в живой силе на любом участке обороны, где этого требовала ситуация. У нас же была одна линияЛенинград – Мурманск с единственной веткой в сторону финской границы. Чтобы создать угрозу тому или иному важному в стратегическом отношении пункту, приходилось перодолевать расстояние в 80 – 250км в сторону от железной дороги, по лесам, болотам, и занесённым снегом дорогам. Эти трудности ограничивали численность и состав войск которые СССР мог использовать против финов фактически максимум что могли использовать наши при прорыве наиболее узких участков финской территории участвовало по три дивизии, а в обходном манёвре у Ладожского озера четыре. Фины в своих газетах говорили конечно о «десятках дивизий» и «неисчислимых ордах варваров с Востока». Единственным местом на всём фронте где можно было развернуть крупные силы был район Сумны, что естественно задачу обороняющихся сильно облегчало, там с самого начала оборнялись шесть кадровых дивизий, кроме того самые мощные укрепления располагались именно там.
Наступление под командованием генерала Мерецкова началось 11 февраля. Главный удар наносился по 15 километровому учаску в районе Суммы. Мощная артподготовка подавила вражескую артиллерию , авиация добившиси превосходства в воздухе, наносила удары по подходящим подкреплениям. Менее чем за две недели наступления линия Маннергейма была прорванна на всю глубину, был также совершон глубокий обходной манёвр по льду Финского залива, что сами фины считали невозможным. Как только русские прорвали линию Маннергейма поражение стпло неизбежно и только капитуляция могла спасти Финляндию от катастрофы. Шестого марта финское правительство начало переговоры о мире.
О потерях – единственное что могу сказать, всё что выше ста пятидесяти тысяч убитыми и раненными, неправда. В то же время в Советском Союзе тема потерь в ходе этой войны старательно обходилась стороной.
Originally posted by Toad
You know what was different about Oki? The Japanese weren't EXECUTED. The committed suicide.
Originally posted by Toad
LOL.. yah, don't talk about it, try to change the subject to the suicide of civilians on Okinawa.
Originally posted by Toad
I suspect the Soviet Stalinist version of what happened in Finland is as far removed from reality as the Soviet Stalinist version of what happened to the 24,000 Poles murdered by the NKVD.
I haven't researched it, but given the lies you Soviets tell yourselves, I sure wouldn't be surprised to find it's just more denial of what really happened.
Originally posted by Toad
LOL.. yah, don't talk about it, try to change the subject to the suicide of civilians on Okinawa.
You know what was different about Oki? The Japanese weren't EXECUTED. The committed suicide.
Unlike say... the POLISH POWs AT KATYN, who were murdered.
Lie to yourselves all you like. Try to change the subject all you like. Drink yourselves into oblivion to try and hide from the truth that the rest of the world realized long ago.
But when you wonder why the entire rest of the world views the Soviets as barbarian conquerers, you really know WHY. You just can't handle admitting it.
You guys are funnier than the very best comedians.!
Buh-bye.
Russians are a nation of Satan[/b]
Originally posted by mora
As far as I'm conserned you can keep that wasteland. The 1918-1939 border was mostly what it had been historically. You accepted the borders in 1918 and over 20 years later you got different thoughts, and stole a big chunk of land from us.
Even if your claims are true you shouldn't really expect anything from us.
Originally posted by Boroda
Soviet civilians criminally held in Finnish forced-labour camps in occupied Soviet Karelia in 1941-44.
Originally posted by Fishu
Hahaha, wasn't that something the USSR did for three decades? :rofl
You bloody criminals :rofl
Originally posted by Toad
Red side continues to argue that the sun may or may not rise in the East. Blue side continues to laugh at Red side.
Originally posted by genozaur
Fishy, you are a jerk. It's a fact.
What do innocent civilins have to do with NKVD criminals from Stalin's entourage ?
And you laugh at these inocent people many of whom died ?
You are simply a jerk. And this is not an insult.
Originally posted by genozaur
OK, Toad, but I warn you that the phrase about "every nation" was your mistake.
Expect some protests.
As for Katyn', I can repeat my opinion (just the opinion) that the Polish combatants (they included not only officers of the regular Polish Army but the police officers too) were executed by NKVD troops following the orders from the 'Kremlin highlander'.
With big degree of certainty this act was triggered by the radiobroadcast from London of the speech of the then (not elected by the general Polish public) head of Polish government in exile Sikorsky
who made a strange statement fully equalled to the declaration of war on the USSR (though the legitimate leaders of Poland did not declare war on the USSR even during Soviet-Polish armed hostilities). Other nuances on this topic you can find in my posts here and there.
Many people believe that David Koresh (or the Branch Davidians) were responsible for the deaths of the 74 men, women and children who died in the inferno at Waco on April 19, 1993. This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie. The guns they had were legal. The local sheriff investigated and found no basis for complaints against them. These were law-abiding American citizens, even if they thought differently to most other folks. They trusted the U.S. Constitution to ensure their political rights, but they were murdered by agents acting under the authority of the U.S. government.
Around midday two U.S. military pyrotechnic devices were fired into the main building, igniting a fire which (because of the holes in the walls allowing the wind to gust through) spread rapidly through the complex of buildings and became an inferno. 74 men, women and children died — including twelve children younger than five years of age. Fire trucks were prevented by the FBI from approaching the inferno. After the compound had burned down the BATF flag was hoisted aloft to signify 'victory'. Subsequently the burned-out ruin was razed in an attempt to remove all evidence of this premeditated murder of innocent civilians by agents of the U.S. government. Thus occured an atrocity which many Americans believe could never happen in their country.
Originally posted by bikekil
Sikorski since 28.IX.1939 was chief of Polish Army in France, two days later a prime minister in our ONLY goverment.
At this point till '89 there was no other Polish goverment... other then commie puppies that were never elected by Poles and server SU not Poland. That goverment in London was the only goverment who spoke with the Allied forces (including Soviets).
But let me ask you - do you think that after Soviets attack our lands on 17.IX.1939 we had to declare the war with them?
Another question - does (in your opinion) any statement is a good excuse to kill more then 20000 people? (especially when Soviets attacker Poland, not opposite ;) )
just checking...
"Bolshevized Ukraine") :Quote"In the villages we killed everybody to a single person and burnt everything when we had a slightest suspicion of insincerity. I personally worked using the stock [of the rifle]." [end of quote]
As it was witnessed by M.Kossakovski, to kill or torture to death a 'Bolshevik' was not even considered to be a sin.Quote"In the presence of general Listovski ([Polish]commander of the operational group in Polesie) there was shot dead a boy only for seemingly evil grinning". One of the Polish officersQuote"Shot people dead by tens only because they had poor clothes on and looked like Bolsheviks ... there were killed about twenty refugees who came from behind the front lines ... these people were robbed, whipped with the lengths of barbed wire, their skin was burnt by hot iron rods in order to get false confessions." Kossakovski also witnessed the following 'experiment' :Quote
"into the person's cut open belly they had sewn
a live cat and made bets on who would die first,
the human being or the cat." [end of quote] *
I guess, this is enough for making not only cruel Stalin but anybody mad at the Polish officers and their "gentlemenlike" conduct.
We don't know exactly how many of these monsters died in Katyn.
-------------------------------
* Quotations were borrowed from the book by Mikhail Mel'tiukhov. Sovetsko-Pol'skiye voiny (Soviet-Polish Wars) 2nd Ed., Moscow.: Yauza, Eksmo [Publishing Houses], 2004, pp.42-43 (ISBN 5-699-07637-9)
Originally posted by Raven_2
Katyn was a part of Nurnberg process. There were official investigation in USSR. "only rumours"? BS.
After 1937 there were no mass killings in USSR.
Originally posted by Raven_2
For now you have only one "argument": "we, westerners, know that your nation is barbaric murderers.
Originally posted by Boroda
JFYI: most of the time when Stalin was in power there was no death penalty in USSR. It was "reintroduced" after the War, mostly for war criminals.
USSR with the same population had almost 2 times less prisoners.
Originally posted by Boroda
JFYI: most of the time when Stalin was in power there was no death penalty in USSR. It was "reintroduced" after the War, mostly for war criminals.
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... so how many political enemies has yeltsin executed so far?
lazs
Originally posted by Raven_2
to mora
>>What happened to many of the officers of the red army and many other people?
LOL. "What happened to many people". Good question. And very precise :-) And what happened to many people in your country, mora? :-)
Originally posted by mora
Geez... It doesn't seem very precice as you are quoting only half of my post.
So is the Stalins "cleaning" of the red army in the '30s also just another piece of propaganda? How about the disappearings of the finnish commie immigrants along with many others who's loyalty was guestioned?
Originally posted by lazs2
Being shot in a riot is a lot different tho than huddling in your home hoping not to be arrested and vanish.
Originally posted by Boroda
Every European nation commited crimes much more horrible in their history.
Originally posted by Toad
I doubt the "MUCH" part but there's no doubt they committed equally barbarous crimes.
The DIFFERENCE is that the OTHER countries ADMIT they did it. The OTHER countries are not in DENIAL.
BIG DIFFERENCE. Sort of indicates which countries may do stuff like that again.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Arrrrghhh! Bik! WTF! This bastards from Warsava want to rename one of the crossroads to Dudaev`s square?! Dudadev - was one of the Czechnia terrorists leader. There were two variants: call square in the memory of Beslan`s kids and in the memory of Johar Dudaev. Victims and their murder. And your democratic peasant party choose Dudaev. What a bastards poles are... I have no words...
If someone give me the gun now I shot this freaks by myself :-{
News in russian: http://www.globalrus.ru/news/140524/
Originally posted by Toad
Like I said Boroda... the nature of the Soviet government from the Revolution onwards is well known to the rest of the world.
Originally posted by Toad
Lie to yourself all you like but history remains unchanged by the fact that you lie to yourself.
Originally posted by Toad
......... and my pension comes from a nice little capitalistic company, not the government. Thanks for playing.
Originally posted by straffo
Add to this for some Frenchman like me , you are just paying your past and your present in Chechenia.
You can hate the frenh also now.
Unfortunatly it's not the head who are killed but more the average Joe (or Ivan in the case of russians).
The nature of any government is known to any educated person who reads books, availible in any free country, and makes decisions based on facts and different opinions
Yes. Histoty remains unchanged, regardless to the wishes of new world masters, rewriting it
Yes, we pay for letting prehistoric savages rape, murder and rob non-Chechen population since 1991.
We also pay for Yeltsin's lame attempt to use Chechen gangs as a sword of Damocles over Caucasus.
Also we pay for irresponsible politics of European human-rights lunatics, for whom Russians or other Soviet people don't have any rights, but savages cutting heads and killing pregnant women only because they don't belong to "core nation" are Brave Fighters for Freedom with Evil Russian Bear.
Why not give "political asylum" to all Chechens and pay them EU welfare? They are so cute, with machineguns (their symbol of masculinity), beards and green bandanas!
Originally posted by straffo
I don't (and you don't) believe it's so simple.
Originally posted by straffo
Look to be a better explanation to me.
Originally posted by straffo
Propaganda, not all "human-rights lunatics" back the chechen blindly.
Some can be "human-rights lunatics" like and think lot of chechen leader are nothing but criminal.
But I think Putin is also a criminal because he kill Chechen but also because he kill Russian in a war which got no visible end.
Originally posted by straffo
Grab a Ogуrki* and a glass of Vodka it should be better for your health ;)
Originally posted by straffo
* I don't remember the name of the russian version sorry.
Originally posted by lazs2
ok... this isn't making any sense to me. "official" russian documents show that stalin only executed 3/4 of a million people but the entire rest of the world believes it to be between 10-20 million? could it bwe somewhere inbetween?
Originally posted by lazs2
and... 1 million or one third of german POW's died undrer this gentle regiem? that much was admitted.... the world believes much more.
Originally posted by bikekil
On Gen,
You'd like to sound like a well educated in Polish history, so let me quote you
"Do not fool yourself with the ONLY Polish government sitting on their high stools in London and "electing" an idiot for the Prime Minister in exile."
Was it or was it not an only Polish goverment at the time? You can call Sikorki a fool, your choice, for me it's a hero who said what should be said, but i don't have to force you to feel the same. If i were him, i would declere a War and call Stalin an idiot.... but earlier then he did :D...
"Your government (before it fled abroad) and the Commander-in-Chief ( before Sikorski) were wise enough not to declare the war on the Soviet Union even when the armed border conflict between the Red Army and Polish border guards was in progress."
First of all, unfortunatelly for you i know pretty much about that attack because my grandpa fought with the Soviets there and i have to assure you - he was not in a border guard. It was a no less and no more then a war. Saying it was a kind of a border conflict is a sign of a great arrogance, great ignorance or... i won't insult you... or just a lack of knowledge :) but still, my first question is waiting for an answer - do you think that after Soviets attack our lands on 17.IX.1939 we had to declare the war with them? In my opinion Soviets already declared the was by attacking our lands without declering a war... soulnd cowardly to me if you ask me... but hey... they were sneaky snealy huh? ;) Ever heard of Ribbentrop - Molotow pact? Still saying it was a border conflict after which Soviets were supposed to het half of our lands? Isn't it too much for a border conflict? :) Now that's foolish
To answer the rest of it. If you read my earlier posts you would see me admitin the crimes on the Sovied POW's capturen in Poland. So you would finally find one Pole who admits it and saying "i'm sorry" about it :)
But hey, you are so well educated - you know better :)
Let me tell you how it is. There is a big issue about Polish - Ukrainian crimes. It's a probably topic for another thread but let me assure you. In Polish TV you will find a lot of documentary movies about the Polish crimes on Ukraine. I'm not a TV maniac but seen at least 10 during the last year. DOn't be fooled, Ukrainians executed and murdered a lot of Poles there too, but the point is - i would be more then happy if in Ukraine people could see that much about their crimes in that conflict (hard to call it other then that) as we in Poland see about ours in our TV. That's the great thiung IMO and i hope to see more of it, so i was not so arrogant dick who knonws only about the crimes done by his neighbours and not by his own people.
Other than that, i believe we can live in peace and friendship with Ukraine as it apeared lately... and which was as it apeared a salt in Russian eye, don't you think? ;)
As for Pilsudski, a lot of people in Poland call him a hero. I say it's pretty risky, but i also think he did a lot of good for Poland. It's hard to make people think and talk about his crimes on the Soviet POW's as the best know part of Polish- Bolshevick war here is a "Miracle over Vistula" where Red Army was stopped and pushed back. That's why we call him a hero... but you are right, we should also speak about his crimes and i hope we will, no matter what your take on Katyn is :)
"Polish Hitler".
#) About Ukrainian crimes against Polish people.
Because the Ukrainians were treated as slaves by the Poles for several centuries, it's no wonder that the slave revolts were far from the duel between gentlemen. Still, the final atrocities in this fight were commited by the Polish side ('Operation Visla' in 1947).
Originally posted by Boroda
Again - Red side disagrees on the scales of what dr. Goebbels called "purges". (It's intersting to know origin of some newspeak terms, isn't it?)
JFYI: most of the time when Stalin was in power there was no death penalty in USSR. It was "reintroduced" after the War, mostly for war criminals.
Soviet statistics on GULAG population is de-classified now. It's interesting. I said many times that Russia with it's 150 million population in 1999 had 2 million people in prisons and camps, while at the worst year of "Stalin's repressions", 1940, USSR with the same population had almost 2 times less prisoners. Is it one of the reasons West loves Yeltsin so much? :confused:
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... so how many political enemies has yeltsin executed so far?
lazs
Originally posted by Fishu
Why to uselessly kill good working force? just send them to the labor camps and work them to the death, much more useful.
Also makes the statistics look nicer.
Same with the prisoners, just send unwanted people somewhere where nobody wants to go and call the place as a rehabilitation camp or similar.
Doesn't make the things any better in my eyes.
There are many ways to kill and punish people, it is not always the direct action.
Originally posted by Toad
I doubt the "MUCH" part but there's no doubt they committed equally barbarous crimes.
The DIFFERENCE is that the OTHER countries ADMIT they did it. The OTHER countries are not in DENIAL.
BIG DIFFERENCE. Sort of indicates which countries may do stuff like that again.
Yep. It's not the "new world masters" that are trying to change it though. It's the old world tyrants, enslavers and barbarians that never learned it or admitted their deeds that are the problem.
"Death missions?" Hardly. Mostly just cruising 20 miles off the Soviet coastline plotting where you'd moved your air defense radars to since the last time we flew by. Best part was watching your PVO Strany pilots struggling to fly formation with an airliner with the autopilot on.
Getting shot by a missle never worried us. We knew you guys always used fighters to murder people on aircraft in International Airspace. The greatest danger from your fighters was from them being unable to fly formation.
I was never scared we'd be shot down but there were a lot of times I was scared some bozo with little flying experience or skill was going to run into us. [END OF QUOTE]
Toad, if you are trying to hint at the Korean airliner used by the CIA and the USAF as a spy plane full of civillian hostages, you are dead wrong on that.
I served in the PVO Strany for a year. And I vividly remember the corridors with the walls covered with photos of PVO heros who were awarded with medals from the Soviet government for securing the safe landings of foreign aircraft that strayed for some reason into the Soviet airspace.
I even remember that "filthy" Soviet propaganda glorified only the cases involving civilian passenger planes. I was impressed with the case of a stray airliner which was helped with the landing on a frozen lake somewhere in southern Siberia. A bunch of ordinary Soviet soldiers received battle medals for saving people's lives.
So don't force-feed everybody once again with the American propaganda slogans of the Cold War era about "Russian barbarians". I already had a word with you about this term ("barbarians") which is the propaganda label since the times of so funky-gloriuos Roman Empire.
But let me continue with the "KAL-007".
If you dig a quater-inch deeper into the literature published in the United States of America, you'll easily find out that the chief pilot on this flight was a CIA-paid guy, and parallel to "KAL" was flying (but outside the Soviet airspace though twice closer than you did) a true American spy plane, with the American spy satellite right above them all.
And if you pay me for my ticket out of these states (that's what Nuke offered me because he does not like my tongue), I will tell you the names ... I mean the makes of the American spy plane and the satellite. But probably you know it without my paid lip service.
:D
Originally posted by lazs2
ok... this isn't making any sense to me. "official" russian documents show that stalin only executed 3/4 of a million people but the entire rest of the world believes it to be between 10-20 million? could it bwe somewhere inbetween?
and... 1 million or one third of german POW's died undrer this gentle regiem? that much was admitted.... the world believes much more.
Now... the horrible American genocide of the indians... We were at war. we killed them and they killed us. They had no respect for civilians and indeed, targeted em as did we. If you read about those times you will find that in allmost every case it was the indians that broke the early treaties. And... we were playing by their rules.. their rules were... the strongest tribe gets the land.
as for riots... do you know how many people our government has killed in riots over the last half century? care to guess?
lazs
Originally posted by genozaur
The 3/5 of a million people executed can easily be not a correct number because, as one of the Russian guys has mentioned here about his close relative, there was also an unannounced officially number of people sentenced to inprisonment "without the right for correspondence" (bez prava na perepisku). All these people were effectively sent to the death row, some of them executed immediately. Though the formal verdict was so and so years "bez prava na perepisku".
"Polish Hitler". [/b]
A powewr of democracy can do a miracles huh? :) I'm not the only one who knows about crimes of Pilsudski (there were more POW's killed by him then by the Soviets in Katyn (but if you add the Syberia ;) ). I'm far from calling him a Hitler, but he surely is responsible for a lot of human beings... right after Hitler and Stalin... and probably many more. Anyway... power of democracy. freedom of speech - know what it is?
"#) About Ukrainian crimes against Polish people..."
From what i know both sides appologised for his crimes and that's the good start... hopefully.
Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, if you are trying to hint at the Korean airliner used by the CIA and the USAF as a spy plane full of civillian hostages, you are dead wrong on that.
Originally posted by Fishu
Toad,
Gee.. I wonder why some planes were shot down.
Nothing to do with the constant violations of the USSR airspace?-)
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad
Delude by whom, Toad? By you and your kind? Why you think that *your* words must weight for me more? Again, has any proves? Of course not! Like always...
And, yes, you right. All you can is lie. All I can is deny your lies.
I Told the World the Soviets Shot It Down in Cold Blood, But I Was Wrong
By Alvin A. Snyder
<...>
Alvin Snyder is a former director of television for the U.S. Information Agency and author of "Warriors of Disinformation: American Propaganda, Soviet Lies and the Winning of the Cold War" (Arcade Publishing).
But within the last few years, additional taped evidence has become public that makes clear that I was given only selective information-some of the pilots' words and none of the comments of the ground controllers. Those full conversations reveal that the Russians believed the intruder aircraft was an American RC-135 reconnaissance plane, many of which flew routine missions in the area. The tapes, which are compiled in the final report of the International Civil Aviation Organization's investigation of the incident released in 1993 told me what I did not hear.
The tapes, the content of which U.S. government officials were aware of at the time of the shootdown, show that Osipovich could not identify the plane, and that he fired warning cannons and tipped his wings, an international signal to force the plane to l and. All this failed to get the crew's attention. The controller said, "The target is military. As soon as it has violated state borders, destroy it. Arm your weapons . . . . The target has violated the state border. Destroy the target."
Former U.S. officials involved in the coverup, who insist on anonymity, have told me that monitoring data was intentionally withheld from our U.N. tape. Beyond the propaganda value, the U.S. did not wish to tip the Soviets to the sophistication of its int elligence along the Soviet border. "Although untrue and unfair," one former State Department official told me, "it intimidated the Russians, and probably helped to prevent future such incidents and saved lives. We gave them a beating."
Flight 007 was a victim of the Cold War, and it proved that war could be very real and could lead to human casualties. Another casualty, always war's first, was the truth. Anything that worked was fair game. The story of Flight 007 will be remembered pret ty much the way we told it in 1983, not the way it really happened. Technology may well spawn disinformation more insidious than any we have yet known. What replaces 1980s-style disinformation in the future may make it seem wholesome by comparison, and th e press must be ever more vigilant.
In the United States of America, for example, a country of 252 million inhabitants (in 1996), the richest country in the world, which consumes 60% of the world resources, how many people are in prison? What is the situation in the US, a country not threatened by any war and where there are no deep social changes affecting economic stability?
In a rather small news item appearing in the newspapers of August 1997, the FLT-AP news agency reported that in the US there had never previously been so many people in the prison system as the 5.5 million held in 1996. This represents an increase of 200,000 people since 1995 and means that the number of criminals in the US equals 2.8% of the adult population. These data are available to all those who are part of the North American department of justice. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Home page, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/ ) . The number of convicts in the US today is 3 million higher than the maximum number ever held in the Soviet Union! In the Soviet Union there was a maximum of 2.4% of the adult population in prison for their crimes – in the US the figure is 2.8%, and rising! According to a press release put out by the US department of justice on 18 January 1998, the number of convicts in the US in 1997 rose by 96,100.
As far as the Soviet labour camps were concerned, it is true that the regime was harsh and difficult for the prisoners, but what is the situation today in the prisons of the US, which are rife with violence, drugs, prostitution, sexual slavery (290,000 rapes a year in US prisons). Nobody feels safe in US prisons! And this today, and in a society richer than ever before!
Originally posted by Raven_2: Should we now call USA a totalitarian country?
Originally posted by Nekto
Raven_2
Я, вроде, сказал про одного...
За что - не знаю. У меня нет доступа к материалам следствия.
Originally posted by Nekto
Raven I don't think it's correct to write in Russian here. It's an english-language forum yet. :D
Originally posted by Boroda
В Штатах хуй кого допустят к технике такого уровня секретности если у него в семье есть неблагонадёжные.
Originally posted by Boroda
Please, leave moderation to moderator ;)
Originally posted by Boroda
Again, last year US/NATO military planes violated the airspace of Russian Federation at least 100 times. Any of that "doves of peace" was a legal target for PVO.
It's a weel-known fact that US used civilian planes as recon-drones for provocations to reveal Soviet air-defence system. Also they used this planes as shields for spy-planes.
Originally posted by Fishu
...and soviets/russians have done exactly the same things.
Even on the finnish border, thats how I know.
Originally posted by Boroda
Then you had all the rights to shoot them down. Seriously.
Originally posted by Fishu
yeah and get whole lot of **** on us.
They haven't usually crossed the border though, but been coming fast towards and then at the very last second avoided it or kept flying along the border.
I hear some have made some brief visits across the border and as soon as the came, back to other side.
Originally posted by Boroda
[B Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?... Quite easy to believe. :( Anyway we couldn't fire more the a few dozen missiles without assemblying more out of storage containers... [/B]
Originally posted by mora
Not discounting what you are saying... But that kind of stories to so many military personnel around the world. "When a war breaks out you have xxx seconds to live". This seems apply at least to radar and missile operators, missile surveyors and even coastal look outs.
Genozaur: If you dig a quater-inch deeper into the literature published in the United States of America, you'll easily find out that the chief pilot on this flight was a CIA-paid guy, and parallel to "KAL" was flying (but outside the Soviet airspace though twice closer than you did) a true American spy plane, with the American spy satellite right above them all.[/b]
show that Osipovich could not identify the plane
Boroda:[/b]
Toad, if you flew NSA missions - then I understand why you have to post all this stuff her
If Soviet planes violated American airspace - you had all the rights to shoot them down. Knowing American attitude to such affairs and their urge for at least some truth in their propaganda agenda - your side never could afford to miss such a chance[/b]
Raven:What do you think on this, Toad? Did you know this?[/b]
Why they hide it? Maybe cause there is no evidience in this docs? Or maybe USA just don`t want blame Stalin? :-)
American President Franklin D. Roosevelt was unwilling to accept the validity of the Nazis' charges. When Captain George Earle, a personal friend of Roosevelt and a former naval attache to Bulgaria, later expressed to the president his desire to publish evidence implicating the Soviets (which he had received in Sofia), Roosevelt gave him a written order not to do so.
After Earle indicated he might "go public" about Katyn anyway, he was soon there-after abruptly and otherwise inexplicably posted to the Samoan Islands for the remainder of the Second World War.22
Originally posted by Boroda
One of the reasons why KAL007 was shot was that they entered Soviet airspace for the first time at the place and course used weekly by RC-135s, a so-called "S" maneuver,
Originally posted by Boroda
Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?... Quite easy to believe. :(
I Told the World the Soviets Shot It Down in Cold Blood, But I Was Wrong
By Alvin A. Snyder
<...>
Alvin Snyder is a former director of television for the U.S. Information Agency
But within the last few years, additional taped evidence has become public that makes clear that I was given only selective information-some of the pilots' words and none of the comments of the ground controllers. Those full conversations reveal that the Russians believed the intruder aircraft was an American RC-135 reconnaissance plane, many of which flew routine missions in the area. The tapes, which are compiled in the final report of the International Civil Aviation Organization's investigation of the incident released in 1993 told me what I did not hear.
The tapes, the content of which U.S. government officials were aware of at the time of the shootdown, show that Osipovich could not identify the plane, and that he fired warning cannons and tipped his wings, an international signal to force the plane to l and. All this failed to get the crew's attention. The controller said, "The target is military. As soon as it has violated state borders, destroy it. Arm your weapons . . . . The target has violated the state border. Destroy the target."
Former U.S. officials involved in the coverup, who insist on anonymity, have told me that monitoring data was intentionally withheld from our U.N. tape. Beyond the propaganda value, the U.S. did not wish to tip the Soviets to the sophistication of its int elligence along the Soviet border. "Although untrue and unfair," one former State Department official told me, "it intimidated the Russians, and probably helped to prevent future such incidents and saved lives. We gave them a beating."
Flight 007 was a victim of the Cold War, and it proved that war could be very real and could lead to human casualties. Another casualty, always war's first, was the truth. Anything that worked was fair game. The story of Flight 007 will be remembered pret ty much the way we told it in 1983, not the way it really happened. Technology may well spawn disinformation more insidious than any we have yet known. What replaces 1980s-style disinformation in the future may make it seem wholesome by comparison, and th e press must be ever more vigilant.
Originally posted by Toad
Holden, one of the primary purposes of RC flights was to plot all their radars so that the ingress routes would be areas of either no or unreliable radar coverage. The info for the entire coastline was updated about every week to ten days.
Originally posted by Toad
Once again, he doesn't know what he's talking about. No need to nuke a SAM site; it's preposterous. You preferably go around them or neutralize them using other means.
Originally posted by Boroda
In other words - you were seeking fro possible routes for your bombers to bring nukes to Soviet cities. Cities were (and still are) your main targets, because nuclear weapons are relatively ineffective against military targets.
Peacefull intentions, indeed.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
American Air Force F-106 agressively intercepting a peaceful 'Bear' doing peaceful scientific polar bear counting studies on the arctic coast of North America.
Originally posted by Boroda
Again - if Soviet recon planes violated American airspace - US had all the rights to shoot them down.
Nuclear War Planning
The next JIC estimate of the Soviet Union, JIC 329, written only two months after the official cessation of hostilities against Japan, focused on Soviet vulnerability to a limited attack with atomic weapons. But first, JIC 329 concerned itself with Soviet military potential and the context for a limited American attack against the USSR. Although acknowledging the relative invulnerability of the continental United States to a Soviet conventional attack in the near future, JIC 329 warned, "...[in] the event of hostilities in Europe or on the mainland of Asia (Korea), the Soviets would enjoy a great preponderance in numbers of men against the United States or even against the United States, Great Britain, and France." The latter combination of nations represented the maximum coalition likely to oppose the Soviets with significant military forces.
Given the distinct Soviet advantages in conventional forces, JIC 329 identified 20 Soviet cities for atomic destruction in an effort to blunt a Red Army offensive in Europe or the Asian mainland. These Soviet cities possessed certain militarily favorable characteristics. According to JIC 329:
The 20 most profitable objectives for attack by atomic bombs are considered to be a selection of mixed industrial areas containing the highest proportion of research and development centers, specialized production facilities, and key government or administrative personnel. This selection would exploit the maximum capabilities of the weapon, produce the quickest, most direct, and certain effects on the Soviet Union's immediate offensive capabilities, and achieve the greatest impact against her latent offensive power.31
The Soviet cities selected for atomic bombing in JIC 329 were Moscow, Gorki, Kuibyshev, Sverdlovsk, Novosibrisk, Omsk, Saratov, Kazan, Leningrad, Baku, Tashkent, Chelyabinsk, Nizhni Tagil, Magnitogorsk, Molotov, Tbilisi, Stalinsk, Grozny, Irkutsk, and Yarolavl. JIC 329 was the likely basis for the earliest known nuclear war plan against the Soviet Union.
Although JIC 329 recognized that there was no immediate Soviet threat to the continental United States, it estimated that this situation would be short lived. The JIC concluded that the Soviet capability of attacking the US mainland and American forces overseas would improve materially with time. There would be rapid improvements in the Soviet bomber force, which would include the production of heavier aircraft capable of operating over longer distances. In addition, the JIC warned of the development of an intensive Soviet scientific research program designed to produce new weapons such as the atomic bomb. JIC 329 was forthright in admitting that these new developments in Soviet weaponry could not be estimated with absolute precision. It predicted the Soviets would develop an aircraft comparable to or better than the American B-29 within five years, and were likely to manufacture and deploy guided missiles within one or two years. Despite the extremely complicated problems involved, the JIC concluded that the Soviets probably could send guided missiles against the continental United States with sufficient accuracy to attack individual cities in approximately five years.
Originally posted by Toad
No need to nuke a SAM site; it's preposterous. You preferably go around them or neutralize them using other means.
Originally posted by Boroda
Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?...
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad
Toad, you missed one of my posts :-) I repeat myself....
...And, let me guess: you still deny this, yes?
Originally posted by Boroda[/b]
In other words - you were seeking fro possible routes for your bombers to bring nukes to Soviet cities. Cities were (and still are) your main targets, because nuclear weapons are relatively ineffective against military targets.
Peacefull intentions, indeed.
What are the "other means"? Carpet bombing as usual?[/b]
Your attempts to present your losses over Soviet land as "Soviet barbarians shooting down American birds of peace in international airspace" are ridiculous.
Originally posted by Boroda
Again - if Soviet recon planes violated American airspace - US had all the rights to shoot them down.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
"Allies"... Make gain on others blood. A main strategy of USA.
Raven:[/b]
Fckng USA bastards... Wanna burn > 13.000.000 people just "to destroy Red Alert"...
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad
>>I didn't miss it. It's just more BS.
So, USA Informain Agency is a source of all BS? `cause this words belongs to it director.
The "Fraeulein's" lack of cooperation was no obstacle for the troops under General Eisenhowers command. According to testimony given in the US Senate on 07-17-'45, when French Colonial troops, under Eisenhowers command, entered the city of Stuttgart they herded German women into the subway tunnels and proceeded to rape about 2000 of them. Even a PM reporter " reluctantly confirmed the story in its major details". (See Peace Action, July 1945)
The US forces under the command of General McArthur landed in Yokosuka port, in Kanagawa Prefecture, Japan, on August 30, 1945. 315 cases of rape by US soldiers were reported to the authorities on that day, in Kanagawa Prefecture alone, The next day, on August 31st, there were 228 cases of rape. By September 10th, a total of 1326 cases of rape by US soldiers were reported in Kanagawa Prefecture. There were also numerous cases of homicide. Most such cases went unpunished.
There is no reign of terror in Prague or any part of Bohemia. Russians are stern realists with the collaborator and the fascist element, but a man whose conscience can go without fear.
The discipline of the Red Army is good. There is no more looting, rape or bullying that in any zone of occupation. Wild stories of brutality arise from magnification and distortion of individual instances, given verisimilitude by the Czechs’ nervousness of the Russian soldiers’ exuberant manners and their liking for vodka… One woman who told me the most hair-rising tales of Russian brutality in Prague was forced in the end to admit that the only evidence she had seen with her own eyes was drunken Russian officers firing pistols into he air or shooting at bottles.
The most objective account of Russian behavior came from a middle-aged woman. I took notes of the interview:
Q: You say the Russians behaved very brutally after the fighting. What do you mean by "brutally"?
A: They looted houses, shot anyone who resisted them, and attacked women. They lost all control.
Q: What happened when they looted a house? Can you tell me about a house you saw looted? Did they loot your house?
A: yes, all these flats were looted. After the firing stopped up the street, ten or eleven soldiers came up the stairs and started kicking and beating on the doors. We were afraid to open, so, they broke the locks or kicked them down.
Q: Then what happened?
A: they looked everywhere to see if there were any arms or snipers. Than some of them started pulling open drawers and throwing things about, and others attacked the women.
Q: What do you mean by "attacked"? did they rape the women?
A: Mostly, yes.
Q: All of them? Did all the Russian soldiers rape, or try to rape the women?
A: Not all – most of them. They were drunk. They had bottles of brandy and wine and they were excited – you understand how it would be.
Q: How many women were in this building?
A: There were eight of us, I think. Three were in my flat with me.
Q: Were you raped?
A: No. One of them came at me, but I speak a little Russian and I told him he was drunk and a disgrace to his country. I told him to tell the others to leave the women alone.
Q: Did that stop him?
A: Yes. He was only a boy. He seemed ashamed, but he took all my clothes out of the drawers and wardrobes. He said the Germans had taken all the Russian women’s clothes in 1941, so he didn’t see why he shouldn’t have what he wanted. I didn’t try to stop him.
Q: Didn’t he try to stop the others?
A: they were all drunk. The Russians are terrible when they are drunk. You have no idea what they are like.
Q: How do you know the other women were raped?
A: I saw a Russian rape my friend.
Q: Violently.
A: yes.
Q: But did you actually see what happened to the others?
A: No, but there was no doubt about it. They weren’t lying. It really happened, I assure you.
Q: Wasn’t this just another isolated instance?
A: No, it happened all over Berlin. I am not exaggerating. It really happened. At least half the young women in Berlin have been raped by Russians. The trouble went on for days after the fighting stopped.
Q: Did the Russian officers not try to control their troops?
A: Of course. Most of the officers were very nice. If you could only get to an officer you were usually all right. We heard that some of the soldiers had been caught in the act and shot. But it was no good complaining. If the officers didn’t see it, they wouldn’t believe.
Q: When did this sort of behavior stop?
A: It never did stop entirely. The trouble was the wine and brandy stocks. They should have been destroyed. The troops would get drunk at night and the trouble would start up all over again. They were only really bad when they were drunk. They were different when you got to know them. We were lucky in this district – we had one lot for ten days billeted in this house. We were sorry to see them go, because we were afraid of what would happen when a new lot came in. They were childish, really. Sometimes after trouble they would come in the morning and apologise and ask you not to tell. They would give you some food, just to be friendly and make amends.
Q: You said people were shot. Did you actually see any cases of civilians being shot?
A: A woman I knew up the street was killed.
Q: Did you see her body?
A: yes. Her sister and I buried her in the garden.
Q: Why was she shot?
A: The Russians thought she had a revolver.
Q: had she a revolver?
A: No. She had no revolver.
Baffling people, these Russians! Rape and apology. Theft atoned by gifts of food. The savage sacking of a blasted city and, within days, attempts to rehabilitate it…
After more than half a century, facts about a grim chapter of World War II history are coming to light: the widespread rape by American military servicemen of local women on the Pacific island of Okinawa. The discovery in 1998 of the bones of three wartime US Marine Corps men, each one 19 years old and black, has -- according to a New York Times report (June 1, 2000) -- "refocused attention on what historians say is one of the most widely ignored crimes of the war, the widespread rape of Okinawan women by American servicemen."
More than 200,000 soldiers and civilians, including one-third of the population of Okinawa, were killed in the April-June 1945 battle for the Pacific island.
As many as 10,000 Okinawan women may have been raped, one scholar estimates. Rape was so prevalent in the months following US subjugation of the island that most Okinawans over age 65 either know or have heard of a woman who was raped in the aftermath of the war. Marine Corps officials say they have no records of such mass rapes, but books, diaries, newspaper articles and other documents refer to rapes by American soldiers of various races and backgrounds. Apparently few if any Okinawan women reported being attacked out of fear and embarrassment, and those who did were ignored by the US military police.
The three black Marines whose bones were found in 1998, and who were identified by dental records, were apparently killed by men of the remote Okinawan village of Katsuyama because the three had repeatedly come to their village to rape their women. Elderly Okinawans who grew up in village told a New York Times reporter that three armed Marines would come to Katsuyama every weekend and force the village men to take them to their women, who were then carried off to the hills and raped. One day, villagers, with the help of two armed Japanese soldiers who were hiding in the jungle, ambushed three marines in a mountain pass. They were shot and beaten to death with sticks and stones, and their bodies dumped in a hillside cave. Because the three were black, the cave where their bodies were dumped became known as "Cave of the Negroes."
"It would be unfair for the public to get the impression that we were all a bunch of rapists after we worked so hard to serve our country," says Samuel Saxton, a retired Marine Corps Captain who has an interest in the case. There are no plans to prosecute anyone for the crimes.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Toad, still you didn`t answer on my question directly. This words by USA IA director is lie? Soviet propaganda? Or what?
The Members of the International War Crimes Tribunal find the accused Guilty on the basis of the evidence against them: each of the nineteen separate crimes alleged in the Initial Complaint has been established to have been committed beyond a reasonable doubt. The Members find these crimes to have occurred during three main periods in the U.S. intervention in and occupation of Korea.
The best-known period is from June 25, 1950, until July 27, 1953, the "Korean War," when over 4.6 million Koreans perished, according to conservative Western estimates, including 3 million civilians in the north and 500,000 civilians in the south. The evidence of U.S. war crimes presented to this Tribunal included eyewitness testimony and documentary accounts of massacres of thousands of civilians in southern Korea by U.S. military forces during the war. Abundant evidence was also presented concerning criminal and even genocidal U.S. conduct in northern Korea, including the systematic leveling of most buildings and dwellings by U.S. artillery and aerial bombardment; widespread atrocities committed by U.S. and R.O.K. forces against civilians and prisoners of war; the deliberate destruction of facilities essential to civilian life and economic production; and the use of illegal weapons and biological and chemical warfare by the U.S. against the people and the environment of northern Korea. Documentary and eyewitness evidence was also presented showing gross and systematic violence committed against women in northern and southern Korea, characterized by mass rapes, sexual assaults and murders.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Is there any prove (except this Beevor guy) that all german rapes were did by Soviet troops?
The tapes, the content of which U.S. government officials were aware of at the time of the shootdown, show that Osipovich could not identify the plane, and that he fired warning cannons and tipped his wings, an international signal to force the plane to l and.
The Soviet pilot who destroyed KAL 007, Gennadi Osipovich, recalled thirteen years later in an interview in December 1996: "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian plane into one for military use."
Originally posted by Fishu
Thank god or something you're not a politician, otherwise we would be already in the third world war.
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, murder.
When a fighter shoots down a civilian airliner that he could have forced to land.. that's murder.
He couldn't identify it?
He DID identify it as civilian.. shot it down anyway. Barbaric.
Over more than ten years of investigation, Michel Brun has collected and analyzed evidence which indicates
* that KAL 007's off course flight was intentional
* that when the Korean airliner approached Sakhalin Island, so too did a number of U.S. military aircraft some of which had already overflown the Kamchatka Peninsula
* that when a number of them entered Soviet territorial airspace at Sakhalin, a more than two hour air battle was initiated in which some ten U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy aircraft were shot down with the loss of at least thirty U.S. servicemen
* that KAL007 itself appears not to have overflown either Kamchatka or Sakhalin but passed through the Straits just the south of that Soviet island, flew south over the Sea of Japan for at least 45 minutes
* and was then destroyed off Honshu by means and for reasons which remain to be established
Originally posted by Toad
Yes, the B-52's had cruise missiles as well and some of those probably were targeted at key points in the air defence cammand and control system.
Originally posted by Toad
However, I seriously doubt we targeted Minutemen against individual SAM sites; it's preposterous. There were much more important targets for those.. I think it is somewhat doubtful they targeted individual SAM sites with Cruise Missiles; there were better targets for those as well.
Over more than ten years of investigation, Michel Brun has collected and analyzed evidence which indicates
Originally posted by Raven_2
A murder? When policeman see supected running away, shout "Freeze" to him, shot in the air multiple times and only after that, with no reaction from suspected, killing him - is this a murder? Plane didn`t react on any attempts to communicate with it.
Originally posted by Raven_2
It violated USSR territory ~ 15 km deep. And still you call this "murder"?
Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, no bodies were found.
Originally posted by mora
Michel Brun, now there's a source... He's just one out of many KAL007 conspiracy theorists out there.
Originally posted by mora
Not any more or less credible than this one. (http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67958)
Memos In 1992, Russian president Boris Yeltsin disclosed five top-secret memos dating from late 1983, within weeks of the downing of Korean Air Lines Flight 007. These memos were published in the Soviet news magazine, Izvestia, Number 228, October 16, 1992, shortly after being made public....
They are highly significant in showing the attitude of the Soviet leadership towards the US, the UN, its International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and this flight. ....
.... Another interesting fact from these memos is an acknowledgement, contrary to public statements, that the Soviet interceptors made no attempt to contact KAL 007 on the international emergency radio frequency nor did they fire tracers or warning shots.
The fourth memo, to Soviet Premier, Yuri Andropov, states clearly that the Soviets sought to deceive the US and Japan as to the location of the downed plane by performing “Imitation search efforts in the Sea of Japan…” The final memo, also to Andropov, confirms that the Soviets intentionally deceived the US and Japan as to the fact that they had retrieved the Black Boxes from KAL Flight 007 and that they had decided consciously to keep them secret from the rest of the world.
Originally posted by Toad When a fighter shoots down a civilian airliner that he could have forced to land.. that's murder.Yeah... But that's works for Russian only... When USA shoots down civilian air plane then it's guess what?... that's heroic achievement!
Medals of Honor While issuing notes of regret over the loss of human life, the U.S. Government has to-date not admitted any wrongdoing or responsibility in this tragedy, nor apologized, but continues to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy's Commendation Medal for "heroic achievement," his "ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire," enabled him to "quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure."http://www.answers.com/topic/iran-air-flight-655
Us State Department Bulletin Oct 1988
In the case of the Iran Air incident, the damage caused in firing upon #655 was incidental to the lawful use of force. The Government of Iran should not have allowed gunboats to attack our vessels and aircraft. That government also should not have allowed a passenger airline to fly over a battle zone-especially not unless it was equipped and prepared to respond to our Navy's repeated warnings.
The commander of tbe U.S.S. Vincennes evidently believed that his ship was under imminent threat of attack from a hostile aircraft, and he attempted repeatedly to identify or contact the aircraft before taking defensive action. Therefore, the United States does not accept legal responsibility for this incident and is not paying "reparations," a word which implies wrongdoing and is often associated with wartime activities.
Instead, the President has decided to make an ex gratia payment as a humanitarian gesture to the families of the individuals who were on #655. Most of the individuals who tragically and innocently perished in this incident were Iranians. But people from six other countries also reportedly died: India, Italy, Kuwait, Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates, and Yugoslavia. We intend to make no payments to or through the Government of Iran but, instead, to the families of the victims. We may work directly, however, with the governments of the other countries involved, depending on the need for and propriety of such contacts.
Precedents for Payments
An ex gratia payment of this type is consistent with the past practice of the United States and of other nations, with the exception of the Soviet Union.
Currently the United States is discussing with the Government of India ex gratia payment for the death of an Indian fisherman killed by gunfire from the U.S.S. Carr in November 1987.
In 1973 Israel shot down a Libyan Boeing 727 airliner that mistakenly flew over the Israeli-occupied Sinai, killing 106 passengers. We are informed that Israel made an ex gratia payment to Libya.
During the 1967 war, Israeli aircraft attacked the U.S.S. Liberty, killing a number of U.S. servicemen and causing extensive damage. Israel maintained tbat the attack was a justifiable accident but, nonetheless, paid the United States ex gratia compensation.
In 1954 the People's Republic of China (P.R. C.) shot down a U. K. -registered Cathay Pacific plane in the vicinity of Hainan Island, which was en route from Bangkok to Hong Kong. The P.R.C. apologized and indicated that its pilots had mistakenly identified the plane as a military aircraft from Taiwan. The P. R. C. paid compensation to the United Kingdom to be disbursed to the victims' families. Among the victims were six U.S. nationals.
In 1946 an unarmed U.S. transport plane en route from Austria to Italy was shot down by Yugoslav forces. Five U.S. nationals were killed. The Government of Yugoslavia expressed its regret but rejected any responsibility to pay compensation. Yugoslavia did state, however, that it wished "to express its sympathy toward the innocent families of the perished airmen" and to pay lump sums to each of the five closest families. The United States accepted this payment.
Originally posted by Nekto
You hoot down civil airliner that flew in international air-corridor and within Iranian territory, thousands miles from USA. See the difference, sir?
The commander of tbe U.S.S. Vincennes evidently believed that his ship was under imminent threat of attack from a hostile aircraft, and he attempted repeatedly to identify or contact the aircraft before taking defensive action.
Instead, the President has decided to make an ex gratia payment as a humanitarian gesture to the families of the individuals who were on #655. Most of the individuals who tragically and innocently perished in this incident
Originally posted by Nekto
So it's on topic when you are talking about the Korean Boeing here in the "Question to Finns" thread.
PS: You start call us names. No sensible arguments again?
Originally posted by Nekto
I have not the pleasure of knowing any Stalinist-era "apologist" dinosaurs :D I am talking about you, diehard coldwar relicts. Face it :D
16.04.55 10.00 был обнаружен радиотехническими постами американский самолет,
шедший на север вдоль восточного побережья Камчатки. На перехват вражеского
самолета вылетели два дежурных МиГ-15бис 53 смешанного авиакорпуса. В 11.03
один из наших истребителей атаковал американский реактивный самолет Б-47. В
11.14 у острова Беринга, Арчий Камень рыбаки наблюдали столб воды и дыма,
глухой взрыв. Через несколько дней на берегах о-ва Беринга были найдены
обломки и предметы американской принадлежности.
23.06.55 Американский самолет типа <Нептун> в районе зоны ответственности
Старшего Морского Начальника бухты Провидения нарушил нашу государственную
границу. Поднятые наши два МиГ-17 атаковали и сбили американский
самолет-нарушитель.
28.07.55 Министр Обороны Союза ССР запретил открытие огня по всем самолетам
противника, если они даже находятся над нашими территориальными водами или
над нашей сухопутной территорией. Приказано принуждать самолеты нарушители к
посадке только сигналами и эволюциями.
Originally posted by Nekto
I have not the pleasure of knowing any Stalinist-era "apologist" dinosaurs :D I am talking about you, diehard coldwar relicts. Face it :D
Originally posted by Boroda
In late-70s another KAL plane "mixed up" East and West directions, and landed on a frozen lake in the North. When possible - they are landed. When not - sorry.
Sukhoi Su-15TM interceptor jets were sent to intercept the intruder. When both Sukhoi jets were flying next to the Korean airliner, the captain said he slowed down plane and switched on landing lights.
Nevertheless the Su-15 crews were ordered to shoot down the plane.
According to the U.S. the Su-15 pilot for several minutes tried to convince his superiors to cancel the attack, because the aircraft was a civilian Boeing 707 instead of a reconnaisance Boeing RC-135. After an additional order two P-60 rockets were launched.[/u] One of them missed the 707 but the other rocket exploded, severly damaging part of the left wing. Shrapnel punctured the fuselage, causing a rapid decompression and killing two passengers.
The Korean pilot initiated an emergency descent from FL350 to 5000 feet and entered clouds. Both Sukhoi jets lost the 707 in the clouds. The aircraft continued at low altitude, crossing the Kola Peninsula and looking for a place to land. After several unsuccessful attempts in the evening dusk landed on the ice of Korpijдrvi lake. All occupants were rescued by Russian helicopters.
When an earlier Korean airliner (flight 902) was shot down near Murmansk on April 21, 1978, the panicked pilot repeatedly called out to the attacking jets on 121.5MHz, but no reply was ever made – and a Finnish air traffic control tower at Rovaniemi recorded those calls and the absence of any ground or air Soviet responses (apologists have asserted that in 1978, such calls were in fact made but were ignored by the Korean pilot then "as well"). In that case, the Soviet jet demonstrably did not follow ICAO standard procedures.
Originally posted by Boroda
I want to point at the grade of moral corruption of the regime that sends civilian airliners as target-drones for air defence. It is something unthinkable.
Originally posted by Boroda
Your politicians always understood that USSR wants to be left alone, and will never start a global war because of intentions to "enslave" othr nations. Anyway - they planned nuclear genocide of Soviet people. They relied on genocide, because American nukes couldn't make any significant damage to Soviet Army.
Originally posted by Boroda
Face it, mr. "dove of peace". You were searching for weak spots for US nuclear bombers to slaughter millions of innocent people. Think of it before you go to bed.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
And there *was* plan of nuclear bombing of USSR 20 biggest cities by USA at that time.
So, it was *you*, who want to genocide all soviets. And cold war from soviet side was just at deffensive state.
Sure, you want do this by yourself :-)[/b]
Toad, why you still don`t give Mexica stolen land? It`s ~1/3 of your territory.
September 1961
At this time, the Soviet Union also unexpectedly exploded the largest nuclear device in history, equal to 57 million tons of TNT. The Soviet Union had voluntarily stopped testing nuclear devices three years before, and Khrushchev had assured President Kennedy in June 1961 that the Soviet Union wouldn't test nuclear devices if the United States didn't.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
And that is why you, guys, still occupies only Afganistan, Iraq (Siria, Livia, Iran, North Korea...)
Originally posted by Nekto
No, I think, you are not right there. "10 years without the right for correspondence" it was just what relatives were told. My grandmother recieved the official letter with these words about her brother. He was executed in 1937. And I saw his name in the list to be executed. http://stalin.memo.ru/images/intro.htm (in Russian).
So, I think the whole numbers of executed are correct.
Our TV said that to us[/b]
And you have military bases on Afganistan territory. You still have bases on Japan territory![/b]
There were communist revolution in that country and our government was forced (by government ideology) to help[/b]
You think that number of parties means democracy?[/b]
1. 1824 Puerto Rico (then Spanish territory). Commodore David Porter and a landing party attacks the town of Fajardo which had harbored "pirates" and insulted U.S. naval officers. Porter lands with 200 men in November and forces an apology.
2. 1835-1836 Mexico. So-called Texan War of Independence. Huge pieces of Mexico north of the Rio Grande are seized by invading U.S. ranchers and slave-owners. Texas temporarily becomes the "Lone Star Republic" under Sam Houston. U.S. General Gaines occupies Nocagdoches, Texas during the war under guise of an imagined threat of "Indian outbreak."
3. 1842 Mexican California. Commodore T.A.C. Jones, in command of a squadron cruising off California, occupies Monterey, California on October 19, believing that war had come. He discovers he is premature and withdraws. A similar incident occurs a week later at San Diego.
4. 1844 Mexico. President Tyler deploys U.S. forces to protect Texas from Mexico pending Senate approval of a treaty of annexation.
5. 1846-8 Mexico. United States declares war with Mexico. President Polk orders occupation of disputed territory between Nueces and Rio Grande to provoke the war. California, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, Texas and parts of other states are secured for the U.S. Mexico City itself (the Halls of Montezuma) is secured through bitter fighting.
6. 1853 Nicaragua. March 11 through 13. Troops land "to protect American interests during a revolution."
7. 1854 Nicaragua. July 9 through 15. San Juan del Norte (Greytown) is destroyed to avenge an insult to the U.S. Minister to Nicaragua.
8. 1856 Republic of New Grenada (now Panama). Troops land to protect U.S. interests during an insurrection. September 19-22.
9. 1857 Nicaragua. U.S. forces land twice.
10. 1859 Mexico.200 soldiers cross the Rio Grande in pursuit of the Mexican resistance leader Juan Cortina.
11. 1860 Colombia (the Bay of Panama). Troops land to protect U.S. interests during a revolution. September 27 to October 8.
12. 1865 Panama. March 9 and 10. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during a revolution.
13. 1866 Mexico. To protect U.S. lives, General Sedgwick and 100 men obtain the surrender of Matamoros; Sedgwick is ordered to withdraw after success, and his action is "officially repudiated by the President."
14. 1868 Colombia. April 7. Troops land "to protect passengers and treasure" in transit during political disturbances following the death of the President of Colombia.
15. 1873 Colombia (Bay of Panama). May 7 through 22, September 23 to October 9. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during hostilities over the possessions of the government of the State of Panama.
16. 1876
Mexico. May 18. Troops enter Mexico to "police the town of Matamoros temporarily while it was without other government."
17. 1885 Panama (Colуn). January 18 and 19. To guard the valuables in transit over the Panama Railway and the safes and vaults of the company during revolutionary activity. In the months of March, April and May in the cities of Colуn and Panama to "reestablish freedom of transit" during political disturbances.
18. 1888 Haiti. December 20—"to persuade the Haitian government to give up an American steamer which had been seized on the charge of breach of blockade."
1890 The United States organizes the "Pan-American Union" to hasten its plans to transform Latin America into its own "backyard."
19. 1891 Haiti. "To protect American lives and property on Navassa Island when Negro laborers got out of control."
20. 1894 Nicaragua. July 6 to August 7. To protect U.S. interests in Bluefield following a change of power.
21. 1896 Nicaragua. May 2-4. To protect U.S. interests in Corinto during political unrest.
22. 1898 Nicaragua. February 7-8. To protect San Juan del Sur.
23. 1898 Spanish-American War declared. United States seizes Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain (not to mention colonies like the Philippines in other regions of the world.)
24. 1898-1902 Cuba. U.S. troops occupy Cuba, suppressing the anti-Spanish nationalist forces they supposedly went in to support and establishing colonial rule.
25. 1899 Nicaragua. To protect U.S. interests at San Juan del Norte, February 22 to March 5, and at Bluefields a few weeks later in connection with internal political disturbances—in this case, a military coup.
26. 1901 Puerto Rico. U.S. troops occupy the island after the defeat of the Spanish colonialists.
27. 1901 Colombia (the State of Panama). November 20 to December 4. To protect U.S. property on the Isthmus and to keep transit lines open during serious political disturbances.
28. 1902 Colombia. April 16-23. To protect U.S. lives and property at Bocas del Toro during civil war.
29. 1902 Colombia (State of Panama). September 17 to November 18. Troops land to place armed guards on all trains crossing the Isthmus and to keep the railroad line open.
30. 1903 Honduras. March 23-31. To protect the U.S. consulate and the steamship wharf at Puerto Cortйs during a period of political disturbances.
31. 1903 Dominican Republic. March 30 to April 21. To protect U.S. interests in the city of Santo Domingo.
32. 1903 Panama. A U.S.-instigated coup d'йtat leads to a "declaration of independence" from Colombia. Hardly by coincidence, the U.S. cruiser Nashville, sent days earlier from California, arrives to back up the "rebellion." Source of dispute is Colombia's terms for an Isthmus Canal. U.S. troops occupy Panama for 11 years with only brief interruptions.
33. 1904 Dominican Republic. January 2 to February 11. Troops land in Puerto Plata, Susua, and Santo Domingo.
34. 1904 Panama. November 17-24. Troops land at Ancon.
35. 1905 Honduras. Troops land at Puerto Cortйs.
36. 1906-09 Cuba. Troops land "to restore order, protect foreigners and establish a stable government."
37. 1907 Honduras. March through June. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during a war between Honduras and Nicaragua; troops are stationed in Trujillo, Ceiba, Puerto Cortйs, San Pedro, Laguna and Choloma.
38. 1910 Nicaragua. February 22. Troops land at Corinto to get information on the political conditions prevailing in the country following a civil war. And from May 19 to September 4 to protect U.S. interests at Bluefields.
39. 1911 Honduras. January 26, lasting for several weeks. Troops land to protect U.S. interests during political disturbances. President Taft meanwhile forces both Nicaragua and Honduras to hand over rights to custom duties and railway and steamship transportation between the two oceans.
40. 1912 Honduras. A small force lands to prevent seizure by the government of a U.S.-owned railroad at Puerto Cortйs.
41. 1912 Panama. U.S. troops supervise the elections being held outside the Canal Zone.
42. 1912 Cuba. June 5 to August 5. Troops land to protect U.S. interests and occupy the province of Oriente and the city of Havana.
43. 1912-25 Nicaragua. Landing of 2,700 Marines to protect U.S. interests during "an attempted revolution." U.S. troops stay for 13 years as a tripwire—or in the words of the U.S. government, "as a promoter of peace and government stability." Less than two years after the troops left, they returned.
44. 1912 Mexico. September 5-7. Marines land at Claris Estero to aid in evacuating U.S. citizens and others from Yaqui Valley, made dangerous because of "civil strife."
1914 Panama Canal is completed.
45. 1914 Haiti. January 29 to February 9, February 20-21, and again on October 19. U.S. troops land three times "to protect American nationals in a time of dangerous unrest." Soon they return, to stay decades.
46. 1914 Dominican Republic. June and July. "During a revolution movement, the United States naval forces by gunfire stopped the bombardment of Puerto Plata and by threat of force maintained Santo Domingo City as a neutral zone."
47. 1914-1917 Mexico. The United States wages a campaign of undeclared hostilities aimed at the growing Mexican Revolution. Twice (in 1914 and 1916) major incursions occur. Veracruz is seized. And General Pershing conducts invasions of northern Mexico, hunting the revolutionary Pancho Villa.
48. 1915-34 Haiti. A 19-year occupation starts with the landing of U.S. troops to end "a period of chronic and threatened insurrection."
49. 1916-24 Dominican Republic. Eight-year occupation, using the justification of "chronic and threatened insurrection."
50. 1917 Virgin Islands. The United States invades.
51. 1917-33 Cuba. A 16-year occupation of Cuba to protect U.S. interests during times of "unsettled conditions."
52. 1918-1919 Mexico. After the withdrawal of the Pershing expedition, U.S. troops enter Mexico at least three times in 1918 and six times in 1919 "in pursuit of bandits," a name commonly given to revolutionary Mexican forces. In August 1918, U.S. troops engage Mexican forces at Nogales.
53. 1918-20 Panama. U.S. troops land "for police duty according to treaty stipulations" at Chiriqui—to maintain control during elections.
54. 1919 Honduras. September 8-12. "A landing force was sent ashore to maintain order in a neutral zone during an attempted revolution." Occupation of Honduras's major ports.
55. 1920 Guatemala. April 9-27. To protect U.S. interests, including the cable station, during fighting between Unionists and the government of Guatemala.
56. 1921 Panama and Costa Rica. U.S. naval squadrons appear on both sides of the Isthmus to place pressure on both of the countries involved in a boundary dispute.
57. 1924 Honduras. February 28 to March 31, September 10 to 15. U.S. troops land "to protect American lives and interests" during elections.
58. 1925 Honduras. April 19-21. Troops land "to protect foreigners at La Ceiba during a political upheaval."
59. 1925 Panama. October 12-23. "Strikes and rent riots led to the landing of about 600 American troops to keep order and protect American interests."
60. 1926-1933 Nicaragua. An upheaval of revolutionary activity leads to the landing of 5,000 Marines "to protect the interests of the United States." The National Guard of the Somoza family is established to rule into the future. U.S. forces engage in major operations against the revolutionary Sandino in 1928. After their withdrawal, Sandino is deceived and finally assassinated by the U.S.-trained Somoza forces in 1934. The consolidated military dictatorship rules for 45 years.
61. 1932 El Salvador. U.S. warships stand off the coast during El Salvador's matanza (massacre). In the first weeks, Salvadoran army and paramilitary forces kill over 30,000 people. By the time it's over, 4 percent of the population is murdered. The suppression of this uprising leads to a military dictatorship that rules almost unchallenged for over 30 years.
1933 Roosevelt announces ``Good Neighbor'' policy. In the following period, U.S. investment in Latin America as a whole rises rapidly, reaching $1.54 billion and making up 35 percent of total U.S. foreign investment in 1936.
62. 1933 Cuba. U.S. naval forces organize a "demonstration" of 30 warships off the Cuban coast during a challenge to the power of President Gerardo Machado.
63. 1937. Puerto Rico. Major massacre of Puerto Ricans demonstrating against U.S. authorities.
64. 1940 Throughout the Caribbean. As part of the World War 2 U.S.-British imperialist alliance, U.S. troops are sent to guard air and naval bases formerly controlled by Britain on Bermuda, St. Lucia, Bahamas, Jamaica, Antigua, Trinidad and British Guiana.
1948
Organization of American States is founded.
65. 1954 Guatemala. The CIA overthrow of a government daring to expropriate some land owned by the United Fruit Company requires the use of invading force. Right-wing exiles are forged into an army for invading Guatemala, while the ground forces are backed up with aerial bombing of Guatemala City. The bombing triggers an internal coup, based in U.S.-trained military forces and the church.
1959 Cuba. Revolution against U.S.-backed dicator Batista, Castro comes to power.
1960 Central American Common Market is established.
66. 1961 Cuba. Abortive CIA-backed Bay of Pigs invasion. This is followed by uncounted landings on the island by CIA forces to sabotage, conduct bacteriological warfare, assassinate, contact internal operatives, and carry out other armed and hostile acts.
1961 Alliance for Progress is signed.
67. 1962 Cuba. The Cuban Missile Crisis, centered around a U.S. naval blockade to force the withdrawal of Soviet medium-range missiles. Backed by the threat of all-out invasion.
68. 1965 Dominican Republic. 20,000 U.S. Marines invade in May (only a month after the first landing of regular U.S. troops in South Vietnam) to suppress a revolutionary uprising. An estimated 2,500 civilians killed.
69. 1966 Guatemala. The first death squads appear, closely linked with the United States. Between 1966 and 1976 they are responsible for at least 20,000 deaths. (This is standard operating procedure throughout the region.)
70. 1979 Nicaragua. Following the overthrow of Somoza, regroupment starts of what is to become a U.S.-led and trained army of counterrevolutionaries (Contras) based in neighboring Honduras and Costa Rica.
1979 Caribbean Joint Task Force is set up in Florida.
71. 1981 El Salvador. Along with increased U.S. military assistance to the puppet government fighting revolutionary forces, U.S. military "advisers" start arriving in increasing numbers.
72. 1980-84 Honduras is turned into a U.S. military base.
73. 1983 Grenada. U.S. invasion four years after the New Jewel Movement overthrew the U.S-backed Gairy government.
74. 1987 Nicaragua. May. The U.S. military conducts a massive ``training exercise'' near Nicaragua. Code-named Solid Shield, the exercise involves 50,000 troops.
75. 1988 Honduras. March. Using the excuse that Nicaraguan troops ``crossed the border'' in pursuit of the Contras, the U.S. sends 3,500 troops to Honduras.
76. 1989 Panama. December. Bush sends 20,000 troops to invade this country using the excuse that Manuel Noriega is a major "international drug lord." The real reason: the U.S. wants to assure control over this country where SOUTHCOM, headquarters for all U.S. military operations south of Mexico, is located.
77. 1994 Haiti. September. Clinton sends 20,000 troops to invade and occupy this country, claiming to "restore democracy." Real reason is to restore tight U.S. control over the country, its military and police.
78. 2000. In January, the Clinton administration announces a $1.6 billion plan to build up the Colombian government and paramilitary forces for a two-year invasion into southern Colombia.
79. 2000. On May 4, U.S. federal agents carry out an operation to remove hundreds of protesters camped out on the U.S. Naval base on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques. The "People's Zone" encampments are part of a movement demanding the U.S. stop using Vieques as a bombing range.
1933 Roosevelt announces ``Good Neighbor'' policy. In the following period, U.S. investment in Latin America as a whole rises rapidly, reaching $1.54 billion and making up 35 percent of total U.S. foreign investment in 1936.
The curfew was imposed one month after the rape of a 12-year-old Okinawa schoolgirl by three U.S. servicemen in September 1995. In May, an insurance saleswoman in her 20s was also hit on the face with a hammer to death. In October, futhermore, a F15 fighter of Kadena Air Base fell in the 120 times crash since 1972. Burdened with Bases, all Okinawa people was filled with rage at the crimes, and 85,000 residents gathered all-island rally against U.S. bases and crimes due to the military on October21, 1995.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
BTW, according to your words, France, Deutsch and all arabic countires TV are full of krap, cause in case of Iraq they anti-american. Germans are stalinists also?
Occupied Afganistan during WW2? Toad, you must be overheated...
Stole is stole. Compensated or not.
Originally posted by Toad Now take either one of the two KAL airliners your pilots shot down AFTER HAVING VISUALLY IDENTIFIED THE AIRCRAFT AS CIVILIAN AIRLINERS.That's a lie as usual. In 1983 KAL was shot down at night and our pilot didn't know it was civilian. http://shura.kulichki.net/interest/kal007/ (In Russian)
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
You point the gun onto someone head, take his Rolex watch for 20.000$ and then force him to sign "contract" by which he sells to you his watch for 20$ - you call this "legal agreement"?
[/b]
Maybe this would a news for you, but japans thinks that Okinawa IS part of Japan.
I showed you only one small sample that you lie. Okinawa WANT USA occupation end.Okinawa WANT USA occupation end.
Originally posted by bikekil
"#) I thought it's obvious from my appreciation of the wise decision of Polish government (real GOVERNMENT of Poland on Polish territories before 17.IX.1939)) and the direct order of the Polish Commander-in-Chief (before Sikorski) :
NOT TO DECLARE WAR ON THE SOVIET UNION,
but limit the armed conflict between the USSR and Poland to the BORDER CONFLICT using only the Polish border guard troops - that's what I also would have done if I were trained in the art of diplomacy.
Your brave grandfather who fought (in the Polish Army, I guess ?) against the Soviet Red Army did it in violation of the direct order of the Polish Commander-in-Chief."
and you still call it a border conflict? sorry, Red Army invader my country and took a great share of the land. Polish Army (not only a border guard) fought with them (as my grandpa did and i'm very proud of him). It's obvious that as a soldier he was following his orders. This point you made insulting even my sense of humor... so i don't see any point in continuing the thread (on my side anyway) about Soviet invasion on 17.IX.1939 if it was a border conflict for you :) Live with your dreams :)
"#) There were NO POLISH GOVERNMENT after 17.IX.1939 because Romania agreed to accept the presence on her territory of only private Polish citizens but NOT THE POLISH GOVERNMENT (!), and the members of the Polish government agreed to their status of private Polish citizens. Later on the members of the FORMER POLISH GOVERNMENT assembled in London and PROCLAIMED THEMSELVES ' POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE' (a diplomatic term denoting the status of the former government which is still claiming to be a legitimate governing body). So, there were NO POLISH GOVERNMENT but there was the POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE."
happened that this goverment that according to your claim was not a Polish goverment (or at least had no right to be) was respected by ALL or the Allier countries (including Soviets) and also this goverment were commanding 4th biggest military power at the later stage of the WW2 (after Soviets, Americans, and GB). Sorry, but whatever you will say, those were not a bunch of guys from nowhere who just sit their bottoms in London :)
"#) To the so-called "Ribbentrop - Molotov pact" there were made in September and October of 1939 important changes by Hitler and Stalin, so
that instead of "half of our [Polish] lands" (as you said) the Soviet Union received only the internationally accepted ('Lord Curson line') territories of Western Belorussia and Western Ukraine (Belorussia and Ukraine were the constituent republics of the USSR).
Now you can address your claims to the newly independent republics of Belorussia and Ukraine. "
See, i have no claims to this lands, butr please quite the point where i said i have nay claims to it? Still can't find it? that's what i thought. :) Belorussia and Ukraine have his lands and i'm very happy about it. I refered to the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact couintering your funny theory about border conflict :) Face it, Soviets attacked Poland on 17.IX.1939 (cowardly, without declaring a war) and Sovets wanted to grab some lands who actually were a Polish lands. Of course, the border was never agreed between Poles and Soviets, but you know what? Now it's the same between Poland and Germany, because after WW2 Stalin forced a new borders for our country and "Allies" accepted... do you see any reason for us to attack germans or opposite? Please say so, so i could laugh some more :)
#) My congratulations, you are the first Polak that I know who admits Polish crimes against Soviet POWs.
#) About heroic Pilsudski.
One of my colleagues, a Polak, called PilsudskiQuote"Polish Hitler". [/b]
A powewr of democracy can do a miracles huh? :) I'm not the only one who knows about crimes of Pilsudski (there were more POW's killed by him then by the Soviets in Katyn (but if you add the Syberia ;) ). I'm far from calling him a Hitler, but he surely is responsible for a lot of human beings... right after Hitler and Stalin... and probably many more. Anyway... power of democracy. freedom of speech - know what it is?
"#) About Ukrainian crimes against Polish people..."
From what i know both sides appologised for his crimes and that's the good start... hopefully. [/B]
Bik, the fulfledged Polish government decided NOT TO DECLARE WAR ON THE USSR because of the Soviet declaration about [quote from the official declaration of the Soviet government] "Liberation Expedition of the Red Army into the western Ukraine and western Belorussia".
In correspondence with this decision of the Polish government, the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Army Ryzd-Smigly made a direct order not to fight the Red Army. This order specially stated that only the Polish border guard troops should engage the attacking Red Army units.
On September 17,1939 the USSR embassy in Warsaw was visited by the representatives of the Polish general Rummel, the commander of the Warsaw defence. They informed the Soviet side that according to the order by the Polish Commander-in-Chief they are not fighting the Red Army.
At 9 A.M. on September 18,1939 Polish colonel Ya. Okulich-Kozarin, garrison commander in Vilno (now Vilnius, capital of Lithuania) issued the following orderQuote: "We are not in the state of war with the Bolsheviks, the [Polish Army] units on [my] additional order will leave Vilno and cross the Lithuanian border; the non-combat units may begin leaving the city, the combat units stay on their positions but can not fire without the order."[end of quote] On the same day at about 20:00 after the battle against the Red Army tanks colonel Okulich-Kozarin gave the order to withdraw the Polish Army units from the city and sent subcolonel T. Podvysotsky to inform the Soviet command that the Polish side does not want to fight the Red Army and to demand also the withdrawal of the Red army troops from the city. After colonel Okulich-Kozarin left Vilno, subcolonel Podvysotsky returned to the city at about 21:00 and decided to defend it, issueing at about 21:45 an order stopping the withdrawal of the Polish units. In the fight against attacking Red Army tanks took part volunteer units consisting of Polish Gimnasium students. When subcolonel Podvysotsky saw that the greater part of the regular Polish troops and headquarters had already left the city, he could do nothing but decide at about 22:30 to abandon the city and withdraw towards the Lithuanian border. In the battle for Vilno the units of the 11th Soviet army lost 13 men KIA, 24 WIA; five tanks and four armoured vehicles. The Red Army near Vilno and in the city took about ten thousand Polish POWs.
Too many words, but this was pretty much a typical example of the situation in Poland
after 17.X.1939. So, Bik, the President of Poland and his Commander-in-Chief were not traitors, as some Polaks still think, they were just much wiser than Sikorsky and they DID NOT DECLARE WAR ON THE USSR but limited (at least at official diplomatic level) the whole situation to a BORDER CONFLICT. And Sikorsky who intrigued himself first into Ryzd-Smigly's position and then was catapulted into the chair of the head of the POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE was a fool declaring war on the USSR. You are right about the fact that with this GOVERNMENT IN EXILE the Soviet Union had diplomatic relations. My mistake: Polish minister Bek declined private status for his government.
Originally posted by Raven_2
You don`t understand. Communism is a form of democracy. But it works in other way. Communism is direct democracy. . ....
Elections? Why? People rule by themself. ... There were no "elite".
Note again I didn't say the Mexican-American war was justified. It wasn't. OTOH, there was some compensation. Unlike say... occupying Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, the German Democratic Republic (East Germany), Hungary, Poland, and Romania for about 50 years or so. [END OF QUOTE]
Toad, it is not a trap, but you are just driving yourself into the corner because the USA is still occupying the Germany and Japan for about 60 years or so.
:rolleyes: :D
Originally posted by Nekto
That's a lie as usual. In 1983 KAL was shot down at night and our pilot didn't know it was civilian. http://shura.kulichki.net/interest/kal007/ (In Russian)
Originally posted by Raven_2
... there were no communism at Stalyn time, but ... "voenniy communism" at this time.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
Three serviceman. At once. With 12 years old girl.
Three U.S. servicemen were convicted Thursday in the kidnapping and rape of a 12-year-old Okinawa girl and sentenced to up to seven years in a Japanese prison.
So, I called you words a lie. At least, for me. Cause for me country == people. And for you country == government.[/b]
Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, it is not a trap, but you are just driving yourself into the corner because the USA is still occupying the Germany and Japan for about 60 years or so.
65. 1954 Guatemala. The CIA overthrow of a government daring to expropriate some land owned by the United Fruit Company requires the use of invading force. Right-wing exiles are forged into an army for invading Guatemala, while the ground forces are backed up with aerial bombing of Guatemala City. The bombing triggers an internal coup, based in U.S.-trained military forces and the church. [end of quote]
I have to add to the last sentence of the above :Quote"Two weeks later [after June 2nd, 1954], the CIA quite literally dropped the bomb. Mercenary pilots flew B26 raids over Guatemala,..." "The CIA planes went back into action, bombing and strafing the major cities, including the capital, Guatemala City. ..." [END OF QUOTE] \See pp. 28-29 in the book 'CIA.Secrets of "The Company"' by Mick Farren published in New York by Barnes & Noble Books, 2004 (ISBN 0-7607-59634).\
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Holden
>>Sounds kind of elitist to me.
From what source are this citation? And there were no communism at Stalyn time, but ... "voenniy communism" at this time. Don`t know how to translate without shattering sense.
BTW, people, who count voices decide everything in any democratic country too :-) There a lot of rumors about voiting machines in USA, you know :-)
Originally posted by Toad
Here, let me help you grow.
I'll say: The Mexican-American war was not justified, it was wrong. The US should not have entered into the war between the Texans and the Mexicans.
Now YOU say: The Soviet invasion of Poland was not justified, it was wrong. The USSR should not have attacked Poland when it was trying to fight off the Nazi invaders.
See? It's not that hard to be honest.
Originally posted by Toad
Would it have made any difference at all? Remember, in 1978 KAL 902, another airliner that had been clearly identified as civilian was shot down by a pilot ordered to destroy the aircraft.
As the inquiry progresses the pilot of Flight 902, Captain Kim Chang Ky and the aeronavigator Li Chin Sin admitted they understood orders of Soviet fighters but refused to obey.
Originally posted by Toad
There are no American tanks mandating who rules in Japan or Germany. If you try to make that case you show yourself to be even more of a fool. Go ahead, tell the German and Japanese posters here that their governments are mandated by the US military. They'll laugh even harder at you. [/B]
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Is that kind of like saying, "There are no horses in that field, only brown horses are in that field"?
Just search Stalin Quotes, you will find numerous sources.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
genozaur,
Forward deployment does not equal occupation.
Forward deployment is basing troops on foreign soil by mutual agreement. US troops are in Germany by NATO agreement.
Occupation is basing troops on foreign soil by force. Soviet tanks in Prague in August '68 was invasion followed by occupation.
Okinawa was occupied until 1972 when sovereignty was passed to the Japanese. If the Japanese wish us to go, we would have to do so, just like we left the bases of Clark and Subic Bay in the Phillipines when our welcome ran out in PI.
One can make the argument that Okinawa is presently occupied by Japan, as it was an independant country prior to 1880.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Toad, about parties.
You don`t understand. Communism is a form of democracy. But it works in other way. Communism is direct democracy. There were no elected candidates that represents people. People rule directly, throught local labour organizations. For example, my parents flat was given to them by fabric they worked, I goes into school, builded on fabric money, all teachers were payed from fabric money also and so on. This called "shefstvo", something like "patronage". Fabrics, ruled by labour unions ("profsoyuz"), built all needed infrastructure for their workers - schools, hospitals, houses, stadiums and so on.
Elections? Why? People rule by themself. Only thing, that was ruled by government is foreign poltitics and main vectors of industrial development. That was The Party exist for. And Party was opened for ALL people. Anyone can join it - and anyone can get up to the Kreml. Gorbachev was combine driver. Yeltsin was builder. There were no "elite".
Party was opened for anyone for join. So, party represent opinion of anyone. There were discussions, there were wings.
"One party = totalitarism" only in western liberal democracy model. And we have different model. And it work for us.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Genozaur, you are so clever to bring up things that do not have anything to do with your false assertion that the US troops occupy Germany or Japan.
I will type slowly so you can maybe get this.
Forward deployment:
We have troops in Germany and Japan because of mutual agreements.
We had an agreement with PI, but when the Phillipine Senate voted against extending the presence of Clark and Subic leases, we left.
Same would go for Germany and Japan. Should those governments decide that we should go home, we would leave, following whatever rules are laid down in the agreements we and they have signed.
If you wish you may study the politics of the Peloponnesian War and see if Sparta had a similar relationship with Thebes, but it really does not make any difference to Germany, Japan, and the United States if you do.
Originally posted by bikekil
Genozaur,
I can't see any reason why should i care about your historical education, so believe what you want to believe and think what you want to think.. i'm fine withi it.
Here is a map - looks like a border conflict to you? Or does the Soviets climed that Warsaw (as a border line is there) was ever a part of them country? Interesting...
(http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/granica.jpg)
and here a map signed by ribbentrop and Stalin:
(http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/mapa.jpg)
yeah.. a border conflict, where Soviet liberated Ukraine and Belorussia.. the same way like later liberated us.. for more then 40 years :D
Glad that we liberated ourselves in '89 and Ukraine just did it recently :)
you can also look here:
http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/tankista.htm
http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/slub1.jpg
In my opinion the discussion about the Soviet Invasion on our lands won't change anything. facts are like they are, everyone will think what he think, so why to argue? From my or Polish point of view your opinion does not change anything... you have your right to think the same.
That or other way... you about 300 posts ago i said it's pointless.. and i was right ;)
Originally posted by genozaur
Was there a moment in time when the USA occupation of Germany and Japan ended (i.e. the occupational troops withdrew from the occupied countries) ?
Originally posted by genozaur
Tell me one thing. Was there a moment in time when the USA occupation of Germany and Japan ended (i.e. the occupational troops withdrew from the occupied countries) ?
Originally posted by Toad
LOL!
Deny, deny, deny.
I wasn't referring to the Soviet murder of the civilians on KAL 007.
I was referring to the multiple Soviet murders of US military personnel flying recon aircraft in ICAO International Airspace.
During the Cold War period of 1945-1977, a total of more than forty reconnaissance aircraft were shot down in the European and Pacific areas.
It's true that a few of these had gone off course and entered Soviet airspace.
Instead of escorting them OUT of Soviet airspace like we did with your Bears that strayed into our airspace down the East Coast of the US on their way to Cuba, YOU them down.
Shooting down unarmed transport category aircraft, like C-130's,that strayed into your airspace. And you wonder why you are viewed as barbarians. :rofl
Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, foreign reconnaissance aircraft (even unarmed ones as you claim) were always considered by the Soviet military doctrine (and still are considered by Russia and some other countries) as presenting grave danger for the defence system, so they were, are, and will be shot down without mercy. God bless the souls of the dead pilots. But you better talk to your former commanders who perfectly knew the Soviet rules of engagement for such situations.
Originally posted by Toad
I'm actually HAPPY that you try to justify the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007.
It just proves the point even better.
It fits perfectly with your denial of Katyn.
The world knows what the Soviets did, even if you do not.
I think it's important to record the fact that there are still Russians denying these barbarous acts.
You want to know why the world views Russians as barbaric? Because of Russians like you!
Originally posted by Thrawn
Was there a moment in time when the USA was asked to leave? Does Japan and Germany have a democratically elected government or are they answerable to the USA? If so, I am given pause to Germany's position on the invasion of Iraq. Must be some double plus good US conspiracy. :rolleyes:
Hey the US has military personel stationed in every NATO country, I guess they are occupying them as well. Hey wait a second, Canada has military personel stationed in the US! Does that mean that Canada is also occupying the US? :confused:
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So as long as it's policy, it's not barbaric.... got it.
Originally posted by Raven_2
You think that KV-1 (Klim Voroshilov) and JS-1 (Joseph Stalin) tank were bad?
Originally posted by genozaur
Bik, that's why you nation is so miserable now.
Because you are unable to appreciate your own wise people, and you don't want to listen to anybody else's good advice.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was non-agression pact, not alliance. In such way you can claim that USA and nazi was allies, cause there lend-lease system between them.
Originally posted by bikekil
Genozaur,
Our nation is doing better and better every year since we kicked commies outta here in '89, but thanks for your concern :-)
Originally posted by Nekto
I've read Russian sites about this case and they tell the story quite otherwise. Pilot didn't know for sure it was a civilian plane. It behaved as a mature spy-in-the-sky.
http://nvo.ng.ru/printed/history/2004-06-11/5_karelia.html (in Russian)
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, as usual - your propaganda lies contradict with relaity. Maybe it's time to rethink some things?
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Genozaur, the Russians suffered so badly in WW2 because Stalin purged the military of anyone who Josef figured was a personal threat. There was no leadership in the army, because they were all dead or in Siberian work camps.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The economy of the Soviet Union was a mess, because Stalin and the central committee followed the stupid policy of central control of the economy. So the economic engine that wins wars was not in existance in the USSR.
Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, maybe he will rethink trying to argue with such a brainwashed person.
Originally posted by MiloMorai
It is good that the Allies were fighting the Germans in the MTO for those German troops would have helped in their fight against the Commies.
Originally posted by Boroda
I need to introduce another pathetic member of this discussion to Nekto and Raven, as they are new to this forum. This (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142666) will help you to understand his position.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Allied occupation of Japan ended in 1952, with the exeption of Okinawa, (1972) and Iwo Jima (1973)
Allied occupation of (west) Germany ended in 1955.
They had formal ceremonies and everything. I'm sure it must have made the papers.
Originally posted by genozaur
I was not asking about ceremonial tea parties.
My question is plain and simple : when did the USA occupational forces leave Germany and
Japan ? Obviously, they did not do it in 1952, 1955, 1972, 1973.
Or maybe they really left and the Germans and the Japanese just do not know about it ?
:rofl :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So as long as it's policy, it's not barbaric.... got it.
USSR have built industry from nothing in 10 years, and then relocated it to Urals and Siberia in a few months in 1941-42.
Now I should repeat that American participation in defeating Japanese ground forces was a minor factor compared to Soviet Manchurian operation in August 1945.
3 German divisions in North Africa. 1% of a force fighting at the Eastern Front.
Originally posted by Boroda
USSR have built industry from nothing in 10 years, and then relocated it to Urals and Siberia in a few months in 1941-42.
You call it a mess? No other economy in the world could do things like that. No other economy then super-efficient planned economy of Stalinist USSR could rebuild country from a complete ruin and reach a pre-war production level by 1947, in two years after the war.
These are facts, without any political or humaitarian attitude. We survived. Anyone at our place didn't have a slightest chance.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Holden
>>So this "you take the east half and we will take the west half" agreement to partition Poland was non-agression?
You can open any encyclopedia and see that this pact was formaly non-agression pact. (BTW, how would you call Muchen agreement, then?)
And what you think about part of CZ occupation by Poland in 1938, with nazi? Poland, Germans and Hungary attack CZ - so, according to your logic, poles were nazi ally (cause they both attacked one country). And CZ was by USSR/France protectorate by that time (France betray them and they reject USSR help). Nazi ally attack USSR ally - again, according to your logic.
And now you blame Soviets for counter-attack in 1939? :-)
Originally posted by genozaur
I was not asking about ceremonial tea parties.
My question is plain and simple : when did the USA occupational forces leave Germany and
Japan ? Obviously, they did not do it in 1952, 1955, 1972, 1973.
Or maybe they really left and the Germans and the Japanese just do not know about it ?
:rofl :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Boroda
I love when people try to apply logics to propaganda slogans
Originally posted by Raven_2
And this guy call commies stupid :-)
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Thrawn
>>So many geniuses in the USSR, but it took you decades to realise that communism is an inefficiant economic model.
Well, maybe in a few decades you realize, that *communism* it`s not an economic model at all? It`s like call "monarchy" an economic model.
So - China are still commie. And they have 40% of USA 9.000 billions external debt. Think about it. It`s about economic efficiency of liberal democracy and communism form of organizing society :-)
And this guy call commies stupid :-)
Sure. And thats why they still trade with us. If we block gas transporting to them, they die out. Why we tolerate to their bla-bla, then? Well, while they pay with EU money for our gas, we can ignore that.
Originally posted by bikekil
Raven,
Nazi Germany attacked poland on 1.09.1939. While Polish Army were still defending against the Germans Soviets attacked Poland on 17.09.1939
It thing that it's a fact that both armies attacked Poland at once.
It's insane to call Poland and Gemrnany and Allies so i won't comment that one more.
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Genozaur, the Russians suffered so badly in WW2 because Stalin purged the military of anyone who Josef figured was a personal threat. There was no leadership in the army, because they were all dead or in Siberian work camps.
The economy of the Soviet Union was a mess, because Stalin and the central committee followed the stupid policy of central control of the economy. So the economic engine that wins wars was not in existance in the USSR.
As some of my ancestry is Pima Indian, I can easily say genocidal foreign invaders took over my country.
My previous observation seems to be gaining strength.
:
SOVIET INDUSTRY. The sheer scale of Soviet war industry is difficult to imagine. ... Within six months [after the start of the war in June 1941] 1532 [one thousand five hundred thirty two] factories had been dismantled and shipped east to their new locations [including 226 to Caucasus, 667 to Urals, 308 to Central Asia, 322 to Siberia]. By mid-1942, only about 300 [three hundred] of these plants had not restarted production.
... Soviet industry produced 238,000,000 [two
hundred thirty eight million] tons of munitions in 1942, in comparison with 63,000,000 [sixty three million] tons in 1940 - and this despite the disruption created when the factories were moved. Between 1943 and 1945, the Soviet Union produced more than 80,000 [eighty thousand] aircraft, 73,000 [seventy three thousand] armoured vehicles {this means tanks and self-propelled armoured artillery - G.S.} and 324,000 [three hundred twenty four thousand] artillery pieces. Factories such as that at Cheliabinsk {in southern Urals - G.S.} were colossal - the plant had no fewer than 64 [sixty four] assembly lines.
There were some deficiencies in this mammoth effort - over two thirds of motor transport in Soviet service in 1945 came from the Western Allies. Britain and America also supplied a considerable number of aircraft and other items. However, even this contribution was dwarfed by indigenous production : 14,795 [fourteen thousand seven hundred ninety five] aircraft reached the Soviet Union from the United States during the war, a figure representing about four months' Soviet aircraft production." [END OF QUOTE FROM PAGE 113]
[QUOTE FROM PAGES 112-113] :
THE DISPERSAL OF SOVIET INDUSTRY.
One of Stalin's major achievements [sic!-G.S.] as Soviet leader was to drive forward the mass industrialization of his country, although this success [it's a quote from the American book, not the Soviet propaganda - G.S.] was forever tarnished by the vast human cost that was paid to achieve this.
Communist leaders were well aware that one of the primary causes of Russia's failure in World War I had been a lack of industry to provide the war material necessary to fight a modern conflict. [The latter not fully correct because the stockpiles of munitions produced by the Russian industry during the World War I
were enough to supply the Red and White armies for three years of the devastating Civil War of 1917-1920 and even in 1941 during the defence of Sevastopol - G.S.] ...
The programme of industrialization was immense and carefully thought out. Huge industrial complexes were established deep in the Soviet interior. The much-heralded city of Magnitogorsk ... chosen for a new industrial city ... had a mere 25 [twenty five !] inhabitants ... in 1928; four years later ... 250,000 people ....
Much of the Soviet Union's basic heavy industry was set up far to the east of the Urals [that's besides 1532 factories moved to the east when the war started ! - G.S.], in Siberia or Central Asia, which had the advantage of placing it well beyond the range of German air attack once the war started."
Light industry was a different matter, however, and a great deal of this sector was well within reach of an invading army." [END OF QUOTE]
We are pledged to destroy Fascism. German fascism is no worse than any other Fascism. The only country in the world which recognises and destroys Fascism in any disguise is Russia – but it is not a matter of nationality, you know. Nationality is not important to us. We did not hare Germans – or Italians or Chinese or Negroes. Oh no. We do not think Russians are better than other people, except perhaps that Russians have a system which seeks to destroy Fascism. We will make Russia strong and secure – not to impose our will on other peoples but to defend men against Fascism wherever it shows itself. Russia must first be made strong and secure. That is a good sense. That is logic. We have nothing against capitalist democracy, except perhaps that it turns Fascist so easily when something goes wrong with the machinery
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The following is not meant as a personal attack, but just a observation of behavioral phenomenon.
You're an idiot, genozaur.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to bik
>>Anyway, as i said, problem is that people here are trying to be honest with the history while you guys are denaying the facts.
Bik, there is west variant of history and east one :-) Truth in the middle, as always. And there a lot of propaganda in each variant. With open of curtain we try to make compromise. It`s not easy, you know. So, don`t blame us for denying facts - cause from our point of view it`s you, who deny facts, written in history books :-)
Originally posted by straffo
So the pole were wrong to grab 1000km2 when the Russian were right to grab half or Poland.
You're not dense ... I've trouble finding the right word ...
Originally posted by genozaur
Straf, read a passage on 'Curson Line', a historical (political and ethnic) border line between Russia and Poland, and shut up.
:D
Even Wikipedia with its "subtle" statistical twists will do for you.
:rofl
Originally posted by Raven_2
to straffo
>>You needed 1 full year to come defend your ally and it's with the help of the Nazi ?
CZ officialy reject USSR help in 1938. But, still, they were allies and this can be count like motivation to attack Poland :-)
My sayings about attack on Poland because of CZ is kind of joke. I said this cause Holden claim that if USSR and nazi attack Poland at once - they were allies. In this way nazi and Poland can be called allies too, cause both of them attack CZ.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Thrawn
>>You are confusing politics (the allocation of power) with economics (the allocation of scarce resource).
Still don`t understand? Communism it`s a form of democracy. Like liberal democracy, parlamental democracy and so on. This word has nothing to do with economic models (planned economy, in our case).
>>Why is East Germany so poor compared to West Germany?
Well, statistically, East Germany was poor comparing to West side long before WW2. Didn`t you blame England for poorness in India, yes? This not caused by british occupation, I suppose. It`s because of lack of resources, unlucky geographical point and so on.
Originally posted by genozaur
Straf, read a passage on 'Curson Line', a historical (political and ethnic) border line between Russia and Poland, and shut up.
:D
Even Wikipedia with its "subtle" statistical twists will do for you.
:rofl
Originally posted by bikekil
Genozaur,
Our nation is doing better and better every year since we kicked commies outta here in '89, but thanks for your concern :-)
Honestly, not really know what good advice and what wise people you mean and would be keen to know it.
Or maybe you mean we should listen the good advice that Russia said? Well... we had to follow Soviet Union orders for a loooong time, and only mantally ill people can say that it wa sgood for us... well, i'm sure we will do (and we are doing) way better once listen to ourselves :D
Oh, and by the way, look at your goverment pages, as as i heard you finally said something about Katyn and it soulnds like your govermant agreed with Poland.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to bik
>>I was trying to give you not political example that is representing a similar thing, so the word "allies" don't match perfactly here, but the picture is clear.. and there is no room for a propaganda here. that are the facts.
Bah. I never said that attack on Poland was good thing. Only said that USSR and nazi weren`t allies, cause alliance it`s not only a coordinated actions, but official status. USSR and nazi don`t help each other to fight with other side. They divide Poland - but they don`t make plans of coordinated attack.
USSR/England/USA were allies. German/Italy/Japan were allies. USSR/German weren`t allies, even if then agreed about dividing Poland. They don`t help each other in fight with poles, I suppose.
Sure, this dividing and R-M pact wasn`t so good shiny thing, but it helps USSR a lot - we gain some time to invest in our military and prepare to war. Sad thing, that we don`t have time to reallocate all our troops to borders, so 180 nazi divisions fight with three groups of soviet ~50 divisions each with 200-300 km beetwen fights. That`s the main reason of first years mess.
Originally posted by straffo
The Curzon line was and is a complete joke.
And If this line is ethnic I'm the next queen of England.
It's just a very practical justification of the deportation of Polish-speaking people of this area.
Talking about stats :[/B]
Poles 4,794,000 39.9%
Ukrainians and Ruthenians 4,139,000 34.4%
Jews 1,045,000 08.4%
Belarusians 993,000 08.5%
Russians 120,000 01.0%
Lithuanians 76,000 00.6%
Others and not given 845,000 06.4%
Originally posted by straffo
You needed 1 full year to come defend your ally and it's with the help of the Nazi ?
Are you sure the Pole are one who should feel guilty in this case ?
No one should forget Russia was in bed with Satan one full year.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Holden
>>You're an idiot, genozaur.
USA living change people in that way very fast, Holden...
Генозавр, не обижайся. Хотел подколоть.
Originally posted by genozaur
Straf, I warned you to be careful with Wikipedia stats. You did not understand my hint and produced that biased statistics. Sorry, you've just done even worse :
you reproduced only one half of that statistics !
Your next step is the following : you take the current statistics of the modern numbers of Native Americans in the USA today, and declare that their Home Lands are just a myth because such a few people can't even populate Manhattan. [/B]
Didn't you notice that the Wikipedia article on Curson Line is a specially intended piece of anti-Russian propaganda which from its beginning LED YOU TO BELIEVE that Curson Line "has nothing to do with ethnic boundaries" ? At the same time somewhere closer to the end of the article the anonimous authors had to say a couple of mumbling words about the ethnic devide along the Curson Line. And the statistics they fed you are not dated. Don't you know why ? Because that article IS MEANT FOR THE GUYS LIKE YOU.
Anyway, it's never late to grow up and began using your brains. :rofl [/B]
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Thrawn
>>You are confusing politics (the allocation of power) with economics (the allocation of scarce resource).
Still don`t understand? Communism it`s a form of democracy. Like liberal democracy, parlamental democracy and so on. This word has nothing to do with economic models (planned economy, in our case). Sure, ideologicaly, pure communism cannot coexist with market. But pure communism never exist.
Communism has nothing to do with soviet economic model, cause communism is
>>Why is East Germany so poor compared to West Germany?
Well, statistically, East Germany was poor comparing to West side long before WW2. Didn`t you blame England for poorness in India, yes? This not caused by british occupation, I suppose. It`s because of lack of resources, unlucky geographical point and so on.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to genozaur
>>RAVEN, when typing the post GO to FILE and hit WORK OFFLINE.
8-) Post corrupted cause I edit them after post and forgot delete this part. Please, don`t treat me as idiot anymore :-) I just little absent-minded at morning (9 AM here).
Originally posted by Raven_2
8-) Post corrupted cause I edit them after post and forgot delete this part. Please, don`t treat me as idiot anymore :-) I just little absent-minded at morning (9 AM here).
Originally posted by Raven_2
to MiloMorai
Direct offense is a common way for you to talk? Then I advise you to not going to Russia ever, cause here you get kick in your face fast for such attitude.
Originally posted by Raven_2
And now you blame Soviets for counter-attack in 1939? :-)
The Russians had its origins with the ancient nomadic Scythians who in the 7th century B.C. migrated north into the areas around the Black Sea. These early Slavic tribes over the next millenium gradually spread throughout the Steppe lands of Russia and into Eastern Europe. The majority of them eventually settled into village life, but some retained their free roaming horse based culture.
Originally posted by Raven_2
And USA is a land of migrated barbarians (mostly criminals), mixed with unwashed indians and Negroes slaves from Africa.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Holden
>>So then you back off previous statements that disavow Soviet alliance with Nazi Germany in the invasion of Poland with a smiley.
I repeat again for you, my friend. If you think, that joint attack means alliance, then Poland can be called a nazi ally - both of them attack CZ at once. And if they allies and attack CZ - USSR ally, then there is a good point for USSR to help his ally (CZ) and attack one of it enemies (Poland or German). CZ decline offer to help. German and USSR conclude non-agression pact after that. But USSR and Poland not. So, if we accept your dumb statement about "joint attack means alliance", USSR had full right to treat Poland as nazi ally and enemy of USSR ex-ally (CZ). So, it had full right to attack it - again, according to your statement.
Smiley was just because of idiocy of your statement. "Counter-attack" word was just consequence of your (ill)logical claim about alliance.
Originally posted by Raven_2
USA is a land of migrated barbarians (mostly criminals), mixed with unwashed indians and Negroes slaves from Africa.
Originally posted by NUKE
I guess you've never read Boroda's history books. They contain the truth regarding all matters. The rest of the entire world is brainwashed and was denied the truth.
Originally posted by Toad
Wow, the Soviet stables really filled up over the weekend!
I'll try to drop by and clean out a few stalls later today. There's a few mountains of Soviet horse doobers in here. Can't be healthy.
Originally posted by Toad
Wow, the Soviet stables really filled up over the weekend!
I'll try to drop by and clean out a few stalls later today. There's a few mountains of Soviet horse doobers in here. Can't be healthy.
Soon after entering Soviet airspace, the airliner was met by a Soviet jet. The pilot of Flight 902, Captain Kim Chang Ky, reported that when he caught sight of' the Soviet jet -- off the right side, not the left as specified by International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO, pronounced eye-kay-oh) standards -- he reduced speed, lowered his landing gear, and flashed his navigation lights on and off, all specified in procedures as signifying willingness to follow the Soviet fighter.[/b]
His calls on 121.5 were recorded by a Finnish air traffic control tower at Rovaniemi, which also noted the lack of any Soviet calls on the same frequency.
For more than an hour Captain Kim flew at an altitude of only several thousand feet across the snow-covered peninsula, seeking a safe landing place. The Soviets had no idea where he was. He had aborted several approaches to possible sites when he spotted obstructions at the last moment. Finally, after nightfall, he found a frozen lake bed, just west of Kem, and let down smoothly, skidding in to a safe landing.
He flew around for an HOUR before nightfall.
The first pact was an economic agreement, which Ribbentrop and Molotov signed on August 19, 1939.
The economic agreement committed the Soviet Union to provide food products as well as raw materials to Germany in exchange for furnished products such as machinery from Germany.
During the first years of the war, this economic agreement helped Germany bypass the British blockade.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad
>>The early part of the war? While the Soviets were backstabbing the Poles and the Allies were doing nothing?
Early part of war was in 1938, when allies backstab CZ and then doing nothing :-) Formaly, there was no war at that time, but if France/England/USSR would helped CZ to destroy nazi forces, WW2 might never happened... But Churchill want for nazi to destroy bolshevism and jews/czech/poles/germans/soviets lives were reasonable price for this bastard. Only when he realise, that Hitler don`t attack USSR next to Poland, but France, allies start to resist him. So, allies show by CZ example, that backstabing is a usual for England/France to cooperate and USSR on it own with nazi threat. Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in this situation was an ingenious diplomatic maneuver for USSR. That gives chance to streghten industry and remove border further from Moscow. Should we care about poles lives instead of our own and attack nazi in 1939? This move lead us to lose in war and world dominance for Germany with all Europe/USSR resources and Japan as allies would just a matter of time. So, M-R pact and attack on Poland wasn`t to humane, but it was perfect strategic move for our country.
>>they were feeding the German war machine.
Change grain (to feed people) for high quality machinery (to build tanks) before war - not a bad deal, I think. This wasn`t a gift, but a trade. Very favourable for Soviets.
Ans "raw materials" were vegetal oil, hemp and other trash, not chrome, manganese or something else that can be used in machinery building. I think that this trade were excelent way to weaken nazi war machine and strengthen soviet. Nazi engeeners worked on building machine tools for USSR instead of making more planes and tanks for nazi.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Fishu
>>I sure hope you guys are just fkning around with the westerners, so you have something to laugh for when drinking vodka.
I don`t drink alcohol at all (cause alcohol degrade sport form fast and I`m train at karate section). Most of my friends prefer beer, vermouth or cognac (armenian). Vodka... Well, it`s another myth. It popular throught marginal layer of society and number of such people decrase fast.
But you right, I`m here mostly to have fun from bla-blaing with people of different culture, not for "defending" something :-)
to bik
>>Still no comment about your MFA statement?
Only a lot of comments at russian-speaking forums about stupidity of our foreign ministry in admiting unproved fact. 90% of poles sure that murder is NKVD, at least 60% of russians - that it was done by nazi. So, we (Boroda and I) are not alone here. Still wish for investigation to go more rapid and all files transfer to Poland side at closest time. It would way more useful that all of this "we mourn your losses" bla-bla.
Originally posted by Toad
But we all know what liars those Finns are, don't we Comrades?
As to daylight/dark:
Of course, the most important point to remember is that Civilian or not, the Soviets would STILL have SHOT IT DOWN.
They don't care if it's civilian. [/B]
Originally posted by bikekil
Good enought for me :) A solid (maybe international and surely with a Russian representatives) investigation would be the best way to go :)
Originally posted by Boroda[/b]
Toad, I need a link to this lies - they must have something about Christ and Russians :D
Then he played evasive maneuvers with Soviet interceptors[/b]
Soviet pilots risked their lives to save innocent people whe were victims of your dirty CIA games.[/b]
If Soviet side shot down all the planes that invaded our airspace - Boeing could get huge military production orders.
13 September 1987 A Soviet Su-27P Flanker of the 941st IAP, flown by Vasiliy Tsymbal, intercepted a Lockheed P-3B Orion of the 333 squadron of the Royal Norwegian Air Force, flown by Jan Salvesen, over the Barents Sea.
While maneuvering below the P-3B, the Su-27P collided with the outboard right propeller of the Orion. The impact shattered a fin tip of the Su-27P and caused fragments of the propeller to puncture the P-3B's fuselage, causing a decompression.
Because of the damaged propeller, the Orion experienced severe vibrations and the outboard right engine was shut down. The aircraft disengaged and returned safely to their bases. Tsymbal was expelled from the Communist Party three days later, but was reinstated after a day. Shortly thereafter he was awarded the Order of the Red Star. ( :rofl )
The Orion's pilot emerged from the incident with no blemishes to his service record and the Soviet Union officially apologized to Norway.
1 July 1960 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet (53-4281) of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over the Barents Seawas downed by Soviet pilot Vasili Poliakov, flying a MiG-15 studmuffinot.
Co-pilot Bruce Olmstead and navigator John McKone survived and were taken captive. The pilot, Bill Palm and ELINT operators Eugene Posa, Oscar Goforth and Dean Phillips were killed.
Olmstead and McKone were released from Soviet captivity on January 25th, 1961. Bill Palm's remains were returned to the US on July 25, 1960. Eugene Posa's remains were recovered by the Soviets, but never returned to the US.
1980 A Soviet Tu-95 Bear, flying from the USSR to Cuba entered US airspace and passed very close to Langley AFB in Virginia (it could be seen from the control tower). The aircraft was intercepted by F-15s from the US Air Force 1st TFW and escorted out of US airspace.
Originally posted by Toad
Too bad that's not what the passengers said. They shoot his wing and he dove... now to a Soviet pilot that may be an incredibly tough evasive maneuver to follow. A 707 in a rapid descent... couldn't follow him right? :rofl
And we all know how well an 707 missing a big part of its wing can outmaneuver a Soviet interceptor, right?
Originally posted by Toad
I had your Soviet pilots trying to fly my wing in the late '70's. They suxxored; they couldn't hang in with an RC-135 in a 30 degree bank autopilot turn. They either overshot or fell inside the turn and got way behind.
Originally posted by Toad
So the risk to their lives and the lives of the civilian passengers was mostly the risk of a Soviet fighter colliding with them due to his own incompetence.
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, they were incompetent. Both KAL 902 and KAL 007 showed that. Mattias Rust in his Cessna especially showed that.
Originally posted by Toad
So they didn't shoot them all down but it wasn't for lack of trying.
Originally posted by Boroda
So - they effectively forced you to change course. That's all.
Originally posted by Boroda
A man in a Su-15 had to force a huge airliner to land! And he succeeded. Good job.
Korean pilots admitted that they heard orders on the radio and saw the maneuvers of the interceptors and decided not to obey orders.[/b]
So - they effectively forced you to change course. That's all.
The article I quote says: yes, we got so scared after KAL007 shootdown[/b]
How do you see a supersonic fighter forcing a Cessna to land?[/b]
The very fact that you are here telling your propaganda lies proves opposite thing.[/b]
You have to admit that you prepared routes for bombers aimed at Soviet cities in an aggressive war. You side have always been and remains aggressors.[/B]
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, telling that someone can survive and be "taken captive" in Barenz Sea is ridiculous.
The crew bailed out 50 miles from the coast over the Barents Sea at latitude 72 degrees north. Olmstead saw everyone bail out, but one crew member's chute did not open. Bruce landed hard in the near-freezing water of the Barents and struggled to deploy his small yellow dinghy. In the process of ejecting from the spinning B-47, he had broken his back. Scanning the horizon he could see only one other dinghy.
John McKone landed between a mile and a half to two miles from Olmstead. The dinghies were hard to maneuver in the heavy sea, and the two were never able to join up. Of the six crew members, only Olmstead and McKone had survived. The others disappeared and were presumed lost.
27 February 1974 A Soviet An-24 Coke reconnaissance aircraft, low on fuel, made an emergency landing at Gambell Airfield in Alaska. The crew remained on the aircraft overnight and were provided with space heaters and food. The next day they were refueled and departed for home.
On 26 March, 1994, Russian military surveillance aircraft, monitoring a NATO anti-submarine warfare exercise, was low on fuel and made an emergency landing at Thule Air Base in Greenland. It was on the ground about six hours, the crew was fed, the aircraft was refueled and it departed.
Over more than ten years of investigation, Michel Brun has collected and analyzed evidence which indicates
* that KAL 007's off course flight was intentional
* that when the Korean airliner approached Sakhalin Island, so too did a number of U.S. military aircraft some of which had already overflown the Kamchatka Peninsula
* that when a number of them entered Soviet territorial airspace at Sakhalin, a more than two hour air battle was initiated in which some ten U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy aircraft were shot down with the loss of at least thirty U.S. servicemen
* that KAL007 itself appears not to have overflown either Kamchatka or Sakhalin but passed through the Straits just the south of that Soviet island, flew south over the Sea of Japan for at least 45 minutes
* and was then destroyed off Honshu by means and for reasons which remain to be established
Originally posted by Raven_2
Toad, what a tipycal USA-government-defender like you think about Orange Agent in Vietnam? This is chemical weapon
Originally posted by Raven_2
USA still think that it Big Brother of Europe and must defend Europe against USSR (and now arabic) agression? Maybe you should ask europians about that?
Originally posted by Raven_2
Whole world knows about your RC-135 spies - but does anyone actualy see USSR spy planes?
Originally posted by Raven_2
And about KAL-007.
Read this: http://geocities.com/ke007us/
27 February 1974 A Soviet An-24 Coke reconnaissance aircraft, low on fuel, made an emergency landing at Gambell Airfield in Alaska. The crew remained on the aircraft overnight and were provided with space heaters and food. The next day they were refueled and departed for home.
On 26 March, 1994, Russian military surveillance aircraft, monitoring a NATO anti-submarine warfare exercise, was low on fuel and made an emergency landing at Thule Air Base in Greenland. It was on the ground about six hours, the crew was fed, the aircraft was refueled and it departed.
Originally posted by Seeker
Man; if it's this hard to talk to these guys; what's it going to be like bringing North Koreans into the 21 .st centuary?
Its use has been banned by the Geneva Convention on Chemical Weapons.
Originally posted by Raven_2
"We didn`t know what it really is" is not plea, Toad.
What they didn't realize, or chose to ignore, was that 2,4,5-T contained dioxin, a useless by-product of herbicide production. It would be twenty more years until concern was raised about dioxin, a chemical the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) would later call "one of the most perplexing and potentially dangerous" known to man
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "The toxicity of dioxin renders it capable of killing some species of newborn mammals and fish at levels of five parts per trillion (or one ounce in six million tons). Less than two millionths of an ounce will kill a mouse. Its toxic properties are enhanced by the fact that it can pass into the body through all major routes of entry, including the skin (by direct contact), the lungs (by inhaling dust, fumes or vapors), or through the mouth. Entry through any of these routes contributes to the total body burden.
What they didn't realize, or chose to ignore, was that 2,4,5-T contained dioxin, a useless by-product of herbicide production.
It would be twenty more years until concern was raised about dioxin, a chemical the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) would later call "one of the most perplexing and potentially dangerous" known to man
"The first missile was launched", continues the intercept pilot,
"when the distance between us was about 5 kilometers. Only then could I
really see the intruder. It was bigger that an IL-76, but its outline
reminded me of a Tu-16. The trouble is that Soviet pilots do not study
civilian aircraft of foreign companies. I knew all the military
aircraft, all the reconnaissance... But that one did not look like any
of them..."
"Did you have any doubts at that moment that you might have done
something wrong?"
"I never thought for a minute that I would be shooting down a
passenger aircraft. Anything but that! Could I admit to pursuing a
"Boeing?"... At that time, I was seeing before me a large aircraft with
flashing lights..."
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Staga and Seeker
>>I'm more than critical about what US of A has done lately but I gotta say they were pretty much only reason why you commies couldn't add whole western Europe to your stash like you did with eastern Europe.
Sure. Before that was Evil USSR. Now it`s Evil Arabic Terrorists. After that it would be Evil Communistic China and Evil North Korea With Nuclear Weapons. They always find reason for keeping their bases onto your territory. And you always would belive them, yes?
Don`t you think that sometime (after China, for example) it would Evil Europe Union and their bases onto your territory show their real purpose?
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Staga and Seeker
>>I'm more than critical about what US of A has done lately but I gotta say they were pretty much only reason why you commies couldn't add whole western Europe to your stash like you did with eastern Europe.
Sure. Before that was Evil USSR. Now it`s Evil Arabic Terrorists. After that it would be Evil Communistic China and Evil North Korea With Nuclear Weapons. They always find reason for keeping their bases onto your territory. And you always would belive them, yes?
Don`t you think that sometime (after China, for example) it would Evil Europe Union and their bases onto your territory show their real purpose?
Originally posted by Raven_2
to MiloMorai
>>How can these 2 make comments about the use of Agent Orange by the USA, who did not know it was toxic, while the Russians, full well knowing the results of doing so > instant death, used chemical weapons in Afganistan?
If you think that your word is enough for me to belive in this fact, you mistaken. Any links?
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Will it matter to you Raven if I do. You will only sluff it off as Capitalist propaganda. :)
Should I mention the dolls, filled with explosives, dropped by the Russians to main and kill Afgan children?
Tell, me Raven why there is long lines in Russian to even get the basics ? Why are the shelves so empty?
If all was available to all, why was there seperate stores. So much for equailty in the old CCCP.
Tell me Raven if the commie system was so good, why are the Americans sending aid to you? :eek: The Americans even subsidize your space program because without that money it would die.
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Good name you have for a commie. I would have that nick if I was a commie.:)
No I have not been there and have no desire to. I have worked with Russians who decribed the lack of basics, freezing in their apartments after waiting years to get one and have had friends who went there to work because they wanted good work done, besides the fact that the Russians were incapable of doing the work.:)
Originally posted by Raven_2
Soviet propaganda often talked about homeless people at West that cannot get food to fed themself. Was it a lie? Only in scale, there were not 50% (like propaganda said), but "only" 10-15% (today statistics) such people in whole population. That was horror for our people, cause in USSR *every* citizien got food, flat, free health care, free education (both basic and higher) and job (there were no unemploed).
Originally posted by Toad
You mean AFTER he shot two missiles at it and failed to murder them in the air? :rofl
He didn't force anyone to land. Your fighters lost him and he landed on a lake. The fighter transmissions with control were recorded.
Originally posted by Toad
That's probably what the pre-printed confession they were forced to sign said. You're familiar with "confessions" in the USSR, no doubt?
Originally posted by Toad
The Finns recorded the KAL on 121.5, International VHF Emergency. No answers, no transmissions at all from the Soviet forces. Those lying Finns, eh? :rofl
Originally posted by Toad
Scared to shoot? Because it took you forever to intercept KAL 007? You were scared by your own incompetence.
Actually, I'm suprised they didn't murder him. They could have done it with wake turbulence most likely.
Originally posted by Toad
I mapped the radars so they could develop the best ingress routes.
Fortunately, you Soviets didn't advance beyond your captured countries in Eastern Europe and try to enslave more of Europe, so there was no war.
Originally posted by Toad
Our SIOP was always reactive in nature. It was "IF the Soviets do this... we will do this." Your side would have had to start it; and then we would have had to finish it for you.
Originally posted by Toad
And don't pretend you didn't have ICBM's of the Strategic Rocket Forces targeted on US cities as well. And what of your missile carrying submarine forces when you got those in the 1960s? What were they aimed at?
Originally posted by Toad
BTW, MAD must have worked.. we're all still here in "keyboard combat" rather than actual combat. Success.
Originally posted by Boroda
I was stunned when I saw a bum sleeping in the street in NYC in 1989. It was a revelation for me that homeless people are real and indeed live in the streets. I also was surprised by the smell :rolleyes: It's quite different when you see it yourself and not on TV.
If we only knew that in a few years we'll have such people in the streets too... :(
"We already have shelters, and Governor Vladimir Yakovlev signed an order to open night shelters for the homeless in every district two months ago," he said. "Using these resources would make better sense than taking these people out of the city - like the old-fashioned way when such things happened during the 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow."
Originally posted by Angus
Most of this community has never been in Russia.
Most are non-russian speakers.
I've been to Poland, know many Polish, my friends have been to Russia, I have employed and worked with many eastern-block people.
Sort of boils down to the story that things were not all that good over there in the glorydays. All a myth perhaps?
Well, for some odd reason, people were often trying to get out of there, so wall them. People were trying to pick up foreign radio and music, - so scramble it.
So, when the damn bursted, we have eager eastern europeans all over the place trying to get jobs, trying to start a life elsewhere.
But why?
Because they chose freedom over equality?
What is equality with no freedom?
All worth a thought really.....
Originally posted by Zakhal
Equality as in equally opressed? :D
Originally posted by Krusher
post number one
welcome to the party :)
Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004)
Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)
The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).
U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).
Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
Did I mention that health care in USSR was free?
Did I mention that health care in USSR was free?
Ksenofontova contributes a very interesting chapter on infant mortality, mainly concentrating on correcting the registration data and looking at the differences between republics and over time. Her estimates of USSR infant mortality according to the WHO definition in the 1980s are close to those of Anderson & Silver. A striking feature of her results is the extent of rural under-registration. For example, in 1970 in Ukraine the registered rural infant mortality rate was below the urban one, but the corrected one above it. The highest corrected level of rural infant mortality in 1970 was in Kirgizia, where it was 84.3 per thousand. At the end of her chapter she suggests that `increases in infant mortality because of the worsening economic, political and ecological situations in the country and in specific regions with high infant mortality may make medical institutions conceal the under-registration caused by the inadequacy of the registration system'. If this were to be the case, the registration data would understate
Originally posted by Raven_2
Capitalism...
People in the Eastern bloc in 1989 were promised a better deal under capitalism but five years later the living standards have been cut by 40 or 50 percent.
America now has the highest inequality of income in the industrialized world. In 1940 we had the least disparity of wealth with CEOs making about 12 times that of their average worker. Now it is 180 times as much. So this as seen CEO salaries increase 500% since 1980 while wage earners salaries have dropped 5%.
The United States is tied with Guatemala in having the richest and poorest 20% of the population.
The 3 richest people in the US have a combined wealth equal to more than 115 million ordinary working class Americans.
The world's 358 billionaires have more assets than the combined incomes of countries representing nearly half - 45 per cent - of the planet's population.
Over the last 15 years the amount of American billionaires have increased 1300%, the limit needed to be listed in the Forbes 400 has increased 500% and those in the $120,000 income bracket has increased by 25%.
2/3 of working Americans make less in purchasing power than they did in 1979.
In 1980 the top managers of the top 300 US companies had income 29 times larger than that of a manufacturing worker, by 1990 the same companies had a 93 times greater income.
Originally posted by Boroda[/b]
Toad, the one who shot off it's wingtip was one Su-15, then another shot a wingtip again ("target divided" and this wreck looked like a bomb or cruise missile, so a BVR missile was shot at it). Then a third Su flown by Keferov found the Boeing again (first pair RTBed because they were low on fuel) and forced it to land at the lake. 707 was making attempts to leave Soviet airspace (so they knew where they are).
They made confessions, there was a trial and they were released as a sign of good will from Soviet side. There must have been an ICAO investigation too.[/b]
Years later the Soviets released a map (almost certainly based on analysis of flight recorder data) which showed that the aircraft had begun a wide right turn soon after reaching Iceland on its Amsterdam to Anchorage over-the-pole route.
Such a turn was too gradual to occur manually, and the on-board guidance equipment would have equally been unable to match it deliberately, so a plausible explanation involved a drift in the aircraft's inertial platform or the manual keyboard entry of an incorrect correction factor for Earth's rotation (the apparent path would have been followed if the sign of the correction factor had been reversed).
UberFinns recorded no transmittions from Soviet side?! :lol Toad, you are so funny in believing nonsence someone feeds you!
Anyway, was it possible for Finns to record Soviet ground control transmittions? I doubt it. Koreans were at 9000m, so both Soviet and Finnish side could communicate with them w/o hearing each other. I am not a specialist.
His calls on 121.5 were recorded by a Finnish air traffic control tower at Rovaniemi, which also noted the lack of any Soviet calls
on the same frequency.
American intelligence units in Europe had been able to eavesdrop on the Soviet air-to-ground communications as they occurred via some new high-tech eavesdropping facilities, according to a recent book by Seymour Hersh.
They were able to intercept KAL007 over Kamchatka, but they thought it was a weekly American RC-135 excercise and didn't bother because usually they ran away before interceptors could get them.
At 5:33 A.M., local time, Track 6065 entered Soviet airspace and thus became an intruder, targeted for destruction by Andropov’s inflexible new border-defense law.
As KE007 crossed the Kamchatka coastline, at least four Soviet fighters scrambled to intercept it. Then, low on fuel, they were forced back to base while KE007 was still being tracked by Kamchatka radar.
Illesh explains this embarrassing lapse: after 1976, when Lieutenant Viktor Belenko defected to Japan with a MIG-25, "they began to fuel the aircraft in such a fashion that a Soviet pilot would not have enough fuel . . . to reach the nearest foreign airfield.":rofl
Her crew still unaware that anything was amiss, KE007 flew over Kamchatka and on out to sea, and faded from the radar screens. Mortified, the people on duty at the Kamchatka command center informed their opposite numbers on Sakhalin Island, on the other side of the Sea of Okhotsk, that an intruder "provisionally identified as an RC-135" was headed their way.
As the fighter positions itself to fire, Kornukov worries that KE007 may escape. "Oh, ****. He is already getting out into neutral waters. Engage afterburner immediately. Bring in the MIG-23 as well. While you are wasting time, it will fly right out."
BTW, it could be a good idea to make a missile ambush for that RC-135, but noone bothered.[/b]
Check the dates please.[/b]
The Korolev design bureau’s R-7/SS-6 Sapwood was the world’s first intercontinental. Though R-7s were never widely deployed, the launch systems became the basis for the most successful satellite launch booster in the world.
The parameters of the R-7 were first outlined in a Soviet governmental order from February 13, 1953 that called for the development of a two-stage ballistic missile with a range of 8000 km with a payload carry of 3,000 kg and a gross liftoff weight of 170 tons.
Immediately after initial serial production of the Tu-4 began, work started to adapt the bomber to strike at American territory. Some airplanes were outfitted to carry nuclear bombs and were designated as TU-4A.
During re-equipment, the bomber was outfitted with a thermostatically controlled heated bomb bay, a suspension unit for the bomb was developed, and biological protection devices for the crew were supplied. Some TU-4 bombers were equipped with aerial refueling devices, and scant few were outfitted with additional fuel tanks located under the wings.
They were deployed in 1952, though the majority of the TU-4s were not re-equipped with air refueling. Although the limited range of the Tu-4 rendered it incapable of striking the United States and subsequently returning to bases in the Soviet Union, neither country was a stranger to one-way strategic bombardment missions, given the precedent of the FRANTIC operations in World War II.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Sure, World Health Organization lied to whole world
Originally posted by Raven_2
to MiloMorai
You xenophobic brainwashed idiot that have a lot of stereotypes and propaganda inside his head.
Originally posted by Skydancer
922 and counting!
Originally posted by Raven_2
Well, maybe it would a news for you, but he thinks that whole Europe and Japan are already parts of USA empire. They call you "USA vassals". It`s an official politic of USA government.
Originally posted by Toad
For those interested in understanding what really happened to KAL 007, I suggest this article. It's a bit long, but it is the most accurate I have read to date. I say that after having talked to RC-135 personnel with extensive knowledge of the incident and after getting the "other side"... what happened and how to keep it from happening again.. from the Air Line Pilots Association, company and ICAO briefings.
A REPORTER AT LARGE: CLOSING THE FILE ON FLIGHT 007 BY MURRAY SAYLE (http://www.jamesoberg.com/121993sayleart1_kal.html)
Sayle obviously did a lot of research. His explanation of the failure to recouple the INS to the autopilot after the mandatory coast-out nav accuracy check is one of the few places I've seen that key element mentioned. There's few guys flying the trans-ocean routes that haven't made that mistake once in their careers.
I do not suggest it for our Stalinist readers. The truth will only upset you and force you to dig up even more imbecilic explantions for why the Soviets had to shoot down another airliner that was no threat to them and was in fact, either OUT OF or VERY NEARLY OUT OF their airspace at the time it was shot down.
{KAL-007} "climbs briefly {?-G.S.} to a more economical cruising height."[END OF QUOTE]
What is this ? With only about three hours of flight time left, the pilot-in-command finally decides to become "economical" ? What was he doing before ? Sleeping ? And here it comes :Quote"Captain Chun is roused from some kind of reverie, or dream." [END OF QUOTE]
So disturbed and distructed from his day-dream Captain Chung was, that he refused to have a meal.Quote"Let's eat later."[END OF QUOTE] My question here is about the time of Captain Chun last supper. When did the crew have their last meal before that ? Is it so usual for the captain-in-command at this time into the flight to postpone the meal for himself and his co-pilot ?
And soon in the text of the article appeares an extremely interesting phrase about the KAL-007 airliner :Quote"... entering prohibited airspace above the Soviet Union for the second time that night."[END OF QUOTE]
What a wonderful example of american journalism ! It appeares that the airliner did it again ! Maybe this was why the captain-in-command was so distructed from observing the meal time. And it can easily be so taking into account his service record connecting him to CIA.
So, Toad, what was the use of this propaganda of yours ? You did not answer any of my questions. Not about the US recon plane on a parallel course (this is a fact), not about the US spy satellite (this is also a fact), not about Chun's connection to CIA (this I can not prove because I read it in a newpaper).
Still waiting for your answers.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad
>>Yeah, ask the Euros if they feel like the US rules their countries.
Why I should ask ordinary europian fellow does it feel rulled by USA, if one of the USA top elite write this in his book? Am I said that they feel ruled? No. I said that your government think itself a ruler of the Europe.
And Toad, if you don`t know (shame on you in that case) who is Brzezinski, check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
Great Britain, to be sure, still remains important to America. It continues to wield some degree of global influence through the Commonwealth, but it is neither a restless major power nor is it motivated by an ambitious vision. It is America's key supporter, a very loyal ally, a vital military base, and a close partner in critically important intelligence activities. Its friendship needs to be nourished, but its policies do not call for sustained attention. It is a retired geostrategic player, resting on its splendid laurels, largely disengaged from the great European adventure in which France and Germany are the principal actors.
The other medium-sized European states, with most being members of NATO and/or the European Union, either follow America's lead or quietly line up behind Germany or France.
{KAL-007} "climbs briefly {?-G.S.} to a more economical cruising height."
"Let's eat later."
"... entering prohibited airspace above the Soviet Union for the second time that night."
Not about the US recon plane on a parallel course (this is a fact),
KE007, still steered by its compass, crossed the track of an American RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft that was on its way home from its duty station, flying over international waters, two hundred miles east of the Kamchatka Peninsula. The RC-135, a modified Boeing 707, was crammed with electronic gear designed to monitor a Soviet ballistic -- missile test that had been scheduled for that same night but had subsequently been cancelled.
Although the RC-135 flight was unpublicized, it was not illegal or especially sinister: such flights were part of the "national technical means of verification" mentioned, though coyly not described, in the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty then in force between the superpowers.
The RC-135 completed its leisurely sentry run off the Kamchatka coast, well north of KE007's track, and was back on the ground on Shemya Island, one of the Aleutians, a full hour before the shootdown.
not about the US spy satellite (this is also a fact),
Originally posted by Toad
This guy is as good as Boroda! :rofl
Originally posted by Raven_2
Bah. There are German, France and Sweden near, why they transport them into Finland, then? Finish medical system are ordinary and worse that in biggest EU countries, AFAIK.
Maybe, his last will was to die at homeland? :-)
Morning Edition, July 1, 1999 · NPR's Michelle Kelemen reports on the inadequacies of Russia's state-run hospitals. Problems include short supplies of medicine and equipment to appalling sanitary conditions.
Originally posted by Despair
Well, Comarades, they cannot understand what is a good free health care, education, accomodations etc. cause they had never experienced any of it. Its like trying to explaim Mozart to deaf. I was educated in Soviet Union and i can speak 4 foreign languages, have a degree in economic sciences that alows me to choose my working time and schedule.
Originally posted by Despair
Well, Comarades, they cannot understand what is a good free health care, education, accomodations etc. cause they had never experienced any of it. Its like trying to explaim Mozart to deaf. I was educated in Soviet Union and i can speak 4 foreign languages, have a degree in economic sciences that alows me to choose my working time and schedule.
Originally posted by Toad
Ah, the "gold old days" when it was so good no one wanted to leave.
The wall claimed at least 239 deaths that were shot on escape attempts by frontier guards, drowned in river Spree or in lakes or died in other tragic ways. The first victim Rudolf Urban died when he jumped out of a window in Bernauer StraЯe. The last refugee who lost his life on the wall was Chris Gueffroy, shot on February 6th, 1989. Many people were terrified to see Peter Fechter bleeding to death at the wall without anyone coming to help him.
Originally posted by Boroda
95% of Americans probably will prefer Soviet system to what they have no. No kidding.
Originally posted by Toad
:rofl
You are totally delusional!
Keep posting this stuff.... please.
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
LOL. And why there need in reservations? "For their own good?" LOL again.
In the United States, the federal government recognizes Indian tribes as independent and sovereign powers. Sovereignty is the right of a nation or group of people to be self-governing. Indians are United States citizens and also citizens of their tribes.
Like other Americans, Indians are subject to federal laws, but they are not always subject to state laws because Indian reservations are held in trust by the federal government. Tribal sovereignty is established and maintained through a federal recognition program that creates a government-to-government relationship between the tribe and U.S. government.
About photos.[/b]
On the first: ever seen soviet uniform? It differs much from clothing of that guy.
Second: roughly fake, as for me. And why you think that this is a Wall, but not nazi camp? Cause CNN post of Cold War time claim that?[/b]
[/b]
(http://img215.exs.cx/img215/898/peterfechter17uc.jpg)
Originaly, this guy was at your side :-)
As you can see, this guy was killed by USA troops, occupating West Side. Yep. Some USA soldier think that he is apostle Pavel at the Gates into Soviet Paradise and this guy not deserve to get in.
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, I remember only one person who "jumped the wall" successfully, John Kay from Steppenwolf.
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, how did you come to a conclusion that Soviet side didn't return FDRs from Korean 707? They returned the plane after studying it for some time.
Another "Russians and Christ" data source?...
Originally posted by Boroda
And the target did divide, another Su-15 fired a BVR missile at a wingtip shot off.
Originally posted by mora
Too bad they cannot keep me from leaving like in the good old USSR.
<...>a US second-lieutenant on the scene received specific orders from the US Commandant in West Berlin to stand firm and do nothing.
Likewise the head of the GDR border platoon stated that he was afraid to intervene, because of an incident just three days earlier when a GDR soldier Rudi Arnstadt had probably been shot by a western soldier.
In March 1997 two former East German guards, Rolf Friedrich and Erich Schreiber, faced manslaughter charges for Fechter's death, at which they admitted to his shooting. They were both convicted, and sentenced to one year's imprisonment on probation.
The policy was controversial from the start. Reservations were generally established by executive order. In many cases, white settlers objected to the size of land parcels, which were subsequently reduced. A report submitted to the United States Congress in 1868 found widespread corruption among the federal Indian agencies and generally poor conditions among the relocated tribes.
Many tribes ignored the relocation orders at first and were forced onto their new limited land parcels. In many cases, the policy required the continuing support of the United States Army in the West to restrict the movements of various tribes. The pursuit of tribes in order to force them back onto reservations led to a number of Indian Wars. The most famous such conflict was the Sioux War on the northern Great Plains, between 1876 and 1881, which included the Battle of Little Bighorn. Other famous wars in this regard included the Nez Perce War.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Sure, it was their choice :-) Is this the way how famous "liberty" thing works in USA? You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
claim that this is a "soviet murder holding it innocent victim".
This one according to Time.[/b]
Brandt's words were prompted by Peter Fechter's ignominious death and the events that followed it. Fechter was an East Berlin bricklayer who had waited a year for an opportunity to join his sister in West Berlin. Because of his trade, he was allowed to work near the crumbling wall, and, with another 18-year-old, discovered a deserted lumberyard that was separated from a low stretch of Wall by a vacant lot and the "death strip," a border of sand within easy range of a dozen Communist Tommy guns.
When the pair made their dash early one afternoon last week, Fechter's friend managed to climb the six-foot-high barrier and leap over the barbed wire on top. But Fechter paused for a few fatal seconds. Long enough for the Grenzpolizei (border police) to raise their weapons and fire. Shot in the back by crossfire, Fechter fell back onto the death strip only 300 yards from Checkpoint Charlie, the U.S. command post at the busy Friedrichstrasse border crossing.
There he lay, moaning "Hilfe, Hilfe," while a growing throng of horrified West Berliners stood gaping on the other side of the barrier. As the minutes ticked past, photographers, cops, even a couple of U.S. military policemen, edged gingerly up to the Wall's western side to have a look at the hideous sight.
One conscience-stricken U.S. second lieutenant could stand it no longer, picked up the "hot line" telephone to Major General Albert Watson II, the U.S. commandant in West Berlin. Back came the order: "Lieutenant, you have your orders. Stand fast. Do nothing."
Not knowing the reason for the Americans' inaction, an agonized crowd swirled around the command post crying: "For God's sake, go get him." When a German reporter asked why the American troops did not rescue Fechter, one G.I. replied, "This is not our problem."
Fifty-five minutes after he had fallen to the ground, Peter Fechter's lifeless body was carted away by Communist cops. He was the 50th East German known to have been killed while attempting to breach the Wall.
Friedrich and Shreiber - typical russian last names :-)[/b]
You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...
Originally posted by Panzzer
LOL... So where are you going to move to after you graduate as an engineer? ;)
edit: added "as an engineer" not to diminish Mora's accomplishment. :)
Originally posted by Despair
Well, Comarades, they cannot understand what is a good free health care, education, accomodations etc. cause they had never experienced any of it. Its like trying to explaim Mozart to deaf. I was educated in Soviet Union and i can speak 4 foreign languages, have a degree in economic sciences that alows me to choose my working time and schedule.
Originally posted by Boroda
95% of Americans probably will prefer Soviet system to what they have now. No kidding.
Originally posted by Boroda
What we have now is a victory of "democracy", and education quality dropped below any reasonable limits. I knew I was getting a best engineering education in Europe and probably the whole world, now - who cares...
I wonder why it was nessesary to abandon it for some kind of silly non-working political doctrine. Basic human rights are not "free expression" and non-existant "freedom of press".
Originally posted by Raven_2
Sure, it was their choice :-) Is this the way how famous "liberty" thing works in USA? You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...
Originally posted by Raven_2
Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world.
Originally posted by Raven_2
>>Lada????
Nope. Buran, Soyuz, Mir and so on. Ever heard about that?
Originally posted by Raven_2
Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world.
The Economic Problems of Great Britain 1919-1939
-Britain was a trading nation and its prosperity was built on her early industrialization however after WWI Britain became a debtor nation, causes of this include:
-Britain was challenged as other countries industrialized
-New post-WWI trading patterns were not in favor of Britain
-Britain had little left (after war debts) for import payments
-The post-WWI rise in protectionism damaged Britain given the nature of her economy (trade based)
-The break up of A.H. deprived Britain of a valuable export market
-British industry was becoming outdated
The Economic Problems of France 1919-1939
But, France had been the major battlefield for WWI and suffered greatly as a result. Her problems were:
-Loss of revenue in areas which had been devastated by the war
-Bankruptcy of the French treasury (due to massive borrowing)
-Manpower shortage because of heavy war losses
-The newly developed industrial sector promoted trade while the agricultural sector promoted projectionist policies.
-The taxation system was outdated and inefficient
-The French Gov. relied too much on reparations
The Economy of the USSR during the period 1919-1939
-The introduction in 1928 of a new system of central planning brought about rapid development
-The USSR began to catch up with the advanced countries of the West.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Fck. And how much you know about russian cars? Ever seen one? Or all you can do just blah-blah "according to newspapers I read". Ever heard of Paris-Dakkar rally? Did you know that KAMAZ team is five years in succesion winner of this race?
[ Оптимист ] кто из нас brajnwashed? 01-04-05 15:55
Ответ на Ответ из EVIL :
С Америкой что-то не так. Эта страна живет в долг. Очень, очень большой долг. Причем в долг она берет, не чтобы производить, а чтобы потреблять. Вот откуда высокий уровень жизни.
Здоровая ситуация, характерная для быстро поднимающихся людей, фирм и стран: потребление ограничивается до уровня гораздо более низкого, чем он мог бы быть, чтобы инвестировать, и еще берется кредит, чтобы инвестировать. В Америке все наоборот.
Американцы частично потеряли свой бизнес в конкуренции с японцами и китайцами, частично продали арабам и тем же японцам. А сами набрали кредитов, чтобы жить в больших красивых домах и ездить на больших красивых машинах. Это показное и очень ненадежное благополучие. Впечатление такое, что никто в американском высшем руководстве не знает, что делать, и живут либо по принципу "после нас хоть потоп" либо в надежде "мы такие большие и важные, что китайцы, арабы и японцы не дадут нам умереть". А кое-кто толкает идею - давайте всех кинем, мы самые сильные, нам можно. Думаю, именно этим и закончится эпоха американской гегемонии - банальным пошлым кидаловом всех, кто поверил в надежность доллара. Фактически, кидалово уже произошло - ведь долги США, номинированные в американской же валюте, "похудели" в полтора раза за последние годы, по принипу "всем, кому должен, прощаю".
Может, я тоже brajnwashed, но есть факты, с которыми не поспоришь:
- огромный и все увеличивающийся платежный дефицит
- огромный и все увеличивающийся дефицит бюджета
- огромный и все увеличивающийся долг населения
- практически нулевые сбережения населения
- падение обменного курса не то что по отношению к евро и иене, но даже к таким скромным деньгам, как наша гривня.
Очень нездоровая ситуация. Я вот избавился от долларов - нах. такую валюту. Лучше все в бизнес. Или если надоест крутиться - в недвижимость.
У нас может Пинчука и посадят, а в России Ходорковского уже посадили, но в целом ситуация зеркально противоположная американской
- платежный профицит
- профицит бюджета (правда Украина уже живет с дефицитным бюджетом -скоро опять выборы, будь они неладны, правительству нужны голоса пенсионеров)
- потребительское кредитование мало развито
- быстро растут сбережения населения; люди заработанное не тратят на внедорожник Ford с шестилитровым движком, чтобы на нем ездить на работу целых два года до кап ремонта, люди несут деньги в банк, чтобы банк выдал кредиты на производство
- обменный курс растет
Слушайте, уважаемая ответ из Evil, найдите-ка пожалуйста статистику, каков процент американских домохозяйств, чей equity за вычетом кредитов меньше, скажем $1000. То есть отрицательный, нулевой или положительный до одной тысячи долларов. Я точную цифру видел, но не помню. Почему-то уверен, что он будет очень большим, может быть, больше 50%. А у нас в Украине, и в России тоже, абсолютное большинство семей имеют equity больше $3000, может быть даже больше $5000. Потому что у нас все ВЛАДЕЮТ своими квартирами и машинами, и не спешат брать в долг.
АУ! Подавляющее большинство из нас богаче подавляющего большинства американцев. Уровень жизни ниже, потому что живем по средствам, а не в долг.
Я тут на соседней ветке распинался про то, что высокий относительно доходов уровень потребления характерен для бедного, а высокий уровень сбережений - для богатого. И это действительно правда.
Так кто все-таки brajnwashed???
Originally posted by Raven_2[/b]
And why you ignore my words about Rudi Arnstadt killed three days before that by western border guards?
There is a monument to victims of the Wall in Germany. 24 names on it, AFAIR. 16 killed by easterners and 8 by westerners.[/b]
Bah. To say that East Germany had government like in USSR it`s equal to say Iraq has government system like in USA.[/b]
They just follow they orders. I wonder why there were prosecuted at all. Someone, who really need to be prosecuted is their chief. Or someone higher.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Raven don't believe the BS your government has been putting you up to. Anyone (and I mean anyone) could clearly see the huge gap in the standard of living and the level of technology. Not only could, still can.
Originally posted by Toad
Scheissenwerfer?
Now THAT is one area where the Soviet Union obviously outperformed every other nation.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Simaril
They were mostly "Whites" (ex-tzar` officers). There a lot of book on this subject - it`s not an easy matter. Historians still discuss on that - one side argue that this was stupid decission, while others argue that there were a lot of documented treachery incidents from their side.
Originally posted by Raven_2
Cause system alone does nothing. There a lot of capitalistic and formally democratic countries (in Africa, for example), where people starving and from where they would emigrate at first possibility.
There were rumors that most of color-skinned people in USA never work and live mostly on doles (don`t sure that this is right word ... unemployment grant). And that average life time at their ghettos is ~ 25 for males. Is it true?
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Tell me Raven, do your hospitals use disposable suringes yet or do they still use and sharpen the old metallic ones? :D
I know a western woman who got into a car accident in Moscow. She almost died to the completely inept treatment untill her family finally found where she was and transported her away with a medical airlift.
Originally posted by Boroda
Is it a true American attitude? Do you also tell Jews to pack and go to their Israel? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, why so efficient economics like yours have 9000 billions external debts and still growing? 40% of them in Japan/China hands...
Originally posted by Thrawn
I can understand your frustration though, what with you being 21 and young Russian women fleeing you country, not only for the west, but heck they even think the middle and far east better than than old CCCP countries. ;) [/B]
Originally posted by Suave
It's not CZ.
Here's a hint, OSNAZ alpha teams liquidated a television station probably same day this photo was taken.
Oh and are you actually suggesting that when the USSR stole CZ it wasn't brutal ?
:rofl
Originally posted by Boroda
I spent 5 days in a village on lake Seliger (400km North from Moscow) last week. Between Volokolamsk and Rzhev the road is simply amazing. 20cm holes every 1.5 meters. It's frightening to drive there in the daylight. At night it's almost OK at 120-140 km/h ;)
Originally posted by Staga
Are you talking about russian groups who were attacking distant villages in eastern Finland and killing childrens, their mothers and old men when the adults were in front?
You are ****** twisted folks...
Originally posted by Thrawn
I've already explained this to you, but of course it doesn't fit your agenda you refuse to remember it, just like everytime someone kicks the hell out of your "arguements".
What you fail to mention (running theme with you, what with your selective editing), is how well the rest of the western world is doing economically. The CCCP had a crap standard of living during communism (as has been shown at least in regards to your abismal longevity and infant mortality rates). Although the CCCP was technologically advance compared to many countries, compared to the west it was far behind. I find it Ironic that you are using US/western European technology to even communicate with us.
I can understand your frustration though, what with you being 21 and young Russian women fleeing you country, not only for the west, but heck they even think the middle and far east better than than old CCCP countries. ;)
Originally posted by genozaur
We are so proud of our amazing girls who are so easily invading the West (and the East).
You really need genetic revolution, and fast.
An average American girl is so ugly that if she moves to Russia she will be a spinster for the rest of her life. And this is not a bad joke, it's the truth.
:rofl
Originally posted by Fishu
How many times it needs to be said that the finnish "concentration camps" were not extermination camps in any manner nor were they equal to german concentration camps in the manner they used it.
soviets did it, brits did it, americans did it, japanese did it... blaablaablaa.
For some reason nobody deems it a good idea to leave possible desants right behind the frontline.
For some reason its bloody hard for you russians to understand it, even though your country did it more than the finns ever could.
Seems to be also the only point you guys are hanging into and are bloody well over rating it.
Just like some people are finger pointing at finns for deporting less than dozen jews to germany, like the whole jewish population would been deported.
I'm sure some other people were deported to germany too, but nobody gives a crap for them...
Originally posted by ASTAC
Did you see my reply to that..The truth of what the Russian girls do in the Middle east...In fact after more research they are the MAJORITY in that profession...better to be a potato than stay home..
What average American girls are you looking at? If it's true your location says Brooklyn NY...how many average American girls can you have with Mostly Italian, Greek, and Irish peoples living there? Not a big enough cross section of the American Culture to make a call like that I think. Just a major European part.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Where ever you go in europe, you can be sure that the hookers are mostly russians.
This is pretty amazing that they travel thousands of kilometers to sell themselves, but they do.
Someone said once that beautiful women are the main merchandise of russia and he was pretty right on the money.
Poverty stricken young women get sold by busloads on slave markets. They're promised mid-waged jobs in the west but in reality they're sold as slaves.
Originally posted by ASTAC
I will maintain we have some beautiful girls here..however I'll also give in to agreeing that you have some great ones there..Here's one I dated a few years ago..she was from petrovodsk(think speeled way off), Karelia....to bad I don't have the girl or the Mustang anymore.
(http://www.geocities.com/sfs_tie_pilot/MVC-003F.JPG)
(http://www.geocities.com/sfs_tie_pilot/MVC-011F.JPG)
Originally posted by Toad
I'll be very nice and explain your ignorance as gently as I can.
quote: Not about the US recon plane on a parallel course (this is a fact),
No, it's not a fact, it's fiction.
KAL 007 crossed the RC track but never paralleled it. No RC ever flew a track like KAL flew. Ever.
quote: KE007, still steered by its compass, crossed the track of an American RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft that was on its way home from its duty station, flying over international waters, two hundred miles east of the Kamchatka Peninsula. The RC-135, a modified Boeing 707, was crammed with electronic gear designed to monitor a Soviet ballistic -- missile test that had been scheduled for that same night but had subsequently been cancelled.
Although the RC-135 flight was unpublicized, it was not illegal or especially sinister: such flights were part of the "national technical means of verification" mentioned, though coyly not described, in the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty then in force between the superpowers.
The RC-135 completed its leisurely sentry run off the Kamchatka coast, well north of KE007's track, and was back on the ground on Shemya Island, one of the Aleutians, a full hour before the shootdown.
Verified by people I knew flying the RC-135S that night.
So, again, you have no clue.
Originally posted by ASTAC
Here check out at direct link
Olga on "Sally" (66 Mustang) (http://www.geocities.com/sfs_tie_pilot/MVC-003F.JPG)
Olga at Center for Surface Combat Systems, Dam Neck (http://www.geocities.com/sfs_tie_pilot/MVC-011F.JPG)
(http://www.geocities.com/sfs_tie_pilot/MVC-003F.JPG)
Originally posted by ASTAC
Nope She didn't tell me that.
OK, exactly !
That was the purpose of the West's Drang to topple the USSR. In order to enslave the Soviet people. Because for the mother-loving bastards in the West it is not enough that milliones of Slavic people were sold in the Western and Eastern countries since the ancient times (even the English word 'slave' is the derivative from the term 'Slavian/Slovian' denoting the Slavic people).
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's your own mafia that's selling the people handsomehunk. Most of europe is already scourged by the spread of russian crime and it's getting continuously worse. It really was a splendid time when they didn't let you guys out of the country.
I never really understood untill now how russians are messed up in a evil, dangerous way. I had only a faint clue and even then I chose to stay away from them. I thought that the liberation from communism would have opened them to normal thinking. How wrong I was.
They are simply enemies of a western society.
Originally posted by Fishu
How many times it needs to be said that the finnish "concentration camps" were not extermination camps in any manner nor were they equal to german concentration camps in the manner they used it.
Originally posted by Fishu
soviets did it, brits did it, americans did it, japanese did it... blaablaablaa.
For some reason nobody deems it a good idea to leave possible desants right behind the frontline.
For some reason its bloody hard for you russians to understand it, even though your country did it more than the finns ever could.
Seems to be also the only point you guys are hanging into and are bloody well over rating it.
Originally posted by Estel
OSNAZ is a part of Radio-Countermeasures Battalion. They are for listen and pelengate radiostations. Alpha team is a part of KGB special operations center.
What they claimed to be "russian mafia" apear to be armenian and jew/armenian groups.
Originally posted by Raven_2
I`m agree with you, but I was on defending first and this was my start point: there no angels, each system and each disadvantages, each country commited bad things in it past. Still, there lot of people that think about USSR/Russia like Empire of Evil with awfull living conditions and think that USA is something totally diferent, country and regime without bad sides at all.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
drive with russian license plates.
Originally posted by genozaur
Initial spy phase : KAL-007 retransmit link to RC-135.
Second spy phase : the American spy satellite sucks up the KAL-007 triggered information leak from the Soviet radar activity. (Most likely without the direct retransmit from KAL-007).
And, in my books, the name of the satellite was 'MARISAT'.
Sincerely,
P.P.S. When I say 'It's a fact', I always mean that I am the witness. So, don't overfeed me with "the press". :aok :D ;) :confused:
Originally posted by Toad
each country commited bad things in it past.
But you'll note that there is ONE country whose citizens will not admit that their country "commited bad things in it past".
This thread makes it perfectly clear which country that is.
Originally posted by Boroda
About Soviet "partisans" you always mention and their "atrocities": recon/diversion Red Army groups are responcible for ~150 civilian deaths. But did anyone count victims of Finnish "skyddskеr"? :confused:
Originally posted by Boroda
Agreed. According to you it's the US of A.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Staga
Fck. And if Hellenic culture was so great some times ago, why Greece now in total ass?
Originally posted by Raven_2
Cause by driving back invincible (at that time) nazi army from Moscow to Berlin our ancestors prove themself that we are not ubermensch, but great and powerful nation.
And if Hellenic culture was so great some times ago, why Greece now in total ass?
Originally posted by Raven_2
BTW, can you name on of world-known greece authors of modern age? Philosophers? Publicists? Or by "have an awesome culture" you mean "nad an awesome history"?
Originally posted by Raven_2
Sure. On of this comes from Gebbels initiated investigation and second was from Beaver, who even not a historian, just journalist. Great sources!
Originally posted by Suave
Maybe something is lost in the translation. Can you provide a source for this information?
OCHA3 (osnaz) means "Special-Designation Special Purpose Detachments"
For example the Osnaz of the MVD is OMON.
I was refering to the Osnaz of the KGB Border Guards Directorate.
These detachments are subdivided into "Alpha teams" Intervention units who may be tasked for maritime assassination, quieting civic unrest and hostage rescue, reconnaissance, abduction and other mischeif.
If I remember correctly, in time of war these units will become subordinate to the GRU.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I'm sure that all the confusion with the special unit names caused the lack of information that killed all those people in the theatre kidnapping.
Was real smart to fill the room with a deadly gas and not tell the rescue personnel how to treat it.
Originally posted by Estel
Please, don't begin it again. You wasn't there, so you don't know what really happen.
Originally posted by Boroda
[BUSSR wasn't an "evil empire". It was just another, different, way of social organisation, that had it's obvious advantages and drawbacks. I am far from thinking that you are absolutely satisfied [/B]
Originally posted by Toad
Maybe we'll miss you, maybe we won't.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to Staga
>>If you are so great then why is your police robbing tourists?
Fck. And if Hellenic culture was so great some times ago, why Greece now in total ass?
"Ancestors", Staga. It`s keyword. For ordinary russian Great Patriotic War is something like war for independance for for ordinary USAer.
Originally posted by prkele
Is it obvious that Siaf is from Finland?
BTW no1 in Finland denies those camps, they were there, period. But nobody was accused or convicted for attrocities or genocides even Russians were very eager to do so after the war. If there happened such things, I am very sure someone would have been convicted and hanged. (BTW that photo is a fake, taken after war by ruskies)
1 more thing: War is allways ugly killing business, it is never great in anyways, only ruskies can call war as "great patriotic war" like it was something good and admirable.
Originally posted by SkyWolf
No... I'm pretty sure it was evil. Why else would I have been taught in gradeschool to duck my head and scrunch down next to a wall to thwart the USSR's eminent Nuclear Attack? :p
Woof
Fighting the Nazi Germany and her allies was a good deed, and crushing Nazi Germany and her allies was the feat still admired by good people around the globe. And it really was the Great Patriotic War for the Soviet People.
Originally posted by Suave
Estel I don't think you know what non-profit means.
And there is something else you're not understanding in the translation.
Alpha group, beta group, kaskad, vympel, delfin, omon, grom, these are all known as osnaz here, if they were military units then they would be called spetsnaz here.
Those guys who gassed and beat and killed protesters in the 80s and 90s, or who liquidated TV stations in Lituanian and assaulted the TV tower didn't belong to any army electronic interception unit I'm sure.
Although they were sometimes disguised as paratroopers when they were assassinating people like journalists and police officers in the baltics 89-91.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
wow this thread still going....
commies suck
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
After your cowardly attack which forced Finland to seek alliance with Germany and the end of the war your country has achieved little to none other than loathe and disgust from the rest of the planet.
Enjoy your stay.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to MiloMorai (BTW, your nickname means "to soil/besmear the soap" in russian)
>>Come now commie, name one Russian from 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, 3000 years ago.
Poor boy, your total ignorance is awesome. As always. Kulikovskaya battle with khan Mamay (1380 AC) was in 6886 year by slavic calendar. So, slavic people exist from 5506 BC. Less then chinese, but much more then greece.
Names? Get any good book on slavic history and read, cause I`m not a history teacher to educate you here. Good sources are ancient historians: Eliy Spartian and Capitoliy "Biography of Piy", Flaviy Vopisk "Biography of Aureliy", Pliniy, Ptolemey, Strabon, Raphael Volateranian, Procop Cesarian and ma-a-any others.
One name for you, so you can`t say that I just bla-bla insted of direct answer. Need name? OK. Attila. Huns had slavic origins, you know.
Another name is knyaz Tovazov, ally of the Great Pompey in war with pontic king Mitridat.
I`m glad for you that you don`t ashamed to show your ignorance in public, though 8-)
[to genazaur]
About origins "slavic". It comes from sarmatian word "slouo" (means "word"). And "slave" was just gena etymological guess.
Гена, блин. Фигли людей в заюлуждение вводишь?
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По мнению Иоанна Дубравия, славяне или словины получили свое имя от «slouo», что у сарматов означало «слово», так как все сарматские народы, рассеянные по земному пространству, говорят на одном языке. Из-за единообразия в произношении их и стали называть словины. Это согласуется с утверждением Мартина Кромера о том, что словины получили свое имя от слова, поскольку отличались правдивостью, были тверды и верны данному ими слову. И сегодня у поляков и богемцев весьма порицаются те, кто не держат данного обещания, по их выражению, «добрым словом», при этом люди благородного происхождения готовы пойти на любые лишения и принять саму смерть, нежели изменить своему слову. Тем же, кто все-таки не хранит верность данному обещанию, мстят не только пощечиной, но и оружием.
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Мавро Орбини, "Историография народа славянского" ( 1606 год )
Про руссов
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Сейчас же их принято называть русскими, т. е. рассеянными, так как по-русски или по-славянски Россея означает не что иное, как рассеяние. И не без основания прозвали их руссами или рассеянными, ведь после того, как славяне заняли всю Европейскую и часть Азиатской Сарматии, их колонии рассеяны от Ледовитого океана до Средиземного моря и Адриатического залива, от Большого моря до Балтийского Океана. Более того, славяне руссы, по свидетельству Иоахима Мейера(1), высылали колонистов и во Фландрию, где их теперь называют рутенами. По этой же причине и греческие писатели, как сообщает Прокопий Кесарийский, называли их споры, т. е. рассеянный народ.
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[/to genazaur]
>>Tell me Raven, when did the Soviets finally pay off their LL debt to the USA?
USA never missed the chance to make money on others blood. "Help" from "allies"... While this bastards get their tan in Africa, our people destroy main army of nazi.
BTW, in 1941-1943 USSR recive only 7% of whoole 11 mlrd shipment, other 93% was recived in 1944-1945. So, nazi were driven back by russia arms. Debt was 1.300.000.000$ (only 11.1% of whoole shipment), other 88.9% were returned unused. Now debt is about 100.000.000$ (and 30.000.000.000$ for Britain, but USA "forgive" it), by agreement with Reigan, it would be payed off up to 2030. Now we have much more in our stabilization fund - but there is no reason to pay off whole sum now, cause we have more then enough time for that.
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Holy crap Holden McGroin were did those 2 bozos come from?
I have never seen any better examples of brainwashing come out of the now defunct CCCP before.
Better to let them live in their fantasy world reading Pravda.
Should I mention the untold number of lives lost transporting Lend-Lease supplies to the Soviet Union prier to June 6 1944 so the could fight their GPW?
It is good that the Allies were fighting the Germans in the MTO for those German troops would have helped in their fight against the Commies. It was good that the Allies were fighting in the air in the ETO since that tied more troops (ground and air) that could have been tranferred to the EF. Never mind the manpower tied up in defending German and rebuilding the factories. Yes, those weapons lost would have been of much help for the Germans on the EF.
Originally posted by bikekil
Genozaur, the way you are avoiding to answer my questions or any "salt" of what i'm posting to you is just brilliant, instead of that you are serving the "border conflict" theory and refering to your version of being wise, thet is to do not declare a war to the Soviets who already attacked Poland, but then you someway can't see that when armies of two countries are fighting, you have a war and a side who stike on the other is an attacker, finally that if one country grab half of other country's land, it's not a border conflict - that you can't see :)
Then, what is the point in declaring war to a country who already attacked your land? The declaration is pointless in fact, as you are already in a state of war :)
Other than that, Sikorski, made a right decision to declare war to Russia afterwards. Surely it change nothing from a military point of view, as Poland wa sconquered, but if you know a bit about a political side of things, you have to admit that it was a political decision (in my opinion a wise decision) and Sikorski made it as a hear of 4th military power during the WW2... 4th biggest military power, who had no country itself, but got the opportunities and equipment from the western Alles.
Declaring a war to the Soviets was a demonstration and declaration of something - of a fact that we will not remember who attacked us on 17.09.1939 and we won't let it be.
Happened that we got traded to Stalin after WW2, but still we managed to kicked the commies outta our lands :)
Now, you can back to the border conflict and "Stupid Sikorski" theories... but still, why should i care? :)
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Genozaur and Boroda:
I used "shambles" as a descriptor of the Soviet economy as a relative term.
During Stalin's first 5 year plan, which concentrated on agriculture, from 1929 and 1934 the number of cattle in the country dropped from 58 million to 33.5 million. The number of horses dropped from 32.6 million to 17.3 million. Livestock totals did not reach their pre-Five Year Plan levels again until the mid-1950’s. Steel production dramatically increased, was only 60% of Stalin's goal.
The second five year plan, ending with CCCP almost catching Germany in steel production, but failing to reach the recommended production levels in such crucial areas as coal, oil, and cement production.
While the CCCP's economy grew at 12 to 13% in the 1930's, 2 times nothing is still nothing.
It grew at spectacular rates percentage wise, but when the CCCP fell apart, it's economy was about the same as Holland. 50 years of double digit growth, and no bigger than the economy of the Netherlands.
edit> Vikings, Magyars, and Mongols are Barbaric tribes, and as Russians are decendants of Viking trading culture that stretched from the Baltic to the middle east, Russians are barbarians, or at least decendants of such.
To satisfy the state's need for increased food supplies, the First Five-Year Plan called for the organization of the peasantry into collective units that the authorities could easily control. This collectivization program entailed compounding the peasants' lands and animals into collective farms (kolkhozy; sing., kolkhoz --see Glossary) and state farms (sovkhozy; sing., sovkhoz --see Glossary) and restricting the peasants' movement from these farms. The effect of this restructuring was to reintroduce a kind of serfdom into the countryside. Although the program was designed to affect all peasants, Stalin in particular sought to eliminate the wealthiest peasants, known as kulaks. Generally, kulaks were only marginally better off than other peasants, but the party claimed that the kulaks had ensnared the rest of the peasantry in capitalistic relationships. In any event, collectivization met widespread resistance not only from the kulaks but from poorer peasants as well, and a desperate struggle of the peasantry against the authorities ensued. Peasants slaughtered their cows and pigs rather than turn them over to the collective farms, with the result that livestock resources remained below the 1929 level for years afterward. The state in turn forcibly collectivized reluctant peasants and deported kulaks and active rebels to Siberia. Within the collective farms, the authorities in many instances exacted such high levels of procurement that starvation was widespread.
Russia Transformation and Terror
http://workmall.com/wfb2001/russia/russia_history_transformation_and_terror.html
Source: The Library of Congress Country Studies
-----------------
The reduction in the number of horses was due to the increasing use of tractors and other machinery in agriculture, and the turn to the motorization of the Red Army.
So, your opinion about Stalin's industrialization is wrong. Have the courage to accept it.
Your protracted verbalizations about the state of the Soviet economy closer to the year of the USSR disintegration are the songs from another opera. I don't have time to discuss it, but rest assured that it's also a piece of Western propaganda, because the drastic imbalance of the USSR economy (war and heavy industries too much prevailing over consumer goods production during 45 years of peace = for two generations) does not mean "nothing". Here your impressions are also wrong.
Holden, besides reading there is also such thing as thinking.
:p
Originally posted by straffo
You asked for the stats , I posted them
But it would be an apple/orange comparaison.
Proove me the Curzon line had no impact on the local population.
Originally posted by Toad
Read what's there, not what you wish was there. What I said was these people were killed by your system. The Soviet system of government, forced on the East Germans after WW2, killed these people.
What other government system SHOOTS their own citizens in the back if they try to leave the country?
[/b]
Why don't you post the rest of it? Show folks what your political system does to the citizens of paradise when they try to leave?
So what would YOU have told the US forces to do? Would YOU order them across the Berlin Wall to pick up Fecther? If they had done so, what would be the probable reaction of the East German Border Guards?
Fechter was an East German, shot by East Germans, dying on East German soil.
Had US troops gone to get him, you'd be here now whining that we "invaded the GDR" or other nonsense.
You're so desperate, it's comical.
[/b]
Typical East German Border Guards guarding an artificial border created by the Soviets. Note how these two were not prosecuted until after reunification and the vestiges of a totalitarian system that murders its own citizens for trying to leave "paradise" had been swept away.
>>Once again, you show your total ignorance.
As Holden pointed out, the Native Americans are not "kept" there. They, unlike your citizens, were always free to go where they wanted to go without needing governmental permission or ID cards. [/B]
Originally posted by Simaril
You know, we had a civil war too. Ours was 50 years or so before yours, and we therefore had more excuse for barbaric behavior.
And our leader's attitude toward the rebels?
"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
The president of the rebel forces -- our "White Russians" -- was briefly jailed, tehn released and spent the remainder of his days free. He was also free to speak in opposition to the government, which he did often without being punished. Generals who violated their oath of loyalty to the Union, and fought courageously against the army that trained them, were left free as well. One (Longstreet) became the ambassador to Turkey; others served as US government officials, or returned to the practice of law. Assassinations and executions: none.
USSR solution to threatened rebellion?
Bullet to the head.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's your own mafia that's selling the people handsomehunk. Most of europe is already scourged by the spread of russian crime and it's getting continuously worse. It really was a splendid time when they didn't let you guys out of the country.
I never really understood untill now how russians are messed up in a evil, dangerous way. I had only a faint clue and even then I chose to stay away from them. I thought that the liberation from communism would have opened them to normal thinking. How wrong I was.
They are simply enemies of a western society.
Originally posted by Toad
This post clearly shows that:
1) You have no idea of what a "fact" is.
2) You have no idea of the capabilities/mission of the RC-135.
3) You have no idea of the capabilites of the US satellite recon program.
4) You have your very own tinfoil hat, with embossed nametag.
Originally posted by Raven_2
to MiloMorai (BTW, your nickname means "to soil/besmear the soap" in russian)
>>Come now commie, name one Russian from 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, 3000 years ago.
Originally posted by genozaur
why does it take an American spy plane and the American spy satellite to make it a flying threesome ?
:rofl
Originally posted by genozaur
Toad, stop blaming the "evil" USSR for the Berlin Wall jumpers' deaths.