Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TBolt A-10 on February 26, 2005, 01:16:46 PM
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I was thumbing through my old flight training manual (wish I had the money to go back and finish - someday) and I came across a term that I hadn't thought about in a while: wake turbulence
And, I gotta say that I think it would be AWESOME to have wake turbulence modelled in the game. HTC wouldn't have to draw anything because it's an invisible phenomenon. HT is a pilot and must fully understand the characteristics of wake turbulence.
Immersion factor in AH2 would increase because we, as "pilots," would have to be mindful of wake turbulence when near the large buffs - during flight and especially on approach/take-off.
One thing I always thought was SO gamey about these online sims is the disorder that exists during take-off and landing...25 planes all lifting and approaching the threshold at the same time. Well, when a buff is in site, that gamey factor would go right out the door - at least until it landed/took-off.
PLEASE consider adding wake turbulence to AH2, HT. :)[/color]
It might actually be FUN to take a spin in the turbulence from time-to-time during those long escort missions. :D :lol
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Read on about wake turbulence...
...maybe you will get an idea about how complicated that would be to model. I PROMISE you they won't model it.
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Originally posted by jodgi
Read on about wake turbulence...
...maybe you will get an idea about how complicated that would be to model. I PROMISE you they won't model it.
what about wake turbulence do you think would be beyond HT's ability to model it?
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Yeah, take offs and landings need to be more realistic. Dont like 20 planes all taking off at the same time from the same hangar.
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I remember that in some flight sim, or another, they modeled wake turbulence just by introducing some >noise< in the flight stability when you were a certain distance behind another plane.
That wouldn't be that difficult to model; and, the turbulence added a nice gesture toward reality.
It ought not to be on for friendlies though, as we have no air traffic control at the fields, and I'd hate to be landing a Spitfire when a pack of friendly B-17's came barrelling low over the field.
But, a zero chasing an enemy corsair, yeah, there should be something there in the way of disturbed air.
Let's have it!
regards,
Airman T. E. Shaw
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Wake turbulence happens "after" liftoff (and on approach) and when the planes is slow and dirtied up. Buffs in a clean configuration and screaming along the deck will not induce enuff wake turbulence to really cause you problems.
If anyone has ever taken just abou tany plane and flown ito its own turbulence you will may be shocked as to just how much you might encounter.
That might be fun.
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Originally posted by TEShaw
It ought not to be on for friendlies though,
Let's have it!
regards,
Airman T. E. Shaw
I'm glad you (and the others) support the idea. :) But, I have to disagree with disabling wake turbulence for friendlies. In fact, wake turbulence ought to be enabled for BOTH friendlies and enema.
Having a sense of reality during approaches and lift-offs is what would add to the immersion factor. And, most of the time, we're near friendlies when flyin' low 'n slow. ;)
I remember that in some flight sim, or another, they modeled wake turbulence just by introducing some >noise< in the flight stability when you were a certain distance behind another plane.
yea, I can't imagine why it would be overly difficult for HTC to model wake turbulence. I mean, look at everything else we can do in this simulation, now-a-days. :eek: :lol
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Wake turbulence is cited as a major factor in air combat by pretty much every famous pilot.
Extreme Air Racing models wake turbulence. So we know it's possible.
g00b
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A simplified model wouldnt be too hard to model as it could be done much like the airshow smoke, only invisable. I think it would be interesting but Im sure there are more critical things to work on.
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
I'm glad you (and the others) support the idea. :) But, I have to disagree with disabling wake turbulence for friendlies. In fact, wake turbulence ought to be enabled for BOTH friendlies and enema.
Yeah, turn off killshooter, too! In the war if some dude flew in front of your bullet stream he died. Let's get some real realism :D
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Wake Turbulance and Wing Tip Vortices only occour when the an aircraft is developing lift...
I think this would be an awesome add on to the game....Not only will it make aerial fighting more difficult - - it will make take off and landings much more fun....
Wake turbulance and wingtip vortices sink after rushing off the wings of an aircraft....
As a general rule in all aviation, pilots are trained to observe the point of impact (wheels to ground) when larger aircraft are infront of them and land beyond that point, or take off at a point of the runway before the larger aircraft developes lift and begins to fly, in order to avoid the sinking turbulance....
Im all for it, definately would be fun =)
cav58D
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Originally posted by DamnedRen
Yeah, turn off killshooter, too! In the war if some dude flew in front of your bullet stream he died. Let's get some real realism :D
Agreed. :)
But, this thread is about wake turbulence. :D
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Sounds intriguing, and seems more realistic taxiing, takeoff, and landing ought to be part of the package.
At present, it's ridiculous to be taking off and landing on the same runway passing right through other aircraft, especially when meeting them head-on.
Maybe ought to activate 10 to 15 mph ground level winds at all airfields and brief all pilots which runways (directions) to use taking off and landing. The present unconsequential runway melee doesn't do justice to the game.
Then again, maybe none of us are stalwart enough to endure the outraged shrieks from all the air field accidents that would come from the teeniest ratcheting up of realistic metal vs. metal.
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Oh boy. Another way that I could use my Weedeater impersonations. :D
Pretty cool idea. Would be interesting to say the least.
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
Having a sense of reality during approaches and lift-offs is what would add to the immersion factor. And, most of the time, we're near friendlies when flyin' low 'n slow.
Agreed this is on Wake Turbulence but seeing as how you brought up "immersion factor" wouldn't it be nice to add to the immersion by turning killshooter off too? I mean we are talking about making it all more realistic :D
What would be more real than saddling up up on some enemy plane, hitting his wake turbulence and killing a friendly due to having your nose pushed to the right and killing the friendly? What realism!!!
:aok
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Wake turb is not that hard to experience in RL. Sure HT and anyone else who has done any aeros will have experienced the 'bump' you get when pulling a loop and you meet your own wake on pull out.
Scared the heck outta me the first time I did it. Try and aim for it now :D
Gatso
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Originally posted by gatso
Wake turb is not that hard to experience in RL. Sure HT and anyone else who has done any aeros will have experienced the 'bump' you get when pulling a loop and you meet your own wake on pull out.
Scared the heck outta me the first time I did it. Try and aim for it now :D
Gatso
:eek: Didn't even know about that 'bump' at the end of a loop. This should be interesting if it gets modelled. Thanks for the input, Gatso.
lol, Ren...yes...bring back PNG & friendly fire. :)
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Please HT add Wake Turbulence, Lag'n warp don't piss me enought !
:D
Seriously : no wake please.
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Hmm, does people here mistake WW2 prop wash to wake turbulence? When attacking B17 formation the prop wash should be the cause of bumping around... you can feel it easily in gliders when youre attached into your TOW plane. Fly just below the tow plane and your ride is definately really bumpy.
You can test it with even Cessna. Pull 60 degree or steeper turn and keep it level (here you can test your flying skills.. ) and when you complete your turn you should feel your plane hitting turbulent air. Feels nice after you have gotten through the initial shock (if you didnīt know whats coming).
Real wake turbulence is really a bad thing... it can flip your plane inverted instanly. Saw a film during my ATC training where a business jet was flown during tests at 25000 ft 1 mile behind and couple of hundred feet below DC10 (or similar) and when it hit the WT it just flipped over..
Thats why there has to be 2 or 3 min wake turbulence separation between light and heavy/medium class AC.
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doing this would be a waste of resources that could otherwise be spent on:
1: new planes
2: new maps
3: tod
4: bug fixes
this sort of silly addon much like the shootable 0.45 is a waste of time and wont add ANYTHING to the game.
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Hmm, does people here mistake WW2 prop wash to wake turbulence?
Real wake turbulence is really a bad thing... it can flip your plane inverted instanly. Saw a film during my ATC training where a business jet was flown during tests at 25000 ft 1 mile behind and couple of hundred feet below DC10 (or similar) and when it hit the WT it just flipped over..
Thats why there has to be 2 or 3 min wake turbulence separation between light and heavy/medium class AC.
I saw the same video during my previous training, LLv. And, yes...that's the phenomenon that I was asking to be modelled; not prop wash (thought we had that already ??).
I'm envisioning 3 sets of heavy bombers on final approach to A:### while all small fighters deliberately choose a different runway to land/take-off from. Or, the fighter pilots would have to be smart enough to land beyond the buff's point of touchdown (just like at real airports).
Others here have noted that wake turbulence can even be found during aerobatics, etc.
Personally, I don't think adding wake turbulence would be "a waste of time." But, we'll have to see what HT and his co-workers think. :)
HT?
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Wake turbulence happens "after" liftoff (and on approach) and when the planes is slow and dirtied up. Buffs in a clean configuration and screaming along the deck will not induce enuff wake turbulence to really cause you problems.[/QUOTE
Wake turbulence happens in all modes of flight, it starts at rotation of nose wheel and ends at touching of nose wheel on landing. (Of course slow and dirty does cause the bigger effect as in takeoff or landing phase) Jet blast or prop wash was the name given for that portion of flight prior to and after those points of flight. In Air Traffic we deal with this everyday.
As LLv posted earlier wake turbulence in flight is a big factor when in-trail and slightly lower of the larger aircraft in front of you. Wake Turb moves outward and down from the wings in a counter clockwise rotation.
I would like to see this effect also introduced into the game, but without any wind as it is now, wake turb tends to hang around a little more before it disipates, imagine what a furball would feel like after a few turns with 8 other planes...lol ( to heck with shooting anyone I just wanna find some smooth air). If you have ever done the hard 360 turn in a boat and hit your wake as you complete the turn(not really fast to create the 3 foot wave though...LOL) thats how it feels doing it in an aircraft (thats only if you have maintained the same altitude during the turn....lets you know if ya did it right...LOL)
The idea of adding noise into the flight model when in-trail sounds like a good place to start. As long as I retain my wings when I hit that pothole in the air I'll be happy.
Rob
TwrATM
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I'm sure HTC could model wake turbulence if they wanted to, but why do they want to?
To model wake turbulence would take up a great deal of processing power, and for what? To experience a wingover every now and the when landing behind a buff?
We don't even have general turbulence in AH (and I'm NOT saying we should) and wind is turned off. Only one (civilian) sim has decent turbulence modelling, and that is X-Plane. If you think MSFS has turbulence, think again. X-Plane actually models chaotic airflow around the plane.
I doubt that anyone has seriously considered wake turbulence for any sim, it would be a massive undertaking if you're to do it even just halfway decent.
The slipstream turbulence, the "bump" as someone called it, would be technically feasable to do. But why have the AH server keeping track of hundreds of slipstreams and giving people a little "bump" if they happen to fly though one? I bet HTC are already trying to ease the AH server load and these (pointless) slipstreams would only make that more difficult.
I'm not being negative, even if I don't think this is a good idea. I too want things to move forward, it's just not time for wake turbulence yet.
I KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that wake turbulence, even slipstream turbulence, won't be modelled any time even remotely soon. Current home computers can't really handle it, would take quite an effort to do, it doesn't do much for a combatsim anyway, it would kill the online servers and so on and on and on....
Was that clear enough?
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Originally posted by TwrATM
In Air Traffic we deal with this everyday.
As LLv posted earlier wake turbulence in flight is a big factor when in-trail and slightly lower of the larger aircraft in front of you. Wake Turb moves outward and down from the wings in a counter clockwise rotation.
I would like to see this effect also introduced into the game, but without any wind as it is now, wake turb tends to hang around a little more before it disipates, imagine what a furball would feel like after a few turns with 8 other planes...lol ( to heck with shooting anyone I just wanna find some smooth air). If you have ever done the hard 360 turn in a boat and hit your wake as you complete the turn(not really fast to create the 3 foot wave though...LOL) thats how it feels doing it in an aircraft (thats only if you have maintained the same altitude during the turn....lets you know if ya did it right...LOL)
Rob
TwrATM [/B]
Yeah, right! We should ask for a B757 drones flying approaches to all airfields on all approaches, nice, low slow and dirty, so everyone can experience the thrill of a rollover on final.:aok
Personally I'd rather dogfight new plane types than worry too much about wake turbulence or prop wash.
Hmmm, someone mentioned prop wash already modeled in the game. Really? I normally get pretty close on a pass and the air is smooth as silk. I wonder they are comparing yanking and banking due to being excited and have the plane all over the place? Some guys get excited, pull the stick as they pull the trigger and may not even conciously realize they're doing it. :)
All in all, it might be nice for role play in TOD. Imagine flying a formation of 50 buffs and they're all bouncing like crazy trying to close up for mutual protection from swarming fighters. Makes ya kinda wonder how many waste gunners mighta wasted other buffs in those melees. Anyone ever hear of friendly fire from buff gunners? :D
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I agree, there are more priorities out there right now than this, but it's an interesting idea. I am sure the original poster of this thread just wanted to bounce the idea around and see what came of it.
Rob
TwrATM
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What jodgi said.
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How do you KNOW? As stated before there are already games that offer online play with wake turbulence. Go play Extreme Air Racing. So it's not impossible. A low fidelity modeling which just introduces some random jittering may even be fairly easy.
I think many people here are failing to understand what a large effect this had. It was impossible to shoot accurately while in the slipstream of any aircraft. Hitting another fighters slipstream while in the midst of combat was enough to flip you over. The slipstream from bombers was enough to send fighters completely out of control.
If this is purported to be a simulation we should see this eventually modeled as it was a huge factor in combat. And it would add greatly to the immersion.
g00b