Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rude on February 27, 2005, 11:19:02 AM
-
Egypt!
-
No, it was the Finns that changed Mubarak's mind.
-
One of you is right.
:p
-
But, muslims and Arabs do not want democracy or freedoms!
They want to be ruled, that's their culture :rolleyes:
-
same as they did when they recognized the state of isreal under saddat without the need for an interventionist occupation.
(that was under carter btw)
amazing what a people can do on thier own.
-
You guys may be a little overanxious or have pretty loose definitions of democracy.
Honestly I think it will be years before we know whether Bush was right or wrong, and even then the answer may be mixed, depending on who you talk to.
I think the news from Egyt was good, but I'm going to be skeptical for a long time to come on any recent democracy in the Middle East.
-
Sooooooo,
Let's say I tell you there is a bear trying to kill someone behind a black curtain. So I pick up my legally purchased and registered pistol and fire into the curtain until my clip is gone. We then find out that there was no bear, but the curtain was too heavy and needed holes in it.
Would it be wrong of me to say the curtain was my objective all along?
-
Dunno, but I guess you could be happy/satisfied that the curtain has been fixed.
-
The owner(s) of the curtain should have fixed it.
-SW
-
That's not what he asked. ;)
-
Yeah, well...
-SW
-
perhaps another analogy would be better as i have no real empathy for curtains. can we say that the curtain was made of kittens or babies or something?
-
That's the only analogy you're getting!
Don't make me break out another one Mr.!
-
well dernit, thats what i was askin fer!
-
Originally posted by Toad
Dunno, but I guess you could be happy/satisfied that the curtain has been fixed.
depending on how many men you lose in the process, how much you paid, and how much your kids and grandkids will be paying for fixing someone else's curtain.
personally I think we overpaid to fix a curtain that wasn't ours.
-
Given that the ammunition you used to salt and pepper the curtain cost me (not you) between $300 and 400 billion dollars, yes you were wrong not to tell me what your true intentions were.
PLUS, you haven't convinced me that the curtains real problem was that it was too heavy. Not by a longshot.
-
current curtain cost ticker (http://costofwar.com/)
-
You guys have gone far beyond the boundaries of MT's curtain analogy.
You want to discuss the Iraq war? Fine.
I think my views have been pretty well explained on the BBS, but I'm always up for Round 254.
I'll wager the majority of those who view themeselves in oppostion to my view can't state accurately either.
-
MT thats just unsafe!
You always confirm your target before you shoot. It could be two kids making out in there.
-
Originally posted by Rude
Egypt!
Bush selling democracy around the wrold, that's really funny coming from the largest republic on the planet. Read the Constitution. The US form of government is that of a republic, not a democracy. It'a a Democracy in name only. And what about Bush spreading democracy , someone please show me the area in the Constitution that mandates that the office holder of the Presidency spread Democracy around the world.
According to the 20th Amendment to the Constitution, a President's term of office begins at 12:00 p.m. (noon) on January 20th of the year following an election. In order to assume his/her duties, the President-elect must recite the Oath of Office. The Oath is administered by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. The President-elect places his hand on the Bible, raises his right hand, and takes the Oath as directed by the Chief Justice. The Oath, as stated in Article II, Section I, Clause 8 of the U.S. Constitution, is as follows:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Anyone see in that oath where it says and spread democracy around the world? I sure don’t.
The Vice President also takes an oath of office. Until 1933, the Vice President took the oath of office in the Senate. Today, both the President and Vice President are inaugurated in the same ceremony. The Vice President's oath is administered immediately before the President's. The Vice President's oath may be administered by the retiring vice president, by a member of Congress, or by some other government official, such as a justice of the Supreme Court. The Vice President's oath is as follows:
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same: that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
Notice that absent from the President’s oath is the swearing of allegiance and the obligation to protect and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The President only promises to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution to the best of his ability. Makes one wonder just what is Bush’s ability?
-
So by your parameters we should withdraw all disaster aid outside our borders. All US military assets should be withdrawn back to the US and the governement should take no active role in overseas affairs. After all none of that has anything to do with defending the constitution does it.
-
i'm with finrod, let the savages kill each other, they may figure out how to live together in another thousand years or more.
-
Originally posted by Finrod
So by your parameters we should withdraw all disaster aid outside our borders. All US military assets should be withdrawn back to the US and the governement should take no active role in overseas affairs. After all none of that has anything to do with defending the constitution does it.
They are not my parameters, they are the parameters of the oath of office of the two highest government offices in our nation. I never said to withdraw anything. I did say "show me the area in the Constitution that mandates that the office holder of the Presidency spread Democracy around the world. " I also noted that our form of government is not a democracy but that of a republic.
It is interesting that the attackers on 9/11 did not have to fight their way ashore or across our borders to kill thousands of American Citizens, they just had to show up to win.
As for disater aid , I think America will always help others, I just don't want to be told that we still have hungry kids here or sick kids that can't afford food or health care or can't be educated because there isn't enough money in the federal budget.
and I don't want you or your kids to pay for spreading democracy around the world. I want all of us to pay our fare share to be safe here at home.
the next 9/11 and they all say it is coming , will not just kill thousands. Have you ever seen Smallpox or th plague perhaps , anthrax, I have in VietNam in 1968 as a medic.
A biological attack has already taken place in this country, anthrax, killed six postal workers and shut down two postal centers for the better part of a year. But still our boards remain wide open.
Hell they woulnd't even have to hijack a plane, they would just have to show up at the airport and sit around for perhaps two hours. Do that on a Wednesday, first case wouldn't hit the hospitals until late friday, early Saturday, be dead by Sunday.
By Monday there would be a thousand new cases in the hospital , by Tuesday they would have the autospy results of the first patient and ten thousands patients nation wide. by Wednesday every nation in the world would close it's boards to Americans. becaue over 150,000 people would be infected.
Bring out your dead,
-
This idea is called "Isolationism", attractive as it may seem, it doesn't work.
There is no clause in the oath for what you seek. So as I said, by these parameters, we must withdraw to our borders, and trouble ourselves with the rest of the world no more.
Personally I think this would be a certifiably bad idea. I think what you really want Traveler is some moderation.
-
Originally posted by Toad
No, it was the Finns that changed Mubarak's mind.
Toad; sorry but I have to ask you something... is everything ok?
For some reason you seem to be quite bitter nowadays?
-
I think I'm just getting older.
I don't seem to have the tolerance I used to have when a solar putzonium storm sweeps across the intardnet.
Lately, the meters at the International Society for the Quantificiation of Putz Posts have been pegging out in the red.
-
What about isolationism doesn't work, exactly?
-
If we go to an Isolationist stance the world will pass us by. The world has become a global marketplace, something we helped to happen BTW. Withdrawing now would leave us militarily, and economically at a disadvantage. If the rest of the world flips us the bird economically we will flounder about in our closed system with no trade in and no trade out. I don't know about you, but I like my current standard of living.
-
Hey!
I have a legitimate hijack going here with strong possibilities for input from a wide range of twinks..... gun nuts to curtain fetishists to PETA. Now quit trying to get all up in my grill with the serious crap!
Sheeeeesh!
(Toad Johnson is right!)
-
"Isolationist ' in the way finland, canada, mexico are Isolationist, the US could still go to the UN and vote on sanctions. The US could save multi-billions on defense.
why does the US still have 100,000 troops in germany, don't the germans feel "occupied", or do they like/need all the money being poured into their country?
-
Originally posted by Finrod
This idea is called "Isolationism", attractive as it may seem, it doesn't work.
No... the idea is called "containment" and it just might work. ;)
-
Guys, we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. I just think we'd be pwning ourselves in the long run.I just don't think we can or should go back to the 19th century attitudes. BTW, you gents from across the pond, this is a very active discusion in the US right now.
Sorry MT, everyone go back to discussing the black curtain metaphor.
-
Originally posted by Finrod
If we go to an Isolationist stance the world will pass us by. The world has become a global marketplace, something we helped to happen BTW. Withdrawing now would leave us militarily, and economically at a disadvantage. If the rest of the world flips us the bird economically we will flounder about in our closed system with no trade in and no trade out. I don't know about you, but I like my current standard of living.
My standard of living (and possibly yours, if you are middle class or lower) is falling due to globalization. We've lost probably millions of blue collar jobs overseas, and now we are losing white collar jobs too.
EDIT: My apologies for continuing the hijack. Back to the black curtain!