Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: g00b on February 28, 2005, 05:24:53 AM
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After many great fights with Levi tonight I went back and watched some films. I don't know how he does it, but here's a clip of one of his reversals, which always makes people scream "impossible!".
I'm the MKV the camera is "fixed" on. 1 meg .wmv movie
http://www.easyracers.com/temp/Movie_0004.wmv
Here's a .ahf copy of the fight with him.
http://www.easyracers.com/temp/film60_1424.zip
Notice how the plane almost backflips on the 1st hard reversal, and how he accomplishes a near 180 in less than 2 seconds. On top of it all he lines me up and hammers me on a snapshot immediately after. I've turned the trails on and watched it over and over and I still don't know how he does it. You'll notice in the .ahf I have flaps out and typically am flying a bit faster. Levi's manuevering seems to be around 120-150mph with no flaps. And just look at how many people blow their shots try to track such a low, slow, wildly manuevering target.
Any thoughts on the abilites of a real Spit MKV to handle like that? Looks more like something an Extra or Cap would pull at an airshow rather than a WWII fighter (even a spitty).
Is this a realistic simulation of what the MKV could do, or someone simply pushing the "game" envelope beyond what should be possible?
g00b
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Yea, nothing outrageous there. I can't speak in terms of "real life" airplanes handling... but he was basically going slower than you were, and got around his initial turn faster. He used your speed against you.
It should be possible to watch the film from his perspective (been a while since I played with the film viewer).. look at it and then see if you still think it is impossible.
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Blimey thats good. Hope I never get into a dogfight with him!
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gosh, wish i had filmed some of my more spectactular deaths vs levi, cuz in every single one it appears the victim(me) ends up scratchin his head wondering what happened
even when i had him at the top of a stall at 300 yards i couldnt get a 30mm on him before havin my tail fall out. can never catch a friggin break :-P
i wonder who would win in a 1v1 - dmf or drex.. :cool:
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I know it'll upset some people, but imo Levi sucks.
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Originally posted by moot
I know it'll upset some people, but imo Levi sucks.
I won't sleep tonight , knowing that you feel that way
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I fought levi once c202 vs c202. I zoomed down from above him, he avoided my attack. He went agressive and we spiraled up in a zoom climb. Even though I had much more E than him to start with and I was 100% sure he'd go down first to my amazement my airspeed droped to zero while he climbed at least a hundred feet above me. The energy state reversed totally in one dive where he was defensive.
I had to quit the fight and watch the film because I was 100% sure he was a cheater. Too bad I no longer have the film, it was maybe 3 years ago.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I fought levi once c202 vs c202. I zoomed down from above him, he avoided my attack. He went agressive and we spiraled up in a zoom climb. Even though I had much more E than him to start with and I was 100% sure he'd go down first to my amazement my airspeed droped to zero while he climbed at least a hundred feet above me. The energy state reversed totally in one dive where he was defensive.
I had to quit the fight and watch the film because I was 100% sure he was a cheater. Too bad I no longer have the film, it was maybe 3 years ago.
he's not a cheater everyone knows you can't cheat in this game.
he's really quite good at cartoon aerial warfare, he displays all of the classical signs of a mis-spent adolescence.
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What bothers me more than that, and I don't see Leviathan doing it, is the trick with Spitfires and Seafires where they change directions by 180 degrees plus and accelerate to over 360MPH and chase down a plane that was going over 360MPH in the opposite direction. And I'm talking about actually seeing the plane in question changing direction well over 1.5K or so behind you. I'm also talking about this happening in a 2K altitude window. From a direct head on merge. The time span was less than 20 seconds, and the Spitfire went from a head on merge, to almost 2K or so behind, turned 180 degrees in less than 1.5K vertical, and caught me when I was showing 360MPH + indicated and did not turn at all (I intended to extend and climb). I suppose you can chalk it up to "lag" :rolleyes: , and say he actually turned in front of me but the 'net delay made it "look" like he turned behind me.
I can see a legit move that wins the fight most any time I see a fight with Leviathan, and he has friends that fly with him so he doesn't seem to have to worry much about his six. He flies well, and has the whole fight planned before he ever merges. His plans rarely go very wrong.
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Nothing spectacular there.. you were coming up behind him fast, and stayed full throttle and took his bait. Had you chopped throttle and slowed down around d800-1k, you'd have been able to rip him apart when he went vertical. Basically, it's ill-advised to come up behind a good stick only 20mph or so faster if you can't saddle up or get a solid shot.
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nothing special about that, some of the moves i've seen him do, or he's don on me are way harder to understnad, especially in 1V1 merges.
seems to me like you had him cold meat but augered :p
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I looked at the movie and then the AH film, it seems he did a lateral skid as part of his turn, but I did not see anything extraordinary from the standpoint of it being a typical Spitfire type maneuver. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I fought levi once c202 vs c202. I zoomed down from above him, he avoided my attack. He went agressive and we spiraled up in a zoom climb. Even though I had much more E than him to start with and I was 100% sure he'd go down first to my amazement my airspeed droped to zero while he climbed at least a hundred feet above me. The energy state reversed totally in one dive where he was defensive.
I had to quit the fight and watch the film because I was 100% sure he was a cheater. Too bad I no longer have the film, it was maybe 3 years ago.
Absolutely positively garbage.....
Levi's forgotten more acm than most ever learn.
Way back when I spent a fair amount of time "dueling" (more like getting the snot beat out of me) with Levi (then DMF). I'd win one (even two) and lose 30. When I got "in the zone" with him and could hang past the 1st 20 seconds or so it evolved...or devolved...into an almost tumbling spinning 120mph phoneboth fight...I can remember being "locked" cockpit to cockpit feeling like we were spinning around each other....
Basically he's the best pure angles fighter I've ever seen, he can put that bird at the absolute minimum speed required to maintain a 3D attack profile and keep it there.
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Basically he's the best pure angles fighter I've ever seen, he can put that bird at the absolute minimum speed required to maintain a 3D attack profile and keep it there.
BINGO !!!
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Originally posted by humble
Basically he's the best pure angles fighter I've ever seen, he can put that bird at the absolute minimum speed required to maintain a 3D attack profile and keep it there.
..add to that some pretty damn good SA. Fighting him is a treat that I don't get near enough of.
asw
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Some laggy stuff on that film also.
Shows Levi going from 60ish to 200+ and back to 60 in less than a second, happens at least twice.
Would assume the lag is on your end?
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Did I say that the film proved him as a cheater? No. I just couldn't believe the way he could outzoom me right after I droped maybe 1000ft on him in a similar plane.
Your description fits our fight perfectly btw. We were spiralling up in a zoomclimb looking at eachothers virtual cockpits in the direct up view. Only it ended very differently from what I thought.
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Nobody has really answered my question. Which was "should the MKV be capable of manuevers like that?"
Obviously, Levi kicks ass, he's not a cheater. He's just pushing the FM to the ragged edge and beyond.
Could a real MKV swap ends like that at 150mph or less?
The diagram here shows maximum cornering of about 35 dps. This equates to just over 5 seconds for a 180 degree turn. Levi is undeniably doing much better than that.
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_011a_6.jpg)
g00b
P.S. My connect is typically very solid.
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All he's doing is managing his speed and angles a little better, no mystery to it.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Did I say that the film proved him as a cheater? No. I just couldn't believe the way he could outzoom me right after I droped maybe 1000ft on him in a similar plane.
Your description fits our fight perfectly btw. We were spiralling up in a zoomclimb looking at eachothers virtual cockpits in the direct up view. Only it ended very differently from what I thought.
Whoops....
My bad....misread what you wrote...my apologies.
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Originally posted by storch
he's not a cheater everyone knows you can't cheat in this game.
do not let your faith blind you by ASSUMING stupidity...
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He had folks wondering the same thing, and some thinking he 'cheated' back in AW when he'd whip everyone in the AW P38J first in RR and then in FR.
Nothing new here, just more evidence he know's what he's doing. If you get the chance sometime, wing with Lev. It's an eye opener.
Dan/Slack
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Goob...
Levi never ever never ever fights flat...he's always going up or down. Also if he's turning and going left his rudder is going right:)...in effect the plane is rotating tumbling and stalling thru turns...at the very edge it seems like your spinning but your still "flying"....every once in awhile I'll get there...but levi lives there it seems. The planes nose will "fall" thru a turn much faster than the plane flys a circle....
Thats what your "seeing"...the plane isnt flying a "circle"...its doing something else....
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HAX!
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Originally posted by SLO
do not let your faith blind you by ASSUMING stupidity...
gee don't be so cryptic spit it out. I say the game can't be cheated. I also say that Levi is not a cheater and neither is anyone else.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
All he's doing is managing his speed and angles a little better, no mystery to it.
yes there is mystery or we'd all fly like him
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Who's this Levi fellow you speak of?
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Originally posted by g00b
Nobody has really answered my question. Which was "should the MKV be capable of manuevers like that?"
Obviously, Levi kicks ass, he's not a cheater. He's just pushing the FM to the ragged edge and beyond.
Could a real MKV swap ends like that at 150mph or less?
The diagram here shows maximum cornering of about 35 dps. This equates to just over 5 seconds for a 180 degree turn. Levi is undeniably doing much better than that.
g00b
P.S. My connect is typically very solid.
I was watching film 3 times, and I couldn't see anything "unusual".
After long rolling scissors, he just stalled (well, more of controlled stall) his spit at about 60mph at the top of scissors. Full aileron and rudder, good throttle control and nose went around pretty quickly.
To an extent, all planes can do that, more or less, spit 5 being particulary (and especially Leviathn) good at that.
It's very similar to what people here mistakenly call hammerhead, basically you almost stall on the top and reverse on the spot.
It can be tricky to do it because you have to reverse before complete loss of control occurs (often at speeds of about 50-60mph).
Good pilots like Levi can do that several times in succession in single fight. Commonly seen in DA, not as often in MA.
PS. WTG to those three cherry pickers who were buzzing around Levi and you. What would MA be without them :D
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Who's this Levi fellow you speak of?
Isn't he member of the same club as you?
Knitting Ladies or somethin' is called, I think...
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the Borg Kollektiv
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In every game there is someone that just picks it up really quick, and has a great eye for the skills it takes to be a good player. Don't forget, he's been playing sims for a while and from what I've heard he's been good for a quite a while as well. I remember back in the days of HalfLife Team Fortress Classic... There was a guy that used to drive me nuts. Would be like 123/2 with a sniper rifle. The man could strafe, jump, run, and fire at the same time and never seem to miss. SA was unreal. He wasn't a cheater, he just could anticipate well and had a great feel for the game.
Same goes here. One night I remember the 4Wing (name of my old squad, alot of the guys are in WoT now) just thumped a base in knightland. We weren't trying to take it, just annoy whoever was there. We leveled it, knocked all the fighters down and capped it till we were low on gas. I think I was in a tiffy. Levi was way outnumbered and grabbed an La7, I had never seen him fly one, but he did it to catch up with us. I saw it lift, thought it was a new guy because... well duh, its an la7 :lol
I turned to fight it, I think it took one turn.... I entered the turn with no damage and when I came out I don't think I had two parts that worked. I believe he even shot the pieces as they fell off.
Point is, it isn't the plane, he just can anticipate what you are doing and is great at countering it. I've seen him land 10+ in a yak just trying it out.
I did wing with him one night. He was a rook and I made him my wingman just to see how he flew. He went away from the horde and engaged a dozen or so cons by himself at their base. I followed him, but by the time I got there he had half of them dead. Since it was still 6 on 1, and the others reupping to try again, I jumped in and tried to help. I got 1 assist and 2 kills. I'd say he was engaged by 15 planes total... there were 3 left in the air when he went down, and I followed shortly after.
Best thing was, there wasn't a word about it on ch.200... he just reupped and went back at it. He schooled them, he knew it and that was all that mattered. Good pilot he is. :aok
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Part of the problem is that there have always been "edge conditions" in the flight model in CK, WB, AH, and now AH2, where you can basically trigger between the flight modes. If you are observant, you can find where those edges are and ride back and forth over them, resulting in occasionally obscene flight behavior.
For some reason I can't even remember anymore, I spent a couple of hours right after AH2 was released finding several of the edges or boundaries in the ground handling model. These are the same conditions and boundary issues that used to cause planes to slide off the back of the carrier when you released brakes, etc. As an example, there is a small but measurable throttle band where you can be at idle or near idle, and your friction drag on the ground is increased. Bump the throttle up even a bit, and that extra drag and ground stability vanishes instantly. It's nearly impossible to find this edge however unless you turn the wind up pretty high. To see the edge for yourself, turn the wind up to 80 knots or more, select a zeek, and fly. Turn the engine on with the throttle in idle. Then slowly bump up the throttle bit by bit. At some point, your plane will rocket backwards in a straight line. If you do it right, you can even bound over the terrain shedding parts until nothing but the fuselage is left, and you'll still be screaming along backwards with the wind pushing you. Lower the throttle back to idle, and you'll eventually stop. Push the throttle back up, and you'll rocket backwards again.
In the air, there are some huge holes as well. I don't know if it's still a problem, but in early AH2 if you took a spit5 up and made a gradual spin entry, you could start and stop the spin "normally" just like it's supposed to work. But if you entered the spin with an abrupt full aft stick motion, the plane would stop nearly all horizontal motion and fall straight down with no hope of recovery. I spent 2 days fiddling with this, determining various entry conditions, but I finally gave up because there seemed to be no practical application to just falling out of the sky :) I just learned that in a spit, don't pull the stick back that quickly or you'll enter this weird hole in the flight model where you fall straight down in a sideways attitude.
The other normal flight, spin entry, spin, and spin exit modes can occasionally be used in fights however. Back in AH, it was possible to get the P-47 into spin mode and fly it out of the spin without actually triggering the code back to normal flight. On one occasion, I triggered a P-47 spin and fought my way out of the spin using traditional anti-spin controls but didn't push and hold the stick full forward which was the recovery method HT required to exit spin mode. That meant that for a while I was flying around at around 250 knots with the plane constantly trying to spin on me. The nose was all over the place, and I could literally turn on a dime at 250 knots because the spin code was in effect and it wanted to make me spin around. Fast footwork on the rudders and quick reactions allowed me to keep the plane right on the edge between a left and right hand spin, so I flew around for quite a while like that. The P-47 was well known for having a tough spin at the time (drex and I won our first con dueling tourny fight that way when both of our opponents spun their p-47s at the merge and spun 10,000 ft without recovering) and that's because the plane would seem to be recovering as you flew out of the spin, but because you didn't hold full fwd stick, the code path never switched from "spin" to "flight" or whatever it is HT calls it, and most players couldn't figure it out and would eventually auger. Knowing the actual elevator position was the key, but how many people recover from a spin while looking backwards at the tail?
So if you know those boundaries and the rules and conditions required to flip from mode to mode, you can really do some amazing things with the planes and AH flight model. Most of them are gimmicky and not very useful, but I know that it's been possible to ride the edge of the spin entry in many planes ever since early WB versions to make very quick turns. Just enter a spin in the direction of spin you desire, and exit it at the right time to fly out heading in the right direction. Mili's old p-38 flip turn trick was nothing more than riding the spin entry. The F-4U could do the same thing if you were careful with the power setting, as "byngtn" (hatch) taught me one evening.
For what it's worth, you can make a real life T-37 do the same thing so it's not even unrealistic. When I was flying the T-37 at Sheppard AFB, I was able to turn the tables several times during instructor continuity training formation rides by causing the plane to *almost* enter a spin, letting it develop just enough to cause the plane to rotate, then recovering at the exact right time with the plane heading in the opposite direction. If done at the right time in a rolling scissors, the plane would rotate right around to the other plane's 6. In the F15E we can do a maneuver that is actually pretty similiar to Mili's old P-38 flip turn, making the plane just rotate in mid-air like a controlled spin entry. It takes intimate knowledge of the aerodynamic capabilities of the plane, just like knowing the details of the AH flight model can let a dedicated player use those flight model features to outfly an opponent. Do it right and it can save your butt. Do it wrong and you can auger or fly right in front of the bandit.
It probably sounds like I'm bagging on HT's flight model, but really I'm not. Real life is full of boundary conditions. In real life, somewhere between spinning and not spinning, a plane is in a "spin entry". But at some point the plane is definately in a spin and at some point it's definately recovered. So knowing how to enter and exit precisely isn't gaming the system, it's just becoming a better flier, the same both in real life and in the game. I'm not saying that Levi is doing this because I don't know, but I know that most really good players find and exploit some of these boundaries even if they don't know that it is what they're doing. It's not cheating, it's "max performing" their aircraft, or in this case the flight model HT has given us to play with. It's a testament to HT and Pyro's skill that most players never know about these boundaries because the transitions are very smooth and invisible unless either you're trained to recognize them or just very observant.
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Somebody has to say it, Levi is a CHEATER!!!
There its said.
I notice no one ever calls me a cheater.
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So is it realistic? Could a real MKV perform like that?
g00b
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Dunno. Buy one and see :) I'm pretty sure that unless I broke it, doing a snap-roll or abrupt spin entry wouldn't make it fall sideways, straight into the ground, but I could be wrong there too.
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Watch the film from a top-down view, if it is possible. I'd wager you'll see Lev makes at most a 180 degree turn at any given time... you are doing the rest of the turn for him by turning into him.
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Originally posted by Eagler
yes there is mystery or we'd all fly like him
Nope, just takes practice practice practice:D
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Good observation eagl. :)
As for Levi, what Humble said and Slapshot BINGO !!!'d is pretty much it.
I'm not one to toot my own horn, but I can also do that. I tend not to get myself in those situations much of the time, so it works out to be quite as efficient in a pack of cons. I hate to admit this, but snapshots work too well and I tend to despise them :D. If I'm 1v1, my weakness will be playing with my food. I can maneuver into a favorable position and saddle up for a nice clean six kill. This is often my bane, cause when I have a bad gunnery day and I'm flying the P40, many other fighters simply wobble and out accelerate me before I can put bullets on'em!
Situational awareness, E judging, knowing your own status/position/E, knowing the best possible maneuver to maximize your advantage and minimize his opportunities, and consistently melding all of these will get you to his six or set you up for that jaw dropping snapshot nine times out of ten. You know where your enemy(s) are, where they will be, and how to give them the worst possible angles, while at the same time, working yourself into a favorable position.
Goob, in that film he executed the best possible maneuver in that mini-scissors to give him a quick snapshot. The Hispanos are snapshot factories, and he hit you passing across his gunsight horizontally. The way the Spit's hispanos are oriented (wings), that gives him the equivalent of an extended snapshot if you were passing verticaly through the gunsight. Even before that snap, yanking vertical in ANY close engagement is keen. In ANY scissors, up is the way to go. Even if you both stall out in another situation, if you're on top and you're both stalling, you'll stay on top after you both recover.
When ya watch that film, or any film including levi, slow it down a TON. When you get to the confusing part, get inside his cockpit and look around. See what he is seeing and figure out why he did what he did. Most, if not all, of his maneuvers are predicting where you (his opponent) will be in 2, 3, or even 5 seconds time, and blindsiding you in a snapshot before you even get there :D.
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Originally posted by g00b
So is it realistic? Could a real MKV perform like that?
g00b
We'll never know because no-one would have been silly enough to try to fly them like that even if they were capable.
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Just remember this simulation isn't about realism. It's a game and like in all games you have those who excell and those who find out later how to excell. I tried the same move and blacked out every time. So, dunno how he does it I just know I can't. :confused:
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rudder :)
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Originally posted by storch
gee don't be so cryptic spit it out. I say the game can't be cheated. I also say that Levi is not a cheater and neither is anyone else.
No personal attack here - honest. But there is NO game on the net made that cannot be hacked nor any game that ISNT being hacked. I am a C++, J+, VB programmer and network administrator... to say a game cannot is is not being hacked by someone, somewhere is pure fantasy.
BTW I dont believe levi is hacking.... just one helluva turn... possibly a modeling error exploited
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"there is no spoon" :P
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Yeah I just watched the film....
LOL don't think there were many shots taken in WWII like the first pass he hit you with: 90 mph, inverted, tight turn, 20yds off the water and maybe d30 from the enemy plane. For no other reason than if it were in real life, you'd spend most of your time trying to ignore the stink in your cockpit because you would've crapped your pants at least ten times. :D
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Who's this Levi fellow you speak of?
He is the "core" of QUAH !!!!
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Originally posted by storch
gee don't be so cryptic spit it out. I say the game can't be cheated. I also say that Levi is not a cheater and neither is anyone else.
Nothing cryptic about it, since any discussion about cheaters is not welcomed on Dale's BBs, and out of great respect for Skuzzy I choose my words carefully...
But don't assume my young Jedi, there is and always will be that one person...
And no in my eyes Levi is NOT a etc. etc...but a person who spent alot of time in the DA perfecting his moves, same as Wldthing...
But being good at TnB is just a oh so small part of it, now getting 20 guys to do it all at the same time receives my respect, and up to now not many have shown thoose kinds of qualities.
Too many out there to lift only one over everyone else...
Thats my perception...whats yours?
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Originally posted by eagl
So if you know those boundaries and the rules and conditions required to flip from mode to mode, you can really do some amazing things with the planes and AH flight model. Most of them are gimmicky and not very useful, but I know that it's been possible to ride the edge of the spin entry in many planes ever since early WB versions to make very quick turns. Just enter a spin in the direction of spin you desire, and exit it at the right time to fly out heading in the right direction. Mili's old p-38 flip turn trick was nothing more than riding the spin entry. The F-4U could do the same thing if you were careful with the power setting, as "byngtn" (hatch) taught me one evening.
For what it's worth, you can make a real life T-37 do the same thing so it's not even unrealistic. When I was flying the T-37 at Sheppard AFB, I was able to turn the tables several times during instructor continuity training formation rides by causing the plane to *almost* enter a spin, letting it develop just enough to cause the plane to rotate, then recovering at the exact right time with the plane heading in the opposite direction. If done at the right time in a rolling scissors, the plane would rotate right around to the other plane's 6. In the F15E we can do a maneuver that is actually pretty similiar to Mili's old P-38 flip turn, making the plane just rotate in mid-air like a controlled spin entry. It takes intimate knowledge of the aerodynamic capabilities of the plane, just like knowing the details of the AH flight model can let a dedicated player use those flight model features to outfly an opponent. Do it right and it can save your butt. Do it wrong and you can auger or fly right in front of the bandit.
Excellent reply eagl.
Those of you who are more than a little familiar with the AH2 P-38 and F4U know that you can ride both deep into a spin, getting some remarkable rotation, and then abruptly stop the rotation. You have to be careful not to ride in too deep, or over-correct coming out. So, it takes good feel for it and no small amount of practice. I had Fubar616 drop his spitV on my six one evening in the TA. He was quite surprised at how slow you can maneuver the F4U, riding spin entry and using ragged edge, full flap, side slips to spoil shots and give the worst possible angles. I have been able to get rotations in excess of 90 degrees at 60 mph with the F4U-1 and not lose it. I'm sure it looks like some cheat when you see a wing dip and it pivots almost in place. You need to practice this if you are maneuvering at low speeds and low altitudes. There's not much room for error on the deck. As for the P-38, it's basically the same, only a tad slower and easier due to the relative lack of torque. G00b, try this and you'll see how fast you can rotate the nose (remember that rudder is the key). Also, rudder can greatly increase roll rate at the cost of speed and usually with considerable yaw (not always a bad thing if you know how to use it). Try flying in the TA using the external view to observe the aircraft's motion. Then jump back inside and practice some more.
As to strange things in the FM; I've posted a film of my flying the Ki-84 off a CV, and the carrier moves out ahead of the plane!! Nose high, flaps out, hanging on the prop, using rudder to keep from dropping off on a wing. After about 10 seconds, you need to ease off the backpressure, or you will backslide and nosewhip it into the sea. But for those precious seconds, it was amazing.
That strange flat, non-rotating stall is certainly an FM problem. I think the worst case aircraft for this is the Mosquito.
G00b, that little maneuver of Leviathn's is terrific. I've seen him do quite a lot over the past three years. My nephew was playing a few months back and he goes roaring in after a Seafire. Lev does his little break, climbing reverse and whacks him. I had him running film. I may still have it.
Notice that a whole bunch of guys came blasting thru, and all missed the slow Spitfire. I think Leviathn had his shields up....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by moose
i wonder who would win in a 1v1 - dmf or drex.. :cool:
NathBDP
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Must have missed that one...
My vote would go to Lev, by a landslide.
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I mentioned flying and maneuvering the F4U-1 at extrememly low speeds. I filmed about 12 minutes of low speed maneuvering, including full side-slip flybys, flying well into a spin and stopping rotation. Using rudder to rotate the aircraft relative to direction of travel and flying at speeds as low as 30 mph. Using torque to roll the aircraft out of a severe nose-high stall. There's all sorts of things you can do with the "Ensign Eliminator" that will confound the guy you're fighting.
Unfortunately, AH films do not show rudder deflection. This is a 2 meg download, zipped. I strongly suggest watching the film from the chase view initially to get the best aspect.
Get it here (http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film49_1058.zip)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Mime
NathBDP
add citabria into that mix and you'd have one awesome furball
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Well I did some post-stall flight testing in a Citabria today :D I could keep it nose high with the stick in my lap and semi-controllable by stomping on the rudder well into the stall. But I was unable to get much yaw out of it, it really just wants to drop a wing and roll over, not turn on a dime. I also think that the Citabria has much better low speed handling than your average WWII fighter. Kinda apples to oranges though. I wonder if AH2 models aileron reveral at stall speeds (I don't think so), that might be part of what's missing in the equation.
Anywho, an informative and lively discussion with remarkably little trolling.
g00b
P.S. Levi Hax! :lol
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I don't think that AH models any kind of control reversal at any speed.
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Hey goob,
Could it be that the good slow flight characteristics are detrimental to puilling those kind of manuvers.
Meaning if it has good stall characteristics, unlike the corsair, then it is harder to get it to break and swing the way the planes with poor slow flight chasracteristics do.
Then if the plane has good recovery characteristics it is easier to recover from such a move and whip it around.
BTW Goob thanks for making it a WMF.
Lev you SOB, true poetry in motion. Just plain beautiful.
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What seems to happen in these games is what has already been described further up. ^ The game flight model perhaps has flaws which people learn to exploit. In WB, 190s used to be able to dive to cherrypick, and reach speeds well above what would have been VNE for that plane, without structural damage. Another dubious quirk was planes doing very hard turns with the greatest of ease - a scenario which failed to take account of how much force the pilot would have been needed to apply to the stick to make those turns, and the G forces he would have to endure as a result. In RL, a pilot would get very tired very quickly doing the stuff that goes on in these games.
Three other very grey areas in AH1 were the helicopter defence move, the ability to keep full control of the plane while blacked out (and maintain a hard turn) and the 800yd spray shots. These were completely changed for AH2 in the name of progress, and rightly so. But here as in WB all those years ago, there would be protest at the changes, account cancellations etc. The only reason I can think of was that people had learned to exploit these tricks, and their game fell apart when said tricks were no longer available.
For all these reasons, I never took the FM of these games that seriously. I'm not interested in gamey tricks; I'm interested in how it would have been in RL.
I do remember running into Urchin & Leviathn, soon after AH2 had been deployed. There was a 2v2 going on, and as I got there it became 3v2. Urchin was in a P47 and Levi was in a Spit - I assume it was a V. I bounced Urchin in my F4U, but he evaded at the last second, then realigned and landed pings on me at 600yd+. In AH1, I'd have been dead because (IMO) dispersion wasn't modelled accurately in AH1. But I survived, and one of the others got Urchin. That left Levi, who was just making one of his hard turns to acquire one of my friends. Unfortunately for Levi, that turn gave me a nice planform view of his Spit, and I blasted him. I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but for the fact that my text buffer was awash with white text. "Your buddy did all the work for you"; "If he hadn't been there, you'd have been dead"; "You screwed up on that 2nd pass"; "If your aunt had had balls, she'd have been your uncle" etc. etc. LOL. For the life of me, I can't remember who the other two guys were. We all went our separate ways after that.
What's that instruction written on fireworks? Light blue touchpaper, and retire immediately! I'd better do just that! :D:p
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Beetle go away. No one likes your limey ***.
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While I'm flattered that Beetle so vividly recalls his one single fight with me in years of Aces High, I recollect that fight a bit differently than he does. I'm also fairly certain that any private messages from me would not have contained any of the remarks listed by Beetle unless done tongue-in-cheek with some expectation of a sense of humor at the other end.
:aok
-- Todd/Leviathn
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:p Morpheus! Give my warmest wishes to Streetstang! :lol
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
While I'm flattered that Beetle so vividly recalls his one single fight with me in years of Aces High, I recollect that fight a bit differently than he does. I'm also fairly certain that any private messages from me would not have contained any of the remarks listed by Beetle unless done tongue-in-cheek with some expectation of a sense of humor at the other end.
LOL Levi! I'm flattered that you remember it at all! I made up some of the comments - I think that is obvious - as I couldn't remember exactly what you said. However, you did say the first one, or words to that effect. ;)
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You do this all of the time Beetle. You make some bullchit turn of events up up to try and fit into a subject that has absoutly nothing to do with you what so ever, all the while looking like the same belligerant fool you've always been.
It almost hurts to see you make such a fool out of yourself.
But keep it up.:aok
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Beatle's problem is that noone thinks he is as great as he thinks he is.
It drives him crazy.
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(http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~pennband/Horse_Ass10.JPG)
See what you want to see in it.
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I watched the film and I dont think you could slide a plane into second base like that in real life, but this not real life. I dont take anything away from Levi tho, I know he's an incredible stick! I wish planes did have reverse tho, you could shove it into reverse at 300 and get crazy reversals:cool:
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Originally posted by g00b
So is it realistic? Could a real MKV perform like that?
g00b
It doesn't really matter if a real MkV could perform that way... noone would try. In AH, the MkV is one of the best planes. In the actual war, the MkV was outclassed nearly the entire time it was in service. It wasn't until the IX's came in to widespread use that Spits were a formidable opponent for 109's & FW's. The vast majority of dogfights didn't last long enough to try to move an MkV like that, and odds are if someone did try, he'd get shot to hell by his original attacker's wingman. The LW loved their "boxing" ;)
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Maybe I am missing somehting,
the MkV was outclassed nearly the entire time it was in service.
1) Wetrat what are you basing your info on? Do you have some examples or evidence or places for reference?
2) In what form of fighting? I.e. Boom and Zoom, Turn Fighting?
The vast majority of dogfights didn't last long enough to try to move an MkV like that,
Levs move seems to be about 5 seconds. Are you trying to say dogfights didn't last longer than 5 seconds.
As for Levs move, it looks to me like inertia in motion, much like a lumchovok or the like.
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Our MkV's boost puts it in the roughly the same class as the MkIX (in AH). This change happened in the AH1 > AH2 conversion. I don't think a majority of MkV's had this extra boost. Outside of the power output department, I am clueless with the spit. So don't take my word for it :)
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Ahhh the misconception of knowledge and implementing of ACM and SA. You can think it, talk about it and swear by it all you want, unless you actually learn to apply it means nothing.
I’m sure this sermon has run it’s course, but here goes it anyway, I’m bored.
IMO,…
One thing you have to understand about Lev, AH is NOT his first BBQ. Long before AH came along he's been handing people their ars, consistently, including AW. He’s still flown AW more then he’s flown AH, if that bench marks anything.
There is no mystery to his flying ability. He's in tune with things that make it all work as one. Constant SA and years of learning which ACM to use against which situation until it's second nature, on top place knowing all limits of the AC you fly, and never cross them.
“Legendary Gunfighters”, which is what Lev is, are always scrutinized, studied and challenged. There's always someone who wants that thrown, it's an intense ego thing for some. People who constantly challenge and lose will call him a cheater, a sucky pilot, "he's not all that good" excuse after excuse as to why they lost. Every excuse, expect the right two combined.
1) Lev has been around in flight sims a long time, he's no newbie who games the game, and he chooses one of the best planes to do it in. (Gee, what a concept) He's someone you want to learn from. he knows his plane well.
2) Any fight you lose you lose at you're own fault, for allowing the enema a clean shot. Their selection of ACM for the situation was wrong, and most likely their choice of plane to fly doesn’t fit their piloting style or the ACM needed to over come situation
IMO the difference also comes between a gamer and a simmer. Who’s being the gamer and who’s being the simmer? My bets are on Lev being the simmer.
There's nothing mysterious about Lev's reversals, he's just damn good at them in a plane that will allow them to happen, throw in second nature ACM and you’re there.
Next to the P-51, the Spit ( I assume Lev is still flying the spit) are one of the best planes to use in a dogfight. The ego thing where as "I refuse to fly a spit or 51" is over rated. They are the best planes. Why someone would call fowl when they take a sub standard dogfighting plane and use it in a knife fight with the superior dogfighting plane, then wonder why they lost, is totally beyond me. Some planes were not made for dogfighting, yet you have people trying to be super natural *god like* and make it happen *against odds. Then mystified when a plane that IS designed for dogfighting hands them their ars. The concept that “I’m going to turn my FW into a Spit killing machine,…” is a fallacy, and a pipe dream. But some feel it will make them god like if they do, which is true, but you have a long climb to make that happen. Choose your fights wisely.
Why on earth would someone flying a eg…FW consciously choose a fight with a Spit, P-51, P-38? He's hoping the pilot sucks, because the plane sure doesn’t..
The odds are with Lev and he uses them. Study what he does, as you are here, he’s not a god, he’s just damn good.
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Lol... is it possible to condense that novelette into.... "It is the plane, not the pilot"?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Lol... is it possible to condense that novelette into.... "It is the plane, not the pilot"?
I'm always long winded, but,.. No, because "It is the plane, not the pilot" is incorrect.
If it's just the plane then you're only at 50% of the equation.
The plane doesn't act on its own, it only provides certain possibilites. It takes the pilot to know what they are, when to use them, and how to make the plane perform them.
It's the combination of plane and pilot, and why. And when they both fit you have people like Lev, and others, at 100% of what is possible.
Pilots who live by the "it's the plane" *or* "it's the pilot" mentality, IMO, are missing the point. IMO, plane and pilot should be like hand and glove.
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I've been watching this thread and it amazes me that no one's clued in that Levi is a shades account for Drex.
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By the way Drex sucks
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It's funny how some of the vets in this game find this unusual, whilst the other ramble in amazement..