Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Avor on March 01, 2005, 01:53:37 AM
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In this game as a fighter, or in a real life cessna when you press a controll the plane with tend to bounce back. This is used on low preformance airplains as a result of a design meant to be stable in flight
In a real fighter, when the plane is pointed in a direction it stays there, this means the plane is natualy less stable but a can be handled faster and wtih more precision.
For the life of me I just dont get why the fighters in this game fly like a 40 year old cessna(the one I piloted once)
So, Im I missing a setting in options or can somebody tell me how to deal with this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/Avor/WTF.gif)
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If I understand what you're saying, this is due to combat trim.. it always trims so that you can fly straight and level.
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turn off combat trim and trim it manually..Combat trim= computerized auto-trim for the lazy-many, and the non-pilot types...
Most use combat trim, get the airplane to speed and then turn it off.
Balsy
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Those gents are correct. Use the cntrl X keys to turn on/off combat trim.
DmdMax
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I think yer looking at it all wrong. A real fighter is inherently unstable. As in the case of an A4M Skyhawk which has no auto pilot, once you got to cruise alt got level you'd trim the plane to level and unless you encountered turbulence, etc the plane would pretty much fly itself. The second you moved the stick if you wished to get her level again you had to go through the same ritual of trimming her for that condition. If you got into a dogfight you did not continioully trim the plane for every single angle you were in or where you nose was pointed. In fact most pilots trimmed a lil nose (read very small amount here) down when they went feet dry. The reason is they had to hold a lil stick and if they needed to unload it was automatic.
Nuther tidbit....there was an airline out there that flew new planes and they had a tendency to stall them on final. Reason being the pilot kept trying to trim the planes nose while it was on autopilot. Everytime he trimmed the autopilot would retrim until he fianlly ran it out of trim. When he disconnected the autopilot the nose would pitch and whomp! They fixed that and no, it was not in the US and doesn't happen anymore :)
Ok that's just good reading. For this game, yes you can turn off auto combit trim. And yes, you can spend the whole flight trimming and retrimming yer plane. That can be fun and you can die alot. But hey! It's a game.
On the other hand, using auto combat trim wont hurt you and give you a chance to get used to learning about flying and fighting in the arena first.
As they say, "you ain't in Kansas anymore" and these planes ain't cessna's. Suggestion. Get used to whats happening around you. Then if you feel you just gotta trim, trim, trm all the time, go for it.
BTW, since they are prop jobs and just like cessna's in that sense. If you point the nose up they do eventually run outa steam. However, if you point the nose in any direction and let go of the stick (unload) it will pretty much stay there for a while. Isn't that what you asked about?
BTW, Im lazy. I not only use auto combat trim in most planes (some not) but when I point the nose up I hit the auto pilot angle button and sleep as she zooms when I peg my speed or alt I hit auto pilot level and go back to sleep.....well maybe not :)
It doesn't effect how many kills you get...honest!
Also, if I see an enemy guy trim, trim, trimming Ill prolly shoot him whiles he's getting his plane in trim :D
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Originally posted by wetrat
If I understand what you're saying, this is due to combat trim.. it always trims so that you can fly straight and level.
straight where you are pointing, not level. Combat trim has no relation at all with the effect described by Avor. This effect is present with combat trim or without it. In fact, combat trim would help to get what Avor draws as "real fighter".
Avor, I think you should more this issue to the "Gameplay Feedback and request" forum.
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Actually, Mando I have no idea why you think this is a gameplay issue. Sorry bro but this is why there is a help and training forum.
At worst our Avor may be flying the fighter like a cessna. 90% of all fighters need to be flown at a decent speed. If you fly it slow then it will wollow around like a cessna.
I think he needs to revisit just what he thinks a fighter can do compared to a cessna. If he'd like to do that we can help him in the TA.
Thanks
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Actually, Mando I have no idea why you think this is a gameplay issue.
Gameplay "Feedback and Requests", while it may be an issue. The other good forum would be aircraft and vehicles.
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As of now when I'm in a dog fight the plane flys like somebody is behind me grabbing or hitting the stick.
Im going to try and use the keyboard, maybe its my stick or something related to it.
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Originally posted by Avor
As of now when I'm in a dog fight the plane flys like somebody is behind me grabbing or hitting the stick.
Im going to try and use the keyboard, maybe its my stick or something related to it.
I cant even do that, what I can I do to get my plane to stay in the direction I point it.
I dont have controll of my plane, Im not flying it, I just move the stick and ask if it would like to go there.
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I only noticed the behavior you mentioned on rudder. And i guess there it is correct, might be overdone but correct.
-try to disable the stall limiter
-try higher speeds... set on autoclimb, go grab a cup of coffee and a sandwitch.
-try a fw190d9 without droptank
Then push a shallow dive and use combat speeds of 200 to 400mph indicated. Note that when you get to fast the controlls dont reakt good, this simulates that the forces needed to move em are stronger.
See if you have droptanks/bombs.. drop em before combat. Note that some aircraft can have multiple external equipment that hangs on the bottom and stabilizes the ac.
btw can check in hangar preflight if you have any externals.
Also some aircraft feel a bit wobbly with full fuel... with 75% or less they feel better.
hope this helps... if not i would like to hear your problem again with which aircraft/ loadout / speed you feel the problem.
I think auto combat trim has nothing to do with this. It trims for lvl flight at current speed, which is bad on some aircraft when they get slow since it pushes nose up into stall. On others its bad when fast because you cant pull enogh G's when the nose is trimmed down.
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That effect is particulary noticeable with 262. It should be renamed by "the bouncing-nose-fighter".
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try to disable the stall limiter
Does nothing
-try higher speeds... set on autoclimb, go grab a cup of coffee and a sandwitch.
So max speed isnt enough
-try a fw190d9 without droptank
Never take them anyways
which aircraft/ loadout / speed you feel the problem.
All the same, even in the bomber.
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Avor, simple fix. Tell me when you wanna meet me in the TA and let's fix it.
I hate to say it but so far you haven't really diagnosed anything. Have you been to the joystick window and confirmed the stick is working in the game? Have you calibrated in stick in the game? Are any of the stick functions reversed?
If a stick doesn't make any control surfaces move then it would seem that you haven't confirmed that it's operational in the game. Last night there was 500+ pilots in the MA. They all use different sticks and have no problems.
Say when and let's fix yours.
Almost forgot is Avor the call sign you use in the game?
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Avor, this effect is not related to your joy, nor any trim setting, neither any loadout. Is and has been present in AH planes always.
If you push your nose down and let the stick alone (free), your nose will bounce upwards (more or less noticeable depending on the plane), opposite if you pull the stick. The effect is also present with yaw movements. The effect is less and less noticeable the faster you go.
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Is there any way to turn it off or compensate for it other then diving from 5000+
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Originally posted by Avor
Is there any way to turn it off or compensate for it other then diving from 5000+
Avor,
if you are getting the nose bouncing effect, get with Ren or any Trainer and let them walk you thru how to set up your stick scaling
nose bouncing effect comes from the stick scaling you are using along with your dampening and dead band sliders
I would take Ren up on his offer
you be up and blasting bandits in no time!
if this is indeed the problem you are having
Ack-Ack had a good stick config and Drano if I recall right had a good one.
I use 100% across the top on all sliders with very little deadband and dampening, to most they would experience allot of nose bounce, I experience a little, but for most part I am use to my stick setup so I am light ahnded on my control input.
really, get with REn or a trainer or a longtime flyer and let them help you out in the TA it will not take long at all to fix, if thats the problem you have.
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In fact most pilots trimmed a lil nose (read very small amount here) down when they went feet dry. The reason is they had to hold a lil stick and if they needed to unload it was automatic.
Is basically how I normally set mine Ren, and is good adice in my view
that and I do not use Combat Trim, I trim for my best cruise speed / prefered fighting speed envelope for plane and leave it.
Then again, everyone of us have the "RIGHT or CORRECT way" of doing things lol only in our minds
:D
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The bounces described by Avor are not related to joy spikes nor joy calibration.
He points nose down, then free the stick (no signal in Y axis) and there it goes, a single nose up bounce.
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Originally posted by MANDO
The bounces described by Avor are not related to joy spikes nor joy calibration.
He points nose down, then free the stick (no signal in Y axis) and there it goes, a single nose up bounce.
no offense Mando,
but could it might be that you yourself have the same problem and think that is just the way the game is?
Seriously, if I push down on my stick and I am trimmed right, when I let go I do not get 1 nose bounce, 2 nose bounces or any.
if I do not have my stick set right, I have before and will see a nose bounce. to me this has to do with stick input / scaling and trim
as I mentioned, everyone of us is "RIGHT" but only in our on minds. so it would not hurt to get with an individual and try to fix the problem, if there is indeed one......but hey that is just how I am viewing this whole thread......no worries. It does not hurt anyone to offer a suggestion or opinion
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Aye, sounds like too much elevator trim to me. The only issue I've ever had is an occasional "bump" of the nose when I'm trying to line up for a shot, almost like turbulence. But its not like what has been described in this thread.
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Tequila, as far as I understand, the effect is "normal" but the level of the effect may be more of less exagerated depending on the plane.
When you pull your stick you gain AOA over the AOA needed to keep your current flight path, the flight path itself changes later and follows your nose direction. If you release suddenly the stick, the nose will try to align again with the current flight path (this is the nose down bounce). Similar effect for nose up "bounce". If you release the stick slowly, the flight path and the nose will be "almost" aligned and the bounce will be less noticeable.
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Originally posted by MANDO
Tequila, as far as I understand, the effect is "normal" but the level of the effect may be more of less exagerated depending on the plane.
Yes Sir, I can agree with this, especially the more or less exagerated part depending on plane, also there is a way to cut down the effect of this action by adjusting your stick settings to where some can just about do away with all of it for the most part
Originally posted by MANDO
When you pull your stick you gain AOA over the AOA needed to keep your current flight path, the flight path itself changes later and follows your nose direction. If you release suddenly the stick, the nose will try to align again with the current flight path (this is the nose down bounce). Similar effect for nose up "bounce". If you release the stick slowly, the flight path and the nose will be "almost" aligned and the bounce will be less noticeable.
I am not saying this is not true as well, I am in agreement, I am saying that scaling your stick and adjusting trim and dampening and dead band you can cancel out alot of this movement, maybe not every last little micro bounce , but enough to where it would not affect your flying
I understand the mechanics of flight and understand how one action of control input gets a return action, I am not disagreeing with you on any of these things Mando. however, I am disagreeing on that some of it can be overcomed and reduced by simply going to the stick configuration and setup and messing around with the sliders to see how they in turn affect any one players flying style.
This is why I noted that in every players mind they "think" they are right or have the right answer. I am not saying your way/idea/theory is wrong. I am not saying my idea/theory is right, and is why I mentioned it does not hurt to look at every suggestion . Who knows what one might learn or figure out.
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Tequila, if you gained AOA well over the needed to substain the current flight path, and then you release the stick suddenly (you put your hand away of the stick) so your nose tends to align again with your fight path, what kind of joy adjustments can you try to do to make your nose travel slower (no violent bounce is noticed) to converge with the current flight path?
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Originally posted by MANDO
Tequila, if you gained AOA well over the needed to substain the current flight path, and then you release the stick suddenly (you put your hand away of the stick) so your nose tends to align again with your fight path, what kind of joy adjustments can you try to do to make your nose travel slower (no violent bounce is noticed) to converge with the current flight path?
1st Mando, maybe what I consider violent nose bounce and what you consider violent nose bounce are 2 things completely different.
2nd I will quote myself:
I am saying that scaling your stick and adjusting trim and dampening and dead band you can cancel out alot of this movement, maybe not every last little micro bounce , but enough to where it would not affect your flying
maybe I should have not used the word "micro"
&
I understand the mechanics of flight and understand how one action of control input gets a return action, I am not disagreeing with you on any of these things Mando. however, I am disagreeing on that some of it can be overcomed and reduced
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As far as im conserned does it really matter? come fly your cessna against my p 51 and see how it really does.
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Avor this statement isn't completely true.
In a real fighter, when the plane is pointed in a direction it stays there, this means the plane is natualy less stable but a can be handled faster and wtih more precision.
I work the flight controls systems on the F-15. What you are describing is an aircraft with a perfect rig and pefect cg. This just isn't possible without some type of attitude hold system engaged. You will almost always have some type of movement whether it be in roll, pitch or yaw. That's why we have tolerances for each axis.
A typical checkout prior to doing advanced handling checks will check to see if atleast two of these areas are within tolerance. To check the roll axis they will first maintain a specific altitude, airspeed and check to ensure their wings don't have an excessive fuel imbalance. They will release the stick after placing the aircraft to roll wings level condition and ensuring the aircraft isn't pitching up. They will then start the clock. The airframe is only allowed to roll x amount of degrees per second. Anything outside of this tolerance means the airframe is out of rig. The airframe is allowed to roll some it just depends on whether it's within tolerance or not.
They can also check the rigging on the yaw axis. We call this a rudder friction checkout. So long as the roll axis passed they can proceed to this checkout. The will slowly walk the airfames AOA up. They will reference their check list to ensure they are within a specific set of parameters while doing this check. If the aircraft wants to dump the nose off left or right earlier than it's supposed to then obviously it failed. Just as with the roll axis though there is a tolerance.
The only way to almost guarantee a perfect attitude hold position is to use the attitude hold system itself. If the attitude hold system is engaged rate gyros will be what is used to keep the aircraft at a particular roll or pitch angle. There are limits to this system also (attitude hold can be engaged within x amount of degrees + or - x amount of degrees). The automatic flight controls system comes into play with this area though. It monitors the rate gyros for validity and for current aircraft attitude through the rate gyros. It will hold the aircraft in a particular attitude so long as certain parameters are met. You can temporarily disengage this system by moving the stick to a new attitude so long as you don't go out of the maximum parameters and the aircraft will hold at the last attitude position input.
I know with my stick setup I can point it in a general direction and it will stay like that for awhile. I'll have to go and check it out again sometime. I rarely use it because auto level or auto angle is easier and guaranteed. I'll try to see if I maintain a specific altitude and specific airspeed if I can remove auto level and see if it stays flying at that attitude. The only thing that should keep it from staying straight and level in AH is your stick calibration, steady airspeed and proper cg. As long as your our cg isn't out due to fuel imbalances and your airspeed isn't erratic you should stay fairly straight and level over a period of time after disengaging auto level.
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Originally posted by jon
As far as im conserned does it really matter? come fly your cessna against my p 51 and see how it really does.
why make such an indane post as this if you have nothing to offer? you trolling?
Avor had a question and asked for help.
that is what this forum is for: Help & Training
you asked as far as you are concerned does it really matter? well this is Avor's question & concern, and it matters to him!
get the picture? :)
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Originally posted by jon
As far as im conserned does it really matter? come fly your cessna against my p 51 and see how it really does.
Ok , 20 ft. off the deck at 70 mile and hour ok with you? First one to auger loses.
Or should I just park it on the runway so you can vulch it and get points so you can say how great a pilot you are. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I know with my stick setup I can point it in a general direction and it will stay like that for awhile. I'll have to go and check it out again sometime. I rarely use it because auto level or auto angle is easier and guaranteed. I'll try to see if I maintain a specific altitude and specific airspeed if I can remove auto level and see if it stays flying at that attitude. The only thing that should keep it from staying straight and level in AH is your stick calibration, steady airspeed and proper cg. As long as your our cg isn't out due to fuel imbalances and your airspeed isn't erratic you should stay fairly straight and level over a period of time after disengaging auto level.
So there I was over macho grande...Opps...forget that...When you cut thru all Cobra's cool F-15 stuff you get back to the real issue at hand. In the games default mode there is a little nose bounce. It can be easily taken out by making some adjustments. So can pitch. Also as Cobra mentioned above here are auto pilots in the game for your convenience. So far, you're raised a quesiton but you haven't stepped forward to get help.
That being the case we stand ready to help you when you're ready for it.
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Sorry about going off topic but I was responding to an incorrect statement that had been brought up in regards to modern fighters and their flight controls. I could have gone into even more details regarding stability and precision but didn't have the time. :D
I did check my setup out last night though. I calibrated prior to entering AH. I lifted off and got my airspeed up and stable. I hit auto level and then disengaged it. I flew straight for quite awhile before I decided it wasn't worth much more testing.
As Ren said early nose bounce itself can be reduced to an extent. In the end you'll still have some nose bounce but it will very minor bouncing. It's just a matter of fiddling with your setup in AH to get rid of that. I just used Ack Acks profile and tweaked it a bit from it's original state. Very minor tweaking and it made a considerable difference in nose bounce. Ack Acks profile alone did wonders.:D
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Cobra, it was great reading!!!
Thanks
:)