Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Urchin on August 27, 2001, 11:40:00 PM
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OK, I asked this earlier in a different thread but I guess nobody noticed.
I'll preface this with an example from tonight that plain boggles my mind. I was up in the 190D9, got into a fight with a 109F4 (I asked him what kind it was after he shot me down).
I started the fight going much faster than him, I blew all my speed going up into a loop on the merge that he just cut inside of. I ended up behind him and I hit a few times. The fight sort of degenerated into a "long range" scissors, with both of us making head on passes, followed by about 1.5k of seperation between them. I DRILLED him on 3 consequtive passes, he did not hit me once. I was firing both MGs and cannons, and I'd open fire at about 500 yards and stop at around 200 or so to break. I saw at LEAST 30 hit sprites on those 3 passes alone, ot counting the few hits I'd had earlier. He flew merrily along until the 3rd pass, where I hit him and saw a lot of dark smoke come pouring out. He declined to turn around again and headed home with me in pursuit. After about a minute of pursuit, an enemy C-Hog came down to bounce me, and this also turned into a scissor fight. I hit him maybe 3 or 4 time with the cannon (wasn't firing MGs) on 2 passes. On the 3rd pass he got the snapshot on me (he missed), and I declined to continue the fight, instead I broke away from him and started to run.
As I looked back to see where the C-hog was (he was about 1.3k back), the 109 came swooping down, still trailing smoke. He ended up on my 6 about 400 yards back. He fired a burst. I promptly lost my engine from this burst that was fired at d400 from my dead 6. This really, really, REALLY pissed me off, especially since this was the same 109 that I friggin pounded on 3 seperate occasions.
So my question is this- What EXACTLY do those hit sprites represent? 1 round hitting? I don't care if it was a MG or a cannon round hitting, because I know that it was both. I've fired the MGs and cannons together on numerous occasions, and they will both hit as long as the target isn't more than 350 yards away or so (my convergence is set to 300). I've killed numerous planes by hitting them in a HO situation with 6-8 "flashes" showing while I was firing both MG's and cannons, so I'm not buying the argument that I ONLY saw MG fire hitting. Unless my MGs can kill someone with 6-8 hits to the front end of a plane, I hit with both.
I mostly fly 109s and 190s, though I do jump into other planes sometimes. However, I usually only fly the G10 and the G2, not the F4. The G2 and the G10 cannot take anywhere NEAR as many hits as I dumped into this 109F4. Is the 109F4 just 100 times tougher than the G2 and the G10, and nobody told me?
I just want to know what happened here, because the little kid in me is screaming that this guy is cheating, although rationally I know that I isn't the case.
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Does Wine taste better than CHEESE??? CHEEZZY... :mad:
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<delete that post> it was meant for for a diff post! sorry
:confused:
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Damn, here I thought two people actually made constructive responses to my question. Ah well...
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My understanding Urchin is that each sprite represents a hit be it cannon or mg. I do know when there is a lot of lag between players that you can often light them up like a christmas tree and not do any or very little dammage.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/markatsig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Urchin, I would like to see the film. Please send it to me at treywells@sbcglobal.net or post it here
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Urchin... if you where doing nose to nose passes perhaps what you thought where "hits" where actually his guns firing?
The V-Sync thing comes to mind as well for rubber bullets.
xBAT
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Very good question Urchin. Been playing AH since a long time now and had several occasions like that as well. Especially because I fly 109's and 190's myself mostly. Another thing I really don't understand is the "one-ping" engine dead hits on the 190. This has been posted many times before too, I must have missed the explanation for it.
Now I'm curious on explanation of the damage modelling for the planes in AH in general, because I think it would explain some things that happened here. Has it been provided to the community before? Is the damage modelling something similar to that of the planes in CFS? (I understand the way it was modelled in CFS)
I would like to see HTC staff comment on this post too.
It might look strange to give flight sim modelling info on this question, but I think that real pilots in WWII had knowledge on real plane damage characteristics or info on the strength of planes and where to hit them to inflict most damage too.
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Ammo- I'd love to show you the film, except I wasn't taping. I don't tape every single fight I'm in, in fact I rarely tape them unless I think the fight will be particularly good, or unless I've had trouble with a particular plane type and want to see what I'm doing wrong. Niether was the case last night.
So I suppose that in your mind since I don't "have the film" it never happened. Nothing I can do to change that, maybe you can ask the other guy, although I doubt if he filmed it.
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you are really settling in as aces high's new resident luftwhiner. good to see the whiner stigma will be stuck to those of us who fly lw birds thanks to the tireless efforts of your kind.
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I take umbrage with those who label Urchin a whiner. He's posted lots of helpful repsonses to other's questions.
Sure the film would help but he doesn't have it. So he does the next best thing and describes it. I don't see it as a whine. Since the same thing has happened to me, I take it as a serious inquiry. Is there something we are missing aboput the damage model. (I don't think wing cannonfire and hit sprites look very much alike, but that may be just me). Personally, I think the DM is variable just a bit, but that's kind of like real life. I do a lot of training on the drones offline. I can make the same pass on three differenet days, and get three differenet results. Someitmes the target flat out splodes, some times black smoke, something white smoke. Who knows what the answer is, but I do think it is an approoriate one for Leph or someone from AH to respond to.
:rolleyes:
Cyas Up!
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It's good to see you care MRfish. Now shut up or add something constructive.
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Also- I can tell the difference between a hit sprite and an enemy gun flashing. The hit sprites are larger and whiter, plus you can see them through "obstructions", like rails and stuff the in the cockpit. You can't see an enemy gun firing through obstructions in the cockpit.
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whatever urchin - you've chosen your path - now let's hear yet another 1500 word essay on how you lost a fight and how unfair it is.
:rolleyes:
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and why don't you post something constructive? in real life 1 bullet could damage your engine or by chance 50 could pass through and damage nothing - i notice you are never inspired from a victory only your losses- you just want to blame your losses on some invisible hand or flaw in the game. grow up and quit being a victim -
and ps - 'shut up' is a little strong language. a good rule is that you shouldn't say anything on the net that you wouldn't say in person. you definitley wouldn't want to say that to me in person.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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Actually, Mrfish, if you are as ignorant in real life as you appear to be on this board, I definately WOULD tell you to shut up. It is a personality fault of mine, I say exactly what I mean.
Oh, by the way- please check the thread labeled "P38 damage" in the Main Board. You don't have to post there (and I'd rather you didn't in fact), but you can read it.
My, I really must stop editing this post. Congratulations on your superb K/D of 1.29.
Right now I'm only at 2.72, but with time I am sure I'll be just as good as you are. You can read this however you chose to.
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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well if i flew like a popsicle i'd have a better k/d too but instead i spend a lot of time trying to capture bases. let's swap addresses via personal messenge and we can set up a time for you to tell me to shut up.
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Well, I don't know what I can tell you Urchin. As a Jug driver and lover of .50 cals, I think each hit sprite is a round hitting. That's just what I THINK, and I have no inside knowledge. All I've got is a lot of experience and a decent knowledge of networking and computers in general. Only HT could give you a definative answer here, but I'd bet I'm correct. :)
Now as far as this particular case, there are a few things you need to take into consideration. Not saying any of these were "the problem" in this case, but one or a combination of these things could have caused what you saw.
1. You were firing both cannon and MG's. This means you have no way of knowing how many of those flashes were cannon hits, indeed if any were. The hit flashes look the same either way. You can easily be hitting with only MG's. In the LW birds especially, this would be the case unless you were exactly at 1G and the target was at your convergence point. Dispersion means there is some spread of course, but it's quite possible, and even likely to hit only with MG's when firing both in the German iron, especially if you are pulling more than 1 G.
2. If you get un-lucky and spread your hits around, most planes can take a lot more damage than if you concentrated it in one place.
That said, I think in this case it is likey the next point.
3. Computers on the Internet are not a consistent medium. Lets say for a moment that for some reason a router someplace was dumping packets at odd times. Also there is the possibility of rubber bullets on occasion due to issues on your end. Lets say there was an asynchronous routing issue so that packets were getting TO you fine (positional updates of the other guy, etc.) while the damage packets you were sending to the server were not getting through. Or maybe you have a new video driver with V-synch disabled that is not "seeing" damage packets. All kinds of possible explanations here.
The bottom line is that in the entirety of my experience, AH models gunnery very well, and I see no evidence of a problem. Yep, there are exceptions, I've seen some weird toejam occasionally. Nature of the computer/Internet beast. But these strange happenings are in my experience, the exception by a large margin, not the rule. Such events are pretty damn rare for me, and tend to occur during times of general Intenet problems such as we have seen in recent weeks. HTC builds a product to work around and deal with these problems remarkably well, but they can't control everything. :)
Now if you thing there is something wrong, a bug or defect causing weird behavior, the best thing is to get a buddy and test it online in the TA. Oh... and try firing cannons only and see if you don't see less of those times when it seems like he'll never die. ;)
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Oh, by the way, please head into the Airplane Forum and tell Tac to quit whining about the P38 guns. I think he has a valid point, but I guess you don't, especially since he is asking the same thing as me but using a different plane.
And no Mr fish, I've got no interest in coming all the way across the U.S.A to tell you to shut up. If you are ever in Maryland let me know, I'll do it then. Of course, since you are probably 6'7'' and 267 pounds (because all the 12 year old boys on the net are) I'd be to scared to actually do it. :rolleyes:
In any case, I'm done with you. If we happen to meet in the MA I guess you can "prove your manliness" then by defeating me.
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Leph, you wouldn't happen to know how I check for V-sync, would you? I'll poke around, it is probably in the Nvidia setup somewhere.
I know that normally in that situation I'm firing everything I can fire at the guy- and normally one pass is enough. That leads me to believe that either I've got great MG's or that at least SOME cannon rounds hit when I fire everything. As to the "1G" thing, I was not pulling G's while firing, I stopped firing early in order to get out of the way. I've hit with cannons and MG's while firing from 500 yards away at an LA7 (unless 3-4 MG hits can take a wing off an LA7 at 500 yards). I honestly don't think the bullet drop is a huge deal as long as the target isn't more than 400 yards away (flying away from you). On a HO I've fired the 30mm's in the 190A8 and gotten kills as far as 700 yards out- I think the fact that he is heading towards you leaves the bullet with less time to drop in HO situations.
I guess the most reasonable explanation is that I was "dropping packets"- that actually makes sense in a way. I've got a pretty good connection though, I usually ping HTC at about 60-80 MS. Does latency have anything to do with dropping packets, or are they totally unrelated?
Found the "V-sync" option, it is "on by default"- so thats not the problem.
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Merryland, eh Urchin?
We're in the same state, want me to come across this fairy state and drop kick you to MrFish's house? :)
Seriously though, I live in MD too.
-SW
ps: you bastard, you edited your post!!!
err EDIT: You didn't edit your post... you just posted another one really quickly!
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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i sent you a private message - you should do the same.
ps - we are on the same team unless you've switched recently but i'd be happy to meet you in the da anytime.
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Mr Fish- I'm actually rather amused an flattered. I'll keep the contents of your message private, as it is a "private message"- but you honestly don't come across as a man that has "a bachelors and soon a masters" in physics. But then, I suppose in your profession you express yourself with numbers and not words. You need to calm down, by the way. Getting as angry as you obviously are over someone baiting you on a BBS is probably not good for your health.
I'll drop it now, although I meant every word I said.
And yes Swulfe, been in Maryland for quite a while now. Live in a little ghetto named Odenton, it is about halfway between Baltimore and D.C.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
And yes Swulfe, been in Maryland for quite a while now. Live in a little ghetto named Odenton, it is about halfway between Baltimore and D.C.
Odenton... Ghetto? LOL! ;)
Been living in Maryland for about 3 years, moved out to Deale from Wash, DC (from a real ghetto, Anacostia ;) )
Anyways, there's a lot of guys playing AH from/around DC... would be kinda cool to have some kind of metropolitan event or something.
-SW
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That WOULD be awesome- I think some of the folks around Chicago are doing that. You are right though, I've seen around 10 people that say they are in MD, we could have out own little "con" hehe.
Also- Mrfish. Last word here from me. I wouldn't recommend giving your address out to a random stranger on the 'Net. You don't know a thing about me- for all you know I could be psychotic or a criminal (which, thankfully for you, I'm not). Just a word of caution there.
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i don't care- i am surrounded by psychotics anyway - i live in san francisco. i'm a real live person and will stand being everything i say 'in person'. you on other hand are still an anonymous typist taking more annymous jabs. congrats!
: ;)
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you are really settling in as aces high's new resident luftwhiner. good to see the whiner stigma will be stuck to those of us who fly lw birds thanks to the tireless efforts of your kind.
whatever urchin - you've chosen your path - now let's hear yet another 1500 word essay on how you lost a fight and how unfair it is.
and why don't you post something constructive? in real life 1 bullet could damage your engine or by chance 50 could pass through and damage nothing - i notice you are never inspired from a victory only your losses- you just want to blame your losses on some invisible hand or flaw in the game. grow up and quit being a victim -
and ps - 'shut up' is a little strong language. a good rule is that you shouldn't say anything on the net that you wouldn't say in person. you definitley wouldn't want to say that to me in person.
well if i flew like a popsicle i'd have a better k/d too but instead i spend a lot of time trying to capture bases. let's swap addresses via personal messenge and we can set up a time for you to tell me to shut up.
i sent you a private message - you should do the same.
ps - we are on the same team unless you've switched recently but i'd be happy to meet you in the da anytime.
i don't care- i am surrounded by psychotics anyway - i live in san francisco. i'm a real live person and will stand being everything i say 'in person'. you on other hand are still an anonymous typist taking more annymous jabs. congrats!
Makes you kind of wonder who's the whiner in here!
Thx for the excellent contribution to this post.
Lepthurn:
Isn't the hit sprite initiated by the opponent's computer when he actualy gets hit? If so I can imagine that one would miss some hits due to computer/internet flaws, but all sprites that actually show should be hits then.
If the hit sprites are initiated by ones own computer and hit info is send to opponents computer I can imagine that some hit info gets lost due to computer/internet flaws.
[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: air_ReCoile ]
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The guns in AH are strange at times. Ive put so many pings on 1 planes wing in my 190 and nothing, only to find the guy can get right on my tail again.
IS this lag were talking here? I mean, weve all seen warps, well what if there isnt a 'Warp' lag, and jsut a simple time delay lag?
Could that plane i just fired on really be jsut a few inches infront? I see pings on my screen yeah, maybe he doesnt hear or see a ping at all?
Does very ping mean something has been damaged? Or is a peice of damage (aileron for eg) randomly choosen to be damaged?
I dunnae how the damage model works, but sometimes it can seem a little unfair but thats prolly just me, being a 'whiner'.
Just remember without whiners bugs never get seen or fixed. :)
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Hey Urchin and MrFish:
:D :D
Please calm down the rhetoric. It was mildly amusing in the begining but you both have escalated it too far for this forum. If you want to flame each other, don't impose your shenanigans on the rest of us. Please go flame somewhere else!
It's a game and there is much to talk about the game instead of cheap shoting each other.
As to the lag/delay/packet issue. I think there is some real merit as the possible culprit. Try this out and see if you get the same results I did. Go offline and fly a pattern of attacks at the the drones. They are easy to follow repeadtedly fromthe ded six and you can set up at a fixed distance, 300 400 or 500, whatever. Then fire away. Get a feel for the timing of hits, what the sprites look like, etc. Use MG and then use Cannon. (Urchin, i think you underestimate the drop issue with cannon vs. mg) Then turn kill shooter on and do the same and watch you damage read out. Then go to the H2H arena with a buddy and do the same. Then go to the MA and do the same. The timing is definitely differenet over the net, and its even differnet between H2H and MA.
Perhaps that is what is happening because it has also happened to a lot of other people. I am upgrading to DSL next week, (cable not available in most of Metro Denver beleive it or not) and I hope to solve some of this rubber bullet issue.
Anways, as usual, Leph makes the point. It's in the nature of the beast I fear. Maybe someday when all the invisible machines through which our flying packets fly have 2 gig processors and 1 gig connects, this will be a thing of the past.
Meanwhile, remember, it is a great game folks. If you get a bad flight or two or ten, don't take it too serious.
Have fun, Laugh a whole bunch!
Cya UP!
:rolleyes: "Lost that bogie again!"
:eek: "Bogie's on my six again"
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Great advice Syzygy! thanks willl go test out in offline.
Im on ADSL myself, but i still get the odd bit of lag is this me lagging or jsut u 56k scum? lol j/k (plz dont flame, joke)
Still get lag on DSL though, and im pretty sure that lag in the main arena doesnt jsut show up as a 'Warp' and can have smaller effects.
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Well thaks for bursting my bubble ofhope that DSL wouldhelp., Perhaps it is only that I suck at this game and I can't blame the hardware! :(
Anyway, given that you are from UK, it is still amazing that the game works so well for so many all over the planet!
Cya Up!
:rolleyes:
:eek:
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Yeah im in the UK so theres that extra ocean for my packets of data to travel accross ;)
Just remember ADSL will help the speed of your connection not others. If a download site is slow, it will still be slow because your connection wont improve theirs and they can still only push out the information at their speed. ADSL helps a big deal though and i highly recommend it. Its stable and the lag isnt anything you notice, its not as if the whole night will be a 'laggy' night like i used to get on my 56k. All im saying is you will probably see 1 warp every now and then.
Even if you had a 1,000,000 Gig connection speed, it would still be slowed by the rest of the net :)
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Originally posted by Guinnwork:
Just remember ADSL will help the speed of your connection not others...
It is my understanding that the ADSL connection only works from you to your ISP, after that you are at the mercy of whatever route your data takes. Just because you have ADSL doesn't mean that your data travels high speed broadband from your house all the way to HT creations.....and back.
Thats how it has been explained to me anyway?
Vulch
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Yeah Vulture, thats exactly how it works. But the speed of your ISP to the rest of the net is usually faster than ADSL well you'd hope it was :)
ADSL is also not the greatest connection for playing games on the net, its asymetric, meaning 1 side is longer than the other, so its download speeds are great, but upload is medi-ocre. I think usually get about 256k upload, thats only 4x that of a normal modem. I might be wrong about my connect speed, but i think its 256k upload. Cable can probably handle gaming as much as dsl, but from what i hear its not too good during peak hours.
Anyway enough hijacking some poor guys thread ;)
I am sure lag might have an affect on 'pings' on aircraft though.
Guinness
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i was just browsing the boards when i read this one. i to have had this scenario with a 202 when i was in a spit5 i light up his fuselage from cockpit to tail.i broke off only to be pinged by the same 202 and my engine instantly went off the boil.i play aces high as a break from my usual graphic work i do on my pc so i dont know much about lag,packets ect.but i find it a little disturbing when urchin and mrfish get into a arguement over a video game. because as good as aces is,that is all it is a video game.and to come down to the threat of physical violence over something wish is'nt real is a bit sad.if you think aces high has probs imagine the probs real wartime p[ilots had.when a 30mm cannon shell went straight through them they were not up and flying again in 30 secs.so today you get shot to hell, tomorrow you down them like flies.lets get on with our favourite game, and with each other. it's just a shame whole countries can't settle their differences in ah. ;) p.s. i not scared of you i am over 5000 miles away
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it's pretty short sighted to think our argument ever had anything to do with 'a video game'. look closely and you'll see the real reason. people don't fight over pixels they fight over ego fulfillment(on both sides - that's not a veiled jab). silly? pointless? unproductive? "disturbing"? most definitely. but video game related? - no. it's a community issue, nothing technology can address.
admitedly, it started with me getting sick of urchin's posts and instead of internalizing it or just ignoring it (the productive route),i made the mistake of posting which is really just emulating the very behavior i am accusing urchin of or possibly even taking it a step further.
i don't know where you live draken, but where i live you had better not let anyone tell you to shut up. i've spent a lot of time around 'wanna be' neighborood dictators and bullies in my years and if you let them dog you once they will all the time.
it is conditioned as a defense mechanism and pops up at the worst of times. it belongs in an alley not on a bbs full of harmless computer geeks. :D i should be beyond that by now, granted. it's more of a reflex at this point and way unnecessary for the situation i was presented with. it's just my experience that it is better to face all your detractors and people who appear to be trying to place you in some ridiculous pecking order and risk taking your knocks rather than let someone try to disrespect you. i have plenty of scars and healed bones to remind me of the risks but i sleep like a baby knowing i'm no one's lackey and can ht the street every day owned by no one.
i hope that makes sense but it's not offered as an excuse just an explanation and as a case study in overreaction for all the sigmud freud fans out there ;) .
i'll take the blame for my part and offer my humble and sincere apologies to the AH community if for nothing else than creating a downer situation.
pompous people (or people i perceive as pompous in case i am mistaken) set me off like no other event. ego fixation accounts for a lot of the world's ills imo and i see it in every bush sometimes because i might be looking for it a bit too hard. i think losing graciously is a quality of strength and something i have had to work at (and i mean hard my brothers...) personally and still fail at often.
99% of the time if i taunt someone like i did urchin, it is intended to spur introspection and my hopes are that the person will see they are being silly. that type of taunting produces that effect in me but it is a false assumption to think it will in everyone. it sounds mean and probably is but as a mitigation the bad intent isnt there.
it's not my place though really is it? (no need to answer - that's a rhetorical question btw for those of you reaching to quote and slam me) - i will leave it to fate to decide from now on and if the person is off base, karma will kick in anyway and if they are right after all then time will tell that too ...
now....i do find it hypocritical in a way that so many of you are so disdained by our disagreement and behaviors and condemn it as being unfit for further discussion yet you continue the affair by voicing your opinions and condemnations. in a way your are extending this whole stupid affair.
can't you see urchin and i have let it go?! maybe you all should do the same and go kill stuff. i can't speak for urchin but i hear your objections loud and clear.
besides.... if you need get it off your chest with me, i am not hard to find if you look for the lowest, slowest 109 in the ma - the one with the wing missing, the engine throwing 2 types of smoke, no aileron and the 6 cons on his ass. <S> :)
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oops! double post
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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can't you see urchin and i have let it go?! maybe you all should do the same and go kill stuff. i can't speak for urchin but i hear your objections loud and clear.
Absolutely, I let it go pretty much 5 minutes after it happened :).
I would like to apoligize to Mr. Fish for my unwarranted comments. I crossed the line on that, and for that I apoligize.
I'd also like to apoligize to the AH community for my part in this- it would be foolish to blame Fish for everything, it takes two to argue as well :).
Fish spoke truly when he said we weren't really arguing about the game- at least on my part. My ego got a little overinflated, and I said some things that I should not have said.
Fish- you did cause some introspection on my part. Hopefully I will remember the lesson before I make an bellybutton out of myself the next time.
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Ahhhhh, is this harmony nice!
NOW, LETS ALL GO KILL STUFF!!!!!!
Good on both of ya!
Oh and uh, Mr. Fish, if you will look below you, through the two kinds of smoke and parts, the wreck upon which your wreck is crashing will usually be me.
Cya UP!
:eek: Eeek, Mr Fish is falling on me!
:rolleyes: Who shot him down?
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Just been reading this thread and Fell I must comment on the apparent mental instability of mrfish (I am a psychiatrist).
If he is indeed sending urchin private messages giving out his address in the hope of a confrontation then all I can say is,send your address to me and I shall come round during the night and stab you then eat your liver(not a PRACTICING psychiatrist)
Im going back to the dark place now.
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sorry tozza - i recently sold my liver to david crosby. i've been told i have a nice pancreas though.
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:D
LOL, that's the kind of humor one wants to see!
By the way, how much does a pancreas go for these days?
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Syzygy ]
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Originally posted by Tozza:
send your address to me and I shall come round during the night and stab you then eat your liver(not a PRACTICING psychiatrist)
Im going back to the dark place now.
With fava beans and a nice Chianti?
:cool:
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: GeistX ]