Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on March 03, 2005, 08:35:03 AM
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I used to be all gung-ho for the death penalty because I thought our system worked pretty good. After studying some cases where DNA cleared innocent men, I thought that too often the death penalty was given without absolute proof.
Earlier this week the Supreme Court ruled that criminals under the age of 18 can't be given the death penalty. I thought that was bogus - if there's absolute proof of guilt, then they should be executed. Murder should know no age limits.
And today I read this.
Teen Accused of Killing Tenn. Bus Driver
1 hour, 56 minutes ago U.S. National - AP
By GARY TANNER, Associated Press Writer
CUMBERLAND CITY, Tenn. - Joyce Gregory was about halfway through her morning school bus route when she stopped to pick up 14-year-old Jason Clinard. But police believe that instead of getting on the bus early Wednesday, Clinard fatally shot Gregory with a .45-caliber handgun, an act apparently prompted by an argument over Clinard's use of smokeless tobacco.
None of the 24 students on the bus, ranging in ages from 5 to 17, were hurt.
The shooting happened about 6:15 a.m. just outside Cumberland City, about 50 miles northwest of Nashville. Gregory, a 47-year-old married mother of two daughters, was picking up students and taking them to Dover Elementary and Stewart County High School.
Two weeks ago, Gregory told family members she was having trouble with students "dipping snuff" on the bus, according to her cousin, Jacqueline Reed. After several warnings, she reported them to school administrators Tuesday, Reed said. The 14-year-old suspect was among the students.
The boy had not yet boarded the bus when the driver was shot, said Jennifer Johnson, spokeswoman for the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. Police would not say where the boy got the weapon.
Officials gave few details about the shooting and would not comment on a motive for the shooting. They also refused to release the boy's name, but neighbors, schoolmates and Gregory's relatives identified him as Clinard.
District Attorney Dan Alsobrooks said the suspect was charged with first-degree murder in Juvenile Court and was being held without bond. He said the boy could face adult charges as the investigation continues.
Public defender Jack Lockert met with the boy for about 45 minutes.
"I would characterize him as being in shock," Lockert said. "We obviously feel like he has severe mental issues. He's an A and B student and had never been in trouble before."
Clinard was taken to a juvenile detention center in Nashville and will undergo a psychiatric evaluation in the next 30 days.
Gregory was a teacher's assistant for four or five years and had been a bus driver for the past two years, said Phillip Wallace, director of Stewart County Schools.
"I lost a good friend this morning, so I'm hurt," said Bill Austin, a supervisor for Stewart County schools. "We're trying to do our level best to get our kids through this. That's what we've got to do right now."
Now two daughters will never see their mother again. A husband must raise his kids alone. And the most the boy will get is life in prison? I'm guessing he'll do 20 or so years and get out as a 34-or 40-year-old felon.
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yep... he will be a 30 or 40 year old sociopath when he is released and probly live right next door to the next people he kills.
unless of course he kills someone in prison or the ward and then he will get antother 5 years or so.
lazs
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A 14 year-old? I would be happy with life in prison, along with the person he got the gun from. :mad:
"None of the 24 students on the bus, ranging in ages from 5 to 17, were hurt."
It should be "WAS hurt". "None" is singular.
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So we treat children as adults when they do something wrong?
But we keep telling them they are not adult enough to vote, drive, drink or smoke?
This is the biggest ****ing double standard there is. they need to have a single age for when some one is an adult or child.
If they are a child, treat them as a child, in both the court system. and in life. if they are an adult treat them like one. with all the perks and responsibilities
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Its one thing if you're protecting the child from themselves, but its another if you're protecting society from the child. If a kid commits a capital crime, they should serve adult sentences.
You don't suppose there's a newshound journalist out there asking the parents what kind of video games and rock music the boy listened to, do you?
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Originally posted by Trell
So we treat children as adults when they do something wrong?
But we keep telling them they are not adult enough to vote, drive, drink or smoke?
This is the biggest ****ing double standard there is. they need to have a single age for when some one is an adult or child.
If they are a child, treat them as a child, in both the court system. and in life. if they are an adult treat them like one. with all the perks and responsibilities
They are children. They have all the rights and responsibilities of a child. Laws have penalties. Murder has a penalty. The punishment for murder shouldn't be age restrictive. That's why we have juries. A jury isn't required to hand down the death penalty. A jury examines the case, determines guilt, and determines the appropriate penalty.
It's not a double standard at all.
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Do they use Zyklon-B when gassing people or is there some other, newer gas for that purpose?
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Originally posted by Martlet
They are children. They have all the rights and responsibilities of a child. Laws have penalties. Murder has a penalty. The punishment for murder shouldn't be age restrictive. That's why we have juries. A jury isn't required to hand down the death penalty. A jury examines the case, determines guilt, and determines the appropriate penalty.
It's not a double standard at all.
Sure it is, that is why they passed laws to alow childern to be tried as adults. it was not allways like that. and the choice has allways been with the prosicuters. They should not be in the adult legal system. they should be facing the family court.
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Originally posted by Trell
Sure it is, that is why they passed laws to alow childern to be tried as adults. it was not allways like that. and the choice has allways been with the prosicuters. They should not be in the adult legal system. they should be facing the family court.
The choice is with the prosecutors now. A child doesn't HAVE to be tried as an adult. It's an option.
Like I said. It's no double standard.
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What other group of people in this country. could we make sure are not alowed to vote, yet. pass laws to gas them for making mistakes. and claim they are not responisible to have rights the right to vote. and chose what they believe is right, but claim they know whats right when they do somehting wrong.
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Do a google on the name David Kyle Gilley. If you want more details, include the words: Murfreesboro, Tennessee, Laura, and Salmon.
The crime in question was committed 6 weeks before his 18th birthday.
He went free for 17 years afterwards. They've had over THREE YEARS of appeals BEFORE he's even been tried.
Tell me he shouldn't be tried as an adult.
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Originally posted by Trell
What other group of people in this country. could we make sure are not alowed to vote, yet. pass laws to gas them for making mistakes. and claim they are not responisible to have rights the right to vote. and chose what they believe is right, but claim they know whats right when they do somehting wrong.
I don't even understand what you've said.
ESL, perhaps?
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Y'all must be a lot of "strict disciplinarians" if you know what i mean. No need to be so harsh. Boys will be boys.
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I think it's obvious that the real culprit here is the fact that he was forced to catch the school bus at 6 AM in the morning. No jury will convict him, once they find that out.
Allowing the death penalty on a case by case basis for people who are not yet 18 is consistent with other parts of our society. On an individual basis, some minors can become emancipated and acquire many of the same rights and responsibilities of someone older then they are.
As long as the process of determining eligibility to die examines the accused and doesn't focus on the crime itself, I think this will fit our current definition of justice. That said, I remain uncomfortable with the number of people executed and later found innocent. Even one is too many. As our science progresses, our standard of evidence for execution should increase too. If our technology and justice system cannot deliver a slam dunk, then the person should be locked up.
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Sorry that's what happens when I try to do to many things at once.
My point is that the country is afraid of its children. and we have caused this on our selves.
We imprison parents for disciplining there children.
and we pass more laws to be harder and harder on child criminals.
We execute people who commit crimes when they are children. when they are just messed up kids. rather then trying to fix children we execute them. All in the name of public safety, and people agree because people are afraid of there own kids.
Marlet, Are you the same person as you were when you were 11?. have you changed your ideas of the world and your self during your life
Looking back to when I was a kid, my head spins on what I thought was cool or even interesting. something of the stupid things I did. some days I am amazed I did not get hurt more. I believe I was one of the better kids too.
Now a days I could have been brought up on terrorism charges, for playing with blackpoweder as a toy.. would I do this anymore?. no, but I know better now then when I was 15.
But there are lots of people I know that were into drugs when a kid. and have turned there lives around. I don't like the idea of ending a child's potential because he screwed up big time as a child. Children make mistakes, sometimes very big mistakes. and I hate the double;e standard we have for children.
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When I was 11 I knew it was wrong to murder people.
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when you were 11 your emotions ruled your actions far more than they do now.
Kids function on emotions and instinct... i think its not until you're 16 that you develop a concience and have your brain take over the decision making proccess.
I remember in middle school there were a bunch of kids who were beyond bullish. I remember the *total* hatred I felt towards them, and I have no doubt that if I had had a weapon with me when they picked on me I wouldve used it with a big smile on my face.
One of them died in an accident in my junior year of high school (back home we're stuck with the same people from primary to high school..so we grow up together). While everyone else cried and grieved I felt...relieved and glad he was dead.
Horrible of me to feel like that now that I think back on it... but back then... heck, I had to supress smiling on his memorial service held in school.
I think anyone over 16 should be tried and sentenced as an adult.
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Many murders by adults are emotion based.
When I was 11 I knew it was wrong to murder people.
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when i was little kid , i had access to guns, but i never killed anyone BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS WRONG,
idiots, "but he was such a good boy", "he's only a baby", "he didn't know what he was doing"
he knew , and he knew he could get away with it.
i wonder how many people would change their mind if it was their wife, sister, mother that he shot?
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Originally posted by john9001
when i was little kid , i had access to guns, but i never killed anyone BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS WRONG,
idiots, "but he was such a good boy", "he's only a baby", "he didn't know what he was doing"
he knew , and he knew he could get away with it.
i wonder how many people would change their mind if it was their wife, sister, mother that he shot?
Exactly. I fired my first gun before I started school. I received my first gun on my tenth birthday.
I never shot anyone.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
A 14 year-old? I would be happy with life in prison, along with the person he got the gun from. :mad:
"None of the 24 students on the bus, ranging in ages from 5 to 17, were hurt."
It should be "WAS hurt". "None" is singular.
Actually the sentence is correct. If you wanted to say was hurt you could change it to
Not one of the 24 students on the bus, who ranged in age from 5 to 17 was hurt.
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Originally posted by OIO
when you were 11 your emotions ruled your actions far more than they do now.
Kids function on emotions and instinct... i think its not until you're 16 that you develop a concience and have your brain take over the decision making proccess.
Wow, you didn't know right from wrong until 16? What a messed up kid you must've been.
Like Martlet, I had a pretty good idea murder was wrong when I was 11. This is something so amazingly basic, I have a hard time believing that you don't grasp that EVERYONE should understand such a basic concept before their teens. And more importantly, than when murder is committed, at any age, there should be repercussions. Severe repercussions. Like death.
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So just because their brains run more on emotion then ours do they should be free from punishment?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
So just because their brains run more on emotion then ours do they should be free from punishment?
Not free from punishment, But a punishment that fits more with being a child. then the punishment that effects who has lived in the real world, and had it help shape the way he is.
As a child you are shapped by your parents with out alot of choice. As an adult, you have no excuse for your actions.
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Trell
So you would be ok with a 14 year old getting out after a murder like this at 18 cause at 18 your juvi record is closed, and living next to you?
You think juvi prison will reform him enough to be near your loved ones?
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Originally posted by Trell
Not free from punishment, But a punishment that fits more with being a child. then the punishment that effects who has lived in the real world, and had it help shape the way he is.
As a child you are shapped by your parents with out alot of choice. As an adult, you have no excuse for your actions.
So you propose we arrest and execute the parents instead?
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Originally posted by Engine
Wow, you didn't know right from wrong until 16? What a messed up kid you must've been.
Like Martlet, I had a pretty good idea murder was wrong when I was 11. This is something so amazingly basic, I have a hard time believing that you don't grasp that EVERYONE should understand such a basic concept before their teens. And more importantly, than when murder is committed, at any age, there should be repercussions. Severe repercussions. Like death.
Did you ever drink before the age of 21? or steal lawn gnomes just to see the reaction of the owener. What about stealing shopping carts and or anything else that you did when you were a child, that you look back on and just cringe. all the things that if done at the age you are now, could put you in jail.
I used to take out those big construction barrels with my care when i was 16. It was a stupid and dangerous thing to do. and would probably be a felony now....
I never did anything as vilont as shooting someone. but just looking back at some of the things i thought was fun doing back then. i know i am a changed person.
the same goes for the child murder.
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He got you there, Engine. The old "stealing lawn gnomes is the same as murder" trick. You fell for it, too.
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BS
your saying that murder is just something a kid may do cause they are to dumb to know better.
That is crap. Some things even kids know are bad. If you didnt know murder was bad as a kid there was something very wrong with you.
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Originally posted by Martlet
So you propose we arrest and execute the parents instead?
No i propose we take the kid. depending on the crime. and lock him up. but not for life. not in an adult jail. They are a child they can still be taught right from wrong. they need help. not a death sentance..
When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.
At what age do we consider childern men???. 18, 16? 11?
I believe they have charged childern as young as 7 as adults..... that is sad.
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Moral equivalence. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
BS
your saying that murder is just something a kid may do cause they are to dumb to know better.
That is crap. Some things even kids know are bad. If you didnt know murder was bad as a kid there was something very wrong with you.
So you are proposing to let the children to drive drink, vote and smoke, at 11 too?, I mean they know well enough to be responsible right???
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This punk should be EXECUTED!!!!!!!
Trell, think for just a moment with me here........Imagine this bus driver was.........your mom.
Now how do you feel?
No matter what the age of the MURDERER, this innocent woman who was just trying to provide for her family and help teach these kids a better path against breaking rules of tabbaco is now dead!
Why would anyone think so much about the MURDERER? Lets think about the INNOCENT VICTOM and then make a decision.
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Trell's dancing. Whether he's a decent troller or supremely dense remains to be determined.
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At 11 I knew smoking was for idiots.
I knew drinking and driving was for idiots and wrong.
But none of that is the point.
The point is kids are kids and they do dumb ****, but most still know even when they are doing the dumb **** that it is wrong.
So your saying you would want this kid, to live next to you after he gets at out at cause that s how kids are treated who brake laws?
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Originally posted by Engine
Trell's dancing. Whether he's a decent troller or supremely dense remains to be determined.
Dancing? i have not changed my opinion Yet.
I have a hard time believeing that we should end a childs life for doing something soo stupid. I believe that children should be treated as such, and if given a chance to reach adulthood. would look back on this and regret his disision for the rest of his life..
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
At 11 I knew smoking was for idiots.
I knew drinking and driving was for idiots and wrong.
But none of that is the point.
The point is kids are kids and they do dumb ****, but most still know even when they are doing the dumb **** that it is wrong.
So your saying you would want this kid, to live next to you after he gets at out at cause that s how kids are treated who brake laws?
I commend you for being the same since you have been born with out any changes.
But I believe you are the exception. I believe most children to wrong things. make mistakes. and even do bad things. that some how there child mind justified. Not every one is as perfect as you were at the age of 11.
I would have no problem if he was released after his time.. I do not think they should get. a get out of jail free card. but for child murderers, they should be spending a few years being looked at a juvenile prison. to try to be helped... not locked away and exicuted......
There was a juvenile place near me when I was growing up and the kids when to the same middle and high school as I did. but the one thing I saw there. was the badasses that showed up in middle school. the ones that would start fights for no reason, then just being for fun. ended up being good guys by the time they graduated... not saying it is 100% but I believe children change when out of the environment. where the adults would not.
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Originally posted by gofaster
...I thought that too often the death penalty was given without absolute proof.
When it comes to this issue, 'tis better to give than receive.
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i never stole a shopping cart, i only borrowed them with the full intention of bringing them back, i just forgot.
the murdered driver had two little kids, they now have no mother.
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Trelll
I have changed, dont be a fool on purpose it wont help you win an argument.
I did stupid **** as a kid. When I was doing Ilegal stupid **** I knew it was ilegal and did not want to get caught.
I grew out of that for the most part.
Kids are not stupid, most know right from wrong. Some things we can n ot let slide. Murder over not being able to chew snuff is one of them.
If he did not know what he was doing was wrong then he is a mental defect and will prolly never be worth a damn for anything.
Are you really saying that at age 11 you did not know right from wrong or that murder was wrong?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2 Trelll
I have changed, dont be a fool on purpose it wont help you win an argument.
I did stupid **** as a kid. When I was doing Ilegal stupid **** I knew it was ilegal and did not want to get caught.
I grew out of that for the most part.
Kids are not stupid, most know right from wrong. Some things we can n ot let slide. Murder over not being able to chew snuff is one of them.
If he did not know what he was doing was wrong then he is a mental defect and will prolly never be worth a damn for anything.
Are you really saying that at age 11 you did not know right from wrong or that murder was wrong?
I grew out of that for the most part.
That is the point i was trying to make. You grew out of them. WHY???? Becasue you became an adult. You know the effects of what you do.
As a child you do stuff. you may even know it is wrong or illegal, but you do it anyways. WHY becasue you did not think that far ahead. So tell me again. You grew out of doing the stupid things that kids do?? or were you just a criminal as a child, and deserve to burn for those choices..
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Originally posted by Trell
I grew out of that for the most part.
That is the point i was trying to make. You grew out of them. WHY???? Becasue you became an adult. You know the effects of what you do.
As a child you do stuff. you may even know it is wrong or illegal, but you do it anyways. WHY becasue you did not think that far ahead. So tell me again. You grew out of doing the stupid things that kids do?? or were you just a criminal as a child, and deserve to burn for those choices..
So murdering someone is "a stupid thing kids do"?
You're comparing taking someone's life, depriving children of their mother forever, with stealing lawn gnomes and smoking pot.
I believe you realize how ignorant your argument is by this point, you are just too obstinate to set it down.
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Again with this? "There's no difference between murder and having a beer at 19."
You can punish both differently, champ. No one here is arguing that kids should be allowed to vote because they should be executed for murder.
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You still missing the point, murder is wrong, you dont comit it cause you are not thinking far enough ahead.
EVEN as a kid.
I had thoughts of murder when I was a kid. There were several other kids I wanted to kill. I could have done soo easily in Jr high since I could had very easy access to guns.
I didn't cause I knew it was WRONG!
I am sure most normal kids are the same as I was.
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Ahh you you did not grow out of doing those things??. backpedeling now..
My link is whether it is stealing gargen gnomes, shoplifting. or even murder. what makes you do the small things that you claim to grew out of as a kid that you dont do not. Becasue your brain has finaly mutured enough to compleatly understand.
I am not saying drinking a bear is the same as murder you dumb bellybutton I am saying it
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and the point you completly miss either on purpose because you don't want to lose, or because your to obtuse or in dream land to get is.
Stealing minor **** as a kid is one thing. Or minor vandalisation etc done as a kid is one thing. Yes most grow out of it. Most of us knew it was wrong when we were doing it and didnt think we would get cought.
Murder is a not in the same ball park, hells its not even the same game. It is so bad that normal kids know even when they are 11 that is is so wrong you do not do it.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO GROW UP to know this. THATS the point.
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Originally posted by Engine
Wow, you didn't know right from wrong until 16? What a messed up kid you must've been.
Like Martlet, I had a pretty good idea murder was wrong when I was 11. This is something so amazingly basic, I have a hard time believing that you don't grasp that EVERYONE should understand such a basic concept before their teens. And more importantly, than when murder is committed, at any age, there should be repercussions. Severe repercussions. Like death.
No, im not saying that kids dont know right from wrong at 16 ..heck at age 5 they should have a good idea about that. Im talking about the decision making process.
when you're young you tend to act more on your emotions than on your reasoning skills. Thats why angry kids sometimes do things which are so incredibly stupid. Ive seen 6 year olds angry because their moms are taking them away from the mcdonalds playplace because they have to go home..and some of them kids are SO pissed they go berserk..on their own moms.
Thats the kind of thing im talking about. Some kids grow up without what you would call a 'firm hand' (discipline) or have little or no parental guidance to help them learn the difference between an impulse and actually doing something...or both.
That kid shot the driver... he probably didnt think much about the consequences of his actions. Should he go to jail? YES. Should he be executed? Not in my view.. even if the crime he commited was that horrible. We should draw a line between those who kill knowing full well what they are doing and those who kill without knowing what they're doing ...and kids fall in that category.
A shame to see the driver's family in pain and the kid's life ruined. :(
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I owned a handgun when I was 9 years old. Most of the kids I knew owned or had access to guns byu the time they were 14.
A few kids had accidents with guns... none were punished by the law. If a 14 year old then killed someone the rest of us would have expected for him to die by the law.
If he didn't we would pretty much figure we were immune also.
lazs
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The kid should just get 50 years. In maximum security.
He'll come out at age 64 with no real life and during those 50 years he'll realize what he did was wrong in every way.
Honestly, now a days, are parents teaching their kids whats wrong and whats not? Or just leaving it up to the schools which pamper them and don't know how to discipline?
The kid was an A B student? Heck, just toss him in the desert.
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I dont think either one of us will ever agree on this so i will leave it at this last port.
You keep saying saying that vandalism, stealing and anything else you did as a child that. You would not do now. you grew out of. So does that mean if you knew right from wrong.
Then why did you stop doing those things??? did it just get boring and you went onto bigger and better things?, or did you grow up enough to know better.
If you were caught. Should you be treated as an adult at that time a harden criminal. and not as a child..
You keep saying that they are not the same. I agree that they are not the same in degrees of violence. but they are the same for the reason you felt like you should do them then. you knew better, but you still did them. you did not think...
But know better now. you can think things through, you know that violence is wrong not just because it is against the law. or that you may get caught. But because you know how it effects the people around you, and the families of the victims.
We will never see eye to eye on how children think, and how we should treat them when they mess up.
Think as a child they can
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No... stealing and vandalism at the age of 14 is the same but... a slap on the wrist might help. Murder is murder.
I don't see why you don't want to just put sociopaths and child molesters (people who can't be cured) out of their misery with a quite overdose.
Instead... you "humane" types suggest everything from letting the predetors loose on society to tortureing them for 50 years... your "humanity" makes me want to puke.
lazs
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Yeah. Just let them go. They'll grow out of being murderers.
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I hope you dont have kids trell, I can just see this...
"Trell your son (11) just tried to rape my little girl(8)!!"
"oh dont worry Jane, he just doesnt know right from wrong all that well, and I am sure in a few years will mature enough to not do this anymore, in the mean time we should just slap him on the wrist and not really punish him, its not his fault"
Your right though we won't see eye to eye on this. Mostly cause yours are closed.
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lazs, i aint the same person i was at 11 or 14 or 16. not even CLOSE to it.
the kid made one huge bellybutton mistake. and he'll have to live with it the rest of his life.
i find it disturbing that you are willing to allow the government to kill a child just because you think he'll still be the same person when he grows up.
granted, prision aint the best place to grow up, a better system should be in place for minors.
I think that an adult in prision for whatever crime has a far, FAR less 'chance' of being rehabilitated into society than a kid does. They are set in their ways. A kid has yet to set them.
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oio.... I aint the same person I was at 25.... not by a long shot.
what is your point?
lazs
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OIO
Just because he has some growing up to do, he gets a free pass for murder?
I am notgoing to be the same at 60 as I am now can I get one too?
There are penalties for braking the law, how much growing up you have to do should not be a factor when you take a life and ruin 3 others.
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Originally posted by Trell
pass laws to gas them for making mistakes.
You can stop right there. This "mistake" you speak of was the act of obtaining a weapon, then conciously using it to kill another human being. It wasn't a ****ing "oopsy, i broke the neighbor's window with a baseball", it was murder.
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Originally posted by Habu
Actually the sentence is correct. If you wanted to say was hurt you could change it to
Not one of the 24 students on the bus, who ranged in age from 5 to 17 was hurt.
"None of the 24 students on the bus, ranging in ages from 5 to 17, were hurt."
"ranging in ages from 5 to 17" is an adjectival clause.
That leaves "None of the 24 students on the bus were hurt."
"on the bus" and "of the 24 students" are prepositional phrases.
That leaves "None were hurt." Which is incorrect because "none" is singular.
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Originally posted by Staga
Do they use Zyklon-B when gassing people or is there some other, newer gas for that purpose?
Nope. What they do is force the accused to read fininsh posts from this bbs. That's enough to turn any brain to melted jelly. :rolleyes:
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OIO,
There are quite a few kids out in the world who have no concept of right and wrong. They just know what they want to possess or what they want to do. Anything or anyone that gets in their way must be elliminated from their way. Frankly I've seen kids who would kill you faster than several of the many violent adults I have dealt with. They simply do not care. Some of them also know that they will likely get almost a free ride through the juvinile system and that it just won't count when they turn 18.
There are predators in this society and they do not get that way at 18 years of age. Some are born psychopaths, some are created or simply chose to be that way. For those kids who don't care about anyone or anything, there is likely not going to be any change as they age.
Keeping these kids in a juvinile facility isn't going to make them better kids. They will simply get older and their regret will be for getting caught, not for what they did. It will protect society from their predation, for a while.
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Bad trell, bad!
We didn't commit crimes as kids because we didn't know they were wrong. We commited them because we didn't think we could get caught.
We knew full well that what we were doing was illegal. Should we have less of a punishment because we believe we wouldn't get caught?
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The only thing I have against the death penalty as it is practiced now is that we do not do it by public hanging.
If we think that it is improper to do it publically, it probably should not be done.
And hanging should be the preferred method of execution. Hanging does not poison or burn the body and parts can be harvested. A rope and gallows can be used over and over again and can be made from recycled material. A strong rope can be fashioned from organically grown hemp. No poisons or greenhouse gasses are realeased into the environment.
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Just some info:
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/teenbrain.cfm
Teens are not equal to adults generally...............
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I do agree Holden. The death penalty isn't used enough, nor is it public enough.
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I would find some of the B.S. that floats around here amusing were it not for the fact that it is dangerous to society as a whole.
First, you simply cannot equate general juvenile delinquency (joy riding, under age drinking, shop lifting, and vandalism) with murder (defined as homicide committed with malice and forethought) committed by a juvenile. It simply is not the same thing. It's no more the same in juveniles than it is in adults.
Second, you cannot make the assumption that trying a juvenile in an adult court, and making them eligible for the death penalty is wrong on the basis of maturity or the lack thereof. Maturity must be judged on a case by case individual basis.
Third, the willingness to commit murder shows a lacking of the necessary conscience required to function in society (with some notable exceptions). There is no other way to look at the act of murder. Regardless of age, race, sex, religion, or any other factor, those willing to commit murder do not belong in a free society, ever, period.
The boy in question did not shoot that woman in a fit of rage, unable ot control his emotions. He went and found a gun, lay in wait, and shot the woman basically in ambush. This "boy" acted with malice and forethought, and murdered another human being. And that woman is dead. She is no less dead because her killer was a teenager. And he is no less a murderer because he is a teenager. This "boy" is a cold blooded killer and lacks the conscience to exist in society. It is that simple. As far as I'm concerned, his actions make him eligible for trial as an adult, and execution at the convenience of the state when found guilty.
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Well said Virg!
And Exactly what I was trying say.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I do agree Holden. The death penalty isn't used enough, nor is it public enough.
That is why the argument against the death penalty as a deterrent is not really valid. Today the death penalty is to rare and too watered down to be the deterrent we need and should have.
It is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent man be punished, no doubt. That is beyond dispute.
However, twenty years or more of appeals followed by a sanitized private euthanization removes the teeth from the death penalty. The appeals process needs to be streamlined. Not by removing appeals, but by expediting the process. There simply isn't an excuse for each hearing to be held YEARS apart. Months is more like it. Then, the executions need to be public. And not nearly so sanitary.
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On the bright side, a life sentence without parole served by a 15 or 17 year old is gonna be a loong loong time, just hope these yutzes on the Supreme Court dont get the idea to give these lil' darlings counseling for their traumatized psyches and nothing but!
Hmm, does this mean we can shoot to kill whenever we see a teenager, since the law of the land is now that they are inherently out-of-control?
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"And he won't get the death penaly for this?"
nope.
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Every human (kid or an adult) should know that every action brings consequences. Every human should know that certain actions will bring very severe conseqiences. Eventually its the fright to be punished that discourages ppl to do certain things regardless how badly they want to do it. So dont mix it with election and tobacco/alcohole stuff (the reason why its not allowed for kids is because they dont have enough info on those yet to decide by themselves).
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I don't know how some can say that because a person who is not considered an adult legally shouldn't be tried as an adult. It depends on the person. Many teenagers are very capable of thinking rationally and making decisions for themselves.
I went to school with 3 guys that committed premeditated murder, killing Jamie Michelle Faris. They were all around 16 years old at the time of the murder(Roy Corbett, Paul Hennis and Kevin Fornei). They planned the murder for weeks before going through with it. Kevin figured the whole thing was a joke and it was the drugs talking. They planned to take her to Pauls Grandparents barn and kill here there with a bat. That bat just happen to belong to another friend of mine that I played ball with. They had borrowed it a week prior. My friend thought nothing of it because both Roy and Kevin use to play ball. Needless to say Roy and Paul killed her and took her to Hopland grade where they planned to push her off the side in her car to make it look like an accident.
I'm sorry but 16 or not they knew what they were doing and deserved the death penalty. Unfortunately Roy and Paul just got 25 years to Life. Kevin got placed in juvenile hall until he was 18 and then was transferred to a prison till his 25th birthday. Kevin had stormed out of the barn when they first started to kill Jaime. He received a reduced sentence for his involvement.
I guess if something like this never happenend close to home then you just may think differently on the subject. They should atleast be checked out to see if they should stand trial as an adult. Some folks may not be capable of comprehending things at that age but alot of them can. With rulings like this now any kid whether they are sane or not can committ murder and get a slap on the hand.
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And one of the two snipers who terrorized the Washington area and calculatingly murdered many people likely will be spared because he was under 18 at the time.
Deeds have consequences. Doesn't matter the age or the so-called mental state. Varying degrees of guilt (e.g., first degree, manslaughter, premeditated, accidental, etc.) can be applied to all ages and mental states, and commensurate penalties can be applied, including death for first degree premeditated murder.
Society should not be obligated to reward murderers with free room and board the rest of their lives. Or worse yet, parole them after x years for whatever excuse.
If judged that they killed intentionally and without justification, they forfeit their right to existence. Simple. Justice.
Yes, by all means BE SURE the culprit is guilty. Then execute him or her. Quickly and without remorse. Remove the evil from society. Law-abiding citizens deserve no less.
I still remember a blatant murder years ago in Indiana. We were friends with a farm family. The husband was a jerk, the wife was wonderful.
Apparently she had decided to leave him. While she was filling her car's gas tank one day in town, he drove up, emptied his pistol into her, killed her, got a life sentence, and in his later years was paroled.
That is not justice. That is no deterrent to murder. The consequences are too long, too easy, and too unfair to the victim's daughter, friends, and community.
Kid shoots and kills his school bus driver? Execute him. Soon.
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Anyone ever google David Kyle Gilley, as I suggested?
You really should, especially before you make foolish
statements about juvenile criminals.
You'll find that scumbag SOB to be the PERFECT example
of the "juvenile" perp, and why the Supreme Court is
WRONG. The state is NOT pursuing the death penalty
on this one, but they should.
In particular, note that not only did he commit murder,
(anyone familiar with the crime, the criminal, and the victim,
knows who did it) but his behavior continued long
afterwards. Several young women were attacked.
We all knew who killed Laura back in 1984, but a rape
the SOB committed but got away with tainted some evidence.
(Of note, he did rape the girl in question, her family just
forced her to drop the charges, and the evidence collected
in the investigation became tainted after that).
Another point of note, is that several of us who were
between 17 and 21 at the time considered dealing
with him ourselves. However, we knew that would
be wrong, at least in the eyes of the law.
We waited 17 YEARS for them to be able to make the
case stick. We've waited ANOTHER FOUR YEARS for the
courts to try the case, but his legal maneuvering has
kept him out of jail and out of prison. This case has
been before the state Supreme Court THREE TIMES,
and he has never even been tried yet. He's even tried
to get the case moved to Juvenile Court because he
was 6 weeks short of his 18th birthday when he did it.
We now wait on the THIRD ruling of the state Supreme
Court to get the trial under way. The victim's mother
was not only my English teacher my senior year, this
year she is my daughter's English teacher. That's right,
the SOB has been free long enough after killing Laura
that I have a daughter nearly as old as he was when
he killed her. Justice delayed is justice denied, and the
delays continue. But he's guilty, and I'm patient. I'll see
him do the time. I will be there when they try him.
I often wonder if it is hard for Laura's mom to have my
daughter in her class, knowing that I knew both her
and her daughter well. Especially since my daughter's
name, is Laura. Not after Laura Salmon, my wife picked
the name and she never knew Laura Salmon.
I think I'll stop by Laura's grave today, it's been a while.
She's buried just a few feet from my wife's grandfather.
I may wait and take my daughter later this weekend. She
took AP English to go to college. She wants to be a lawyer.
Actually she wants to be a prosecuting attorney. Soon she'll
tell Laura Salmon's mom that, and thank her for being the
great teacher she is, and has been.
Kyle Gilley has now been a free man longer than Laura
Salmon was alive. He will not be executed for his crimes.
But he will eventually do the time.
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Oh, and last night, on the local news, they said the "boy" who killed the bus driver, now claims he intended to shoot himself, and shot the bus driver by accident.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Trell
What other group of people in this country. could we make sure are not alowed to vote, yet. pass laws to gas them for making mistakes. and claim they are not responisible to have rights the right to vote. and chose what they believe is right, but claim they know whats right when they do somehting wrong.
Answer: Convicted Felones...and apparantly this "child" was more than willing to join their ranks when he took another life
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prove that they are guilty beyind any reasonable doubt and then put the poor sick bastards out of their misery...
All this talk of torturing em for a bunch of years and then turning em loose to prey on society seems really strange to me.
lazs
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What lazs said.
Rape & Murder, suspect incontrovertibly proved guilty = death. Not in years. Months.