Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: oboe on March 04, 2005, 04:15:02 PM
-
Not sure if anyone else has run into this, but since I had a skin declined for being objectionable, I thought it might help to have some discussion on the matter. I don't recall any previous discussions (beyond whether swastikas were allowable or not, and that issue has been clearly settled in my mind anyway).
The skin in question is George Laven's "Itsy Bitsy II", and the offensive nature of it should be obvious from the inset in the lower left corner of the screenshot below:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/81_1109969274_itsybitsyii_promo2.jpg)
Close inspection reveals that the hand is actually facing palm out, which is a pretty goofy way to flip someone the bird but I think the meaning of the gesture still comes across.
I'm a poor judge because there is very little WWII era noseart that I find offensive. Its all just history to me - these were young men in life and death situations and I consider the risque artwork to be a way to blow off steam. Skuzzy's email said the skin could be approved if I removed the finger and changed it into a fist, which I started to do, but didn't feel right about. That young pilot painted that image on his plane and then risked his life and limb in it for his country. I couldn't bring myself to knowingly misrepresent his aircraft just so I could have another skin in the game. As a skinner I take pains to make as accurate a representation of my subject as possible.
How do you guys feel about offensive skins, and 'toning' them down to make them acceptable?
After some research, I found some other skins which I think HTC might find objectionable:
Phillip Goldstein's "Jew Boy", which could be interpreted as a racial or religious slur:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/81_1109969238_p-38-jew-boy.jpg)
Or "Big bellybutton Bird II", with its obvious profanity:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/81_1109969103_p-47-big-ass-bird.jpg)
And maybe some figures of completely naked women are unacceptable as well, e.g. the large scale reclining nude on the P-39 "Air-a-Cutie":
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/81_1109977312_airacutie.jpg)
(Assuming we get a P-39 someday :) ) Though I think Kev367 has Spitfire in game that does depict a naked woman.
I never really thought about it before, but I've decided my feeling is its better to be true to the skin than to revise it for the game's sake. If that means it's too offensive to put in the game, then so be it.
PS - this is a real disappointment for me, as I believe its possible I'm related (though distantly) to the pilot. Also the unusual locations of the black patches on the nacelles and the black nose make it a very distinctive P-38. I've never seen this scheme before. It really grew on me as I worked on it, which is probably why I never thought about whether it would be too offensive for the game. From what I learned of the pilot through email conversations with his nephew, he is probably just as happy now knowing his paint job is still getting people in trouble!
All.
-
if that is offensive, i wouldnt change it.
hmm...thought about something, mama said if you dont have anything good to say, then dont say anything at all.
-
Your mama gave you some good advice, but I'm not sure I take your meaning. It sounds like you agree that skins should be kept strictly historical, and if deemed offensive then they just shouldn't be in the game?
btw - does anyone know if "Itsy Bitsy II's" scheme is truly unique?
Maybe he had a squad mate with a less offensive skin that I could modify Itsy Bitsy into?
Also, I have no intention of ranting against HTC. This is their game and entirely their call. The skin submission guidelines don't say much about objectionable elements in skins, though, so it might be beneficial if we can come to some sort of mutual understanding within the skinning community...
-
I'm not offended by those skins at all. I'm even a little annoyed at HT for turning them away.
Besides, I think Itsy Bitsy sums up a lot of feelings in this game quite nicely.
-
There really is no point in discussing this. Common sense dictates what is acceptable.
We are all for historical accuracy, but we have to balance that with today's realities. It is a game. It is no longer 1944.
If the skinner choses to make modifications to a skin to make it acceptable, then that is fine. If they do not wish to do so, then that is fine as well.
-
oh boy!
only in america, as they say
-
I really appreciate what all the skinners do here. Even the ones that I'm about to name. I see though this is about being politically correct. I myself have absolutely no problem with anything that was painted on WWII era aircraft. I actually wish we could still have that same kind of personal touch to our current military airframes.
In Oboes defense that nose art can't be nearly as offensive as some that are already depicted in the game. We are trying to be politically correct and I can understand that but how can it be a one way street? A hand that is giving the bird is no more offensive in many cases then the aircraft I'm going to list below. I don't have a problem with these airframes nor their nose art but which would be considered more offensive in our current society, the finger or nudity. It really depends on the person and for some their parents. Even if it were changed to 2 fingers up would it indicate peace or would it be the British version of the finger? Guess it would depend on just exactly who was looking at it.
I'd just like to say I appreciate what the following skinners have done for this game. I'm not trying to get your skins removed by any means. You all have worked way to hard for the rest of the community. Here are the airframes we have depicting nudity.
Spitfire Mk V: 410FS/RCAF by Kev367th.
B-24Js: 11BG/431BS by United. 43BG/64BS by Waffle. 446BG/705BS by Greenbo. 90BG/319BS by Greenbo.
So where do we draw the line?
-
Oboe, i was agreeing with you. just felt it best not to rant because HTC would frown upon it and probably edit my post, i see skuzzy has already stopped by.
i just think it is sad what society has come too. it is fine to virtually kill somebody, but not to have a picture of a middle finger...oh well. i deal with enough of the "politically correct" crap at work ( im in the Navy), just hate to see it on the game i play away from work i guess.
great job on the skins regardless, keep it up!!:aok :aok
-
it's not about "offensive" "art" per se, but rather about legalities involved with european countries when it comes to displaying nazi symbols.
it's that simple. if they changed their laws, then HTC would more than likely allow submissions of such symbols in their historical context.
-
skane, i understand that, but go back and look at the original post, with the pic a P38, not a LW plane. it has a middle finger painted on it, not a swastika.
-
oh, my bad for skimming the post.
hmmm, yeah, don't see why HTC would turn it down since it's even on a commercialized 1/32 scale model, which is beside the point anyway.
boo on HTC on this decision! for one thing, no one forces you to chose that skin if you find it offensive, and secondly it's way too small to be seen by someone you're engaged with.
-
Looking at it isn't it actually more of a 'number 1' finger as opposed to the bird.
-
Kev I've looked around and some of the decals look as if it's the middle finger and some look like it's saying number one.
-
Yes, I think the swastika issue has been settled quite clearly in the past. And the purpose of this thread is by no means to cry foul or to whine about having a skin declined. As I say, I'm disappointed, but I believe I understand HTC's position and cannot fault them for it.
Skuzzy's remark about common sense dictating what is acceptable zeroes in perfectly on the issue (thanks, Skuzzy). What happened to my common sense that I should have submitted such a skin? And why have no posters here also agreed with HTC that this skin is objectionable? It seems to me that we must not have a "common" sense about this, then, and that is really what I'm trying to get us to express opinions on.
What do you guys think about some of the examples I posted above? Truly, the only one I would've had a concern about is "Jew Boy" because I'm not sure everyone would understand the defiance in the pilot's sentiment as he had it painted on his plane. I'd be concerned some people might think of it as a slam against Jewish people. But what do you guys think?
Also, what do you as skinners think about making changes to a skin to 'tone' it down? Skuzzy indicates that this would be acceptable to HTC, but should "Big bellybutton Bird II" become simply "Big Bird II"? Personally that thought makes me shudder more than reading the profanity on the plane, but what about you guys? Or is "Ass" not objectionable? Honestly, I do not know...or, I mean, I would've thought it's not, but now I'm not sure.
I think we should talk about this so that we do in fact develop "common" sense about it. That's all I'm saying. I'm not disagreeing with HTC that objectionable skins should not be in the game, I'm just wondering if we all really have the same sense of what is objectionable.
If we don't, it might be helpful to include a bullet point in the 'Basic Guidelines' skin submission sticky that gives skinners examples of objectionable elements. Currently only the swastika is listed as prohibited.
all!
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
Kev I've looked around and some of the decals look as if it's the middle finger and some look like it's saying number one.
Cobra, if you can show me the decal set that shows it's the index finger extended and not the middle finger I would really appreciate it. The decal set I went from clearly showed the middle finger extended, but that gesture really makes no sense with the 'palm outward' orientation of the hand. An index finger extended upward makes more sense, and would certainly change the sentiment of the gesture about 100%!
In fact, if your version turns out to be the real one, that makes my skin submission one of the funniest mistakes I ever been involved with!
-
Oboe the one model plane I found isn't super definitive about the middle finger. Because of the angle and the shadow area on the palm it looks as if there is no index finger. That would have made me believe that it was in fact saying number one. Problem is there is more photos of a similiar model aircraft with a definite middle and index finger. Maybe Guppy has some photos hidden somewhere that could clear it up.
-
Those of you playing the 'politically correct' card can stop now. It has zero to do with PC. I hate that term. Everytime someone tries to do what may be construed as something decent they get tagged with it.
Just because you do not like the decision does not make it something that was done out of political reasons. Sheesh. Believe it or not, there are people who could care less about politics and you are talking to one of them. If you cannot see it from anyother perspective, then you are being very myopic.
Oboe, I have no problems at all with your work or the work of any of the skinners. We have a social reality to deal with. It is that simple. Trying to make anything more than that is just a waste of energy.
All this thread is going to do is allow some people a chance to say something negative about HTC. Not to mention the time I will have to waste on it.
The times, the tolerances, and the attitudes have changed since WW2.
I am done with this.
-
Cobra412: Hope so. I would really appreciate knowing. I modified my example and drew it as an extended index finger rather than the middle finger, and it does look more natural and correct than a palm-outward middle finger salute. I just don't know how somebody could make such a gross error though?
Guppy if you're out there with photos of Itsy Bitsy II please pop in and help!
Skuzzy: Thank you, sir. I am not upset with HTC and apart from Shane's "boo" and killnu's threatened rant I'm not sensing any real anti-HTC sentiment. As a group I think the skinners deeply appreciate what AH2 offers with custom skinning and are big supporters of your efforts. I was hoping for some thoughtful and level-headed discussion on the examples I put forth, because as I said it seems to me we really do lack a "common" sense about what might be deemed objectionable.
But, while on this BB I consider myself a guest in your house, so given your position I think it would rude to continue further.
Guppy if you're out there with photos that could resolve the Itsy Bitsy II situation, please post some (separate thread though).
Thanks!
-
Maybe saying PC was the wrong set of words. Not that it matters but I still don't see how nudity is okie dokie but a middle finger is not.
-
oboe,
I think the hand graphic is suppose to be the index finger and thumb pointing up as in indicating a small distance ala "Itsy Bitsy."
-
Cobra412 - My Spit V, I was lucky, by putting more exhaust stain on I was able to make the 'boobies' almost obscure. Just pure luck that thats where they were on the original aircraft.
I seem to remember asking Skuzzy about that one as I wasn't sure and was told it was a "case by case" basis, so I sent it in and crossed my fingers.
Had to call them on a few ones, one of my Spit 9s "Spirit of Kent" is actaully a Spit 7, but by DDay they had all had their pointy wing tips removed (thanks Dan).
If your not sure you can always fire them an email of the noseart prior to starting and save some time.
-
sorry skuzzy, but at work, this would fall under PC. i also hate the term(working with women is a job in itself). guess the US navy has institutionalized me somewhat. my apologies.
-
Originally posted by oboe
Guppy if you're out there with photos that could resolve the Itsy Bitsy II situation, please post some (separate thread though).
Thanks!
See Itsy Bitsy hand graphic thread for my explaination of the hand gesture.
Dan
-
Originally posted by oboe
Your mama gave you some good advice, but I'm not sure I take your meaning. It sounds like you agree that skins should be kept strictly historical, and if deemed offensive then they just shouldn't be in the game?
btw - does anyone know if "Itsy Bitsy II's" scheme is truly unique?
Maybe he had a squad mate with a less offensive skin that I could modify Itsy Bitsy into?
Also, I have no intention of ranting against HTC. This is their game and entirely their call. The skin submission guidelines don't say much about objectionable elements in skins, though, so it might be beneficial if we can come to some sort of mutual understanding within the skinning community...
Itsy Bitsy II is unique. The black areas covered places where the Lightning had been hit by flak etc. Laven was flying as Exec of the 49th FG so he had some leeway in his paint job.
If the 49th History is to be believed, Laven was very demanding and definately all fighter pilot. It got so bad that some of the ground crews refused to service his bird. They had to find a Crew Chief who would go toe to toe with Laven. They did apparently when they assigned Sgt. D.C. Todd to Laven.
Quoting the 49th History "Todd was one of Linquyan's most notorious operators. The sergeant was a boot legger, ****-fight bookie and suspected fence on the black market in Luzon. He would have been court martialed except that he was too damn good at his work"
Laven was intent on getting his fifth kill to reach ace status, having claimed 4 Japanese planes earlier in the Aleutians. On a mission he finally got his kill, an Emily flying boat, but there was some debate whether it was airborne or on the water. Todd, after reading the combat report, painted the silhouette of a PBY on Itsy-Bitsy II, that nearly lead to blows between he and Laven.
Needless to say, the George Laven story is one I wish someone would write :)
Image is crew chief Todd. Note the trains and nose art on Itsy Bitsy II
Dan
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1110013856_todd.jpg)
-
If it flew in WW2 and is therefore a historical skin it should be allowed....lol "Jewboy" must have had a serious set of balls!!! Imagine the LW after action reports!!
-
Guys, what it comes down to is NOT HTC's sensibilities or non-sensibilities. It is the world we currently live in. This game has to abide by the laws of every country it is sold in, as well as the moral and ethical standards of that location, so as not to be sued/investigated. HTC is not being "PC" by denying these things, what they are doing is covering their collective tulips so someone doesn't come by and try to shut them down. This is the nature of the world we currently live in. When you have a commercial item in the hands of the public, you now have to be cognizant of every person that could possibly be out there, and minimize as many risks to yourself as possible, and that is what they are doing here.
Do I wish these things could be allowed? Yes. But not at the risk or cost of HTC and the time and effort they put into this game for our enjoyment.
-
not being "PC"
can call it whatever you want. all the "today sensiblilities", "social realities", whatever you want to label it as...is what i work with everyday, and i know what we call it(well, we call it a few things actually :) ).
besides, this is all beside the point anyways, this topic has been "done with". HTC fealt they did what was necessary and that is thier decsion to make. i can respect that. Skinners, keep up the good work!! you guys are amazing.
-
You guys might want to pop over to the Itsy Bitsy hand graphic thread - Guppy's explanation of the hand gesture (it's not "flipping the bird") is amazing. Turns out its a gesture given to screwups called the 'rigid digit'. Definitely not an 'FU'.
-
i know. i think dan is amazing. i think he has every air combat history book ever made and then some.
-
I wonder if anyone from HTC will chime in with this new development.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Those of you playing the 'politically correct' card can stop now. It has zero to do with PC. I hate that term. Everytime someone tries to do what may be construed as something decent they get tagged with it.
Just because you do not like the decision does not make it something that was done out of political reasons. Sheesh. Believe it or not, there are people who could care less about politics and you are talking to one of them. If you cannot see it from anyother perspective, then you are being very myopic.
Oboe, I have no problems at all with your work or the work of any of the skinners. We have a social reality to deal with. It is that simple. Trying to make anything more than that is just a waste of energy.
All this thread is going to do is allow some people a chance to say something negative about HTC. Not to mention the time I will have to waste on it.
The times, the tolerances, and the attitudes have changed since WW2.
I am done with this.
Skuzzy,
I think politically correct is sort of a vague term, and is used to cover a broad spectrum of topics. I don't think you should take it as a personal affront, I'm sure it was not intended as such.
I suppose I can understand the position HTC is in, and since I like the game I'll have to live with it. But that does not mean I have to like it. That is NOT a remark that is negative towards HTC, and I don't think anyone here is being negative towards HTC anyway, they're just expressing disdain for the current "social climate".
Honestly, it (the decision on the skins)ranks up there with the decision to take the lovely ladies off of the Snap On calenders. I understand it, but I hate to see anyone cave to "that pressure".
I guess when you consider that minor children play this game, it stands to reason that some might find certain noseart to be offensive.
However, I see the potential for a solution. Since there is an option to disable skins, why not simply add an option to disable certain skins?
We could have two classes of skins. One class that is universally acceptable. A second class that is "possibly offensive to some". You could have class 2 skins disabled by default, and it would be a user option to enable them. Call them "skins rated G" and "skins rated R", and the R rated skins are disabled by default, and a warning message could be made stating that you enable R rated historic skins at your own risk, and you may be offended by them. I realize it is an added amount of work for HTC, but maybe it's worth it. After all, to the hardcore long term player, it isn't just a game, it's history as well, and history we find important.