Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Nikoli on February 17, 2000, 03:01:00 PM
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Would like to see some posts from people regarding wingman tactics. Some of the most effective (and most fun) sorties I've flown have been with pilots like Redstar who seem to have an almost intuitive understanding of wingman positioning and tactics.
If anyone has any links to any historical info regarding distances for combat spreads and basic maneuvers in 2 on 1 and 2 on 2+ situations, please post. I think it would be of interest to most pilots.
--Nik
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I've always held the team of Gentile and Godfrey as the end all of wingman. My feelings I'm sure are at least half patriotism in that those two were are American.
Here you can read up on them:
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/resource/wingman.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/resource/wingman.html)
and the 4th FG escort tactics.
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/squadron/esc_tac.htm (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/squadron/esc_tac.htm)
This is a fantasticly put togther website by none other than the 4tg FG from Warbirds. My hat goes off to them.
-Westy
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Check out http://www3.imagiconline.com/training/worr-wingman.html (http://www3.imagiconline.com/training/worr-wingman.html)
Also, try to find a wingy you "gel" with. My squade mate Vila and I work very well together we have found, even with slightly different aircraft. We don't neet to talk about our wing tactics much.. we just do it. That said, I'm sure we could be much better if we actually tried to follow some planned tactics. If you can learn to fly basic loose duece and learn brackets, you will be amazed at the kills you can produce from these alone.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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I don't have any links for ya Nik but I wanted to say this. When I fly with you or anyone else that normaly on my wing,I look at it like this...It is not always the manuvers that are done between the two wingmen,although they very important. I believe that the key to wingman tactics is to be able to know where you wingman is at ALL times, situational awareness. Also to be able to correct you flight path to cover your wingman in a moments notice, which brings me to spacing. Now in real life I am sure thing where a lot different. But here in the Aces High arena I believe that if you stay with in 3.0k of your wingman at any given time then the two of you have a good chance of coming out of the fight alive. I hope this answers some questions you or others may have. Sorry if I began to ramble a bit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
RedStar
The Wrecking Crew
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One thing to add RedStar:
Yes, about D3.0 spacing is a good spread for a wing pair in combat area. I suggest the lead be lower than the wingman however. Even in a loose duece you should start out with a leader, and the wingman needs to have enough altitude over the leader to dive and get to him to clear his six when he is in danger. If you are both at the same altitude, the wingman often can't get there in time to save his leader.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Lephturn --
Good point on the altitude differentials between wingmen. Care to take a moment and briefly describe loose duece and the execution of a bracket maneuver?
--Nik
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In addition to Leph's comments, I prefer an co-alt separation of about D 2.0, once I dive on a target (assuming I have alt advantage) I tell my wingy to count 5 seconds and then follow my dive, this does 2 things:
A) Allows wingman to 'clean up' on target, assuming target has taken a defensive measure when he's noticed he's been jumped.
B) Allows me to have my six cleared when wingman finishes his climb out from target.
I think it's most important to have an area designated for a safe haven, i.e. call out something like "OUT NORTH" so that if both you both get real busy, you know where you wingman will be incase you are draggin and need help. Using .wingman command is a must, it will allow you to 'find' your wingman on the map (white dot) in case you get separated. Separation in a furball is inevitable im most cases, discussing a climbout point prior to entry will keep you alive alot longer. So will Roger Wilco!
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/lrg0004.jpg)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-18-2000).]
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Redstar and Corn showed me a variation on the usual distance separation. Lining up nose to tail, we zoomed and boomed on the targets with very little separation. No one really wasted any E in a turn fight, since there usually wasn't much of the enemy left by the time the second and third pilot made their pass.
RW was a must for this tactic, but it was incredibly effective.
--Nik
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To me the 2 most important issues in developing a good team are the following:
1) identifying the lead dog, often people confuse the differance between to buddies flying togeather and actually flying as wingmen. In WW2 the germans had a name for a wingman and every leading Ace had one. His job was to protect his boss from lapses in SA in a dog fight and protect him if he got in to deep.
2) developing fundemental agreement on tactics. I'm overly inclined to T&B and I tend to fly into bad odds as a matter of course...poor habits for a leader unless we both have a death wish. However I've also fallen in with many folks by lot...Dingy and Hangtime recently where i've filled the #2 slot purely by chance...broken up attacks on there 6 picked up crumbs etc. Without clearly defined tactics and defined rolls your really just 2 guys flying togeather...fun YES...wingmen ...nope
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Nik,
A loose duece is a veriation on a winged pair, first used in Vietnam I believe. This method involves a switching of the leader and wingman rolls as the situation develops. In other words if you and I are flying wing together, I may be initally in the lead, however when the situation changes such that you are in a better position to attack the we would seemlessly switch roles and you would be the leader and I would cover. This is a less formal method (loose) than the welded pair and is therefore more flexable. Becareful with this method though, as without good communication it is easy to find that you both thought yourself to be in the best position and both wind up in the "lead" and noone covering, especially in a multi bogie environment.
A bracket is just a winged pair splitting while approuching the merge on a single con. By one fighter sliding to the left of the incoming bandit and the other sliding to the right, the bandit is forced to commit to one or the other or to disengage. If he commits to one of the fighters he immediatly gives the other pilot a huge angle advantage. This method can also be used 2 vs 2 but is less effective in that the 2 vs 2 usually breaks up into two 1 vs 1 engagements. However two effective wingmen can still cover one another while engaging their own bandit.
Hope this helps
Sharky
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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Sharky's got the ticket about Loose Duece. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, there is one more reason for the wingman to be at a higher alt than the leader. You don't always have to bracket horizontally... you can bracket vertically as well. If the wingmen are D2-D3 apart and one is higher than the other, you can easily bracket a lone bogey in both the verticle and the horizontal at the same time. This is very deady... the contact has nowhere he can go without turning his six to one or both bad guys.
Ripsnort, the only thing with a co-alt separation is that the wingman will not have any extra E. When flying formation or even following another plane, the leader can't go full throttle or the wingman WILL be left behind. The only way to avoid this and give the wingman enough extra E to be able to quickly clear the lead's 6 at any time, is to start the engagement with the wingman a bit higher. When something goes wrong and it hits the fan, I want my wingy to have the extra E to clear me very quickly, and I can tell you from experience that if you are co-alt to start with, my wingy can't always get there. I've watched my lead get exploded for the same reason. Sure, i killed the bogey 5 seconds later, but if I'd had a bit more E at the start, I could have caught him and maybe saved his bacon.
One solution my wingy and I have to this is different plane types. I fly the F4U-1D, and he is a Pony driver. His ride climbs better than mine, is faster, etc. etc. This means that when we go hunting, I lead and he is my wing. With his better climb, acceleration, and speed, he can always get to me if he needs to. We still use Loose Duece and are very flexible with it, but we have to sweat the details less because of the different plane types.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Read Shaw's "Fighter Combat" for the dope on horizontal seperation. You have a "cone" behind you in which you can't see a bandit. Choose a separation so that your cone overlaps that of your wingman's at about twice guns range.
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Check out the Flight School pages on the Phoenix Squadron website at www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm (http://www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm)
A bit of useful information there on wingman offensive and defensive maneuvers.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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I think the biggest mistake I see people making regarding wingmen is their basic style.
Usually this is where the cover element stubbornly sticks to a close formation style of "wingmen", performs the same manuevers as the lead element, and never leaves his close proximity.
This was the concept back in the pre-war and early-war days of WWII, and it proved ineffective and even deadly.
I agree with the guys above, the "loose duece" concept where one guy attacks and the other stays in a advantageous position, and where you regularly switch "lead" and "cover" at need, is extremely effective.
Of course it takes alot more skill and practice. But once you have it down, 2 pilots can easily fight off 2-3 times their number if they fly it right.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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This may not work for everyone but it does for Jackel and myself. Jackels skill as a dogfighter is far better than mine so Ill follow him to a bogey, once spotted if low I sit up high and watch not only my wing mate but also to guard against being jumped from above. If jackel looks like hes introuble Im high enough to dive down and assist, if he gets the kill Im high enough to cover while he climbs back up to altitude. I usually have my best runs this way. Most everyone gets target fixation and goes after jackel they never pay attention to me. We have done this for quite some time now and are getting very good at it. it does take timeing to know when to drop down and help.
The most important thing is to watch the range indicators they will give you the idea who is chaseing who and how fast the closer is by watching the dots or planes, I try to stay within range of seeing the plane shapes not dots.
Wingman tactics depend on ou and your wingy and need to be set up by you and him. The timeing and lead need to be set up before you start. Any method you want to use will work if properly set up.
We use the book of Shaw exclusively and it works.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Here's how I like to do it with my squad. If usually seems to work quite well when everyone gets used to what they are supposed to do. I'm not sure I want to post this because I would hate to have to fly against it, but what the hey, here goes.
This is not specifically a wingman tactic because it can also be used by a squad of three or four. Basically we start with the rule that you want to stay within d6.0 of each other on the icon. When the distance is getting close to that you turn towards the other plane. Perhaps this distance should be less with only two planes. This usually results in everyone very loosely following each other around in a large circle. Everyone is free to take a run at any con which presents an opportunity. Now what happens is that con will often get passes made on it by one plane after the other giving him little time to recover between evasives. I like to B n Z furballs so when things are going right my squad will be at the top of the furball with a bit of an altitude advantage on everyone else and every once in a while they will dip down to B n Z a plane.
Now the defensive part of the plan works this way. If someone gets a con on their 6 their job is to drag it in a direction that will let a squad member saddle up on the con. Hard break turns and other evasives should only be used if in imminent danger. This does not mean flying directly at a squad member as this gives him no room to turn. Often it means dragging low so the squad member can split s onto the con. Now the free squad members must give first priority to clearing a squad member's 6, second priority goes to clearing other teammates 6 and last priority is offensive attacks. Everyone should try to maintain a fairly high energy state and not get drawn down into the furball as this would put any potential rescuers in danger. This means spending a fair amount of time nose high in a climb or in vertical reversals such as loops and immelmans. If someone does get too low it is better for the rest of the squad to stay high and wish him luck or do their best to provide support from a high position than having the whole squad shot down. There should be a leader designated whose job is to make decisions about when to get out and regroup, or when to get out because of low fuel, etc.
A different strategy that I like with only two wingmen is for one to engage as a stall fighter while the other keeps a little more energy to B n Z. Against a single fighter it is usually only a matter of time before you win unless he is very good. Against two the outcome is less certain but it does challenge their situational awareness by having to watch both a plane turning at their level and one coming down on them from above. The stall fighter should be in a good turning plane and should be the more skillful at that particular style of flying. If engaging two fighters the stall fighter has a difficult job and the B n Zer should try not to take too long between passes. The B n Zer can often set up so he is coming down from directly above repeatedly on a turning fight. This makes tracking planes manovering in the horizontal fairly easy because all he has to do to match their turn is roll. He should keep his speed somewhere around 300mph on the approach so that looping back up again and coming down for a second pass doesn't take too long.
I'm not sure if either of these has a name or falls into one of the other categories. I do know that the first was used historically by squadrons of bf110s which were at a disadvantage singly against most planes because of their slow speed and not wonderful manoverability.
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I disagree with you verm, Gie and I do very well with the close formation wing tactics. In the La-5 we have found that having one high& one low just doesn't work, if you get bounced low you extend and your wingman can't catch up with you. Even with an alt advantage it will be over before you arrive. What we do is basically line astern, with me slightly lower and to the right. When we dive I swing right while he swings left, easy bracket. After I follow him into the zoom and maintain D2k or less, if he picks up a con I let them slide between us and fire, if _I_ pick up a con Gie zooms while I drag. The cons has to pick between the zoomer or myself, if he picks the climber I reverse in a loop and cover Gie, if he picks me.. well, Gie is on the perch and ready to pounce. The only way we get into trouble is if the wingleader starts a crazy T&B or if we get seperated by too much, too much seperation and you are too far away to help in an emergency.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Hmmm.... I seem to remember me and Popeye encountering a pair of La5's coalt at about 25k over f14 a couple of weeks ago. Me in a Pony, Pops in a Spitfire I think.
In fact this was the exact encounter I was thinking of when I wrote my above post.
<shrugs> Maybe we just got lucky.
And I always am a proponent of doing whatever works for you, and your own tactics.
But in this particular encounter, we went "loose duece" splitting apart at the merge and the La5's went tight cover.
If I remember correctly they went for me first, and then we had them bracketed front rear. And even the plane (me initially) that the La5's were attacking could use standard merge , nose to nose, 1 v 1 tactics.
Basically it was fairly easy to dodge both planes because they were so close to one another. Whatever "dodge" manuever worked on one, worked on the other because the second pilot didn't have any more seperation or reaction time.
Then we went into iterations of switching off and going for the "cover man" of the La5 pair. Because the cover man was so tight, he would have to give one of us a shot at his open six, while he was following the lead plane on his attacks.
It was on the second or third "merge" that we finally got the cover man La5, and it was fairly simple 2 v 1 after that.
Just one encounter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and its not definitive proof of either concept. Just saying that in my years of flying, I find the close wing tactics way too restrictive, and a good pilot can use them against you.
Just my opinon and style, if something else works for you, I say use it.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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One more point about "Welded Wing". It does not happen often. However, I have managed to take them BOTH out on one guns firing pass. They were engaging another plane, and I sniped them both.
Mino
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I believe in as close to a line abreast formation as possible. Separation of around 1.5k is okay, but not any further. The most important tactic for me is the bracket, because it can be used in either offense or defense, and it is fairly easy to implement. But most importantly, the bracket is a very decisive maneuver, resulting in a no-win solution for a single attacker.
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Few more articles...
http://www.wlvrn.com/article.shtml?aw_sbwingtac (http://www.wlvrn.com/article.shtml?aw_sbwingtac)
http://www.wlvrn.com/article.shtml?aw_gritzwing (http://www.wlvrn.com/article.shtml?aw_gritzwing)
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Wolverine [wlvrn]
www.wlvrn.com (http://www.wlvrn.com)
33rd Strike Group
www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
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Hmmm.... I seem to remember me and Popeye encountering a pair of La5's coalt at about 25k over f14 a couple of weeks ago. Me in a Pony, Pops in a Spitfire I think.
At that altitude those La-5's were in deep trouble vs a Spitfire and Mustang anyway.