Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Steve on March 05, 2005, 12:49:01 AM
-
http://www.foxnews.com./story/0,2933,149425,00.html
Lol poor democrats, bet they are weeping in their latte's
-
wtg greenspan.
;)
-
It is a recession, i can only aford to own a single engine plane
-
Hmm, ain't they the same ones claiming that SS is fine?
-
you are correct, SS hasn't done much since eichman was put away. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar &/or a fool
-
Originally posted by bunch
you are correct, SS hasn't done much since eichman was put away. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar &/or a fool
Well it is medicare that is in trouble and not SS. And the private account idea may be a good idea but it does nothing to fix the "problem" with SS. Then again this admin almost does it right. They attacked Iraq when they should have attacked Iran. But its only one letter off.
:lol
-
^^^^^^ :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
-
Well it is medicare that is in trouble and not SS.
If we stopped treating illegals for free in our emergency rooms our medical care problem would be gone overnight.
-
Originally posted by Steve
If we stopped treating illegals for free in our emergency rooms our medical care problem would be gone overnight.
We should bill Mexico for their care.
-
Amen!
-
The human spirit is such that it strives for more. For better.
I don't have a family, no children.... but if I did.... and if we lived in some beat down POS town in Mexico.... you can bet yer arse I'd be casting a glance or two North.
You're relying on a line. They've got something a bit more pressing on their minds.
You know that sort of optimistic feeling you get when you hear that things are looking better in the Middle East... or when the USSR imploded, or when the Wall fell...
It's based on an inherent belief that there's a kind of core nestled inside of humanity which understands right from wrong. Understands freedom despite never having experienced it. Has hope despite the lack of any discernable evidence that could possibly justify it. And which ultimately prevails.
We were in shock watching Tiananmen Square; the sudden realization that these people were actually going ahead and deciding to display signs of life.
That we knew they had all along.
No.... You are not going to be able to keep these people down.
I suggest that you embrace them, hang out... know their women carnally, and just generally have a good time about it.
-
They've got something a bit more pressing on their minds.
Ya, like getting hand outs form the govt. You embrace them, sounds like your kind.
-
Right.
Like they don't work their tulips off for next to nothing. And nobody is worried about the competition. No.... They come north, immediately sign up for welfare and lose a limb costing the taxpayers untold millions.
-
'Sides....
If they were really such the bane of all that is America... Why is Bush, just like everyone before him, giving them a pass?
One must assume that, at the very least, someone is hiring them...
-
If they were really such the bane of all that is America... Why is Bush, just like everyone before him, giving them a pass?
For the minority vote.
-
No.... They come north, immediately sign up for welfare and lose a limb costing the taxpayers untold millions.
No , they come north and take their kids to the emergency room for a runny nose because they cannot get health care in Mexico, costing taxpayers untold millions.
-
Please...
I offer you this Kleenex with the most profound sense of empathy for your plight and what you must be dealing with right now.
I had no idea. It must be terrible for you. I am so fluff'n sorry Steve.
-
Please...
*snicker*
Sarcasm is all that is left to you, since you have lost.
:lol
-
actually. he didnt.
america is a nation of immigrants.
having them here, and continuing to have them here is what has made, and will continue to make this country strong.
some people sound to me like the type that would be berching about having to feed the slaves in the field.
nash was expressing a very well rounded world view, taking into account the greatest part of the free spirit and the willingness to help that spirit rise.
for those of you who have no problem banking the future of our children on an expensive globalistic war for this "freedom" i am shocked that you would have so little empathy for those who would seek it here within our borders.
perhaps some americans belong to the "well, i was born here so i am privleged" club. or perhaps, deep down under all of that posturing lies a rascist.
or maybe its not that at all. maybe its the competition that you fear. the thought that these people are willing to make thier break...work thier tools off and make something of themselves. maybe you are afraid that they will cut in line...
fact is.
we all come from either indians or immigrants. just cuz you are here doesnt make you suddenly special or protected from competition.
i am sure that they thought that your kind was pondscum when they arrived too.
glad they got the chance to prove them wrong.
but then, in some cases, they havent been...but for the most part...
88
;)
-
His post had nothing to do with the content of their character. It was soley refering to the welfare that is given out to illegal immigrants that seek medical care in US hospitals. As a libertarian you of all people should understand his position. The taxpayers of this country are subsidising healthcare for people that illegaly enter our country, work under the table(pay no taxes), and then demand free (aint free, me and you are paying for it) services at the local emergency room when one of their 6 kids gets a cold.
I have enough issues with the amount of money that is taken from me every week by good ol' uncle Sammy. I sure as hell don't want to be paying for someone that does not respect the laws of this country to get anything, medical care included.
Everyone is welcome in this country as far as I'm concerned, just do it the right way. Get here legaly, gain citizenship, learn at least enough of the language to get by. Support yourself, pay the taxes that come with the opportunity that you came here to enjoy. Have a good life, make babies. Tell yer grandkids how lucky you are that you had the chance to make it here and make a better life. Just don't sneak into the country, work illegaly, remain unable to talk to 90% of the country, contribute no money(taxes) to the country that you are robbing, and demand government subsidies because you are poor and downtrodden.
Maybe I'm just a hardass.
-
Originally posted by Nash
'Sides....
If they were really such the bane of all that is America... Why is Bush, just like everyone before him, giving them a pass?
One must assume that, at the very least, someone is hiring them...
he's kinda right on this. a quick muster on any construction site in America will prove him to be correct.
The facts are a little different from popularly held beliefs when it comes to compensation. many immigrants illegal or otherwise are willing to take the less desirable and low paying work many Americans refuse to perform. A large number of immigrants are showing up with with considerable skill in many different trades.
in my industry we see many highly skilled and talented welders/fitters who will initially take any job at any wage. once they have settled into their positions and prove their merit they quickly earn on par with anyone. they are willing to put in the time and effort to learn new techniques and production methods and are generally a pleasure to work with.
personally i am glad to see immigrants and i hope the flow never stops. we receive the best the world has to offer and we are all the better for it. this is a nation of immigrants. who gave any of us the right to say when it's time to stop? far from being a bane, they are a blessing.
-
Originally posted by storch
many immigrants illegal or otherwise are willing to take the less desirable and low paying work many Americans refuse to perform.
It's funny how you stated that. "Illegal or otherwise"
Almost as if the illegal ones are the accepted norm, 'otherwise' used to describe the honest ones that try to obey the laws of the country that is allowing them the opportunity to make a better life.
Good, honest, hardworking. That describes the majority of the people that I have met that have come into this country to eek out a living. If we could just figure out a way to make them apply for citizenship, it will be a great, or greater, asset to us and a continuation of the American tradition of immigrants shaping the future.
Continuing the policy of allowing the illegal influx of immigrants into this country, and the resulting burden on the taxpayers, is not only unfair to those of us that are paying taxes, it will continue to drain the public coffers of funds that are needed for the citizens that are supposed to recieve them.
Welcome all that want to come. But they all need to participate in our system.
-
Originally posted by Lazerus
It's funny how you stated that. "Illegal or otherwise"
Almost as if the illegal ones are the accepted norm, 'otherwise' used to describe the honest ones that try to obey the laws of the country that is allowing them the opportunity to make a better life.
Good, honest, hardworking. That describes the majority of the people that I have met that have come into this country to eek out a living. If we could just figure out a way to make them apply for citizenship, it will be a great, or greater, asset to us and a continuation of the American tradition of immigrants shaping the future.
Continuing the policy of allowing the illegal influx of immigrants into this country, and the resulting burden on the taxpayers, is not only unfair to those of us that are paying taxes, it will continue to drain the public coffers of funds that are needed for the citizens that are supposed to recieve them.
Welcome all that want to come. But they all need to participate in our system.
yup I agree with that, never the less they are here. no one in Gov't has the will to do what needs doing, namely securing our southern border in a manner that would not further infringe upon our civil liberties. actually if we think social security is a third rail the political consequences of pissing off something like 25% of the voting electorate does seem suicidal. I'm fairly certain that we would not want to suspend the posse comitatus act of 1878. there are proponents in congress who would do just that. the "patriot act" is bad enough, thankyou very much.
-
america is a nation of immigrants.
Blah blah blah. This is conveniently short sited. I have a hard time believeing someone who is a professed libertarian can possibly approve of illegal immigration. Admit it, you're a leftist liberal... EVERY position you've ever taken, AFAIK, has been a leftist(and often far left) view. You are just about ANYTHING but a libertarian.
Anyway, back to the point. I have no problem with people that want to come to our country and make a legal living. You say we are all immigrants here. Well my family is.... they immigrated legally, earned their way, and didn't get freee health care from anyone, just like most everyone's ancestors.
If these people come here, PAY taxes, I welcome them... the American dream! I have a problem with the millions of illegals that come here, make money under the table, send the bulk of that money to Mexico(yes, they do this) then expect(and get) free health care by using our emergency rooms as a free clinic.
Footnote: I also have a problem with thos who employ illegals... a big problem.
-
Originally posted by Steve
No , they come north and take their kids to the emergency room for a runny nose because they cannot get health care in Mexico, costing taxpayers untold millions.
Sir, I live on the immediate border in an area highly populated on both sides. Here's an insight from someone who's there and can see what's happening:
Bravo Sierra.
Yes there is to some extent utilization of local medical resources by foreign nationals here. But it is in general not related to routine medical needs.
This is because health care in Mexico is cheaper than it is here by an order of magnitude, so much so that many locals here routinely drive across the bridge to obtain their routine medical needs.
Its been my observation and direct experience that the health care system in Mexico is both pretty good and tailored to suit Mexico's needs. For-pay care is affordable, their Social Security system steps pretty well in terms of providing for indigents, and there's a wide variety of private systems that provide care for various employee groups.
I'm not saying there isn't an issue to be dealt with here. What I am saying is that the attitude expressed in your post is utterly absurd.
culero
-
Originally posted by culero
Sir, I live on the immediate border in an area highly populated on both sides. Here's an insight from someone who's there and can see what's happening:
Bravo Sierra.
Yes there is to some extent utilization of local medical resources by foreign nationals here. But it is in general not related to routine medical needs.
This is because health care in Mexico is cheaper than it is here by an order of magnitude, so much so that many locals here routinely drive across the bridge to obtain their routine medical needs.
Its been my observation and direct experience that the health care system in Mexico is both pretty good and tailored to suit Mexico's needs. For-pay care is affordable, their Social Security system steps pretty well in terms of providing for indigents, and there's a wide variety of private systems that provide care for various employee groups.
I'm not saying there isn't an issue to be dealt with here. What I am saying is that the attitude expressed in your post is utterly absurd.
culero
BZZZZZ. Thanks for playing.
#
In some hospitals, as much as two-thirds of total operating costs
are for uncompensated care for illegal aliens.
Border hospitals reported losses of almost $190 million in
unreimbursed costs for treating illegal aliens in 2000, with another $113 million in ambulance fees and follow-up services
The problem is on the rise: Immigrants (legal and illegal) who arrived between 1994 and 1998 and their children accounted for 59 percent of the growth in the size of the uninsured population in the
last ten years.
FAIR (http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/IllHealth.htm)
-
Sir,
My wife works in a local hospital here in Phoenix as an RN. She, and many of her friends either have or do work in local emergency rooms. Not only do the illegals frequent the ER's with their minor problems, they do so at what many feel is nearly an epidemic rate.
You are mistaken.
-
Originally posted by Steve
Blah blah blah. This is conveniently short sited. I have a hard time believeing someone who is a professed libertarian can possibly approve of illegal immigration. Admit it, you're a leftist liberal... EVERY position you've ever taken, AFAIK, has been a leftist(and often far left) view. You are just about ANYTHING but a libertarian.
Anyway, back to the point. I have no problem with people that want to come to our country and make a legal living. You say we are all immigrants here. Well my family is.... they immigrated legally, earned their way, and didn't get freee health care from anyone, just like most everyone's ancestors.
If these people come here, PAY taxes, I welcome them... the American dream! I have a problem with the millions of illegals that come here, make money under the table, send the bulk of that money to Mexico(yes, they do this) then expect(and get) free health care by using our emergency rooms as a free clinic.
Footnote: I also have a problem with thos who employ illegals... a big problem.
oh boy I'm a leftist :rolleyes: many of us employers cannot determine if documents that are presented to us are legitimate. I suppose one could call and verify each new employee thoroughly but if i need an installer or a welder today and he has proper looking documentation he gets the job. furthermore illegal or otherwise his taxes and fica contributions are withheld, if he is illegal he will never receive anything back under that identity. that simply means more found money for uncle sugar. it's bad enough that that the federal gov't has turned every business owner into it's unpaid revenuer i'll be good and damned if i will also be it's unpaid INS agent as well. :D what i think you need to do steve is to get your head resharpened. the point looks a little dull from here. :aok
-
Originally posted by Steve
Sir,
My wife works in a local hospital here in Phoenix as an RN. She, and many of her friends either have or do work in local emergency rooms. Not only do the illegals frequent the ER's with their minor problems, they do so at what many feel is nearly an epidemic rate.
You are mistaken.
How close to the border are you?
Here, "coming north" as you put it means merely driving across a few hundred yards of bridge.
In the scenario you're describing, we're talking a journey of a few hundred miles.
Use your head. A parent with a child with an illness will seek help in the most efficient and available manner possible. Where I live, for a Mexican national that's in Mexico.
You're talking about an entirely different problem, and couching in incorrect terms. The problem you refer to is legitimate and needs to be dealt with. Speak to it directly.
Yes, I'm sure, you probably have a lot of illegals in your ERs. But they didn't "come north" to bring a runny nose there. The reason they came is wholly seperate. They are at the ER because they have nowhere else nearby to go, now. If they were back home, they likely would.
The main problem is how we deal with immigration, and the integration of immigrants into our society. Then, its the nature of our health care system and its lack of capacity for indigent health care that creates the subset of the problem you refer to.
culero
-
Originally posted by culero
How close to the border are you?
Here, "coming north" as you put it means merely driving across a few hundred yards of bridge.
In the scenario you're describing, we're talking a journey of a few hundred miles.
Use your head. A parent with a child with an illness will seek help in the most efficient and available manner possible. Where I live, for a Mexican national that's in Mexico.
You're talking about an entirely different problem, and couching in incorrect terms. The problem you refer to is legitimate and needs to be dealt with. Speak to it directly.
Yes, I'm sure, you probably have a lot of illegals in your ERs. But they didn't "come north" to bring a runny nose there. The reason they came is wholly seperate. They are at the ER because they have nowhere else nearby to go, now. If they were back home, they likely would.
The main problem is how we deal with immigration, and the integration of immigrants into our society. Then, its the nature of our health care system and its lack of capacity for indigent health care that creates the subset of the problem you refer to.
culero
Border hospitals reported losses of almost $190 million in
unreimbursed costs for treating illegal aliens in 2000, with another $113 million in ambulance fees and follow-up services
-
Originally posted by storch
oh boy I'm a leftist :rolleyes:
Welcome to the dark side!!
-
Originally posted by Schaden
Welcome to the dark side!!
:D
-
oh boy I'm a leftist many of us employers cannot determine if documents that are presented to us are legitimate.
I missed the part where I said you are a leftist. Seems like you're just ignorant. Get a better education, it helps with reading.
the point looks a little dull from here.
plow you.
-
Use your head. A parent with a child with an illness will seek help in the most efficient and available manner possible.
If they were here legally, they'd have at least an opportunity for health insurance. Use your own head. when your child gets a runny nose, do you take it to the emrgency room as the most available manner possible? No, you call your doctor and get an appointment or walk in there, not the emergency room. You play by the rules. The illegals do not.
Yes, I'm sure, you probably have a lot of illegals in your ERs. But they didn't "come north" to bring a runny nose there. The reason they came is wholly seperate.
Who cares why they came North illegally?
Tell you what, you seem to want to provide health care for illegals. Fine with me, will you pay my taxes for me so I'm not forced to provide for them?
-
Then, its the nature of our health care system and its lack of capacity for indigent health care that creates the subset of the problem you refer to.
Close out borders, problem solved. We could more than afford to close our borders w/ the money we lose in illegal immigrant free ehealthcare
-
furthermore illegal or otherwise his taxes and fica contributions are withheld,
Nice try but you're full of crap for the most part. The VAST majority of illegals are day laborors and work for cash.
-
Originally posted by Steve
plow you.
yup. point definitely needs sharpening there tough guy. you can't spell to save your life. tell me can you see through a keyhole with both eyes simultaneously? I'll bet you can. :rofl
-
Originally posted by Steve
Nice try but you're full of crap for the most part. The VAST majority of illegals are day laborors and work for cash.
oh boy he's an authority on how people get paid in America.
-
Originally posted by Steve
If they were here legally, they'd have at least an opportunity for health insurance. Use your own head. when your child gets a runny nose, do you take it to the emergency room as the most available manner possible? No, you call your doctor and get an appointment or walk in there, not the emergency room. You play by the rules. The illegals do not.
I'll assume you are not speaking to me personally when you say "you", but are (at least you seem to me to be) saying "US citizen" or "legal resident" or similar, correct? In that case, your statement is not accurate.
Of course, most parents with the means to do so would do exactly as you said. But many people who live in the US under legal circumstances do so with an income (or lack thereof) that does not afford the ability to pay for their medical care. And guess what, bud? That doctor you're citing here in most cases will refuse to treat them unless they can pay. Furthermore, there ain't any pharmacies I know of that let the meds go out the door without the cash up front.
My point is that you making it seem that the only reason we have a problem with our health care system is that illegals abuse it. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I agree there is. You're just describing it inaccurately.
In fact, the common factor in the abuse is the fact that largely, those that are abusing the system are INDIGENT. This is a poverty-related problem, it applies to both legal residents and illegals.
Originally posted by Steve
Who cares why they came North illegally?
Why do you ask? Its really a whole different discussion, isn't it?
But I'll answer - probably those who are interested to know why. Doh. (I would've thought you could figger that out on yer own).
Originally posted by Steve
snip
Tell you what, you seem to want to provide health care for illegals.
I hesitate to accuse someone I don't know well of being bigoted, but I'm getting the impression you might need to self-examine. You're talking about what I agree are things we need to fix, but the terms you're talking about the situation in make you seem, well...
culero
-
you can't spell to save your life
You're kidding right? You actually think I spelled it that way on purpose? Man, you really are a dipchit.
-
My point is that you making it seem that the only reason we have a problem with our health care system is that illegals abuse it.
You'll have to show me where I said that.
I hesitate to accuse someone I don't know well of being bigoted, ...
Well, if you construe that me not wanting to pay for the healthcare of illegal aliens is being bigoted, then yes, I am bigoted.
In fact, the common factor in the abuse is the fact that largely, those that are abusing the system are INDIGENT
Can you establish this with any backing? I cannot speak for the rest of the nation but in AZ, illegal aliens are the main culprit.
-
That doctor you're citing here in most cases will refuse to treat them unless they can pay.
Sounds fair to me. Don't you like to be paid for services rendered?
-
Originally posted by Steve
Nice try but you're full of crap for the most part. The VAST majority of illegals are day laborors and work for cash.
So, wouldn't it be a ghood idea to consider that given they are finding the work, its available and people here are willing to pay for it?
Given that we live in a system that is (or should be) driven by supply and demand, wouldn't it be wise to at least CONSIDER that, and decide whether or not we should do what it takes to incorporate this part of our nation's commerce into the legal sector where these folks WOULD be subject to IRS and FICA?
They're here, they're earning, they're not contributing their share, true. But if the system won't allow them to contribute, how can you blame them? I say lets seek ways to allow compliance before we complain about non-compliance.
culero
-
Originally posted by Steve
Sounds fair to me. Don't you like to be paid for services rendered?
Absolutely. That wasn't a complaint against the doctor. It was statement of fact, and again I am trying to point you toward what the problem is.
culero
-
They're here, they're earning, they're not contributing their share, true. But if the system won't allow them to contribute
This is incorrect. The system allows for them to contribute. Crooked contractors and their ilk enable their criminal behavior of tax evasion.
-
Originally posted by Steve
You'll have to show me where I said that.
Fair enough, I concede this point.
Originally posted by Steve
Well, if you construe that me not wanting to pay for the healthcare of illegal aliens is being bigoted, then yes, I am bigoted.
No, I don't blame you for not wanting to pay for others' health care. I feel the same way.
I'm just getting the impression that rather than try to understand what's driving this problem (economics/poverty), and are focusing on a class of people to blame. That's what makes me fear you might need to do some self-inspection.
Originally posted by Steve
Can you establish this with any backing? I cannot speak for the rest of the nation but in AZ, illegal aliens are the main culprit.
I read it on the internet. :rolleyes:
Seriously, if you think there isn't a significant segment of the legal US population that lives below the poverty line, you have a lot to learn. Many poor people can't afford health care. Its a problem we as a society should be aware of, and trying to fix.
culero
-
Originally posted by culero
Fair enough, I concede this point.
No, I don't blame you for not wanting to pay for others' health care. I feel the same way.
I'm just getting the impression that rather than try to understand what's driving this problem (economics/poverty), and are focusing on a class of people to blame. That's what makes me fear you might need to do some self-inspection.
I read it on the internet. :rolleyes:
Seriously, if you think there isn't a significant segment of the legal US population that lives below the poverty line, you have a lot to learn. Many poor people can't afford health care. Its a problem we as a society should be aware of, and trying to fix.
culero
And we can start fixing it by tossing illegals back over the fence and refusing them treatment at hospitals.
-
Culero, I'm starting to think we are arguing the same point, lol.
I do not feel that illegal aliens are the SOLE source of our fiscal woes as far as healthcare goes. What I do know is that they are a very LARGE part of the problem.
Additionally, I'm less inclined to piss and moan about pitching in for healthcare for a deserving indigent than I am for an illegal alien.
I hope you know what I'm trying to say if my point is unclear.
-
Originally posted by Martlet
And we can start fixing it by tossing illegals back over the fence and refusing them treatment at hospitals.
ok. but first who will plant my annuals next month? who will pick my tomatos? aside from that who will do all this proposed tossing? you? that imbecile steve?
the fact is that unless we are prepared to seal the southern border including the entire Gulf of Mexico and Florida's east coast we will never stem the tide. the opportunities in America are a powerful draw for anyone living in the surrounding third world mess.
some of you guys appear to be xenophobic, racist and incredibly nieve.
next time you consume any agricultural products ponder how it made it's way to your table.
next time you order construction services for your home specify to the contractor that only American born English speaking people are to be employed on your job.
occasionally some steve requests that from us ("well i don't want anyone here that i can't speak to directly" or words to that effect) those are the stupid handsomehunkes that we won't work for.
:rofl
-
some of you guys appear to be xenophobic, racist and incredibly nieve
Aren't you the ******* that was saying I can't spell?
BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
-
So Storch just so I understand correctly, you believe that it is ok for anyone to cross our borders, regardless of the laws of our country and the incredible cost to our nation. Is that correct?
This is primarily so you can have cheap tomatos, you don't have to plant your own flora, and so you can have cheap laborors. Is that correct?
-
Originally posted by Steve
Aren't you the ******* that was saying I can't spell?
BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
yes I'm the man who said that. resorting to aterisks for your profanity now? be brave, say it loud ( you're dumb and you're proud) ignorant products of siblings mating need to express themselves too. say "hi" to your uncle/dad for me.
-
Lol storch, I didn't put the asterisks in, the system did. With every post you're stupidity becomes ever more obvious.
You chide me for misspelling when I merely used internet slang yet you are the one with spelling errors. A little salt in your argument is fine but I can see since you've nothing left but insults that we are done here. Have a nice day!
-
Originally posted by Steve
So Storch just so I understand correctly, you believe that it is ok for anyone to cross our borders, regardless of the laws of our country and the incredible cost to our nation. Is that correct?
This is primarily so you can have cheap tomatos, you don't have to plant your own flora, and so you can have cheap laborors. Is that correct?
not at all. what I'm saying is that it is a fact that they are here and nothing can be done about it. no one holding an elected position is willing to touch the issue.
I recall an incident a few years back when an illegal in Orange County was shooting his pistol on private property. the gunfire drew the attention of an off duty Orange County deputy that went to investigate. The deputy asked the man to put away his weapon and leave the premesis. The illegal pointed his weapon at the deputy but did not discharge it. the deputy shot him dead. This created an internation bruhaha culminating with Billy Jeff (#42) apologizing to the Mexican potentate over the incident.
How on earth are we going to solve the problem when the least of our concerns is that they are merely breaking immigration laws.
The coyotes (human smugglers) routinely engage INS personnel with automatic weapons and as I understand it our agents are not allowed to shoot back.
I think the solution is work permits and taxation. don't get me started on national health care either.
have you seen the price of tomatos lately? we're paying around $2 per pound for the premium tomatos. :D
-
Originally posted by storch
ok. but first who will plant my annuals next month? who will pick my tomatos? aside from that who will do all this proposed tossing? you? that imbecile steve?
the fact is that unless we are prepared to seal the southern border including the entire Gulf of Mexico and Florida's east coast we will never stem the tide. the opportunities in America are a powerful draw for anyone living in the surrounding third world mess.
some of you guys appear to be xenophobic, racist and incredibly nieve.
next time you consume any agricultural products ponder how it made it's way to your table.
next time you order construction services for your home specify to the contractor that only American born English speaking people are to be employed on your job.
occasionally some steve requests that from us ("well i don't want anyone here that i can't speak to directly" or words to that effect) those are the stupid handsomehunkes that we won't work for.
:rofl
You're confusing independent arguments.
First, the government should be doing the tossing. They're neglect in their duties. Expecting the Government to enforce the law isn't racist, xenophobic, or naive. That's a non-argument thrown up as a smoke screen because it's idiocy to argue in favor of illegal immigration.
If a person's first act in this country is to violate it's laws, I have no use for them. They can pick vegetables in Mexico.
Here's some statistics for California along:
Analysis of the latest Census data indicates that California's illegal immigrant population is costing the state's taxpayers more than $10.5 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration
10.5 billion a year on criminals that should be tossed back over the fence. In ONE state.
The annual fiscal burden from those three areas of state expenditures amounts to about $1,183 per household headed by a native-born resident.
Each HOUSEHOLD writes a check for twelve hundred bucks a year to educate, treat, and incarcerate people who shouldn't even be here.
The fiscal costs of illegal immigration do not end with these three major cost areas. The total costs of illegal immigration to the state's taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, school feeding programs, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were added into the equation.
This doesn't even touch upon the 10 billion sent back to Mexico annually. Stolen from our economy.
You're "facts" just don't add up, as I've shown for the third time in this thread.
http://www.fairus.org/ (http://www.fairus.org/)
-
Originally posted by Martlet
You're confusing independent arguments.
First, the government should be doing the tossing. They're neglect in their duties. Expecting the Government to enforce the law isn't racist, xenophobic, or naive. That's a non-argument thrown up as a smoke screen because it's idiocy to argue in favor of illegal immigration.
If a person's first act in this country is to violate it's laws, I have no use for them. They can pick vegetables in Mexico.
Here's some statistics for California along:
10.5 billion a year on criminals that should be tossed back over the fence. In ONE state.
Each HOUSEHOLD writes a check for twelve hundred bucks a year to educate, treat, and incarcerate people who shouldn't even be here.
This doesn't even touch upon the 10 billion sent back to Mexico annually. Stolen from our economy.
You're "facts" just don't add up, as I've shown for the third time in this thread.
http://www.fairus.org/ (http://www.fairus.org/)
Let me simplify it for you, T H E G O V E R N M E N T W I L L N O T D O A N Y T H I N G A B O U T I L L E G A L I M M I G R A T I O N. The hispanic vote is too well organized.
-
Originally posted by storch
Let me simplify it for you, T H E G O V E R N M E N T W I L L N O T D O A N Y T H I N G A B O U T I L L E G A L I M M I G R A T I O N.
That's not true at all.
This administration may not, but as the issue becomes more and more important, some administration will.
That being said, it has absolutely nothing to do with your arguement, or mine.
-
Originally posted by Martlet
That's not true at all.
This administration may not, but as the issue becomes more and more important, some administration will.
That being said, it has absolutely nothing to do with your arguement, or mine.
Dude, of course it does. look if they weren't here then none of those problems (if you choose to view them as such) would not exist.
personally i don't view them as problems.
1. they are performing work that needs doing and no one here wants to do it!!!
2. the money they earn and send back to their home countries ends up back here in the form of purchases made in the U.S. perhaps because you live in a non gateway city you miss that point. go to any major electrodomestic product marketer here in S. Fl and ask randomly where this or such is going to. you would be amazed.
It's a reciprocating global economy. the south of our borders market is important to us. moreso here in S. Florida.
There are whole cities here Dade County where 90%+ of the citizenry floated across the Florida straights or crossed the frontier less than 20 years ago illegally and are now tax paying homeowners.
The United States is no different today than at any other period in it's history. If you are of anglo descent you are the descendant of the prototypical illegal immigrant.
admit it you just hate the enchiladas.
-
Originally posted by storch
Dude, of course it does. look if they weren't here then none of those problems (if you choose to view them as such) would not exist.
personally i don't view them as problems.
1. they are performing work that needs doing and no one here wants to do it!!!
2. the money they earn and send back to their home countries ends up back here in the form of purchases made in the U.S. perhaps because you live in a non gateway city you miss that point. go to any major electrodomestic product marketer here in S. Fl and ask randomly where this or such is going to. you would be amazed.
It's a reciprocating global economy. the south of our borders market is important to us. moreso here in S. Florida.
There are whole cities here Dade County where 90%+ of the citizenry floated across the Florida straights or crossed the frontier less than 20 years ago illegally and are now tax paying homeowners.
The United States is no different today than at any other period in it's history. If you are of anglo descent you are the descendant of the prototypical illegal immigrant.
admit it you just hate the enchiladas.
1. They aren't performing work that no one wants to do. That's a false statement. FAIR estimates over 1.8 million Americans are displaced annually.
2. That's another incorrect statement. I'd love to see where you get that information. They send the money HOME.
I don't hate the enchiladas. I hate the over 300 million dollars border hospitals lose to illegals annually.
I hate the 7.4 billion we spend annually on their education.
I hate the 300,000 anchor babies born hear every year.
etc etc.
It's amazing you don't see those as problems.
-
Storch, your last post to me really has some good points.
no one holding an elected position is willing to touch the issue.
True, and it sux.
1. they are performing work that needs doing and no one here wants to do it!!!
Think this through. They are performing work no-one wants only because the wages are so low. The wages are so low because they can be, because there is an illegal workforce willing to work for low wages. If the illegals were not here, wages would have to go up to attract laborors. Prices would go up on several/many items but so what? The laborors who are now making more money are documented, tax paying consumers in our economy. They actually become an asset to our tax burden instead of the drain that illegals are. Additionally, these higher paid laborors will have more money to buy things here and thus will further aid the economy. Please take a moment or two to consider this.
-
Originally posted by Steve
This is incorrect. The system allows for them to contribute. Crooked contractors and their ilk enable their criminal behavior of tax evasion.
Which, again, is a function of how our system is set up, not the desires of the people we're talking about who are doing the work. They simply want to earn a living by doing honest work. I'd think you'd admire that.
Given the chance, don't you think they'd rather be on the books than under the table?
I've met and interacted with enough illegal aliens in my time to be able to assure you they, in the overwhelming majority of cases, certainly would. Most of 'em want exactly what you want (that they take care of their own needs by dint of their own efforts).
culero
-
Originally posted by Martlet
And we can start fixing it by tossing illegals back over the fence and refusing them treatment at hospitals.
Wouldn't it be more expedient to just round 'em up and run them through the ovens?
culero
-
Originally posted by Steve
snip
Additionally, I'm less inclined to piss and moan about pitching in for healthcare for a deserving indigent than I am for an illegal alien.
I hope you know what I'm trying to say if my point is unclear.
Yes, as you say we actually share concerns regarding the situation.
My point is that there are two problems at play, the immigration problem and the poverty problem....and that the fact they overlap each other a lot may cause confusion.
What I am suggesting is that we shouldn't have so many illegal aliens working here, but that since they are the ones filling the jobs we obviously have a need for their services, so let's explore that. Let's try to find a way for our mutual needs to be satisfied in equitable ways. Let's fix our system so that if there's jobs that the legal population isn't going to fill, there are legal ways for foreigners to do so. Then we all win - their families eat, the services we desire are performed, we have good relations with them, and they pay their share of the tax burden.
What I am also saying is that the overload of the health care system you cite is a result of poverty. Poor people without the means to pay for basic medical care resort to what you're talking about. Let's try to find ways to make sure that people who work at lower income levels have medical care available that they can afford to pay for. Think. Even if we subsidized part of their cost, wouldn't their partial contributions be better then the nothing they're paying now? Wouldn't that be more economical than what the emergency rooms are costing?
As to the medical thing, does it really matter whether the person we're discussing is legal or illegal? Human is human, when you're in the face of either.
I know its complicated, but this is people we're talking about, not some enemy trying to destroy us. Resenting them for who they are isn't right. You don't have to agree to pay their way in order to agree to have some compassion and understanding for their situation. Its also possible to seek constructive solutions, and I believe that's what we should do.
culero
-
Originally posted by culero
Yes, as you say we actually share concerns regarding the situation.
My point is that there are two problems at play, the immigration problem and the poverty problem....and that the fact they overlap each other a lot may cause confusion.
What I am suggesting is that we shouldn't have so many illegal aliens working here, but that since they are the ones filling the jobs we obviously have a need for their services, so let's explore that. Let's try to find a way for our mutual needs to be satisfied in equitable ways. Let's fix our system so that if there's jobs that the legal population isn't going to fill, there are legal ways for foreigners to do so. Then we all win - their families eat, the services we desire are performed, we have good relations with them, and they pay their share of the tax burden.
What I am also saying is that the overload of the health care system you cite is a result of poverty. Poor people without the means to pay for basic medical care resort to what you're talking about. Let's try to find ways to make sure that people who work at lower income levels have medical care available that they can afford to pay for. Think. Even if we subsidized part of their cost, wouldn't their partial contributions be better then the nothing they're paying now? Wouldn't that be more economical than what the emergency rooms are costing?
As to the medical thing, does it really matter whether the person we're discussing is legal or illegal? Human is human, when you're in the face of either.
I know its complicated, but this is people we're talking about, not some enemy trying to destroy us. Resenting them for who they are isn't right. You don't have to agree to pay their way in order to agree to have some compassion and understanding for their situation. Its also possible to seek constructive solutions, and I believe that's what we should do.
culero
!!!
-
Originally posted by culero
Yes, as you say we actually share concerns regarding the situation.
My point is that there are two problems at play, the immigration problem and the poverty problem....and that the fact they overlap each other a lot may cause confusion.
What I am suggesting is that we shouldn't have so many illegal aliens working here, but that since they are the ones filling the jobs we obviously have a need for their services, so let's explore that. Let's try to find a way for our mutual needs to be satisfied in equitable ways. Let's fix our system so that if there's jobs that the legal population isn't going to fill, there are legal ways for foreigners to do so. Then we all win - their families eat, the services we desire are performed, we have good relations with them, and they pay their share of the tax burden.
What I am also saying is that the overload of the health care system you cite is a result of poverty. Poor people without the means to pay for basic medical care resort to what you're talking about. Let's try to find ways to make sure that people who work at lower income levels have medical care available that they can afford to pay for. Think. Even if we subsidized part of their cost, wouldn't their partial contributions be better then the nothing they're paying now? Wouldn't that be more economical than what the emergency rooms are costing?
As to the medical thing, does it really matter whether the person we're discussing is legal or illegal? Human is human, when you're in the face of either.
I know its complicated, but this is people we're talking about, not some enemy trying to destroy us. Resenting them for who they are isn't right. You don't have to agree to pay their way in order to agree to have some compassion and understanding for their situation. Its also possible to seek constructive solutions, and I believe that's what we should do.
culero
that sums it up fairly well.
-
What I am also saying is that the overload of the health care system you cite is a result of poverty.
It is my understanding that, at least in AZ, there is adequate health care available for the population, less illegals. There goes the overload problem.
Let's try to find ways to make sure that people who work at lower income levels have medical care available that they can afford to pay for.
This smacks of a govt run health care program. Govt run healthcare fails miserably. Canada is an example. Since I want less Govt control/intrusion, I'll disagree here.
Its also possible to seek constructive solutions, and I believe that's what we should do.
I am going to respond as if you are addressing the whole of the illegal alien problem and not just their burden on the healthcare system.
Illegals, and the troubles they(no, not all of them) cause account for more than 50% of law enforcement expenditures for many LE entities here in AZ. That means in many areas of AZ, the tax payers are significantly less safe because of our lax border policies, or at least or lax enforcement thereof.
That said, I am not opposed to some kind of system where Mexicans( I use them specifically as a people of a country, not as slur toward immigrants. I do this because Mexicans make up over 90% of illegals here in AZ) who wish to come to our country are granted some kind of relatively easy to get work permit and are allowed to apply for citizenship.
My concern lies where a whole family moves here illegally and with no means of support. They take day labor jobs mostly and do not contribute to the tax roll yet they use our roads, schools, hospitals and other public resources. Many, many of those who come here illegally are merely criminals looking for the next house to burgle, purse to snatch, car to steal etc. They are a huge drain on our LE and prison systems. I want all of these people deported, and our borders sealed to illegal immigration.
-
I just had me a vision.
Legalize pot... then legalize Mexicans. Get the Mexicans to grow the pot.
We're talkin' money train!
-
Education. Based on estimates of the illegal immigrant population in Arizona and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Arizonans spend approximately $820 million annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings.
Health Care. Uncom-pensated medical outlays for health care provided to the state’s illegal alien population is now estimated at about $400 million a year.
Incarceration. The cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in Arizona prisons and jails amounts to about $80 million a year (not including the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration).
The unauthorized immigrant population pays some state and local taxes that go toward offsetting these costs, but they do not come near to matching the expenses. The total of such payments might generously be estimated at $257 million per year.
The fiscal costs of illegal immigration do not end with these three major cost items. The total costs of illegal immigration to the state’s taxpayers would be considerably higher if other costs such as special English instruction, school nutrition programs, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were added into the equation.
Source:
http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=2440&c=13
-
Originally posted by Martlet
You're confusing independent arguments.
First, the government should be doing the tossing. They're neglect in their duties. Expecting the Government to enforce the law isn't racist, xenophobic, or naive. That's a non-argument thrown up as a smoke screen because it's idiocy to argue in favor of illegal immigration.
If a person's first act in this country is to violate it's laws, I have no use for them. They can pick vegetables in Mexico.
Here's some statistics for California along:
10.5 billion a year on criminals that should be tossed back over the fence. In ONE state.
Each HOUSEHOLD writes a check for twelve hundred bucks a year to educate, treat, and incarcerate people who shouldn't even be here.
This doesn't even touch upon the 10 billion sent back to Mexico annually. Stolen from our economy.
You're "facts" just don't add up, as I've shown for the third time in this thread.
http://www.fairus.org/ (http://www.fairus.org/)
... and California attempted to do something about it (http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/prop187text.html).
It was deemed unconstitutional.
We should submit that $10 Billion bill to the Federal Govt. :D
-
I have an image of some of you dressed in native American clothes sitting around a fire in the mid 1800's having the same discussion about illegal immigration. Or even dressed as Mexicans and Spanish talking about holding back the horde of white illegal immigrants threatening to take over the land.
-
Originally posted by culero
Wouldn't it be more expedient to just round 'em up and run them through the ovens?
culero
If you feel that strongly about it, call your Congressman.
Originally posted by Sandman
... and California attempted to do something about it (http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/prop187text.html).
It was deemed unconstitutional.
We should submit that $10 Billion bill to the Federal Govt. :D
Crazy times.
-
rolex... indians had no sense of territory save who was strongest. we played by their rules. later immigrants were legal and needed.
nash... How do you know what you would do if you were a poor mexican? I am around a lot of mexicans... some are illegal because everything they do is illegal and it is just an extension of what they are as a human... they are a waste of humanity... others....
Well... I went shooting and and riding (well they rode) atv's with about a dozen first generation Americans of mexican decent who were all here legally.. some spoke decent english.. a few spoke unaccented english (including my girlfriend) they are hard working family people and gun owning hard living good people and....
They think even less of the illegals than I do.
we had a great time shooting. To tell the truth... I have more hope for an America populated with these folks than one populated byu kerrie voting girlymen.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Steve
It is my understanding that, at least in AZ, there is adequate health care available for the population, less illegals. There goes the overload problem.
Here's one of our fundamental differences. Its my understanding there isn't adequate health care available for all citizens, although I certainly agree its not desirable to increase the burden on the system by allowing abuse - whether that abuse is being done by citizens OR illegal aliens.
I realize this could mean we differ as to what's "adequate". I'm drawing partly upon my own experience as well as on anecdotal information. My own experience, which included being self-employed for the last 2 decades of the prior millenium, was that the current system singles out individual/independent consumers and assigns them the very highest pricing (in a system where prices are all pretty high).
The result is that if you are either 1) self-employed or 2) employed without group health insurance participation then you must be prepared to pay through the nose for health care.
Now, think about that for just a minute. Let's not think in terms of government-run health care (I don't want that either, give me a little credit here, we both seem to be libertarians). But let's realize that while there's a "sweet spot" in the employment market where employers tend to start adding group participation to the compensation package, MANY people who are looking at entry level employment are given no opportunity by prospective employers to participate. Face it, do the math - if you're making the kind of money those jobs pay, you can barely afford the basics (housing, food, clothes) and probably have little left over. Get sick = crisis. You ain't got the cash to pay the doctor, even if you're willing to.
So, we end up with a large group of people who are doing as we WANT them to (working to pay their own way) yet if they get sick they're screwed - not enough money to do what they'd like to do, which is pay for their own health care.
Currently, the only safety net our system has in place is for them to enter the welfare system. (Yes I know I'm ignoring the various private charitable organizations that do provide services here, but they mainly address catastrophic illness associated with research. I'm focusing on the routine here.) I'm sure we agree the welfare system (Medicare/Medicaid, state/county/municipal indigent care, government-forced private providers) is NOT how we want to address this issue, right?
Originally posted by Steve
This smacks of a govt run health care program. Govt run healthcare fails miserably. Canada is an example. Since I want less Govt control/intrusion, I'll disagree here.
OK. Me too.
But if I'm right above (that there IS a problem that needs solution) then where do we go? It isn't fixing itself.
I don't have a ready answer. My gut instinct points me in this direction:
1) Require that employers make group health care packages part of the compensation for every employee, period. Yes, it'll add to the cost of doing business. But, it'll start shifting the cost of the health care problem into the private sector (where it belongs, right?)
2) Devise some way to make those packages affordable to small businesses. We don't want Item #1 to drive small entrepreneurs from the US business landscape, but right now they are at a huge disadvantage when trying to acquire coverage for themselves and their employee groups.
3) (Possible addition, I dunno, open to debate on this one) MAYBE a "safety net" whereby people who can be gainfully employed but find themselves in need of health care without the money on hand or plan to pay for it can get low-cost loans? (Let's discuss things like how to administer that, how to secure their payment, etc in another thread, this is a concept thing I'm not even sure is necessary but believe we should discuss).
How do we do all this? Man, I wish I knew specific answers. But surely there's way. I believe the solution should be private-sector driven, as I'm sure you do.
But perhaps we might consider mandating some requirements for insurance providers, to make sure that they don't cherry-pick? Maybe the right concept is "If you want to make a profit in the USA selling health care insurance, you have to make realistic services available to all consumers."
Make people pay, but make sure they can get the right deal is where I'm coming from.
I dunno, man. I'm like you. I don't want the government involved unless its the only way. I wanna fix it so that yes people pay their own way but also so that we're sure they all have a chance to do so.
Suggestions?
Originally posted by Steve
I am going to respond as if you are addressing the whole of the illegal alien problem and not just their burden on the healthcare system.
~snip~
I want all of these people deported, and our borders sealed to illegal immigration.
Steve I ain't a bleeding heart idiot. I don't want malefactors/criminals/etc in my community, either. I'm a gun-toting hard-nosed redneck who believes thieves and thugs don't need to breathe air. Trust me on this. I also resent the hell out of freeloaders. So please disabuse yourself of the notion I want what we have now to continue, or get worse. I want illegal immigration stopped, period, too.
The difference I'm sensing between you and I is that where I'm intimately familiar with the culture of the people you're talking about (Latino immigrants as a whole, not just the illegals and criminals). I speak their language, I interact with them. My life experience teaches me that on the whole, we're talking about a group of people who are hardworking, dedicated to family, honest and honorable, and who want nothing more than what you and I want - a chance to be part of our "American Dream". They don't want to freeload. They want to participate, contribute, and help the thing grow.
The point is they're the kind of folks I want for neighbors. OK? And, I suspect that if your level of understanding of them was as deep as mine, you'd agree. Maybe you do, if I'm wrong about you I apologize.
So, where does this leave us? I'm F_R_E_A_K_E_D__O_U_T by the implications of that catch phrase "seal our borders". That creates images in my mind that are really ugly. It smacks of things like "Prohibition", "War On Drugs", "Patriot Act", "Papers, Please", etc in my mind. I'm a freedom-lover. To hell with that concept.
I'm saying we can solve the problem by working on what causes it. You've cited the cause. Let's fix it.
There shouldn't be any "under the table" employment available, period. Anybody who wants to, tries to, DOES engage in employing people illegally should be put under the jailhouse, man. They are both exploiting unfortunate and desperate people (the ONLY ones who'd accept these employment offers, I think we agree) AND they are cheating the rest of us who do work within the systen legally by shifting their burden to us.
Think. If you want to employ the services of another human, do it right and pay for it legally. Anything less is unacceptable.
OR_GO_TO_JAIL.
We've eliminated slavery and indentured servitude, lets fix this too.
If we instituted that, don't you think it would go a long way toward eliminating the kind of jobs that you complain illegals seek in your community?
It would also create a new pool of jobs that are compensated for properly (some of that work is gonna get done, its just a price negotiation now).
Then, if we get there, we can discuss how to allow foreign nationals a way to legally seek the jobs that legal residents can't/won't/don't fill.
And we end up with a lot more people on the books, in the system, paying their own way.
Eye on the ball, man, eye on the ball. Eliminate the REASONS our systems are being abused and the OPPORTUNITIES for people to employ others in ways that encourage that and we're a lot better off.
culero
-
I'm really curious to hear how you think a pro-active approach like this compares to "build a fence and throw 'em back over it".
Any comments?
culero
-
Originally posted by lazs2
"...some spoke decent english.. a few spoke unaccented english (including my girlfriend)..."
What did I say? Know their women carnally.
I am telling you straight up... Lazs is bleeding edge technology.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
snip
we had a great time shooting. To tell the truth... I have more hope for an America populated with these folks than one populated byu kerrie voting girlymen.
lazs
Local guy I know named Martin Rios is the fastest practical pistol shooter I've ever had the pleasure to watch shoot. I dunno if you've ever seen pin shooting? Think times in the 3+ seconds category. Scary to watch.
I've shot with LOTS of chicanos, and in my experience they tend to be pretty handy with guns. I dunno why, cultural thing? But for sure its true.
culero
-
Yes Culero... tired for now though... tomorrow?
-
Originally posted by Steve
Yes Culero... tired for now though... tomorrow?
yaya me too tired
mañana :)