Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on March 05, 2005, 05:35:58 PM
-
Anyone else experience this? I gotta think the odds against FIVE pilot wounds in five flights are a little short of astronomical.
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Anyone else experience this? I gotta think the odds against FIVE pilot wounds in five flights are a little short of astronomical.
Hey, look on the bright side, you're an ace at it :p
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Anyone else experience this? I gotta think the odds against FIVE pilot wounds in five flights are a little short of astronomical.
I've had that happen in the Mossie. You pay some pretty big penalties for not having that engine block in front of you in AH.
-
Well, if they were all HO I'd have to agree with you. But they weren't. Besides, five in a row is a little much regardless of the plane layout. The odds just ain't reasonable.
-
Originally posted by Vudak
Hey, look on the bright side, you're an ace at it :p
YUP CAp, thing is ya didnt duck way down in cockpit, like I do LOL
-
you might want to stop leaning out when thumbing your nose.
-
I don't see anything strange about it.
Its quite common to get shot down five times in a row. So, for each of those five instances, you survived a hit to the cockpit which in other/worse circumstances would easily have been a pilot death, and thus counted as a shotdown.
You should actually consider yourself lucky.
-
Nevermind.:rolleyes:
-
I never get pilot wounds from other players. All of my pilot wounds lately have been the result of AI field gunners or puffy ack.
ack-ack
-
i agree, 5 in a row is strange luck.
i found in AH1, if a pnsr shot me with pintle gun, instant pilot wound, always.
maybe a P38 bug somewhere?
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Well, if they were all HO I'd have to agree with you. But they weren't. Besides, five in a row is a little much regardless of the plane layout. The odds just ain't reasonable.
Mine are usually from tail guns or GV pintle guns.
I don't think I can ever recall being shot at by a Panzer IV H's pintle gun and not getting a pilot wound immediately.
-
Originally posted by mechanic
i agree, 5 in a row is strange luck.
i found in AH1, if a pnsr shot me with pintle gun, instant pilot wound, always.
maybe a P38 bug somewhere?
I'm not going to slinging charges about a bug, odd as it was. But the five were all low percentage snap shots from bad angles, I only died from one, the other four I landed. I do hear P-38 fliers speak of pilot wounds at a far higher rate than others, and I've never heard anyone from HTC say there was a valid reason (say, maybe pilot position or something).
-
You're right Virgil. I've had more pilot hits during the past couple months than I had during my entire career in AH1.
It might have something to do with improved damage modeling, or be just a bug. HT knows.
-
whenever I fly the 38 a good bit I tend to see more pilot wounds.I can put half the plane between me and the source of incoming fire and still get hit.I think the 38 is prone to pilot wounds.This is assuming you were flyin the 38.if not forget this babble
"A bandit at your six is better than no bandit at all"
Pipz
-
i seem to be rtb'n all the time due to pilot wounds in a 38.
other night, my first two flights ended to puffy ack. talk about upset! then i read about how some people have never died to puffy ack in 3 years, how nice for them :rolleyes:
-
Truly i have em alot too thanks to puffy ai ack.
But also by other planes.
On the other hand i don't get oil smeared windshields as much as other planes.
I indeed too have more pilot wounds than i had in AH1.
I feel truly that way.
And i don't whine about anything here much do i ??
-
Well, there's good pilots, unlucky pilots and lucky pilots. Which area do you think you might fall into? :)
I'd rather be lucky :D
Ren
-
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
you might want to stop leaning out when thumbing your nose.
Bingo :)
culero (seriously, has noticed this in P38 too)
-
It's possible that the new damage model now results in more realistic level of pilot hits than earlier.
-
well considering p-38 pie-lits have bigger than average heads...
-
Originally posted by Shane
well considering p-38 pie-lits have bigger than average heads...
:rofl
-
I almost always fly the mossie, but I'm on the road currently, sans joystick, so I've been in panzers a lot. I can get hits on some aircraft with the mg, don't shoot many down.
With the exception of the mossie, which either drops almost immediately, or beetles off back home, apparently with a pilot wound.
So, I reckon there is something to the "auto pilot-wound" whine.
-
Naw Sav, it's just that my zeke isn't there anymore to finish the job right. :D
Give it a week, I'll cure your pile-it wound blues with a 1-2 doses of black smoke plumes washed down with a healthy glass of radient flames. ;)
-
The p38's all get pilot wounds because of how the damage model is set up,the '38's cockpit has only 3 major damage hit box's pilot and gear/guns "well you can cound each gun and its hit box,but i only count the pilot, gear and the total nose weapon system"
chances are,if any shots hit the window,or under the pilot,you will be killed,or suffer pilot wounded.
if the bullets hit your "nose" from above your gonna take major weapon damage,point being, the pilots in p'38's are the thing to aim for,granted pilot's are located almost perfectly in the center of the planes shape,anyone with a .50 can take out a '38.
p38's have two easy spots to hit,the wingtips and the main cockpit, in a head on if you come off at 400 and fire at the wing tip area as you split s and come back around,you should manage some damage,if the p38 comes back around,aim for hit cockpit,if anything your ammo will miss and hit some other "semi" vital plane part,such as engines, rudders,elivator control,and semi system because the p38 has x2 of each basic sub system, x2 rudders, x2 elivators, x2 engines, so it can soak up alot of damage,but each vital hit makes it less and less combatable.
even if you end up dieing, at least he wont come out of the fight unharmed.
If you get a jump on the '38 from under or above, aim for the little cockpit pod,you will kill him very quickly,even x2 .50's on a sbd can bring a '38 down.
Sometimes amazeing how little damage can be done to a p38 from 800 yards out,and resaults in a pilot being killed "they blow up instantly"
I just think its how the plane was set up. and also i know the p38's get pilots wounded alot in janes ww2 fighters, WB. Euro air war, b17 mighty eighth, cfs, fighter ace, maby it was just something that happend alot to p38's
:confused:
-
Ive been getting alot more also ...
-
Originally posted by killnu
i seem to be rtb'n all the time due to pilot wounds in a 38.
other night, my first two flights ended to puffy ack. talk about upset! then i read about how some people have never died to puffy ack in 3 years, how nice for them :rolleyes:
Killnu shoots himself to get attention:)
-
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Truly i have em alot too thanks to puffy ai ack.
On the other hand i don't get oil smeared windshields as much as other planes.
if ya talking about the P38, there is a very good reason why you dont get oil on your windscreen..... ;)
-
Don't understand why anyone would shoot at the 38 canopy or nose. It's sooooooo much easier to blast off that silly tail 2 tail 'vader. Then u get to watch the 38 do what it does best: the flipi-dy flop-idy dance O' death (TM) to terra firma. :D
-
Originally posted by Scrap
Don't understand why anyone would shoot at the 38 canopy or nose. It's sooooooo much easier to blast off that silly tail 2 tail 'vader. Then u get to watch the 38 do what it does best: the flipi-dy flop-idy dance O' death (TM) to terra firma. :D
What's odd about that is how hard it really would be to take the tail off of a P-38, and how rarely it happened.
-
LOL not in AH. Couple 20s at close range slice through it like buttah baby!
-
Why would it be any harder than any other plane?
It wasn't structured with titanium or something.
-
LOL not in AH. Couple 20s at close range slice through it like buttah baby!
20mm dweeb :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
i bet u talk about typh run and ho tactics,
-
Savage,
Please post the circumference of your head....did you ever get teased as a kid for being a "waterhead" ????
hehe
;)
Balsy
-
Being that there are hundreds of rounds converging on a small area, and just 1 of those can kill you, and the fact that the human body is centered in the most aimed at space on the plane, and takes up a considerable area of that space, we are lucky we arent killed outright, everytime our planes are shot at.
I dont think we realize the volume of fire, and the carnage that is created when 6 50s are unleashed upon you, if even for a second.
-
Not much damage considering the current hitting power of the .50s. Use a different argument.
Ren
-
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
20mm dweeb :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
i bet u talk about typh run and ho tactics,
Wow how far off could you get?
Hint: the 20s I speak of are Type 99s
...or you could look at my posts above :D
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
Why would it be any harder than any other plane?
It wasn't structured with titanium or something.
For the benefit of those who would actually read and think about it:
Consider for a moment that the tail of the P-38 is unlike the tail of any other fighter plane from World War II. One look and that fact should be very obvious to even the most uninitiated.
As far as how tough the tail was, it was tough enough to permanently deflect over 12" when pulling out of a compression dive and not snap off.
The two booms are several feet apart (You can't stand between them and touch them both at the same time).
The booms are very narrow once you get behind the radiators (which is where the tail breaks off in AH). So narrow in fact that in real life enemy pilots were quick to mention that they were near impossible to hit there.
At any point where the weight of fire from an enemy plane would be heavy enough to do serious structural damage to one boom, the other boom would almost certainly not even be hit.
In order to break the tail off like happens in AH, you'd have to cut both booms nearly in two, or cut one completely in two and cut the other one near half way through. It just ain't real likely if you think about it.
Think about it for a minute. Consider the fact that the P-38 itself has a 30" circle of fire at any effective distance. Now consider that several times I've cut the tail off of another P-38. Now, a 30" circle of fire ain't even gonna come close tohitting both booms, period. So I should practically never be able to cut the tail completely off of a P-38 with a P-38. But it happens often.
The natural tendency is to aim dead center of what you're shooting at. And you'll generally shoot where you look and where you aim. Ever looked at the tail of a P-38? Only the elevator is in the center. From the elevator forward to the wing is empty air space. That is why enemy pilots often commented that the back of a P-38 was hard to hit, and hard to hurt. When you consider that the center nacelle, and both the twin booms, are as narrow, or even more narrow, than the fuselage on most planes, you'll realize that the P-38 is only a big target if you're shooting the elevator or across the wing. Every where else, from above, below, and the side, it actually has a relatively narrow profile where vital areas are. Compare profiles with a lot of other fighters, and you'll see that from many angles, the P-38 just does not present as big a target as you think. The vital areas are well seperated as well.
I cannot remember seeing any film of the tail of a P-38 being shot off. I cannot remember reading about any P-38 pilot seeing one get shot off, nor having one shot off. I do remember reading about a collision between two P-38's where the wing of one sliced the tail off of another. But then, the wing has a massive stainless steel spar in it. I also cannot remember ever reading about a German or Japanese pilot claiming to have shot the tail off of a P-38. It may have happened, I just haven't read, seen, or heard of it. I'd like to see evidence of it, it'd make the tail coming off of a P-38 in AH a lot more believable.
-
Originally posted by Balsy
Savage,
Please post the circumference of your head....did you ever get teased as a kid for being a "waterhead" ????
hehe
;)
Balsy
I wear a 7 3/8" Stetson Trophy Bull Rider hat.
-
i see your point savage, but...
travelling at speed up to and exceding 350mph the pressures on the tail is quite obvious.
now consider a good shot to the left hand boom, and all structural support from this boom being eliminated.
now consider the extreme forces that have been transfered from two booms to just one and it's obvious why the whole tail section breaks off.
even with no damage surely a single boom has no chance of hold the tail plane solidly after the other boom has been severed.
I'm no physician tho, so i could be wrong.
-
I believe you are searching for the term physicist. But engineer would be a better choice.
I'm not saying it is impossible, that was not the point. The point was it would be extremely difficult, as witnessed by the lack of gun camera or other footage showing it, and the lack of reports of it happening. As often as it happens in AH, if it were realistic, there'd be truckloads of reports and a couple hundred feet of film of it.
Further, while you might think it would not be too difficult to actually saw one boom off with gunfire, it would actually be pretty tough. If I still had some of my old pics, I'd try to post one that shows a P-38 with one boom shot near to rags, mostly held together by stressed sheetmetal skin. You'd have figured it would rip off, but it barely deformed the other side.
It should be theoretically possible to shoot the tail off of a P-38, but you should probably have to see 50 or more shot down before you saw it happen.
In all honesty, it was pretty uncommon (at least from all the gun camera footage I've seen and all the reports/interviews I've read) to see the tail just come off of any fighter plane.
Perhaps it's just a "damage level marker" that shows a certain level of damage has occured, and the plane no longer remains flyable.
-
Difficult for rifle-calibre or HMGs, no doubt.
For cannons? No reason why not.
But the problem is the limited instances and depiction of how damge is applied to each part. When a part is damaged in AH, there's no 'middle point' to it. There's no tattered, holed, drilled, dangling, and etc etc.. concerning damage.
It is all-or-nothing.
So what happens if somebody lands a lot of shots on one of the booms with .50s or rifle-calibre MGs? In real life it'd probably need not only a helluva lot of shots, but also a lucky 'pattern' that is grouped in a right way to not just tear open the skins but literally sever the internal structures so that particular boom is either ripped off or buckles under pressure.
However, AFAIK there's no such 'internal structures' modelled in AH - whereever a bullet connects, the damage is calculated, and when a certain line has been crossed, the part is damaged. And since there's no such thing as 'partially damaged' status in AH, a damaged boom is a structurally busted boom - therefore, it falls off. This isn't particular with the P-38. It's a global DM issue.
If a more sophisticated DM was developed, many things are prone to change concerning combat is dealt in AH.
Just look at the incredible changes in gunnery-related realism when Pyro merely 'enhanced' the 'hit detection' a bit better than it used to be in AH1 - the average kill distance was cut down full 300 yards. As much, a new, more sophisticated DM would be almost traumatic to some people in that the scope of combat could be changed to something different in its entirety, once more.
In this particular case you brought up, it would apply to all other planes as well, and the chances of causing a structural failure to many of the planes in AH would become extremely low. HMG armed planes will be complaining on how they can't shoot down anything directly. On the other hand, the differences between cannon rounds and machine guns would come more pronounced, and HMG armed planes would probably develop different methods of bringing down a target plane.
But I digress. At any rate, one can only hope. A better, more sophisticated DM would surely be a good thing, no matter how much fuss it causes initially. It'd benefit the P-38 in this case you brought up, but it'd also benefit every other plane for that matter.
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm not saying it is impossible, that was not the point. The point was it would be extremely difficult, as witnessed by the lack of gun camera or other footage showing it, and the lack of reports of it happening. As often as it happens in AH, if it were realistic, there'd be truckloads of reports and a couple hundred feet of film of it.
Further, while you might think it would not be too difficult to actually saw one boom off with gunfire, it would actually be pretty tough. If I still had some of my old pics, I'd try to post one that shows a P-38 with one boom shot near to rags, mostly held together by stressed sheetmetal skin. You'd have figured it would rip off, but it barely deformed the other side.
It should be theoretically possible to shoot the tail off of a P-38, but you should probably have to see 50 or more shot down before you saw it happen.
In all honesty, it was pretty uncommon (at least from all the gun camera footage I've seen and all the reports/interviews I've read) to see the tail just come off of any fighter plane.
Unfortunately, your talking RL versus virtual reality. Until you get that part through your head the thought process you are using might be considered valid. Think about it for a minute.
How many P-38'z do you honest think actually had enemy planes all over their 6 in a real life
dogfight? Let alone put X amount of round onto their tail feathers? Heck, many p-38's were actually shot down due to actual dogfights in the war? And of those, how many folks were left walking around to say they had their tails shot off?
Now take the same scenario where you see 4 guys behind some poor dude in a 38 or even one guy behind some 38 and he's got his trigger firmly pressed on the trigger at 200-300 yds out the odds, IN THE GAME, are pretty good the 38's gonna lose some tail feathers.
Game vs RL = two different animals entirely.
Ren
-
Originally posted by Scrap
Don't understand why anyone would shoot at the 38 canopy or nose. It's sooooooo much easier to blast off that silly tail 2 tail 'vader. Then u get to watch the 38 do what it does best: the flipi-dy flop-idy dance O' death (TM) to terra firma. :D
Sav, I think you missed what I was trying to say.
"tail 2 tail 'vader" = elevator
I hardley ever shoot the entire tail section off of a P38. It takes too much ammo to blow away one (or two) of the booms neccessary to split the plane in 2. Usually I'll see the 'vader drop and the plane goes spinning to the turf with both tails n' rudders attached.