Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Steve on March 06, 2005, 01:21:26 PM
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Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena, shot and wounded after being freed in Iraq, said Sunday U.S. forces may have deliberately targeted her because Washington opposed Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.
She offered no evidence for her claim...
ROFL!
I sure hope this gets sorted out. If those troops werver mistaken, an awful mistake.
Of course, it's IMPOSSIBLE that the vehicle could have been speeding. It's ALWAYS AMREEKA's fault.
My condolences to the deceased and family.
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Sounds like she sustained a serious head injury. Pity to see people exploit a situation to forward their political goals.
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No one will recall her name in a week
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Don't be silly.. she will have a book deal, do the talk show circuit and a movie within the year... Best thing to happen to her in her life. Now she has the visibility to spread her views worldwide and profit off it like a good communist.
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Got a link to the story? Is it Italy that rejects the U.S. Version of the incident, or is it this Italian *****?
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If they deliberately targetted her, she'd be alot quieter..no
really..alot.
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Originally posted by Rino
If they deliberately targetted her, she'd be alot quieter..no
really..alot.
That's what I was thinking.
And now the world doesnt like the fact that the US doesnt make it a point to negotiate with terrorists?
I'd hate to be on the recieving end of this policy but it's solid. If we handed out millions of dollars and met wacky demands it would spure this kind of activity all over the world. The reason it's still done now is two fold:
1) It gives them publicity to their cause
2) Some European country will give in and try to appease them.
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"the world"? LOL.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
That's what I was thinking.
And now the world doesnt like the fact that the US doesnt make it a point to negotiate with terrorists?
Would be nice if the US government followed it own policy. Not that I believe the Italian journalist's claim. If we wanted her quiet, she'd be quiet. But I do remember a little scandal awhile ago were the US traded some arms for hostages...
ack-ack
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Originally posted by SOB
"the world"? LOL.
ok ok.....Eruope
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Would be nice if the US government followed it own policy. Not that I believe the Italian journalist's claim. If we wanted her quiet, she'd be quiet. But I do remember a little scandal awhile ago were the US traded some arms for hostages...
ack-ack
IIRC that was more than "awhile ago" and it wasn't really a "sponsored" US operation. Thus the whole "scandle" portion of it.
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IIRC that was more than "awhile ago" and it wasn't really a "sponsored" US operation. Thus the whole "scandle" portion of it
It was "sponsered" by the national security adviser and defence secretary, iirc, and I don't think anyone seriously believes Reagan didn't authorise it.
The really controversial part was the transfer of the proceeds to the Contras, which might not have been authorised by the government.
America also pressurised Israel into releasing 700 Lebanese prisoners in order to release US hostages on the hijacked TWA flight in 1985.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
ok ok.....Eruope
Isn't the UK part of Europe?
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Lets see, we have M1 Abrams tanks there, cannons, mortars, shoulder fired rockets, snipers, claymores, Apache Helicopters, Spectre gunships, F16 aircraft, etc, and she thinks we wanted to kill her and weren't able to do it?
Yeah, right.
Most probably just another example of not accepting the results of your actions, in this case driving towards an American military checkpoint at night, on the most dangerous highway in Iraq, and not taking all precautions and stopping when approaching that checkpoint.
A tragic situation to be sure, but I think it is very easy to believe they weren't trying to assassinate her. If they had been trying, she would be dead.
Exactly who gave her first aid, evacuated her to an aid station, then saw that she was given over to the Italian officials afterwards?
dago
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Originally posted by LePaul
No one will recall her name in a week
Or less.
what was her name again?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Would be nice if the US government followed it own policy. Not that I believe the Italian journalist's claim. If we wanted her quiet, she'd be quiet. But I do remember a little scandal awhile ago were the US traded some arms for hostages...
ack-ack
LMAO that was 4 presidents and 5 administrations ago.
My bad
6
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Originally posted by Dago
Lets see, we have M1 Abrams tanks there, cannons, mortars, shoulder fired rockets, snipers, claymores, Apache Helicopters, Spectre gunships, F16 aircraft, etc, and she thinks we wanted to kill her and weren't able to do it?
dago
Maybe she is somehow related to or the reincarnation of Crazy Horse LMAO
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This is totally outrageous! I can't believe the ineptitude of our forces in Iraq! If there were any justice those responsible for the wounding of the Italian journalist shoud be made to answer for how they botched this assination attempt, given the awaiting ambush style of the Italian version of events...they should have been able to destroy that car and all its occupants, if that was the mission.
As far as what the Italians, or any other Euros, think I believe they have already folded their hands and are now watching the action from afar.
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Originally posted by Airhead
This is totally outrageous! I can't believe the ineptitude of our forces in Iraq! If there were any justice those responsible for the wounding of the Italian journalist shoud be made to answer for how they botched this assination attempt, given the awaiting ambush style of the Italian version of events...they should have been able to destroy that car and all its occupants, if that was the mission.
As far as what the Italians, or any other Euros, think I believe they have already folded their hands and are now watching the action from afar.
Hey Chief, I think you are missing an 'a-s-s' somewhere...unless you are counting yourself.
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ignore airhead, he is being an obnoxious bellybutton because he enjoys it.
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Originally posted by Drunky
Hey Chief, I think you are missing an 'a-s-s' somewhere...unless you are counting yourself.
Zing!
Drunky pondered that one for a good 20 minutes though.
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No Yeager, what I'm saying is there's no hidden agendas where soldiers assigned to checkpoint watches prevent vehicles from running their checkpoint, which is what this vehicle attempted to do. There was no agenda to assinate thewse people...and if there was they botched it, right?
Or do you believe there was an assination attempt and our soldiers knew exactly what they were doing?
Let me know Yeager. i'm dying to know if you think we deliberately targeted this Italian journalist for assination.
:rolleyes:
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Drunky, you're clever when you drink. Seriously. Post more.
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ummm isnt this a double post? there was already a thread going...
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Sgrena wrote in Sunday's issue of her communist newspaper Il Manifesto
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Originally posted by Airhead
No Yeager, what I'm saying is there's no hidden agendas where soldiers assigned to checkpoint watches prevent vehicles from running their checkpoint, which is what this vehicle attempted to do. There was no agenda to assinate thewse people...and if there was they botched it, right?
Or do you believe there was an assination attempt and our soldiers knew exactly what they were doing?
Let me know Yeager. i'm dying to know if you think we deliberately targeted this Italian journalist for assination.
:rolleyes:
The word of the day folks is (say it with me now):
ASSASSINATE
Karaya
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As has already been said, if the plan was to assasinate this chick, then there would be no more chick.
She's nuts.... or suffering from post traumatic holy-shiat-we're-all-going-to-die dissorder.
Reminds me of the botched initial rescue attempt of that hero convoy chick survivor from the olden days. Jessica something.
The doctors had a plan, snuck her into an ambulance, and secreted her away only to have their ambulance get shot to hell, forcing them to beat a hasty retreat back to the hospital.
Lets face it, there's alotta kids there who had no idea that joining the guard (this was a guard unit) would come to this. I'd be kinda jittery myself, and would probably swear up and down and sideways that the camel I just blew to kingdom come was not only speeding, but looking at me funny as well.
War is hell. Whaddyagonnado?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The word of the day folks is (say it with me now):
ASSASSINATE
Karaya
d'Oh!
I spelled it wrong too.
Maybe it's a subconscious type of thing for all of us 'assassinate' misspellers. Too much bellybutton in just one word.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Drunky, you're clever when you drink. Seriously. Post more.
Didn't mean to get your panties in a wad.
But you did mispell assassination. Hence the a-s-s.
And as far as a public type apology...
I dont' disagree with your comments. I'm sure the people at the checkpoint did what they needed to do.
I'm also sure that the Italian lady is very upset after her ordeal.
Maybe you can ask her to take you for a walk on the beach after your ordeal, you squealing pansy.
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Now we can hope that some film of the incident turns up and one side or the other has to eat their crow publicly without salt.
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she works for a communist italian news paper
what a loving ..tender soul
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Lol!
Pssst Drunky, you misspelled the word "misspell"
:lol
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I just fear that the rest of the world actually believes her and will only make things worse than they already are.
Good post Nash
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the film will show that her head moved back and to the left from the gunshot proving that the real shooter was behind the sandy dune.
lazs
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I know that is impossible here to have a rational and correct discussion when some kind of accidents happens, expecially when the US military forces are involved, but, since I am a stubborn stupid Italian, I want to give my useless contribute.
Fact:
1) A car carrying the ex-hostage and few secret agents has been shot by american troops.
2) One of the agents died protecting with his body the hostage.
3) During the operation the agents were in continuos contact with the central command in Italy, and the plane was ready to take off on the RWY of Bagdad Airport.
4) The agents already made operations before in the same ambiental situation, including the recover of the other 2 italian female hostages.
5) Due to facts 1 and 2, Berlusconi, Italian prime minister, called the US ambassador for clarification.
6) Due to facts 5, the US president, Bush and C. Rice called the respective counterparts of the Italian government to express their feelings for the unfortunate accident.
7) consequently of fact 6 the US president has called the pentagon to actively search for the truth, assuring Italy's prime minister that he will be informed of any discovering.
8) Afaik, the pentagon has not taken any position on the event, probably waiting for the findings of the inquiry, to avoid dangerous mistakes (remember the wedding party case?)
Up here and now, theese are the known facts.
Declarations:
1) The surviving agents affirm that the car was not speeding, and that it was'nt a check point, thay declare that, while moving on the highway, an APV suddenly opened the lights from nowhere, and immediatly opened fire on the car, and took a while before the soldiers realized that they were shooting a friendly car, and after the gunfire they took away all the satellitar phones from the victims, realizing they were still in contact with Italy.
2) the "Checkpoint" version has appeared only in US press, immediately after the incident, it's not official. (AFAIK)
The rest is political BS, or the reaction of a shocked woman.
We have to wait for the conclusion of the inquiry, before wage Hyperbolic accusations of a killing attempt in Clancy's style, or blaming the dead to have attracted bullets coming from nowhere.
In the meantime, I praise you to respect a man that gave his life to protect the hostage, even if it's not an american guy.
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It must be a cultural thing..you know...the inability of some nations and their people to admit a mistake was made.
Gotta be cultural.
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Do you think insanity of this degree is cultural?
Signora Sgrena has claimed that US troops may have deliberately targeted her armoured escape vehicle as it sped toward Baghdad Airport shortly after her release. She says that America might have wanted to kill her because it opposes Italy's policy of paying ransom to Iraqi kidnappers.
Do you think all Italians are so divorced from reality?
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Good point Curval.
Anyway, I place my bet that in the end the error will be pointed in some area of the secret world of the secret services of both countries, were some secret information has been secretly lost.
And, since, the secret guilty is a secret person, nobody will be responsable and we will be asked to forget and go along.
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Well, however it turns out, we should all remember that it is ALL the AMERICAN'S FAULT and that they most likely did it deliberately.
That much, at least, we know for sure already, right?
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Originally posted by Toad
Do you think insanity of this degree is cultural?
Do you think all Italians are so divorced from reality?
Mr. Toad, please, miss Sgrena is an Italian, but this dont mean that what she guess is what all the italian guess, not in my case anyway.
Anyway, it's true that our history, expecialy of the years from 1970s to 1980s, has leaved us with a light paranoid syndrome.
Justifiable, considering what various processes have discovered about state sponsored terrorism.
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Yet you think Curval made a good point.
You don't see it? Reread your posts. It's a comedy.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, however it turns out, we should all remember that it is ALL the AMERICAN'S FAULT and that they most likely did it deliberately.
That much, at least, we know for sure already, right?
Wrong.
But if you want to continue with your "victimization", who am I to ask for a calm and rational discussion?
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LOL!
Calm and rational?
You've already donned the tin foil hat!
Naso:
Anyway, I place my bet that in the end the error will be pointed in some area of the secret world of the secret services of both countries, were some secret information has been secretly lost
It was the second shooter from the grassy knoll, right Naso? The one secretly sent by the Illuminati and the CFR?
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Naso,
I don't think folks here disagree with your points. What pisses folks off is her rediculous statements after the fact that make it tough to believe that she has any sense of honor or decency. Very few people were there and actually know the facts of the case. At a minimum it was a cruel twist of fate.
For her to exploit the death of her savior for political gains is just disgusting at the most basic level. Not only is she fanning the flames of hate with obvious lies for personal gain , she is endangering many more lives of which she has not right.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yet you think Curval made a good point.
You don't see it? Reread your posts. It's a comedy.
Curval made a good point, because, and you can see it here in this same thread and in the other, a lot of people immediatly jumped to affirm.... well... look by yourself.
I suggest you to reread my posts, and point me were I have taken a personal position on the fact.
I have even separated the known facts from the opinions, or point of view, of the same people involved in the accident.
I have yet to blame someone for this, since I have not enough informations.
And, believe me, Sgrena's theory is not my opinion, absolutely.
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Toad, if I had just gotten released and then my own "team" started shooting at me I might be a little pissed off...especially when people DIED in the car. I think she is wrong in her assertion that the US did it on purpose. That was NOT the point of my post, which was more directed at those people saying things like "Well, if we did want to kill her she'd be dead" or "She's a commie, so it's okay for us to shoot at her" or "BLAME AMERIKA it's all our fault". Newsflash....it was the fault of Americans.
I haven't seen one post that says "It looks like we screwed up and I hope things are being done to ensure this doesn't happen again."
That is my "good point".
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL!
Calm and rational?
You've already donned the tin foil hat!
It was the second shooter from the grassy knoll, right Naso? The one secretly sent by the Illuminati and the CFR?
Jesus, Toad, the irony just flew over your head, uh?
I will use more cinical and easy words:
Both countries will investigate, and since neither of the two will be happy to admit to have made the mistake, whoever has made it, they will both blame the gult in the loss of information in the area between the two respective secret services, saving the known party involved (the Italian secret service agents in the car, and the soldiers of the patrol, or the checkpoint), and blaming the responsability somewhere in the unknow world of interalliance communications, practically, nobody.
Everyone is happy, move along.
I've been clear?
No tiny foil hat, just realpolitik.
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Originally posted by Curval
it was the fault of Americans.
I haven't seen one post that says "It looks like we screwed up and I hope things are being done to ensure this doesn't happen again."
That is my "good point".
Total BS, Curv.
You were not there and do not know what took place.
If someone decides to commit suicide by running at a cop waving a knife, is the cops fault?
I guess so in your assertion.
If they ran the checkpoint, or committed negligent acts that put them in harms way in a freaking combat zone, they are to blame.
No one knows what happened yet so please don't rush to point fingers.
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So why did they pay ransom for a reporter who knew the risk when she went there? From what I have read she works for a communist news paper and was sent to dig up dirt on coalition forces. Her paper, (I assume) paid the ransom knowing that this would pay for itself in stories.
It smells bad, to twist this to an American screw up is missing the point. The bottom line is, They paid terrorist for kidnaping their reporter.
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Originally posted by Krusher
So why did they pay ransom for a reporter who knew the risk when she went there? From what I have read she works for a communist news paper and was sent to dig up dirt on coalition forces. Her paper, (I assume) paid the ransom knowing that this would pay for itself in stories.
It smells bad, to twist this to an American screw up is missing the point. The bottom line is, They paid terrorist for kiddnaping their reporter.
And the money they paid will go into buying bullets and bombs to kill American solidiers and Iraqi Civilians.
Maybe it will pay for the weapons used to kidnap another Italian Journalist. Ironic, huh.
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I am going to jump to conclusions without knowing the full story.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I am going to jump to conclusions without knowing the full story.
-SW
**** you dip****. I'm going to defend the US's actions without knowing the full story, you yurapein ****!
-SW
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(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/3dlil/uhh.gif)
-SW
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
And the money they paid will go into buying bullets and bombs to kill American solidiers and Iraqi Civilians.
Maybe it will pay for the weapons used to kidnap another Italian Journalist. Ironic, huh.
My gut feeling is this was planned out and this lady knew it.
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Originally posted by Krusher
My gut feeling is this was planned out and this lady knew it.
Huh?
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Total BS, Curv.
You were not there and do not know what took place.
Neither you.
No one knows what happened yet so please don't rush to point fingers.
In the same post YOU are pointing your finger.
Raise the hand:
If someone decides to commit suicide by running at a cop waving a knife, is the cops fault?
Point the finger:
If they ran the checkpoint, or committed negligent acts that put them in harms way in a freaking combat zone, they are to blame.
see?
Have to go, cya later all.
P.S.
ROTFL @ Wulfe :)
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Originally posted by Curval
Newsflash....it was the fault of Americans.
Ah, ok. Thanks, Curv. Can you give me a link to the final reports of the investigating parties?
It's a relief to know that the incident has been completely investigated and everything is now known.
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Huh?
I think, (and I may be wrong) she was in on her own kidnapping..
just a feeling
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You miss the "if" in his post Naso. It's the "big if" everyone talks about.
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Originally posted by Toad
You miss the "if" in his post Naso. It's the "big if" everyone talks about.
Give him a break. English is not his native language.
Besides, Curval already solved the case...
Nothing more to see here.
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lol
Fine, I wasn't there and I don't know what happened.
Besides...she's just a commie, and we can't go pointing fingers at the evil Boooosh, no-one will admit their mistakes because the CIA and the Italian "agency" is involved...etc etc etc.
We will have to wait and see.
One thing is for sure...they are going to dig an American bullet out of an ally. That is what I meant by the newsflash comment. An American pulled the trigger....it wasn't the gun's fault.
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Total BS, Curv.
If someone decides to commit suicide by running at a cop waving a knife, is the cops fault?
If a man jumps into a lions den to try and baptize it, do we blame the lion when he gets mauled or the man for doing something stupid?
You see Curval, no one knows what happened and regardless of whose bullet is in the man's head, if they did something negligent, they may be responsible for their own fate.
Wait and see.
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If the Italians paid the Terrorist to release that women, they should be punished.
Where the hell is the ransom money going to go? TO PAY FOR MORE WEAPONS TO KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS!!!!
for one journalist..... they just funded our enemies.... I say that is a damn good reason to take out the people in that operation.
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Im sure CID is all over this one.
As long as the investigation results are transparent and not full of political CYA I would think the troops actions will be found to be within the rules of engagement.
shamus
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Originally posted by Curval
lol
One thing is for sure...they are going to dig an American bullet out of an ally. That is what I meant by the newsflash comment. An American pulled the trigger....it wasn't the gun's fault.
An individual pulled the trigger under unknown circumstances. They happened to be American. It was a individual decision under complex circumstances not a matter of policy.
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Originally posted by Steve
Lol!
Pssst Drunky, you misspelled the word "misspell"
:lol
At least someone caught it.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
An individual pulled the trigger under unknown circumstances. They happened to be American. It was a individual decision under complex circumstances not a matter of policy.
I have already stated that I did not think it was done on purpose. I personally think it was an accident.
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Look guys we italian are sure that no serius investigation will be done. Thats the america's way to do it. Do you remember Cermis accident in Italy? A low flying Prowler killed 20 people. The pilot disobeyed the order of no flying below 2,000ft. The navigator destroyed the tape (flight recorder) of the flight. Both are free and without any trial.
The truth is simple some trigger happy untrained guys have targeted a car with 3 italian army men and an hostage with no warning and not near a check-point (thats what survivors are saying to our police and judges). A bloody accident. War is hell. Honor to the service man who covered the body of the hostage with his.
BTW, you know, it is funny how most of you american ppl speak about other lives, both allied and enemy. Just bodies to counts. Cowboys? Even Pat Garret had more respect of Billy The Kid when killed him.
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Originally posted by gatt
Look guys we italian are sure that no serius investigation will be done. Thats the america's way to do it. Do you remember Cermis accident in Italy? A low flying Prowler killed 20 people. The pilot disobeyed the order of no flying below 2,000ft. The navigator destroyed the tape (flight recorder) of the flight. Both are free and without any trial.
The truth is simple some trigger happy untrained guys have targeted a car with 3 italian army men and an hostage with no warning and not near a check-point (thats what survivors are saying to our police and judges). A bloody accident. War is hell. Honor to the service man who covered the body of the hostage with his.
BTW, you know, it is funny how most of you american ppl speak about other lives, both allied and enemy. Just bodies to counts. Cowboys? Even Pat Garret had more respect of Billy The Kid when killed him.
And you call us biased?
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Originally posted by gatt
Look guys we italian are sure that no serius investigation will be done. Thats the america's way to do it. Do you remember Cermis accident in Italy? A low flying Prowler killed 20 people. The pilot disobeyed the order of no flying below 2,000ft. The navigator destroyed the tape (flight recorder) of the flight. Both are free and without any trial.
The truth is simple some trigger happy untrained guys have targeted a car with 3 italian army men and an hostage with no warning and not near a check-point (thats what survivors are saying to our police and judges). A bloody accident. War is hell. Honor to the service man who covered the body of the hostage with his.
BTW, you know, it is funny how most of you american ppl speak about other lives, both allied and enemy. Just bodies to counts. Cowboys? Even Pat Garret had more respect of Billy The Kid when killed him.
Yepper.
You got it Pardner. We're all cowboys here...shoot first ask questions later.
YEEEEHHAAAAAW!!!
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by gatt
Look guys we italian are sure that no serius investigation will be done. Thats the america's way to do it. Do you remember Cermis accident in Italy? A low flying Prowler killed 20 people. The pilot disobeyed the order of no flying below 2,000ft. The navigator destroyed the tape (flight recorder) of the flight. Both are free and without any trial.
The truth is simple some trigger happy untrained guys have targeted a car with 3 italian army men and an hostage with no warning and not near a check-point (thats what survivors are saying to our police and judges). A bloody accident. War is hell. Honor to the service man who covered the body of the hostage with his.
BTW, you know, it is funny how most of you american ppl speak about other lives, both allied and enemy. Just bodies to counts. Cowboys? Even Pat Garret had more respect of Billy The Kid when killed him.
If your country paid that ransom, they are funding terrorists. Italy has grown a boot.... too bad it wasn't a backbone.
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From an article found on MSN:
"Sgrena — who works for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto, a fierce opponent of the war and a frequent critic of U.S. policy"
Uh, thats all I need to know.
MSN article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/)
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Originally posted by gatt
Do you remember Cermis accident in Italy? A low flying Prowler killed 20 people. The pilot disobeyed the order of no flying below 2,000ft. The navigator destroyed the tape (flight recorder) of the flight. Both are free and without any trial.
They were tried by courts martial; both were punished.
October 27, 1999-Capt Ashby was released from the brig at Camp Lejeune on October 2nd. He was sentenced to 6 months confinement for conviction on charges of obstruction of justice and conspiracy to commit obstruction of justice. He served 5 months and was released early due to good behavior. In addition to confinement, Capt Ashby's sentence included dismissal and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. He will appeal his conviction.
April 6, 1999-Last week, Capt Joseph Schweitzer's trial began on charges of obstruction of justice and conspiracy to commit obstruction of justice. He entered a plea of guilty as part of an arrangement with the prosecution. A panel of Members (military equivalent to a jury) decided that his sentence would be dismissal from the Marine Corps. This is equivalent to a dishonorable discharge.
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I've read some of the most and ridiculous things, and some of the most dreadful opinions on this BBS.
Even more convinced that "this is not America"
But you really scare me guys:(
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
LMAO that was 4 presidents and 5 administrations ago.
My bad
6
Because we haven't violated our own policy within the last 5 years makes us less of a hypocrit nation? The fact is, this country did trade arms for hostages at one time.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by stegor
I've read some of the most and ridiculous things, and some of the most dreadful opinions on this BBS.
Even more convinced that "this is not America"
But you really scare me guys:(
such as?
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Originally posted by mosgood
If your country paid that ransom, they are funding terrorists. Italy has grown a boot.... too bad it wasn't a backbone.
You are right, I dont agree with those paying ransom. We are waging war so we dont have to pay ransom.
Those ppl have paid a ransom so italy is funding terrorism, so that accident is not so terrible? Right? :rolleyes:
The second sentence, just an *******'s sentence. Even you can understand what has been censored.
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Originally posted by Toad
They were tried by courts martial; both were punished.
My god, thats what you call justice for 20 deads :rolleyes: A joke that just some of you can call justice. Give them to italian judges and you'll see them back in USA after 20 years of tough jail.
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I just heard on NPR that the Italian government rejects her view that Americans were targeting her.
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Originally posted by gatt
My god, thats what you call justice for 20 deads :rolleyes: A joke that just some of you can call justice. Give them to italian judges and you'll see them back in USA after 20 years of tough jail.
It was an accident. Yeah they were flying too low but it was not deliberate.
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Originally posted by Raider179
It was an accident. Yeah they were flying too low but it was not deliberate.
And their map was marked incorrectly.
They were acquitted of that, but then retried for obstructing justice after it was learned they burned a video tape of the incident.
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Actually, just communists here believe that she has been deliberately targeted by US troops. A fool idea, imho.
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Originally posted by gatt
My god, thats what you call justice for 20 deads :rolleyes:
No, you'll note I did not call it anything at all.
I merely pointed out that you were incorrect and didn't know what you were talking about when you said:
Both are free and without any trial.
They were tried by courts martial.
Originally posted by gatt
Give them to italian judges and you'll see them back in USA after 20 years of tough jail.
Well, if you were the judge, what sentence would you hand down?
Review the Defense position and then tell us what YOU would do:
During defense testimony on Thursday, Navy Cmdr. Fred Patterson, an expert on visual phenomena, said Ashby's view of the horizon was blocked by mountains when he entered the valley where the ski lift was located. Ashby instead focused on a horizontal line formed by white rocks and buildings at the end of the valley, which left the pilot with the impression that his aircraft was higher than it was, Patterson said.
Patterson said the false horizon could draw a pilot lower and cause him to fly straight through the ski lift cables. In addition, the open valley would have limited his peripheral vision, which might otherwise have indicated the plane was flying too fast, he said.
Defense attorneys also argue that Ashby's charts did not show the Mount Cermis ski lift, and that the jet's altimeter malfunctioned.
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Originally posted by Lizard3
From an article found on MSN:
"Sgrena — who works for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto, a fierce opponent of the war and a frequent critic of U.S. policy"
Uh, thats all I need to know.
MSN article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/)
And thats what feeds the fire.
shamus
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Originally posted by Curval
It must be a cultural thing..you know...the inability of some nations and their people to admit a mistake was made.
Gotta be cultural.
What about being an ass, and defining an entire nation by a few of its citizens' opinions, posted on an Intardnet BBS? I kinda doubt that's cultural, what would you say it is?
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Well, they flew below allowed alt. They didnt hit a simple ski lift, they hit the lines of a (I dunno the translation) big metal box travelling about 20 meters high with 20 skiers inside. A fixed thing with pillars that has been there for years and years. Old maps and malfunctioning altimeter? C'mon, we are Italy but not South America in the '70 and '80 ...
You are simply technically explaining why a couple of idiots did a mistake flying too low. But they had already done the biggest mistake: disobey an order, just to feel what flying in a narrow crowded valley is. Exhilarating, I guess. But it was Italy and not Afghanistan. But probably your military judges consider your allied countries "your" training fields.
A 20 ppl murder? And then they destroyed the flight recorder? What do you do in USA for such ppl? No, I'm not for death penalty. 30 years would be enuff. Ah, I was forgetting they were USA army men out of every law in every part of the world. USA is even against international law courts. So, what the hell am I saying? All wasted breath.:rolleyes:
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By all definition in any country murder implies deliberate intent. Even you can't make that claim.
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The whole incident was a horrible mistake whichever way it comes out. It was, obviously, a mistake by our troops, in that they did fire upon and kill and/or injure the Italians in that car. However, I firmly believe our troops acted as restrained as can be expected in the situation they were in. I hope that my belief is backed up by facts when the investigation is complete. I would sooner think the problem was a breakdown in communication between the Italians and us, or from our point of contact down to our own troops. They've got a hell of a job to do, and I can't fault them for erring on the side of caution, even when that has such tragic results.
White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the car carrying Giuliana Sgrena was traveling on one of the most dangerous roads in Iraq on Friday when it was fired upon. An Italian intelligence officer in the car was shot and killed.
...
He said the airport road “has been a place where suicide car bombers have launched attacks. It’s been a place where regime elements have fired upon coalition forces. It is a dangerous road and it is a combat zone that our coalition forces are in. Oftentimes, they have to make split second decisions to protect their own security.”
On the other hand, it's a shame the life of the brave Italian agent had to be wasted for this piece of garbage.
Reporter's comments
Sgrena — who works for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto, a fierce opponent of the war and a frequent critic of U.S. policy — said it was possible they were targeted deliberately because the United States opposes Italy’s policy of negotiating with kidnappers.
In an interview published Monday in the Corriere della Sera newspaper, she said she doesn’t know what led to the attack.
“I believe, but it’s only a hypothesis, that the happy ending to the negotiations must have been irksome,” she said. “The Americans are against this type of operation. For them, war is war, human life doesn’t count for much.”
In separate remarks Sunday, she said that “the fact that the Americans don’t want negotiations to free the hostages is known.”
“The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostage, everybody knows that,” she added, speaking to Sky TG24 television by telephone from his hospital bed, where she is recovering from a shrapnel wound. “So I don’t see why I should rule out that I could have been the target.”
*the full story that the above quotes were pulled from is from MSNBC at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/
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Originally posted by gatt
My god, thats what you call justice for 20 deads :rolleyes: A joke that just some of you can call justice. Give them to italian judges and you'll see them back in USA after 20 years of tough jail.
No its not typical of the sentences metted out over here for crimes envolving death.
In many instances we have drunk drivers who have killed folk serving sentences for 2nd degree murder up to and including life.
shamus
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Originally posted by gatt
Old maps and malfunctioning altimeter? C'mon, we are Italy but not South America in the '70 and '80 ...
....You are simply technically explaining why a couple of idiots did a mistake flying too low.
I am not "technically explaining" anything. I'm offering you the points their defense lawyers highlighted at the trial you said did not happen.
As for old maps, if the ski gondola was not on the map, how do you blame the pilot for that part? He was issued the map, he didn't pick the source for the map.
As for the altimeter malfunction, IF it was malfunctioning, how do you blame the pilot for that? Things break you know.
As for the "flying too low", I'd have to go back and re-read the testimony. Was there a standing order that they were in violation of regarding altitude? If so, THAT'S where you can place blame on the crew.
Now, if they violated that order, does that make them guilty of murder? Of course not; there was no intent.
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Originally posted by gatt
So, what the hell am I saying? All wasted breath.:rolleyes:
You already have made up your mind, prejudiced and biased at that.
So, what the hell am i saying? All wasted breath.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SOB
What about being an ass, and defining an entire nation by a few of its citizens' opinions, posted on an Intardnet BBS? I kinda doubt that's cultural, what would you say it is?
It was a jab at those few silly citizens. In fact a continuation of a former discussion on gun control.
But, that's it...DEFINE me SOB. :eek:
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because the americans do not like to pay ransom money they were not told of the ransom/release because it was feared the americans would object, so the american troops were not told about the release because the american command did not know of it.
rumors are the ransom was 1 million, also she may have faked the kidnaping to get money for the terrorists, she is a known amerihater.
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Originally posted by john9001
she is a known amerihater.
LOL...hooooray! It's that word again. I knew it was going to surface soon.
Daeth to all Amerihaters.
:aok
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What a stupid lady.
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curval , you know what she was doing in iraq, trying to find storys that make the americans look bad. a "reporter" with a agenda.
i think she went to the michel moore school of journalism.
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and as such she desrves to DIE. AMERIHATER!!!! Daeth to all AMERIHATERS.
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Originally posted by Curval
It must be a cultural thing..you know...the inability of some nations and their people to admit a mistake was made.
Gotta be cultural.
Yea' But the Italians will never admit it.
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If she had been intentionally targeted, she would not be here to complain that she was intentionally targeted.
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Originally posted by Curval
and as such she desrves to DIE. AMERIHATER!!!! Daeth to all AMERIHATERS.
You do realize you look as stupid as the people you're jabbing at, right? Amerihater, what a retarded word.
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Originally posted by SOB
You do realize you look as stupid as the people you're jabbing at, right? Amerihater, what a retarded word.
look ^ 8 spots
shamus
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SOB I do realise that. That is precisley what I am demonstrating..just how stupid one can look by using that ridiculous word. I added the misspelling of "death" to add even greater emphasis.
"If she had been intentionally targeted, she would not be here to complain that she was intentionally targeted."
Saying this almost 3 pages into this thread is somewhat redundant, do you agree with me on that too?
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Heh, you assume the stupid can or will understand what you're trying to get across.
And I do agree with both that statement, and your assertion that it is redundant. Frankly, it goes without saying. Apart from the French (Hi Straffo & Saw! :p), I'm sure any army with heavy arms and armored vehicles could take out a car full of lightly armed non-combatants.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
It was "sponsered" by the national security adviser and defence secretary, iirc, and I don't think anyone seriously believes Reagan didn't authorise it.
I seriously believe Reagan did not authorize it.
He was pretty incapable intellectually at the time. Now his vice-president/former CIA director...
The really controversial part was the transfer of the proceeds to the Contras, which might not have been authorised by the government.
America also pressurised Israel into releasing 700 Lebanese prisoners in order to release US hostages on the hijacked TWA flight in 1985.
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Originally posted by greentail
I seriously believe Reagan did not authorize it.
He was pretty incapable intellectually at the time.
Greentail... please tell me that you said this in a sincere effort to defend Reagan.
That would so rule.
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Originally posted by Nash
Greentail... please tell me that you said this in a sincere effort to defend Reagan.
That would so rule.
Defend Reagan? He should have been hung from a streetlamp in DC, along with George Bush, Casper Weinberger and Oliver North for treason.
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damn... you sure know how to kill the mood.
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Originally posted by Curval
SOB I do realise that. That is precisley what I am demonstrating..just how stupid one can look by using that ridiculous word. I added the misspelling of "death" to add even greater emphasis.
"If she had been intentionally targeted, she would not be here to complain that she was intentionally targeted."
Saying this almost 3 pages into this thread is somewhat redundant, do you agree with me on that too?
Curval = Airhead ?!?!?
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The guy 9on Fox, John Gibson, had an interesting take on this today....found his write up...
Rush to Judgment
Monday, March 07, 2005
By John Gibson
Giuliana Sgrena (search), the Italian journalist hostage, is now saying that American troops shot at her car on purpose trying to kill her.
The White House says the claim is absurd.
In addition, let me point out some other absurdities:
First, Ms. Sgrena is from a communist newspaper called Il Manifesto (search). So how many of you think Il Manifesto sent her to Iraq to report on how well Iraq is doing after its first free election? None of you? What a smart bunch. Of course it didn't.
She is an ardent anti-American who was going to Iraq to do a hatchet job on the American effort there and — silly her — she didn't realize the Iraqi insurgent kidnapers didn't really care if she thought they were noble freedom fighters. They just wanted her sorry bones to ransom.
What's more, she now admits they treated her well. Gee, now, that's a surprise. When we all saw that tape of Ms. Sgrena begging for her life with her hands held in prayer — imagine a reporter for a communist paper praying — everybody thought things must really be rough. Now it turns out they told her what to say and how to say it and she acted her part.
Also, The Washington Times is reporting Monday that the $6 million ransom was not Italian government money, but personal funds of the media mogul Silvio Berlusconi — who just happens to be the prime minister.
So what do you think the chances are that Ms. Sgrena cooperated with her captors to squeeze some cash out of what she would regard as a capitalist pig, the media mogul and prime minister Mr. Berlusconi?
Think I'm stretching there?
In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.
I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.
She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.
That's My Word.
Watch John Gibson weekdays at 5 p.m. ET on "The Big Story" and send your comments to: myword@foxnews.com
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Good read Lepaul,
Too bad it's written by somone with @fox in their email because it will probably be completly ignored or written off as a "smear campaign" Truth or not.
It will be interesting to see if this is picked up on by any other networks.
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Highly trained motivated and pumped on speed?
(http://www.crazylanka.com/warbrits.jpg)
:rolleyes: ;)
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I had to be seen to agree with someone on Fox but he's right.
The facts are obvious, the Italians got their woman released and were heading to the Airport flushed with success. Have you seen how Italians drive normally? They must have been driving a little fast.
There's an American patrol on the road. It's a dangerous road they expect trouble, a car appears, moving fast. The shooting starts. One man is killed out of four? people in the car. Deliberate? of course not. A mistake? of course.
It's a tragedy for the family of the Italian agent. It's a gift for the Communists, now the focus is not on the terrorists but on the Americans. They are the bad guys.
Ms Sgrena must be delighted.
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skydancer... not all the brits are like you right? The ones I met seemed ok.
lazs
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LePaul...was Mr. Gibson there? He saw the car speeding through a roadblock the Italians state didn't exist?
Wow...amazing.
Toad...it isn't me who has it all figured out...it's LePaul and Mr. Gibson.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by gatt
You are right, I dont agree with those paying ransom. We are waging war so we dont have to pay ransom.
Those ppl have paid a ransom so italy is funding terrorism, so that accident is not so terrible? Right? :rolleyes:
The second sentence, just an *******'s sentence. Even you can understand what has been censored.
I reread what I wrote yesterday and I agree. It was an *******'s sentence.
I won't take it down though because I said it and should look like an bellybutton for saying it. I appologize.
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Curv, this whole thread is premature expoundulation.
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Agreed.
He said...she said (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20050308/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_19)
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Not to be a jerk here, but quite frankly I can's tell the difference between Italians and Arabs. They are both swarthy, dark featured and hairy...
And the men are even worse.
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Mosgood and others,
you cant really understand how bad many italians (me included) felt when we realized that by freeing the hostage paying 1,000,000 Euros we financed bandits and got an high police officer dead. Actually, we know you'll going to protect your soldiers no matter what they did. So we'll probably never know what happened.
Our Prime Minister has not the courage to tell italians that this is not a peacekeeping mission. Actually it is war. And during wars you should not pay to get hostages back, you should search for bandits and kill them. Its all absurd.
Moreover, reading silly things about italian driving style, lack of coordination by italian officers and knowing that we'll never know what happened just drove me crazy.
Thats why I am so pissed off. I apologize if my words sounded so harsh.
P.S.: Airhead, hmmm sure it is air and not a fart ?:rofl
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Btw... the Intelligence officer that was killed had balls of brass to protect his charge like that.
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Lazs said
"skydancer... not all the brits are like you right? The ones I met seemed ok."
I'm OK too. At least I was last time I checked. Sense of humour anyone???
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Originally posted by lazs2
skydancer... not all the brits are like you right? The ones I met seemed ok.
lazs
It's that Zulu avacado again, pay him no mind.
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?
I checked out this Zulu. Seems he upset a few people including Skuzzy, though I couldn't find anything realy offensive in the few posts of his that remain on board. I've certainly noticed some real mudslinging amongst some others in here though.
Pay me no mind if you like though!
:aok
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(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.03.06.RulesofEngage-X.gif)
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Originally posted by Curval
LePaul...was Mr. Gibson there? He saw the car speeding through a roadblock the Italians state didn't exist?
Wow...amazing.
Toad...it isn't me who has it all figured out...it's LePaul and Mr. Gibson.
:rolleyes:
Oh Mr Pinky shorts, Im just posting a link to a news article. I said it was an "interesting read". Didnt state my opinion on it one way or the other.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by LePaul
Oh Mr Pinky shorts, Im just posting a link to a news article. I said it was an "interesting read". Didnt state my opinion on it one way or the other.
:rolleyes:
Don't bother LePaul. People like our pink shorted bermudian here love to come up with new reasons to discount news, facts and other thaught.
He's probably with that crowd here that says if somone doesnt go along with popular thaught they get banned. Well its quite simple that the guy is sudgesting that she is more than likely anti American based on her employment and writings (wich is linked by a search in the orriginal article) AND the fact that it is widely reported that the car in question was speeding towards a road block.....but these truths and opservations (weather witnessed first hand or not) are to be discounted now as well.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Pay me no mind if you like though!
Well, Zulu, that would be no change for the vast majority of us.
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Just a question Toad. What exactly has offended you? I mean I'm just taking a wry humorous look at what I see on here. Is that OK with you pal?
What is your obsession with that guy? As far as I see he doesn't post here anymore. He was booted off from what I have learned. Do you miss him or something?
Is this him?
(http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/images/4145n009.jpg)
;) :lol
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Ok OK I will say it. Italy your now on the axis of evil. jk ;)
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toad... your mistake is that you don't realize that there is more than one effeminate socialist brit on the planet.
lazs
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Nothing personal really, Zulu/Sky.
I'm not fond of shades accounts in general; I think they all indicate a weak character.
Second, Zulu... as you must very well know, Skyzu... was just a gnat. Pointless buzzing with no apparent purpose or benefit.
I enjoy a spirited discussion but there has to be some substance to it. Sadly, I never saw a thread where Zuludancer really contributed anything of substance. Which, I suppose, can be taken as another indication of a weak character.
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Laz, my fault is that I think all Brits are like the normal ones I know that shoot, raise Labs, drink Scotch and generally a heck of a lot of fun to be around.
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Not to be a jerk here, but quite frankly I can's tell the difference between Italians and Arabs. They are both swarthy, dark featured and hairy...
Looks like you didn't travel so much eh?
You are, you are:p
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Lazs Toad What exactly are you guys going on about. Does every post have to contain earth shattering wit or deep discussion and argument?
It kind of seems to me that unless you hear or read something that confirms your own narrow ideas then you bung insults and shout loudly till the bad man goes away!
Looks like this Zulu fella you are so obsessed with did actualy go away. As for me well we'll see. I went before when this all got a bit same ole same ole. But I came back to see.
Maybe you just get a Kick out of picking a BBs persona to rail at and fight. Hell who knows and come to think of it who cares.
Whatever floats your boat. Have fun in your self appointed superiority.
Oh and Toad substitute normal for upper class twit and you'll be nearer. Your description doesn't sound like many Englishmen I know.
:lol
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Hey, if you haven't got the... brass... to admit you're shading that's your problem.
Every post certainly does not "have to contain earth shattering wit or deep discussion and argument". OTOH, yours "Skyzulu" never contain any of those. So far, reading your stuff is a complete waste of bandwidth. IMO, of course; which is why I said what I said.
Clearly, you also haven't read my posts or haven't fully understood them. I like a good discussion; it's actually boring if everyone agrees. You'll also find I don't insult people. I don't tell people they're morons or idiots or use foul language. Check my posts; I work hard at civility. Ask around; I think my reputation here is pretty decent.
As far as my description not sounding like many Englishmen you know, that merely confirms that on my next trip over I won't be needing to meet you at a Pub for certain. The majority of Englishmen I associate with fit that description. The near entirety of those are not "upper class" in any sense of the word. I associate primarily with what would be a working class farmer/laborer type. The guys that beat at the expensive shoots paid for by the "upper class twits".
However, my last trip I also had a great evening and dinner with a shooting syndicate of about 11 of your "upper class twits". Mostly they were London doctors and lawyers, although one was a top executive for Accuracy International and another owns the largest supermarket chain in the UK. I assure you their conversation was far more interesting and knowledgeable than anything I've seen so far from you, Skyzulu.
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pwned
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Originally posted by Toad
I like a good discussion; it's actually boring if everyone agrees. You'll also find I don't insult people. I don't tell people they're morons or idiots or use foul language. Check my posts; I work hard at civility. Ask around; I think my reputation here is pretty decent.
I have had my heated arguments with Toad, and I can say that he is 100% and more of a class act.
Toad is probably one of the best examples of a respectfull, nice and geniune person on this BB.
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Now that the Zulu wars are ended ;) , I have some news.
This morning, on the national radio, I've eard that the woman is denying to have affirmed what upset so much people (the "they want to kill me" part ).
A newspapers exageration?
Damned medias.
The better people at covering the truth.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I have had my heated arguments with Toad, and I can say that he is 100% and more of a class act.
Toad is probably one of the best examples of a respectfull, nice and geniune person on this BB.
I agree with Nuke (for once ;) ), maybe with the exception of the nice part, for 2 reasons.
1) sometime he can be... harsh (sp?) but, anyway, without ever crossing the line.
2) It's a ugly, bald male, what you see of nice in him? :D
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Naso, this would actually be good news. Hopefully the woman never said such a thing. You never know what a person, including myself, might say after being shot and having a companion die in his/her lap. Maybe something was miscontrued.
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Originally posted by Steve
Maybe something was miscontrued.
Like when we had lunch the other day.... I thought you were gonna ask me on a second date, but you never did.
You sir, are an arse.
Now get that Vette done you homo.
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The Zulu war has finished then? back to business.Mr Toad if you do not like the things I post. Don't respond its easy. Peace.
Oh and fair point about the English. But then we are not all lawyers and doctors and proffessionals either. We are a mixed bunch as I'm sure are you. I do own a dog but she's a collie. I do drink in pubs, but I live in a City so using a shotgun might get me in clink pretty rapidly! Have fun now how about you leave me be and I you?
:cool:
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Oh and fair point about the English. But then we are not all lawyers and doctors and proffessionals either.
But you Brits are certainly fashionable.
(http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/royalty/britain/prince-charles/charles-honest-injun.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Don't bother LePaul. People like our pink shorted bermudian here love to come up with new reasons to discount news, facts and other thaught.
He's probably with that crowd here that says if somone doesnt go along with popular thaught they get banned. Well its quite simple that the guy is sudgesting that she is more than likely anti American based on her employment and writings (wich is linked by a search in the orriginal article) AND the fact that it is widely reported that the car in question was speeding towards a road block.....but these truths and opservations (weather witnessed first hand or not) are to be discounted now as well.
Please point me to the "facts".
I read in today's newspaper that the US is going to "fast-track" the investigation into this, and the Bulgarian incident. You were aware that there are two friendly fire incidents being investigated right?
What EXACTLY does "fast track" mean? One thing it does mean for certain is that the investigation has just started...again, where are your FACTS gunslinger?
It was widely reported that was was NO roadblock in the cae of the Italian woman and agent. Do you read/watch all the news...or just watch Fox News?
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I still don't like shades.
I still don't like non-stop drivel posters.
I'll comment as I see fit.
Naso, I have a full head of hair.......... dont' make me post a picture. And my wife, at least, thinks I'm handsome. ;)
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skydnacer... if you are so sensitive of being chastised....
don't post stupid crap.
or... continue to post drivel and grow a thicker skin.
simple eh?
lazs
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This might be unrelated to what happened here, but I thought it was interesting....
I can't remember where I read it.... but some guy was talking about how the checkpoints are set up over there. First ya go through one manned by Iraqis. A minute down the road, ya go through one manned by the yanks.
He said that two times, his car came closed to getting blowed up... because what happens is....
The Iraqi one barely even looks at you. Then once you pass through it, alotta cars speed up thinking they're in the clear.
When they came to the second checkstop, he was screaming at his driver to slow down but the guy didn't understand english and was just hurtling towards the yanks. They of course started to point their guns at the car, fire warning shots or whatever.
Ah man... I'm describing it horribly. I'll try to find where I read it. It really does shed light on how accidents like this can easily happen.
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Was more fun watching the moron go from one side of the fence to the other, then try baiting and getting no bites. You didn`t have to name him......just yet. lol
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Lazs the skin is tough enuff. Thanks.
Toad I still dunno what you are on about. But I think you mean people changing their handle in here and posting under psuedonyms. Don't we all do that or is Toad your real name? Whatever I think the subject is well past dead.
I'll continue to post my drivel. You guys post yours;) and we'll all be happy huh?
As for the original subject of this thread. It does seem to me that these kind of incidents do seem to involve US troops most of the time.
As I see it this could be because US troops form the main contingent so statisticaly such incidents are more likely to involve US troops.
Or it could be because US forces are trained to fight aggressive combat operations and are unsuited therefore to peace keeping or occupation duties. A similar thing can be seen when our Paratroopers are used in a similar vein. They tend to get very trigger happy and are more suited to aggressive combat situations such as they are trained to deal with. ( Bloody Sunday for example )
Or could it be that the Italians wereat fault and did not follow proceedure.
Take your pick. Its most likely a combination of all three.
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As everyone knows, she's a Communist, and she writes for a Communist newspaper 'Il Manifesto'. She's been 'bad mouthing' U.S. troops and the United States position in everything she writes and showing sympathy for the Terrorists.
Suddenly she gets 'captured' by said terrorists and held for 'ransom'. (Which the Italian government unwittingly pays)
Then, after her release, she praises her 'captors' for their kind treatment while in 'captivity' and starts for home. She's now free and her friends have a whole lot of cash to use to carry out more death and destruction. The 'plan' has worked....
Except, as she races for the Airport, she comes face-to-face with a bad case of "What goes around, comes around".
It's too bad a good man had to die for her scheming...
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Just a question.
Did the troops at said checkpoint have to open fire on the occupants or could they not have disabled the vehicle instead?
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Originally posted by Skydancer
But I think you mean people changing their handle in here and posting under psuedonyms. Don't we all do that or is Toad your real name? Whatever I think the subject is well past dead.
I'll continue to post my drivel. You guys post yours;) and we'll all be happy huh?
We all have a BBS persona attached to a chosen BBS name. However, not all of us feel the need to continually reinvent ourselves, discarding our original persona and suddenly reappearing as a "new" personality. Toad has been my BBS and AH in-game name since the first day of beta here. It gives a continuity; it helps people "know" me to the extent possible here. People I meet in person, like at the cons, know what to expect and in fact know quite a bit about me.
Some folks have to re-register for various reasons but the normal ones usually identify themselves so that there is a continuity of personality.
Like it or not, realize it or not, you create yourself as a person here by what you write, how you write and how you react to others.
The lesser amongst us do a bad job of that and disappear and recreate themselves as a new account. They pretend that they are not the person they were before, perhaps because the realize they made a very bad job of that persona. Because there are major "tip-offs" in writing style and thought processes, it usually doesn't take long for folks to figure out who the new persona was before he reinvented himself.
The more honest approach is to remain with the original persona and make the necessary changes so folks don't ignore or despise you. In fact, I respect folks that do that. Some people start out as total jerks and become valued members of the community. However, shade accounts usually inhibit that process.
You are certainly free to post your drivel. I suspect it will be met with the same disregard that it earned when you posted as Zulu7.
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Change the subject. You have made your point. Over and over again Let Zulu RIP.
How about the subject of the thread we are writing in. What about that it would seem that that is what this BBs is for.
Or is it about scoreing points belittling people and generaly making yourself feel a little superior?
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Just a question.
Did the troops at said checkpoint have to open fire on the occupants or could they not have disabled the vehicle instead?
Ok, what I heard is coming over the military channels is that they fired at the road in front of the car as a warning, and then into the engine block in an attempt to stop the car. Please understand that this all took place in a matter of seconds.
The guys I've spoken to coming back from Iraq say that most units do everything they can to avoid accidents at checkpoints (something which is a rarity in middle-eastern check point protocol) both because it irritates the Iraqis, generates instant bad press from the pirranhas...errr media and leads to a mountain of paperwork, investigations, etc. There is no "shoot first, ask questions later" policy.
- SEAGOON
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This just in from Scrappleface.com:
U.S. Claims Insurgents Fail to Warn of Bombs (http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/002105.html)
by Scott Ott
(2005-03-07) -- Just a day after Italian communist writer Giuliana Sgrena said U.S. troops in Iraq fired upon her vehicle without warning, the Pentagon accused Iraqi insurgents of failing to warn U.S. convoys of the presence of improvised explosive devices (IED) and approaching car bombs.
"At checkpoints, we hail approaching vehicles with hand signals, flashing lights and even warning gunfire," said the unnamed Pentagon spokesman. "So it's only fair that when our troops are on patrol, the insurgents should give notice of an impending threat to their lives."
Insurgent groups, however, denied the accusations and claimed that their IEDs emit a visible flash, followed by an audible alert and a hail of "warning shrapnel."
"It may be hard to distinguish the warning shrapnel for the mortally-wounding shrapnel, given their close proximity," said an unnamed spokesman for the insurgency. "But we're taking every reasonable precaution within the scope of our mission here."
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Funny that you think stating the obvious truth about you is belittling you.
Think about that.
Tell you what.... take the first step in the recovery process.
Admit that Skydancer and Zulu7 are indeed the same person.
Do that, I won't embarass you further by posting the obvious.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Just a question.
Did the troops at said checkpoint have to open fire on the occupants or could they not have disabled the vehicle instead?
The action is one and the same. You can not shoot at the engine of a car without shooting at the occupants.
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That seems logical rabid. As I say it was just a question. I'm certainly no expert in the operation of military checkpoints.
Toad quit now huh?
Lets get on with the topic in question
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I didn't start, eh? Just making an observation, yet you think you're being picked upon?
What good can come out of a lie? Why start out a new persona with a falsehood?
Just an observation.
Do you want me to quit observing?
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You are getting obsessive.
Leave it huh?
The topic of the thread, what do you think?
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Originally posted by Skydancer
You are getting obsessive.
Leave it huh?
The topic of the thread, what do you think?
awww come on zulu. it's out in the open now. you got two choices. (err 3 really)
1. be a "man" show some intestinal fortitude, and admit you are/were zulu. (doubting this one gonna' hapen. nothing about what i've read by you makes me think you have the guts, or know HOW to be a "man")
2. create another bbs i.d., and try to not be "you" as much. (granted, i'm sure your shining qualities that we all know and love so much will come through and you will be "outed" yet again. i'm betting this will be the route you go with. it's what all the wimps do)
3. quit posting on the bbs. (oh if we could only be so lucky)
as far as the pinko reporter, I can't wait until the "truth" comes out. If it's found she did indeed "fake" her kidnaping, is she liable for prosecution in Italy? Just curious.
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You are getting obsessive.
Once you understand Toad's and the rest of the 13th TAS SOP of ridicule, disinformation, and out right fanatic inquisition you will understand how to sledgehammer them with great skill and mustering like I always do... Im surprised the whole squad hasn't jumped in to machine gun post this thread with white noise trying to get the point across yet.. (oh btw Hi toad just saying hello) for crying out loud their squad was formed by VOSS that should at a bare minimum elighten you to their dynamic.... And as they dont give you a new lease on your new name nor do I give them a new lease on their past tactics or fearless leader scorp master himself.. (his influence can still be seen in the rest of them no doubt about it..)
Now back to Italy and Iraq its very unforntunate that this happened.. Im against the Iraq war which i consider a pyrric victory at best.. Nevertheless we are there and we got boots on the ground.. italy was one of our best allies to date in that country.. By killing them even by mistake disenfranchises them to our cause.. IMO there will be repercussions following this cluster that happened between the airport and the greenzone....
If it happens again we lose all credibility.. that will be bad ....
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
If it happens again we lose all credibility.. that will be bad ....
"all credibilty"?, come doctor , surely you exaggerate.
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what is "great skill and mustering" and... are you really a doctor?
sky... Toad is right. You are being a tad dishonest and the more you avoid facing up the worse it looks.
lazs
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No you are wrong there I think the worse you Zulu obsessives look.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
No you are wrong there I think the worse you Zulu obsessives look.
that what sense makes?
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Zulu may have to set the record on shades.
At this rate by the end of this month he will have more shades than the Academy Awards.
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Nah, since you are zulu, you look like the tard, not them. (Like you didn’t give yourself away in the bike thread triumph boy)
Why not just be a man and admit it?
Wait I know why, because as soon as you do, no one will pay any attention to you.
It always the same with guys like you, or mrblack or voss or straiga, its all about the attention.
:lol
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Once you understand Toad's and the rest of the 13th TAS SOP of ridicule, disinformation, and out right fanatic inquisition you will understand how to sledgehammer them with great skill and mustering like I always do...
DoctorYo
Actually DrYo you ain't all that...
Your problem is your hook is too small and the bait is about ten years old.
Keep trying tho, it'as all good.
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Not to be a jerk here, but quite frankly I can's tell the difference between Italians and Arabs. They are both swarthy, dark featured and hairy...
And the men are even worse.
Airhead....
Awsome.... I was rolling.
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Originally posted by Curval
Please point me to the "facts".
I read in today's newspaper that the US is going to "fast-track" the investigation into this, and the Bulgarian incident. You were aware that there are two friendly fire incidents being investigated right?
What EXACTLY does "fast track" mean? One thing it does mean for certain is that the investigation has just started...again, where are your FACTS gunslinger?
It was widely reported that was was NO roadblock in the cae of the Italian woman and agent. Do you read/watch all the news...or just watch Fox News?
Well the fact that she WAS anti-american (or at least she wrote that way)
and the FACT that she worked for a communist Newspaper
and I have yet to see a major news outlet say that it wasn't a road block So logic dictates I assume this is TRUE because the guys that were THERE said it was and I nore you have anyway to disprove them.
It would be a waist of my time to actually prove these things i've said here because they are obvious.
as far as "fast-track" the exact quote I read today was that:
Bush sent a letter to his Italian counterpart renewing his promise for a "swift and thorough investigation into the killing", the Italian president's office said Wednesday.
Italy has called the shooting an "accident," echoing the White House's characterization of the death, but has disputed the U.S. version of events and demanded that Washington shed light on the incident and punish those responsible.
"The case of friendly fire is certainly the most painful to bear. It feels like an injustice beyond any sentiment. It's something unreasonable," Berlusconi said.
"When Italian citizens have been victims of kidnappings, the government has always acted by following two directives: It has always rejected political blackmail, while at the same time activating all the political, diplomatic and intelligence channels to obtain the release of our nationals," he said
Again:
I think the editorial that le paul posted was very good.
Again:
I think its sadi that it will probably go ignored because the writer has @foxnews in his email addr.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
how to sledgehammer them with great skill and mustering like I always do...
DoctorYo
:rofl
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Wow, and here I was thinking this was a thread about a shooting in Iraq. Silly me.
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Yeah it's sad how shade attention potatos ruin good threads.
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Now get that Vette done you homo.
Got the short block back today, installed. The heads are supposed to be here in two weeks. In the mean time, there is much wiring to do w/ the ignition and fuel system. It's going to have all the cool goodies.
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Originally posted by Curval
That was NOT the point of my post, which was more directed at those people saying things like "Well, if we did want to kill her she'd be dead" or "She's a commie, so it's okay for us to shoot at her" or "BLAME AMERIKA it's all our fault". Newsflash....it was the fault of Americans.
This is the most important post in this thread.
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(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050308/capt.rom17003082010.italy_sgrena_car_rom170.jpg)
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050308/capt.rom17103082011.italy_sgrena_car_rom171.jpg)
A bullet hole in the glass can be seen near the wiper.
After taking 300 to 400 hits as Sgrena said, I expected to see something like this:
(http://www.morticom.com/celebritydeathcrimefigures11c.jpg)
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050308/capt.rom17003082010.italy_sgrena_car_rom170.jpg)
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050308/capt.rom17103082011.italy_sgrena_car_rom171.jpg)
A bullet hole in the glass can be seen near the wiper.
After taking 300 to 400 hits as Sgrena said, I expected to see something like this:
(http://www.morticom.com/celebritydeathcrimefigures11c.jpg)
For a car that took 300 to 400 rounds as the reported said....it's kept it's resale value.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Well the fact that she WAS anti-american (or at least she wrote that way)
and the FACT that she worked for a communist Newspaper
and I have yet to see a major news outlet say that it wasn't a road block So logic dictates I assume this is TRUE because the guys that were THERE said it was and I nore you have anyway to disprove them.
It would be a waist of my time to actually prove these things i've said here because they are obvious.
Oh silly me...I thought you were going to give me facts about the incident, instead you give me facts about the fact that she was a communist and anti-American. LOL. So you then feel this is a justified shooting?
Logic dictates SQUAT in this case. What we are seeing is a "he said, she said" media frenzy. You choose to belive whatever is spoon-fed to you by Fox News...so be it.
What about the Bulgarian shooting? Was the Bulgarian a commie too?
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Anyone who questions the war is a commie! So it seems.
I think the moral of this sad tale is don't use troops trained to fight aggressive combat operations as occupiers and peacekeepers. There are other armys with more experience of these kind of operations that could deploy, or re train personnel specificaly for such duties.
( for the record I am not here for attention. I here to discuss interesting topics and have bit of fun. I have several times attempted to put this thread back on track. Ok )
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Go away skydancer. you have not wasted enough of everyones time yet?
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They are in a war zone.
Chit happens.
Best advice would be, if ya don`t won`t your *** capped stay off the roads while a war is going on.
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There was me thinking the war is over!
In fairness I agree that to drive around at breakneck speed especialy at military checkpoints ignoring orders to stop is not too clever.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
There was me thinking the war is over!
In fairness I agree that to drive around at breakneck speed especialy at military checkpoints ignoring orders to stop is not too clever.
It`s a long, long way from over.
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Another vietnam? Isn't that what the pentagon et al were desperately trying to avoid? Maybe its un solvable. They have their elected govt. Maybe its time to pull out.
Its atricky one though as to do that might court disaster. how long would the new administration be able to survive!
Maybe my grasp of history aint so good but Vietnam had a shaky pro US govt. When you guys pulled out it quickly collapsed.
Its a big mess and make no mistake. Thats easy to see. The hard part is sorting that out.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Another vietnam?
Not hardly. The military don`t have their hands tied here.
Its atricky one though as to do that might court disaster. how long would the new administration be able to survive!
Wanna put that in something resembling English?
Maybe its time to pull out.
I wouldn`t hold my breath waiting for that to happen.....at least as far as the U.S. is concerned.
Its a big mess and make no mistake. Thats easy to see. The hard part is sorting that out.
Doesn`t appear to be a big mess from my stand point. Quite the opposite. A hell of a good job has been done there IMO. It`s being "sorted out" in fine fashion. It is also just a starting point. There is yet to be a lot of work done there and in other areas as well and they will be done despite the crying and moaning. On that you can bet.
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I look at it this way. Until there is proof otherwise I'm going to side with our troops.
Do I have anything more than he said she said?
No!
So I chose to believe the people that are there every day trying to bring peace to Iraq and not the ones that are there to cause problems.
Is this a product of watching Fox news? Maybe but I watch CNN also so how does that fit in?
Granted I didn't check with the communist paper to see their side of it but I think I can figure that out myself.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050308/capt.rom17003082010.italy_sgrena_car_rom170.jpg)
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050308/capt.rom17103082011.italy_sgrena_car_rom171.jpg)
A bullet hole in the glass can be seen near the wiper.
After taking 300 to 400 hits as Sgrena said, I expected to see something like this:
(http://www.morticom.com/celebritydeathcrimefigures11c.jpg)
Holden, investigations here in Italy (on the car they got back) show that "only" about 20-30 small caliber bullets (IIRC) hit mainly the *side* of the car. So, those 300-400 claimed hits were obviously only what a schocked woman thinks to remember after the accident. However, those side hits are a little strange since we are talking about a road block. But lets wait for the results of the joint investigation.
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Mighty1, I like your approach. Honest and straightforward and as such I respect it.
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The report I heard said 12 hits not 30 or 300 plus like she was claiming.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
The report I heard said 12 hits not 30 or 300 plus like she was claiming.
Why how dare you sir!!!! Surely you are not suggesting that a Commie reporter might stretch the truth . :D
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Well, reasonably speaking, the *difference* is between 20-30 and 300, not between 20-30 and 12. The first big result is that the car was not hit by a hell of a fire. Simply some second of fire from a single automatic rifle. Not counting shots that have missed, of course.
BTW, "Week End Warriors" reservists of First Battalion, 69th Infantry, are not famous for their training at all. The journalist have been very lucky, IMO.
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So anyone disagreeing with the US policy in Iraq is now a communist? Who desrves to die?
Are you guys sure this iswhat you meant?
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I'd say being banned once already for the only possible infraction on this forum, that is being either stupidly belligerent or belligerently stupid, should be a clue as to any question you might have about the other non-banned posters' attitude here.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
So anyone disagreeing with the US policy in Iraq is now a communist?
Zulu try to get a grip would ya?
She is a communist reporter by her own definition. Got that?
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He got it all along.. hes just trolling along like the lame little doobie he is.
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What Zulu does not understand, is he does not converse, he preaches, and he preaches from a stand point that most preachers have, the holier then thou one.
He does this for the attention, just like with the blackclones it is easiest just to ignore him.
No one likes being preached at unless it's Sunday church.
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No I'm not preaching at all. I'm asking a question! So she defines herself as communist fine! But even so reading some of the posts I have to question why some people think it was legit to shoot her.
Personaly I feel it was a tragedy. Certainly for her family and partner etc. Is that wrong?
Guys what exactly is it that you find so offensive? Its pretty strange considering some of the realy offensive stuff that gets posted in here.
What is this obsession with attention seeking? I don't seek any attention. Certainly not the kind that gets me attacked constantly and insulted continualy.
Can't you guys handle listening to a different point of view?
Go and read my threads I think you will find that I agree with you on some things and not on others. Have an open mind and please try and quit this childish nonsense. That was not a preach! that was a plea for decency!
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to prove your not a troll let this thread die... I'm tired of it spamming my inbox.
Your just rehashing the same old crud from the previous 5 pages and acting like its a big deal.
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Ok.
But still the questions remain!
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Instead of asking WHY WHY WHY and then go on to blame it all on the rest of the board, WHY don't you take a look at yourself and figure out why you get that crap you do.
The clues are there. It is not your point of view, others here have similer views and get much less flack and WAY more respect.
You won't though, you will keep going on thinking you are just being picked on cause we don't agree with you.
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This looks done.