Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on March 07, 2005, 05:41:03 PM
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Hey... thanks for putting the link to your church in your sig.
After reading your posts in the Mars thread, I spent an hour or so reading some of your essays and sermons.
Anyway... not that my opinion matters (I'm a godless heathen), but you strike me as a true witness to your faith.
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Seagoon,
Nice web siite there.
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Sandman,
Thanks for your uplifting message. It was sincerely appreciated.
As you know, I pastor a church which is mostly made up of military families who serve on Ft. Bragg/Pope Air Force base. Every day I gain a greater respect for the families of America's servicemen, who for the past four years have been under greater pressure than I think anyone outside of this sphere really understands, especially the SF community which is pretty much constantly deployed of late. Most of them are wonderful people, but because of their special circumstances they tend to have more than the average number of problems, and a few that in my wildest dreams I never expected to encounter in pastoral ministry. I'd be a liar if I said that this hasn't taken a personal toll on me and my family as well, so I am thankful for any encouragement I receive.
You and I have more in common than we probably realize, I was also a "godless heathen" as you put it (actually I was a practicing Occultist for several years), and if anyone had told me in University that I'd end up as an evangelical Christian, much less a pastor, I'd have said, "you my friend, are on drugs." Remembering how hard my own heart was will I hope keep me humble and my perspective on track.
I've been extremely blessed over the years, both by having a wonderful help-meet, the opportunity to learn from C.S. Lewis caliber mentors, and now the privilege of serving members of the military community. I've also really enjoyed my time flying AH and my excellent squaddies. From where I sit, God has been very good to this undeserving man.
Thanks again.
- SEAGOON
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Sandman,
PS: I meant to ask. Everytime I see your Avatar I think, "I've seen that somewhere" what on earth is it from???
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Sandman,
PS: I meant to ask. Everytime I see your Avatar I think, "I've seen that somewhere" what on earth is it from???
- SEAGOON
Hehehe. That's Michael Bolton from the movie Office Space.
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poor fax machine :)
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PC Load Letter? WTF is PC Load Letter?!?!?!?!?!!?
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Ahhhhh... riiiiight. Why didn't they make sure I got the memo?
Thanks, was driving me crazy. Now I can sleep again.
- Seagoon
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Yeah I got to agree, Seagoon seems like a very nice person even if we do have completely different outlooks.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Hehehe. That's Michael Bolton from the movie Office Space.
Any relation to the pop singer?
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Nice family you have there Seagoon :)
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wow,
Didn't even notice the link. My parents are away from their church right now because they are moving. I emailed them the link to your sermons so they might enjoy them.
Myself, I will have to check them out later.
PS love the title of this one "He Who is Not With Christ is Against Him (Luke 11:14-23) "
I still can't put my finger on were I've heard that before???? ;)
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Originally posted by Heiliger
Any relation to the pop singer?
The no talent bellybutton clown that became famous and started winning Grammies? No.
;)
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why should i change my name? he's the one who sucks.
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Seagoon,
Keep up the Good Work Bro!
Sqrl (late as usual)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Sandman,
You and I have more in common than we probably realize, I was also a "godless heathen" as you put it (actually I was a practicing Occultist for several years), and if anyone had told me in University that I'd end up as an evangelical Christian, much less a pastor, I'd have said, "you my friend, are on drugs." Remembering how hard my own heart was will I hope keep me humble and my perspective on track.
- SEAGOON
Hmmm... I started on the other side. Was raised as a Baptist, before I turned away. I've done a bit of reading on Wiccan and even Satanist beliefs. Some of it resonates... up until the point where they speak of magic or magick. That's the point where my inner BS alarm becomes shrill.
My problems with witnessing began while I still considered myself to be a christian. There were many in my church that felt that to be a witness was to be some sort of salesman. I disagreed then, just as I disagree now. IMHO, a true witness is someone that is an enviable example. When you see them, you ask... what makes them so content?
I have absolutely no patience for the rest of the morons that knock on my door or stop me at the shopping center and begin asking if I have accepted Jesus Christ. My first answer is always the same, "It's none of your business." I try to say it with a smile and be courteous, but if they keep pressing, I just get angry. I get the distinct impression that they are trying to convince me because they have their own doubts and they believe that if we all agree, we must be right. Sorry folks, I'm not here to strengthen your faith.
The flipside, is that the true believers strengthen the faith of everyone around them.
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Originally posted by Squirrel
Seagoon,
Keep up the Good Work Bro!
Sqrl (late as usual)
Sqrl
where did you get ur avatar?
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I edited a squirrel photo posted by one of the CT regulars (who was implying a certain individual needed to get into the 21st century and put up an avatar)
BTW
This is how much I like squirrels (http://www.mindspring.com/~p38/sqrl_defense1.jpg) .. particularly ones that destroy my bird feeders :)
Sqrl
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Originally posted by Sandman
IMHO, a true witness is someone that is an enviable example.
"Preach the Gospel Always and When Necessary Use Words." -St. Francis of Assisi
:D
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Hi Sandman,
Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm... I started on the other side. Was raised as a Baptist, before I turned away. I've done a bit of reading on Wiccan and even Satanist beliefs. Some of it resonates... up until the point where they speak of magic or magick. That's the point where my inner BS alarm becomes shrill.
[/B]
Ah, my mum was a "spiritist" so my Saturday afternoons were spent being taken along to the "psychic festivals" etc. In highschool, I started playing Fantasy RPGs (AD&D, Call of Cthulhu, etc.) and after getting bored with that went on to buying and reading as much on the occult as I could - the works of Aleister Crowley in particular. While most of my occult friends were Wiccan and "nature magic" types, I was more attracted to the Hermetic side and eventually joined a local chapter of the Golden Dawn. That involvement began to unravel after my marriage (ironically enough, my best man was the owner of an occult book shop and one of my wedding presents was an antique multi-volume set of Crowley's works.) After my conversion to Christianity in 1993, I came to realize that I'd spent almost a decade in a vain and self-absorbed quest for power over man and nature. Simply put, I'd been after the position of ruler of the universe, and wasted scads of time reading the works of people after the same end. I'd swallowed the old lie "you will be like God" (Gen 3:5) hook, line, and sinker. Odd isn't it? Trying to be God made me discontent, bitter, and miserable, serving the real one however had exactly the opposite effect. "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."
BTW - don't think there's no power in all that Magic, Magick, or Wicca stuff, my experience was that there is. None of it is good, and like Crowley it inevitably warps, destroys, and consumes its practioners. Even while I was still involved in the occult, I began to see that. I remember asking myself, "is it that only flakes do this stuff, or that we all end up being flakes because we do this stuff?" Like the old god of the canaanites Molech, eventually the idol consumes the worshipper.
My problems with witnessing began while I still considered myself to be a christian. There were many in my church that felt that to be a witness was to be some sort of salesman. I disagreed then, just as I disagree now. IMHO, a true witness is someone that is an enviable example. When you see them, you ask... what makes them so content?
I have absolutely no patience for the rest of the morons that knock on my door or stop me at the shopping center and begin asking if I have accepted Jesus Christ. My first answer is always the same, "It's none of your business." I try to say it with a smile and be courteous, but if they keep pressing, I just get angry. I get the distinct impression that they are trying to convince me because they have their own doubts and they believe that if we all agree, we must be right. Sorry folks, I'm not here to strengthen your faith.
The flipside, is that the true believers strengthen the faith of everyone around them.
Well Sandman, I pastor a church made up mostly of converts, almost all of us are the first generation of evangelicals in their families, but the interesting thing is that in almost every case the critical feature in their conversion was not an encounter with a stranger in shopping mall or a Christian home invasion, but the patient and gentle witnessing of a true friend. In most cases they went along to church because they trusted the individual who invited them, as you said they noted something markedly different about that individual and wanted it themselves. Now it wasn't an entirely silent witness - no one figures out the Christian faith simply by observing the way someone else lives - but they certainly do note the effect of that living faith rather than an empty profession has.
- SEAGOON
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>>"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" <<
And woe is the mortal man who's whole life is deciding who is doing that. In a nut shell, thats about all we are doing here -trying to figure who is BSing and who is not. If only it was simple.
Faith is hard, but misplaced faith is disaster. Thats why we put our faith in no man, but so many men are directing out faith to people who understand better than us. Its a complicated bussiness when searching for truth. The Roe vs Wade insead of a more universal ignorance vs reason kinda jaded me further - sorry me I guess - its a long road. Religion and politics , we just spend our lives justifying our stupidity.
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Tao baby.
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>>Tao baby<<
Exactly. As resonated in Gibran's "The Prophet" the idea of a natural flow of opposites , yen's and yangs, male and female, positive and negative, dark and light etc etc.
It doesn't have the fireworks of brimstone, but it has the stability and directness of geology and the known universe. All this centuries BC.
And in the Dead Sea scrolls, I believe it states Jesus traveled east and may have been exposed to such notions.
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Originally posted by Squirrel
I edited a squirrel photo posted by one of the CT regulars (who was implying a certain individual needed to get into the 21st century and put up an avatar)
...
Sqrl
Thought he looked familar, his name is Rocko :)
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/rocko.jpg)
We raised him from a baby, helping out the local wildlife lady.
That was 11/2003. The cool part is he is still in the backyard and will eat from your shoulder or help himself if you leave the sliding glass door open
Have raised several more since
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/cage.jpg)
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Ahh yes Thanks for the photo Eagler!
Sqrl
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We raised a squirrel from baby also. We found one stranded on the backyard and fed him with milk etc.
When he grew up he climbed all over us, running under the jacket and coming out of the sleeve. It was really funny.
We even sent a video to the 'funniest home videos' show.
Then when the time came, he wanted to run to the forest more and more. One day he stayed there for the night.
For a year he came to see us if we called him in the forest.. Now he is probably wild already or dead.. dunno how old squirrels can live.
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I have heard they live between 10 and 12 years in the wild minus cars and rednecks :)
we have about a half dozen who we raised that are still around and come to you when you call for them. They are smarter than I had given them credit for.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Tao baby<<
Exactly. As resonated in Gibran's "The Prophet" the idea of a natural flow of opposites , yen's and yangs, male and female, positive and negative, dark and light etc etc.
It doesn't have the fireworks of brimstone, but it has the stability and directness of geology and the known universe. All this centuries BC.
And in the Dead Sea scrolls, I believe it states Jesus traveled east and may have been exposed to such notions.
Tweety,
The Dead Sea Scrolls were almost entirely composed of copies of the Old Testament and Jewish intertestimental wisdom literature buried by the Essenes (a strict separatist Jewish sect) of Qumran. All of the books were written hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus. But in so far as the future Messiah is mentioned in them, he conforms closely to the biblical view and not some sort of wandering Eastern sage (or modern DeadHead with or without VW bus). This is even admitted in Jewish critical analysis of the scrolls. For instance from the work of Eisenman and Wise commenting on the text of scroll 4Q246:
"A key phrase in the text is, of course, the reference to calling the coming kingly or Messianic figure, whose 'rule will be an eternal rule', 'the son of God' or 'the son of the Most High', while previous kingdoms, because of their transitoriness, are compared only to 'shooting stars'. ... There can be no denying the relation of allusions of this kind to the Lukan prefiguration of Jesus: 'He will be great, and will be called the son of the Most High; and the Lord god will give him the Throne of his father David... For that reason the Holy offspring will be called the Son of God' (Luke 1:32-35)"
Tell you what, why don't you try going through the Gospel according to John which was written by someone who actually knew and worked with Jesus during his earthly ministry. The earliest fragments we have yet found of that (the Chester Beattie Papyri) have been reliably dated to only a few years after the death of John and then you tell me if it sounds like this Jesus was into a kind of Taoist, Ying-Yang thing.
In the meantime, I promise never to allege that Buddha traveled east to steal cliff notes from Confucious [even though their life spans at least overlapped.]
- SEAGOON
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I have absolutely no patience for the rest of the morons that knock on my door or stop me at the shopping center and begin asking if I have accepted Jesus Christ.
well,,this is totaly wrong for most churches to do,,the church of christ i go too once and awhile<~~is not as devote as he should be,,but they dont go door to door tring to convert you..you suposta go to god not be force onto him,,maybe seagoon can tell me were in the bible it states,,somthing like dont preach apon death ears<~~are preacher was telling us this some were,,i cant remmber,but it stuck in my brain,,pretty much saying,,dont preach about god to people who dont wanna hear,because they are blind and its not worth your breath,,lol
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Here are the reasons I converted from Christianity to Atheism.
(1) The thought that an all-powerful God would either send, or allow me to burn in Hell forever for just being human.
(2) God not actively showing himself every day so that people could see that he was real, and in effect, saving the entire human population from burning in agony for eternity.
(3) If, as evidence shows, life can be created by organic objects coming together under the right conditions, what purpose would a God serve?
Any thoughts, comments?
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I prefer the agnostic view.
I can't deny the possibility of something I can't prove wrong. Then again I can't believe in something which I can't verify is there.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I prefer the agnostic view.
I can't deny the possibility of something I can't prove wrong. Then again I can't believe in something which I can't verify is there.
Agree.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
[B(3) If, as evidence shows, life can be created by organic objects coming together under the right conditions, what purpose would a God serve?
Any thoughts, comments? [/B]
Not going to bother with the first two points as they also cannot be proven disproven in any way. Eventually you will know if correct or not.
As to #3, nothing in the statement you list disproves existance of God. Another point, someone or something HAS to be responsible for the creation of matter / universe to begin with. That alone is a strong point in the favor of a Supreme Being irregardless of the method used to come to the point of life as it is now on this little dirtball in space.
Having given you that opening please carry on. I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to hear your next point in debunking the situation I just presented.
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>>Tweety,
The Dead Sea Scrolls were almost entirely composed of copies of the Old Testament and Jewish intertestimental wisdom literature buried by the Essenes (a strict separatist Jewish sect) of Qumran. All of the books were written hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus<<
The thing I am intrigued by is not in the New Testament, i.e., the life of Jesus from 12-29. That is not to discount what is in the Bible, but I have to be honest - I'm very curious about the "missing years."
I did mistakenly call it the Dead Sea Scrolls - this is what I am referring to..
http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm
I don't know if its true or not, but that is what I was thinking of.
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(3) If, as evidence shows, life can be created by organic objects coming together under the right conditions, what purpose would a God serve?
were did that organic material come from? unfair test considering we allready got air and organics..i wanna see some one make life from a vacume and just hydrogen..then ill be impressed,,lol
how did a hydrogen atom exploding make something close too 190 elements?<~~think its more than that now days,,lol heck we still cant make gold let alone elements from hydrogen..i think there are things we will never know...because i flat out dont beleve that nothing condenced into hydrogen and exploded and turned into all these elements and planets..too many loop holes..all runs too nice like a clock for me to beleve that at the moment
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That alone is a strong point in the favor of a Supreme Being irregardless of the method used to come to the point of life as it is now on this little dirtball in space.
According to the String Theory, two of the eleven different dimensions collided to create the Universe.
the Big Bang was surely not the beginning of all matter but simply the creation of this Universe at the moment when two separate dimensions collided with one another. A process which may have happened countless thousands of times.
There are even those who believe that an entire Universe may be created and brought into being in the context of a laboratory setting. Others (see heading below) respond by arguing that the dangers of such research are far too considerable for us to undertake research into areas we barely understand.
I have no more difficulty believing that all matter has existed forever than Christians have believing that God has existed forever. And with the String Theory and others explaining how the Universe and Life was created, it all falls into place for me.
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Hi All,
Cool Squirrels Eagler, cute as a button daughter(?) as well. A sincere thanks to all who have posted encouraging notes. I'm currently popping Zicam as fast as I can, but the tickle in my throat tells me I'm probably going to be sick as a dog for Sunday Morning, so this is an earnest request for prayer before then.
Anyway... Apologetics. Gotta admit that's never been my strongest suit, but eh. Before I get started, I focused on the problem of the underlying lack of foundation for evolutionary presuppositions in this essay (http://www.providencepca.com/essays/unregenerate.html) interacting with the thought of evoloutionary psychologist Steven Pinker. For an even better response this problem (i.e. the way atheism trades on borrowed capital) check here: Why I believe in God by Dr. Cornelius Van Til (http://www.reformed.org/apologetics/why_I_believe_cvt.html)
Anyway, Suntracker writes:
(1) The thought that an all-powerful God would either send, or allow me to burn in Hell forever for just being human.
[/b]
The Bible does not teach that men are sentenced to Hell merely for being human. The are sentenced to Hell for systematically violating God's Laws. All men since the fall are, as David put it, brought forth in a fallen condition (Psalm 51:5) - which is why for instance you don't have to teach your kids to lie or to be selfish, they come out naturally inclined to that kind of behavior (Eph. 2:1-3). So that there is no one who in and of himself would not be justly condemned by God (Romans 3:10-19).
The bible however is concerned to tell us that there is a merciful remedy for this terrible state of affairs in the atonement of Christ, i.e. that God has provided an atonement for Sin at the greatest possible cost for himself. So that Christ takes the punishment we deserved and his righteousness is imputed to us per 2 Cor. 5:21, divine justice is thus perfectly served. This exchange is detailed in Romans 3:21-25
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed"
Thus through faith in Christ, justice is satisfied and forgiveness and heaven is given as a free gift to all who believe, this is what is know as the "good news" and this is what I'm committed to proclaiming, rather than leaving men at the aforementioned bad news.
Now regarding the underlying principle. Generally, all men are willing to believe that if there is a hell, some men (Hitler, Pol Pot, Dahmer, etc.) have merited it by their actions. We would all agree that it would not be just for Hitler to go to heaven if there was one, and would agree that if there is an all just God it would be just to punish him. I raise this merely to show that even while most men feel that they do not deserve eternity in hell, we can readily see that the concept of punishment after life is not unjust. Quite the opposite. [BTW - no one in the bible warns of Hell as a real place of eternal punishment more than Jesus, therefore ambassadors of Christ are bound to issue the same warning]
(2) God not actively showing himself every day so that people could see that he was real, and in effect, saving the entire human population from burning in agony for eternity.
[/b]
Where to begin? The Bible states that to the contrary, all nature declares that there is a God worthy of our worship: "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard." (Psalm 19:1-3) In fact Paul in Romans 1:18-22 declared that the problem was not that we could not know that there was a God, but rather that we deny that we deny the evidence that abounds all around us:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
The incarnation was the ultimate proof of the existence of God, yet sinful men still denied it: John 10:24-25 "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe."
Certainly I can vouch that this pattern of denial and outright anti-theism was what I engaged in.
(3) If, as evidence shows, life can be created by organic objects coming together under the right conditions, what purpose would a God serve?
[/B]
I have never yet seen conclusive proof of life being formed from inorganic material. To my knowledge no scientist has been able to create even the simplest of one-celled organisms from scratch. Additionally, even if it were shown you still have the problem of overcoming nothingness. I.E. Nothing comes from nothing. Where did the matter one supposes can become life come from? God as Creator, Sustainer,* Redeemer, is in no way eliminated even if one could take inorganic chemicals and synthesize nucleotides in a lab. Time+Chance cannot Create, neither can they Order, or Preserve. Only a Creator can both put the DNA Helix together and keep it that way.
- SEAGOON
* did you bring yourself into being? Do you keep yourself in existence?
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Seagoon....
i have a dilema for you.
above you have done your best in this limited medium to not only witness, but back those thoughts up with substantial matter (IE facts)
i have gone blue in the face trying to talk out in person what you are talking about. 12 years of lutheran school made me somewhat knowledgable in the subject.
EVERY time the "wall" was "the Bible is fiction made up to scare us" or someting along that line.
if you have ever seen the theroy on the grand canyon, and formation because of a lake left over from the flood, or the thoughts on the rocky mountians being a giant upheaval form the seperation to bring waters from below during the flood you know there is "scientific" theory's behind it all, contradicting all evolution / plate techtonic theroy's. i say "theory" ans scientific, because we all know science is in fact based on "believed" theroies.
since nothing is proven, how do you prove anything? i have been confronted by people who believe science is a "FACT", and will not budge on that.
those 2 things, the Bible, and the science have stopped me at every pass. i am not the best witness there is, but 2 simple things i can not overcome have halted my witnessing every time to the point i have "given up" and just get SO frustrated in the discussion i have nowhere to go but to back out. nothing i say will convince them, and i fear i am doing something wrong or bad by giving up like i have.
with the exception of going to seminary, how can a simple christian compete with the aithest teachings of our school system? a godless person can gather a library of "fact" in 12+ years of schooling, and a regular person like myself can not compete with that extent of learning.
i know the truth, and have tried to be a good witness, but i have failed so many times i can not count, always those 2 things mentioned above.
what is your advise to remedy that situation -OR- remedy my complete lack of desire to even consider engaging in a religious conversation?
thanks
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ty Seagoon, she is my grand-daughter
good luck on your cold, zinc, vitaminC, salt water gargle and salt water nasal spray work for me
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if you have ever seen the theroy on the grand canyon, and formation because of a lake left over from the flood, or the thoughts on the rocky mountians being a giant upheaval form the seperation to bring waters from below during the flood you know there is "scientific" theory's behind it all, contradicting all evolution / plate techtonic theroy's. i say "theory" ans scientific, because we all know science is in fact based on "believed" theroies.
JB I haven't studied this specific event but I'm 99% sure that this occurrence took place a million or so years before there was any kind of human civilization on earth. I'd be surprised if there had been anything walking on two legs even, not to mention having technology to build towns, clothes and ships.
Faith can blind you. Enough to overlook massive and critical details such as error of a million or so years in time.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Tweety,
The Dead Sea Scrolls were almost entirely composed of copies of the Old Testament and Jewish intertestimental wisdom literature buried by the Essenes (a strict separatist Jewish sect) of Qumran. All of the books were written hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus<<
The thing I am intrigued by is not in the New Testament, i.e., the life of Jesus from 12-29. That is not to discount what is in the Bible, but I have to be honest - I'm very curious about the "missing years."
I did mistakenly call it the Dead Sea Scrolls - this is what I am referring to..
http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm
I don't know if its true or not, but that is what I was thinking of.
Hi Tweety,
I encountered Notovich's work while I was still traveling in New Age circles. It follows the general tenor of all the Aquarian or new age speculations about Jesus that were popular in the late 1880s. You'll find the same kind of general "ascended master from the east" teachings in the works of Blavatsky, Cayce, and rehashed constantly in New Age writings. The appeal of these works is that they present a Jesus radically different from the Jesus of the New Testament, a Jesus who makes no claims to divinity, does not establish a church, does not speak of sin, salvation, consequences, or really seem connected to the Old Testament canon in any way. The New Age Jesus is, as many have observed, not even Jewish. Additionally, the Jesus of the New Age/Theosophist movement is a gnostic Jesus, and far from preaching a universal message intelligible to even the smallest child, he's all about secret wisdom, jeleously guarded and imparted only to a tiny circle of enlightened Aquarians.
These two Jesus's are incompatible, their messages, approach, background and culture do not sync-up at any point. The Jesus from the gospels pushes natural men out of their comfort zones - he convicts, angers, confronts, breaks us down, forgives and heals, the new age Jesus makes us feel good where we are. Personally, I've found that the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth has an enduring power that makes the "secret wisdom" of "St. Issa of Tibet" pale by comparison.
- SEAGOON
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Hi JB73,
with the exception of going to seminary, how can a simple christian compete with the aithest teachings of our school system? a godless person can gather a library of "fact" in 12+ years of schooling, and a regular person like myself can not compete with that extent of learning.
i know the truth, and have tried to be a good witness, but i have failed so many times i can not count, always those 2 things mentioned above.
what is your advise to remedy that situation -OR- remedy my complete lack of desire to even consider engaging in a religious conversation?
[/B]
Well, first let me say I can sympathize, Christian apologetics (giving "an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" - 1 Peter 3:15) while it is something we are called to has never been easy. Keep in mind that after Christ preached his first sermon in Nazareth his own neighbors wanted to throw him over a cliff and he warned "if the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." But that said, obviously it is something that we must be entered into with gentleness and respect, and keeping the admonition never to repay evil for evil foremost in your mind.
Anyway, I'm no apologetics wiz, but here are some general thoughts. First, keep in mind that your calling is to give a defense and that winsomely, not to "crush your opponent" with facts. And no, you don't need to go to seminary unless you have a calling to do so. I'd outline the following simply policy:
1) Concentrate first and foremost on your own heart and life. If you are defending a faith its obvious that you don't practice yourself, then your best presentation is going to seem utterly phoney and unconvincing. To that end, take stock of your own "non-verbal witness" and that of your family. Ask yourself am I a strong and sincere Christian? Do I pray? Do I read the word? Am I striving to live a sanctified life? Am I serving others or seeking to be served all the time? Am I patiently instructing my kids, are we gathering together for family worship? Am I good about "not forsaking the assembling" of the saints on Sunday? Also what is my demeanor? Do I endeavor "to stir up love and good works?" Have I really "died to self?" These aren't easy either, but they make a world of difference in any presentation.
2) Be as conversant as you can be with the "hope that you have" that means a daily study of the word and reading through edifying material. You'll find that nothing hamstrings your ability to introduce others to Christ than giving the impression that you don't know him very well yourself. Also remember we aren't selling a product as Sandman put it, we are introducing someone to the Savior who should be first in our own hearts.
3) Read some good general introductions to apologetics. I'd start with "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and then move on to the works of R.C. Sproul. They are written for laymen and are a quick read, but really do open up a treasure-trove of Christian Philosophy, Science, Theology, and make it accessible. Try the following titles by Sproul - Not a Chance, Defending your Faith, Reason to Believe, Renewing Your Mind and Consequences of Ideas. They'll open up an armory you never knew existed. You can get all of the books I mentioned online for a pittance at:
CVBBS.COM (http://www.cvbbs.com)
which really is the cheapest source for new Christian books on the net.
Anyway, I hope that helps. I really would encourage you strongly to pick up some of those books "Tolle, Lege!" as was said to Augustine - "Take up and read!" If you have any other specific questions, feel free to ask or email me privately. Be ye not discouraged brother! The weapons you have at your disposal really are mighty for pulling down strongholds.
- SEAGOON
PS: Two last pieces of advice. In a discussion, listen, no one really listens to anyone else anymore. We just wait impatiently for our chance to speak again. Also, actually care about the person you are speaking to. No one generally gives a damn about anyone else other than themselves and the world knows it. If you do, it'll be noticed.
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Impressive site. Good to hear from people who take a stand based on lots of study and research.
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>>I encountered Notovich's work while I was still traveling in New Age circles. It follows the general tenor of all the Aquarian or new age speculations about Jesus that were popular in the late 1880s. <<
Define "new age."
Then define "holy roller."
I'm sorry if I took this wrong but it seemed like an unqualified, subjective opinion to me.
>>the new age Jesus makes us feel good where we are.<<
How horrible. No vengeance or anything? How can anyone make any money with that?
Give me the old testament anyday - where they pluck out eyeballs..and do all sorts of dismemberments.
How dare they be a peaceful or subtle solution.
I'm glad I'm not 14 anymore
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Guys for those who want to spend the time reading it there is a great little book out there called "The Science of God". We did a 6 week study on it in our couples class and it was rather enlightening and entertaining. It poses many questions and attempts to provide answers to those and many other questions.
In short there can't be a true answer to if there is a being we call God or not. I believe there is and that is enough for me to have faith that in the end all will be forgiven and that I need to do my best with His help to live each day to its fullest and teach my children the difference between right and wrong. To do otherwise would be wrong and not what this planet needs from any of us.
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Reschke why can't one teach his children right from wrong without being superstitious at the same time? What's wrong with that?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>I encountered Notovich's work while I was still traveling in New Age circles. It follows the general tenor of all the Aquarian or new age speculations about Jesus that were popular in the late 1880s. <<
Define "new age."
Then define "holy roller."
I'm sorry if I took this wrong but it seemed like an unqualified, subjective opinion to me.
[/B]
The difference between the terms "New Age" and "Holy Roller" is that "New Age" was coined by the people in the movement. For instance, many an occult bookshop calls itself a new age bookseller. The term Aquarian is related. The "New Age" is the Age of Aquarius, of "enlightenment" and "change" and "peace" and "harmony" (with or without "granola.") This is as opposed to the "old age" dominated by war, bad vibes, and of course dusty old Christianity. On the other hand, Holy Roller is a derisive term used to describe evangelicals. No church outside of the Simpsons would call itself "First Holy Roller of..."
>>the new age Jesus makes us feel good where we are.<<
How horrible. No vengeance or anything? How can anyone make any money with that?
[/B]
Tweety, I doubt this will influence your view of "Holy Rollers" but I was earning over twice as much when I was still identifying myself as an "Aquarian." Additionally, I worked a nice 9 to 5 job, with defined days off where I didn't work. Here is how I spent my "day off" (Monday) today:
1) Did some emergency counseling with a serviceman whose family is in trouble.
2) Dropped off food at the house of a sick member of our church
3) Did a jail visitation
4) Then we finished off the evening having a lonely single over to our house for dinner and conversation.
I only note this because I am only one of many Holy Roller pastors who spend their lives this way, who don't have to. It's not about money, or power, or self-agrandizement. It's not even about "earning salvation" I am not one wit "more saved" today than I was when I first believed. Trust me, if any of those things were our objectives, my family would be on the wrong path entirely.
I spoke just yesterday with a woman whose missionary son (who is very well educated and could be earing a 6 figure income) is finally home taking a break from helping South East Asians after the Tsunami, this includes the hideous job of pulling long dead bodies off beaches, out of thickets, etc. A Muslim on Aceh asked him why he and his team were doing this, especially since he and his kin were happy when disasters struck infidels (he specifically commented that he had celebrated the news of 9/11). His answer was to quote: 1 John 4:10-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=1%20John%204:10-14&version=31)
Give me the old testament anyday - where they pluck out eyeballs..and do all sorts of dismemberments.
How dare they be a peaceful or subtle solution.
[/b]
Yeah Tweety, funny how the Old Testament tells us that real peace with God comes through an act of violence:
Isaiah 53:4-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2053:4-12;&version=31;) Subtle, eh?
Anywho, I'll sign off on that. I'm off to a conference for the next two days. I've got a rotten cold, so I promise not to enjoy it too much. In the meantime, I'm kinda uncomfortable about having a thread with my handle on it going on and on, so I'm happy to let you have the last word.
Grace and Peace to you.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Reschke why can't one teach his children right from wrong without being superstitious at the same time? What's wrong with that?
I think I mis typed what I meant to say. It should have been read as me saying that with my faith and the "superstitious" beliefs I have that it will help me. Yes people can teach their children the difference in right and wrong without belief in God as christians believe. I can't and won't ever condemn someone for that path through life its just not the one that I choose for me.
Thanks for pointing out my bobble there Siaf.
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>>In the meantime, I'm kinda uncomfortable about having a thread with my handle on it going on and on, so I'm happy to let you have the last word.
<<
Fair enough. Some don't approach other religions and philosophies as a fad (or like the stereotypical dumb blond approaching a new lipstick), and I think its a mistake to pigeon hole people as such. Obviously we disagree on spirituality. It appears yours (and ultimate judgement type religions) centers on getting the right answer asap, and I think mine (and eternal questing religions) centers on searching for answers and reason.
Its just perspective - to some, the destination is the goal, to others the journey is the purpose. I guess you follow what makes sense to you, and it would be ridiculous to pretend you believe things that make no sense to you.
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Heh Reschke pardon my harsh selection of words. Sometimes I envy people who have faith.
You know, I gained two new friends 2 days ago. Nice people. They came uninvited on my door and gave me leaflets telling stories of all kinds of things, alternative energy and such. ;)
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(QUOTE)
In the meantime, I'm kinda uncomfortable about having a thread with my handle on it going on and on, so I'm happy to let you have the last word.
Grace and Peace to you.
- SEAGOON
(UNQUOTE)
No worries, so far this is a rather nice civilized thread. Sorta like being in Sunday school. Good to hear various opinions about faith.