Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on February 28, 2000, 11:12:00 AM
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Got a question on tactics, I've run into the same problem repeatedly and still dont have an "ingrained" response...
Got to fly a few yesterday for 1st time in a week, 1st was a pony run, ended up high over 7 with 3 bogies below...bounced 205 1st..zoomed and worked spitty for 2 passes or so..switched to 109 that was trying to get up to me forced a spit-s and responded with hi wing over took a round in radiator as 109 came up into me as I bounced him..finished of the spitty and augered on deadstick...2nd ran into Lacy in spit (still in pony)...got two good bounces few hits..and ran into same split-s to reverse move..later had a bounce in a spit on a spit and had a perfect T in my Fe but he got nose around on same move...Every death yeserday on same basic set of circumstances...this is probably my biggest weakness from AW days..here the front aspect shot is brutal..do you just stay hi period and ignore the "top down" shot ..go a little lower and zoom up thru ..??? I love angles fighting but here the rules are different..seems to me i have two obvious options here..one is go "out of plane" the other just stay high..any other thoughts??
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Humble-
You bounced 3 TnB planes in the 51, got two, and managed a ditch? Not bad for the first time up in a bit.
You'll see a lot of the Split-S when hitting from high 6. The trick is to keep just high enough to avoid getting hit, but close enough to keep them turning. Once they are on the deck, no more Split-S! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The angle of you pounce is important too. Come in too hot and too steep and the bad guy will go up, and you are caught way low. You can extend and zoom, but you've lost some on the E side. Do this a couple more times and you are in trouble. Multiply 3 times for 3 bogies, and you can see that you were in severe disadvantage trying to hold down 3 at once. If you want to live, you may have to simply leave some of these situations after a pass or two.
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 02-28-2000).]
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hehe..actually i got all three (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I've got this on film and can send it to you if you want. I seem to find myself ending up in situation where a lower E con is getting good face shot as I try and dance on his head...I agree timing is biggest issue I'm in range at a point where I shouldn't be. What I'm beginning to believe is that this isnt a timing issue but a fundemental error in tactics since it seems constant. In AW I'd be zooming thru the momentary HO and onto the cons hi 6...here a good 1/2 sec burst at 200 and I'm toast...I've either got to stay higher or get out of plane...I hate to stay hi since prolonging the fight only allows bad things to happen but getting waxed in a pos-e pos alt setup is even worse (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
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Whoa! You're bouncing the 12 position? Better to work directly over the bad guy and drop on his high 6. Coming in on the nose aspect is asking for him to nail you. No sense giving him/her the chance!
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Im bouncing from the hi 6..sequence is roughly as follows...
Bounce..con split-s's...Hi yoyo or chop throttle immelman depending on speed..back in for second bounce...split-s...chopped immelman...stalling out above and behind con..dropping in on 6 from 2500 or so..con continues up thru split-s and tops out under me but shoots as nose pulls thru vertical
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Humble,
First never and I mean never follow a con through a split "S". If your coming down on a con's hi 6 and he goes into the Split "S" your going to have to go back up on the perch. The object is to not to zoom to high and allow him to regain his altitude. You gotta keep the pressure on. Now after your hi yo-yo come back down on him and force him nose low again. See where this is going? Every time he goes nose low to evade your pass he runs out of altitude and eventually will be so low that all he can do is flat turn and then he is dead.
Now like you said he may try to turn the spit S into a loop and come back up to you for the patiented dweebfire HO. You must watch him through his manuver and yours. If he continues in the vert, move out of plane to spoil his shot and go back up on the perch and watch him stall out. Then kick the rudder and come roaring down on him and blow him outta the sky.
Another thing you mentioned was a chopped throttle immelman?? Why would you chop the throttle during an immelman? You want all the horsepressure you can get to get over the top with as much manuver speed as you can.
Any way if you wanna work on this in the TA drop me a line and we'll get together.
Sharky
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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I'll almost always chop throttle on an immelman when I'm at the end game...i'm trying to scrape of as much extra E as possible to saddle up...obviously it's a judgement call but i'm trying to minimize vertical seperation at that point...I agree comepletely on the split-s to loop..I much prefer going out of plane to just staying hi..I've got the clip on the fight mentioned above..the 109 was carrying more e than i probably gave him credit for but I'm not at all happy with my choice of tactic. happy to zip it and send it to any all for comment.
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Send it anytime you like, I like viewing film! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Humble,
Ok if your going to chop the throttle to saddle up well thats fine. But remember if you slow down to saddle up and something goes wrong your a dead man flying. I would avoid saddling up with a Mustang or the 109. If your clouser rate is high, make a firing pass and go right back up on the perch.
Please send me the film. Maybe I dont understand the problem.
Sharky
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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Hiyas!
I prolly have a different method...I've flown the 51 for 9 years and high speed passes against a skilled pilot is futile.
I fake the pass until about 2.5 out...hold that distance above the bandit and wait to see how much patience this guy has.
The goal here is to get him to climb to you thinking he will get guns on...as he begins to do this, I nose up slightly and roll over on a wing, apply same direction rudder, keeping nose up, and opposite aerilon...skids the plane so to speak. The key thru this maneuver is to keep eyes on the entire time and to position ur plane directly over the bandits.
When he realizes that he cannot get his guns on, he will level or roll out, at which time you roll over on top of him. No matter which way he goes, you will have guns on for a shot as well as E to re-saddle and try again.
In the majority of cases, the re-saddle part will be unnecessary (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hope this helps...remember, it will take time to perfect this, so proceed with caution (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hope it helps!
Rude Out!
PS....Dont forget the all important SA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'll zip it tonight and send it on out. All critques welcome.
hehe..read your comment rude..sure wish I'd of followed it last night with TOWD..got a good pass in but all hits on fus no wing hits...he just ruddered me to death after I T&B'd with him..last time I go turning slow with a hog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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My counter to the split-s is to anticipate it and roll to the point where I can get a quick snapshot...doesn't always work but sometimes it does.
Rather than doing the same thing all the time though, I'll vary it each time. E.g anticipate a left or right break as well or one of my favourite moves (in a hog) is to go straight down on the con and use my roll to turn into his vector...works well.
Ex.
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Shaw's Fighter Combat has the complete playbook on this kind of engagement.
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Extreme-
I don't know if I'd do that (if I understand you correctly), because it places you at somewhat of a disadvantage if you miss. If I was the defending plane you would be doing exactly what I would hope you would be doing.
Shaw talks at length about such basics as closure rate, and when increasing (Line Of Sight) LOS and (Angle Of Attack) AOA force you to pull excessive G, making a lethal burst more and more unlikely (you won't have guns on-target long enough for lethal burst). With patience you can work this situation where you take no chances and your enemy has none.
The way the impatient guy buys it is to trade off too much energy for what looks like a good shot opportunity without thinking a couple steps ahead at what will be a great opportunity.
When I am attacked from above and split-S, I watch the other guy. If he goes up, I know I have trouble; if he tries to shoot me I just grin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I've always found that the real pro's seem to be able to maintain pos-e and pos-alt without excessive seperation...the pressure never comes off but you never get a good opportunity once they have the edge..TOWD did it to me couple nights ago..I had e and hung him out on merge..missed my one good chance..did exactly what you describe (wasted E saddling up for a mediocre shot..which i missed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif))..and then got ruddered to death in a low pony vs hog duel..he had just enough E to stay up over my nose and used that low speed reversal again and again to force me to evade till i had to split-s out..not good against hog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)..All I really had to do was keep my advantage till the right moment...course not many hog drivers can crank em round like that
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Humble,
Yes finding the right combination of pressure to maintaining the energy advantage is one of the hardest things to judge. Just keep practicing. I saw your film and emailed you some comments. However with possibly one exception you did a great job in that fight.
Sharky
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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still cant figure what I was thinking with that 109...guess my 2 grey cells were buzy generating heat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Keiren,
you mean the straight down dive?...I get one or two shots at this and then I'm outa there. I think one time I pulled a bit hard and broke my wings but usually it's an easy pull up on the stick if I miss and WEP back up to alt. I don't saddle up if that's what you're referring to.
Ex.
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Extreme-
Not necessarily a vertical dive, but the angle is important. If you come in hot and steep and the defender split-S's (assuming he timed it right), you now have to pull a lot of G's to get back up to perch quickly or reverse. You might get it back quickly enough to make another pass, but keep doing this and you will get worked down. Once you are operating on roughly the same alt you could be in trouble.
But, as you say you make one pass then out, then you are most probably safe, for now. If you popped a wing on a pass it does seem you are coming in at a high closure rate, and that excessive speed can be used against you if you aren't careful.
All I meant by my comment to you was that you can climb back up without taking a low percentage shot, and within maybe 3 turns have the shot you want. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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If you blow the shot and the guy does a split-s, he just wasted a ton of E. Split-S not a good E conserving maneuver. Immelman is tons better, however it takes 'longer' to perform the immelman cause you really slow down over the top. Try something like this, if it's vertical separation you want to minimize...
Guy split-s, he may roll while vertical, you don't know which way, so...
pull up 45 climb till you hit sustained turn speed..don't immel. Then, go into flat turn to bring bogey into your 3-9 line. What? Did he say 'flat-turn?'. Yes! Speed is constant, height is constant = NO E LOSS! Your turn rate will be better than if you tried to pull over in an immelman and you don't have to pull any power back and you keep vertical separation to a minimum while 'retaining' your own energy. It's kinda like that last 100 mph in a vertical zoom/hammerhead...complete waste of time..you can't do anything until you dive down again past 100 mph so you can maneuver, where your back where you started! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Split S works only if friendlies are near. Otherwise it is delayed death.
Too many times I found enemy plane deep inside my country, merrily wasting his E into series of Split S maneuvers.
Yes, Wells, I found flat turn great against Split S. It becomes lag pursuit after, and eventually a dedicated Split S-er will find himself too low and he will go for flat turn.
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Hristo and Wells-
Of course you are right. My comment was that taking too steep an angle for a low percentage shot could be blowing an advantage. The guy that stays up and keeps the pressure on should win every time.
Wells, you just described exactly what I do. This is what I was alluding to when I said he could have the shot he wanted within three turns, if he was patient. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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>>Split S works only if friendlies are near. Otherwise it is delayed death.
Too many times I found enemy plane deep inside my country, merrily wasting his E into series of Split S maneuvers.<<
Histro, I'd love any quick comments on our couple of "fight's"...i use the term loosely (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)...this morning. I was trying to avoid exactly what your describing by turning up and back into you when possible. It didnt do me much good since you either got a front aspect shot and/or forced split-s almost immdediately there after...any critique much appreciated.
Also were you the 109 in the 3rd go round..I switched to spit since I dont know 38 FM very well yet..and had better time of it till 38 showed up???
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IMO, early split-s could be quite effective.
If executed, say D1.5 or so and nme just starts low G climbing or flies straight, You'll end up his lo 12oc and there could be place for snapshot.
I found it quite effective after one spit did it to me and he ended up to my low 6 and BANG, I was dead...