Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: doobs on March 09, 2005, 07:38:30 AM
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give him credit for being tough, but not to safe
make really sure its empty (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/cop_accidently_shoots_himself_in_foot_during_safety_lecture_Mar_09_2005.html)
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At the local Police Academy here, a recruit will shoot himself/herself at rate of at least one person per graduating class. They do it when unholstering and holstering a Glock 17.
That dude was just plain stupid.
Karaya
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"I'm the only one in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry this Glock 40. I'm the *BLAM!*"
....too funny
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i shouldnt laugh but....ROFLMAO he's an idiot! like duh didnt verify the weapon was unloaded. real proffesionall there.
Actuall during a training session such as that when displaying a weapon in MOST areas its SOP to have the clip out and the breech open when discussing fireqrm saftey and showing the gun. guess this guy didnt read safety 101
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When he hit the slide release I heard the round slide into the chamber. I am a glock nut. I own quite a few of them. Glocks have very distinct sounds, when they fire, when you hit the slide release....ect. You can tell by the sound almost if you have a round going into the chamber. I didnt hear the "clank" you normaly hear when you hit the slide relase on an empty glock.
As for the Glocks going on when holstering it is the fault of the student, not the gun. When I went to SRT school in the Army we used Sig 228s and 226s, in my class alone we had three guys shoot themselves holstering there weapon. Lession? Keep your fingers clear of the trigger area.
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After watching it again....I noticed he is not just some cop...but a DEA agent....classic...
Ohh and wildcard please dont call a pistol or rifle mag a clip.... A clip of ammo is what you put into a Garand or K98 rifle. lol. Just a pet peve of mine I guess.
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A dea agent shooting himself is not really a huge trajedy in my book but..
I have allways felt that double action autoloaders were a complex solution to a nonexistant problem once they got bigger than say a PPK.
I think that they are a dangerous solution once the double action pull gets less than say 8 lbs or a half inch of trigger travel.
lazs
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I would agree to a point. While the weapon in question here has a 5.5LB trigger pull, it is just right. The length of the trigger pull on Glock pistols is a long one. Point being a Glock wont fire unless you pull the trigger.
I tend to lean towards the 9mms when it comes to choice of which round to use. I know alot of ppl like the .40s and .45ACP rounds. But with the 9mm I get quick follow up shots, and I shoot with well. I also tend to think shot placement is far more important than stopping power.
With the 9mms the 5.5lb trigger pull is crisp, and feels just right in my hand. I can pull off nice tight groups with it. This is somthing I have a hard time doing with the Sigs and 92FS (M9) 9mms. Which are both SA/DA pistols.
-Keg.
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Dude, that is a websight for the truely sick and disturbed.
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Notice the class got VERY uneasy when an assistant started to hand him an automatic rifle. Smart class.
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Originally posted by Kegger26
I tend to lean towards the 9mms when it comes to choice of which round to use. I know alot of ppl like the .40s and .45ACP rounds. But with the 9mm I get quick follow up shots, and I shoot with well. I also tend to think shot placement is far more important than stopping power.
-Keg.
Trust me, shot placement goes right out the window in most situations when the watermelon hits the fan. I'm a damned good shot, but don't quite trust myself enough to pop someone right between the peepers who is shooting back at me. I therefore opted for the .40 cal when I was a police officer.
I felt good about my choice after my Lieutenant shot a man robbing a convenience store three times with a 9mm. I spotted the guy two blocks away from the scene, and lost him behind some apartments after chasing him for three blocks. Initially, the Lieutenant (who is also a good shot) and I thought he missed. An hour later we got a call from the hospital advising us they had a man come in with three gunshot wounds. He was hit in the left rib area, left thigh, and left hip. I'm guessing he wouldn't have been running like a rabbit if he took those hits with a .40 cal instead of the 9mm, but that's just conjecture.
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Trust me, shot placement goes right out the window in most situations when the watermelon hits the fan. I'm a damned good shot, but don't quite trust myself enough to pop someone right between the peepers who is shooting back at me. I therefore opted for the .40 cal when I was a police officer.
I felt good about my choice after my Lieutenant shot a man robbing a convenience store three times with a 9mm. I spotted the guy two blocks away from the scene, and lost him behind some apartments after chasing him for three blocks. Initially, the Lieutenant (who is also a good shot) and I thought he missed. An hour later we got a call from the hospital advising us they had a man come in with three gunshot wounds. He was hit in the left rib area, left thigh, and left hip. I'm guessing he wouldn't have been running like a rabbit if he took those hits with a .40 cal instead of the 9mm, but that's just conjecture.
Would there be much improvement on stopping power with some of these new shock rounds I see ad's for everywhere? They're supposed to do a much better job of energy delivery to the target. Adrenaline can overcome alot of things to let somebody run away... but probably be alot harder if their internals are pulverized.
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well... it all really boils down to keeping your finger out of the damn trigger guard till you want to shoot.
I believe double action and long trigger pulls make people tend to want to get started a little sooner than they should and that the light pull in a panic makes things worse.
I am a good shot too I think but I still go with the old school thinking of taking my time in a hurry. I want to get in one hit and I figure I will have all the time in the world for a "folow up" shot if needed.
In Marshalls excelent study of all recorded gunfigthts a second or follow up shot increase the chance of stopping the bad guy a whopping couple of percent. you were far better off simply hitting them good and square with an effective round.
Some of the newer rounds do indeed make the 9 mm less of a pissant but... poor placement is allways magnified by a poor cartridge...
When I shot with the police.... they all beat me by double the amount of rounds. They shot twice as many. Some of em even hit their targets once or twice mine were head shots (practicing for the zombies). I probly wouldn't even bother to shoot at something I didn't think I could hit either. Gotta save ammo... mostly I only got 5 or six... maybe nine at best before I have to reload.
lazs
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I've rarely been as scared as when we gave my wife a magnum-44 to shoot. She accidentally fired the gun, almost hitting my uncles car.
Luckily she was pointing the gun down like I told her and she even missed her feet.
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Just an observation, but Ogrish.com is probably not what one could call worksafe.
YMMV.
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Siaf__csf
If you did not have confidence she knew what she was doing you should not have handed it to her.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Some of the newer rounds do indeed make the 9 mm less of a pissant but... poor placement is allways magnified by a poor cartridge...
Figured as much. The ad's are kinda funny. They make it seem like grazing somebody's toe with their shells will send the victim into immediate shock. Ahh.. the glory of advertising.
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Originally posted by indy007
Figured as much. The ad's are kinda funny. They make it seem like grazing somebody's toe with their shells will send the victim into immediate shock. Ahh.. the glory of advertising.
Coincidentally, I just took a pistol safety class today.
That guy put quite a few people in danger.
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Gtora: I know that. But sometimes you do stupidities. I _tried_ to give her advice on how to handle it.
Needless to say I haven't given her a gun after that. :)
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I always make everyone either come to my place or I go to theirs and give them a class on gun safety and my firearms features to make sure they are ready for the range.
Most of the times I have taken people shooting, I end up barely shooting making sure they dont do stupid stuff lol.
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Anyone know the full story? Did that disphit get fired?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Anyone know the full story? Did that disphit get fired?
absolutely too funny. some of you guys may be correct about evolution after all. is he related to dead?
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Well Siaf , I see the tantrum thingy has reached a new level. LOL
Nice avatar redo there.. Your are reaching all the way up to Jr. High level now. A new accomplishment for ya.
Sorry for the hijack guys. Resume. :D
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:eek:
Did he shoot himself in the foot? He was limping. But he carried on talking! OMG! You know he HAD to have been in "shock". Then the crowd getting jittery and one woman yelling "Put it down" in the background. Holy moly batman!
That guy will never live that down though...lol
"I'm the only one in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry this Glock 40. I'm the *BLAM!*"
....too funny
Agreed.:rofl
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When Brian brought the other firearm out..I woulda run like hell if i'd been in that room.
shamus
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He chambers round and with out safety tried to put into his holster....what a hooser. :rofl
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Glocks are notoriously unforgiving to carelessness due to their simple operation. I own a Glock19 and I am very very aware of how simple it is to shoot intentionally and how easy it is to screw up and shoot unintentionally
This guy made a simple mistake. Thankfully he didnt hurt anyone else and a whole room of people saw firsthand how dangerous firearms can be when improperly handled.
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Its a glock they have no safety other then that little level on the trigger.
That is somehow more safe then JUST a trigger.
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I heard that the agent left the room half-cocked after this incident....:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
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I am a good shot too I think but I still go with the old school thinking of taking my time in a hurry. I want to get in one hit and I figure I will have all the time in the world for a "folow up" shot if needed.
In Marshalls excelent study of all recorded gunfigthts a second or follow up shot increase the chance of stopping the bad guy a whopping couple of percent. you were far better off simply hitting them good and square with an effective round.
Word.
Originally posted by lazs2
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When I shot with the police.... they all beat me by double the amount of rounds. They shot twice as many. Some of em even hit their targets once or twice mine were head shots (practicing for the zombies).
LMAO! I've had that exact same experience at the range before :)
culero (was shooting pins not paper but still)
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Originally posted by Kegger26
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After watching it again....I noticed he is not just some cop...but a DEA agent....classic...
ROTF :)
culero (known a lot of those in the past, typical)
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I have to say in the last 1.5 years, I have had two cases where officers have shot themselves in the leg while holstering their sidearms. The cases are funny only because both of them are now back on duty.
Especially the supplemental reports from the other officers. "I heard a loud bang and saw a bright flash and Officer Bob yelled, "****! I shot myself!" and fell down.
In both cases they tried to stuff their guns (One a Glock, the other a Sig) and their hands into their holster at the same time.
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PS, shock doesn't make things stop running (be it a person or an animal) Bleeding out does. And for that, the bigger the wound channel, the better.
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I laugh at the classes reaction not at him shooting himself..
:lol
I got a question for some of you..
Someone at a gunrange told someone to hold their rifle straight up in the air and not at the ground..
That dosn't make since to me, there are generaly two safe directions to point a firearm and towards the ground seems more safe then up in the air to me..
I'd understand if it was over concrete but this was over a dirt/clay road...
:confused:
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WTF was this guy doing with live ammo at a SAFTEY CLASS??????
If anything unload all your live stuff or use a demo weapon with dummy rounds for emphasis. The only reason he should pull out a loaded weapon in a saftey class would be to clear it completly.
Other than that it should stay in his friggen holster.
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Originally posted by Dune
PS, shock doesn't make things stop running (be it a person or an animal) Bleeding out does. And for that, the bigger the wound channel, the better.
I've always understood that transferring as much momental energy as possible to a target with one shot is the best way to effect a "stop". If the ammunition used is of sufficient power and the projectile well-designed, immobilizing or knocking the target down is a reasonable expectation of a good center-of-mass shot.
Then, if "finishing" is desired, you should at least have the advantage of an unchallenged second shot opportunity.
I prefer the "knock-down" approach to the "bleed 'em" approach whether hunting or (in theory thus far, thankfully) self-defense. My hunting experience bears my opinion out (I'd much rather walk to where I saw 'em fall than follow a blood trail).
culero
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An old freind of mine was a DC cop for 10 years on the street when he got the transfer he wanted to armorer detail and Pistol instructor. He was very good as a street cop and an excellent armorer and insturctor. 2 weeks into the new gig he shot himself in the hand with a baretta while dismantleing it in the armory. It's always left me speechless. I thought barettas had loaded chamber indicators at least.
I know the obvious statements and questions at this point. He would never tell me what he was doing just before it happened. All I know is until I personaly make sure a gun is unloaded, I don't clean or start disassembling one.
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All very true. But, I'm more thinking of a small bullet making a small hole. I was very interested to read in BHD the views of the one SF trooper who felt that the .223 was just going through the bad guys and not stopping them. He'd much rather have had a .308.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in the Roy Weatherby school of faster is better. And the Robert Rourk theory of Use Enough Gun. Until you get to using .470 Nitro's on groundhogs, there is no such thing as overkill. There is DRT (dead right there) and having to track.
But, all things being equal, I'd rather trust my life to a .45ACP 230grn Hydro-Shok doing 850fps, than a 9mm 147grn Hydro-Shok doing 1000fps. Hopefully I never have to find out, but that's the way I'd bet.
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Originally posted by Dune
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But, all things being equal, I'd rather trust my life to a .45ACP 230grn Hydro-Shok doing 850fps, than a 9mm 147grn Hydro-Shok doing 1000fps. Hopefully I never have to find out, but that's the way I'd bet.
Me too. When I was shooting a lot, .44MAG was my platform because of choice for sport, but for self-defense I'm a 1911 beleever.
If the 12 guage isn't appropriate in the circumstances, of course ;)
culero
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Originally posted by Dune
All very true. But, I'm more thinking of a small bullet making a small hole. I was very interested to read in BHD the views of the one SF trooper who felt that the .223 was just going through the bad guys and not stopping them. He'd much rather have had a .308.
I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere that some of those SF types were using M193 ball in their M4s for the explosive effect that they wont get using SS109 ball.
Excel
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The real stopping power is contributed by a bloodpressure shock.
When you use hollow point or violently expanding ammo and you hit a large muscle or a major bloodvain it sends a shock to your vascular system which can either knock you unconcious or even kill you in one strike.
That's why full jacketed non-expanding rounds are the worst you can get for stopping an assailant - they basically make a hole and fly right through.
In an experiment where live goats were used as test subjects, several goats were shot from the side through both lungs.
With the non-deforming full jacket rounds the effect was amazingly low. In fact, when shot with a 9mm through both lungs the goat just looked around and continued eating. It took over half an hour before the animal finally collapsed.
With a special expanding round (I can't recall which label they used many anyway) a hit to the lungs killed in 1.2 - 4 seconds.
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I know the obvious statements and questions at this point. He would never tell me what he was doing just before it happened. All I know is until I personaly make sure a gun is unloaded, I don't clean or start disassembling one.
Humans make mistakes. Except Jackal1, who apparently is perfect. ;)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The real stopping power is contributed by a bloodpressure shock.
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Good information as it applies to the appropriate target type.
Targets that have a structure with significantly strong physical structure (such as large thick bone, extremely thick muscle and gristle, or even armor) don't respond as well to an expandable or frangible projectile. Its on these targets you want solids, in order to maximise penetration (the target is designed to minimize the penetration and must be defeated).
culero
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Humans make mistakes. Except Jackal1, who apparently is perfect. ;)
Naw, not perfect. Just a hell of lot closer than you are. Your skirt is showing. Grow up.
I had a Llama 9 go off on me once. I never did figure out exactly how it did it,but the outcome was thankfully hilarious. My wife and daughters thought the hole in the seat of my pants was TOO funny. :D
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Blah :D
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well... I like velocity if I can get it but.. hunters know that it isn't allways enough. It sure seems that a relatively slow round like the 44 mag or 454 casul drops deer and hogs allmost instantly while some of the 7mm and 30 caliber rounds traveling twice as fast have spotty results..
That being said... I have killed rabbits and ground squirles with the 44 with some strange results... somtimes it is allmost explosive and others... the crittrer is dead with hardly any visible damage.
penetration is important. you need to get to the vitals to shut em down and bleed em out. that is true.. velocity causes hydrostatic shock as does expansion and bullet shape... most full jacketed rounds are.... well... rounded.. they make holes that close up quickly with relatively little tissue damge (compared to sharp shouldered bullets or EXPANDED hollow points... a hollow point that fails to expand is basicly... a round nose FMJ.
lazs
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Originally posted by Dune
But, all things being equal, I'd rather trust my life to a .45ACP 230grn Hydro-Shok doing 850fps, than a 9mm 147grn Hydro-Shok doing 1000fps. Hopefully I never have to find out, but that's the way I'd bet.
I prefer the Cor-Bon 230gr +P ammo (950fps) .45 ammo. I'll never own a 9mm, my next purchase will be a Glock 23 or HK Compact 40 to use as a Concealed Carry.
Karaya
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and sciaf.. are you really one of those shemales and... are you the one who keeps emailing me?
lazs
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I prefer the Cor-Bon 230gr +P ammo (950fps) .45 ammo. I'll never own a 9mm, my next purchase will be a Glock 23 or HK Compact 40 to use as a Concealed Carry.
Karaya
Being a fellow CCW'er, I'll be the 1st to tell you that MY 9mm Glocks (26, 17) have NEVER EVER failed me in a self defense shooting situation. . . . . .
Of course, thank God I've never been in a self defense shooting situation, and hope to never be!:aok
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nothing wrong with a 9mm... just wouldn't be my choice.
lazs
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Lazs did the e-mails contain pictures of scarsely clothed she-males in exposing positions dressed in black lace?
If yes, it wasn't me. :cool:
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well... that's a relief I suppose.
lazs
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I shot a huge rat with a .40 S&W as he was running away through an 8" sewer pipe that was in our fence yard. The projectile must have gone through his rectum and traveled the length of his spine exiting above but not through his skull. it was a lucky shot but amazing none the less. the animal looked intact except for the exit hole. there was no blood.
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Originally posted by lazs2
nothing wrong with a 9mm... just wouldn't be my choice.
lazs
Word. Whatever you can most reliably hit the target firstest/fastest with is arguably the best for you. As always, YMMV.
I personally prefer .44MAG for sporting use and .45APC for self-defense carry because I've shot those a lot and feel confident with them, so I want the muzzle energy and projectile profile they offer.
But energy is wasted unless its expended IN the target. Less is much better than none.
culero
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Originally posted by storch
I shot a huge rat with a .40 S&W as he was running away through an 8" sewer pipe that was in our fence yard. The projectile must have gone through his rectum and traveled the length of his spine exiting above but not through his skull. it was a lucky shot but amazing none the less. the animal looked intact except for the exit hole. there was no blood.
The most impressive "stop" shot I've ever witnessed was one I made personally.
My family alerted me that there was a stray dog on the property. I found a pit bull dog I didn't recognize from anywhere near wandering loose, with no collar. When I approached, it confronted me aggressively.
I shot it from the window ledge of my El Camino (approx. waist height from the ground) with a .44MAG 20" carbine, using a handloaded round (225gr Hornady semi-jacket HP, 27gr IMR4227, Winchester Large Pistol). I targeted its rightside eye socket. Range approximately 50 feet.
The dog was facing me headon. It lifted about half a foot off the ground and traveled smartly and straight away about 10 feet before hitting the ground again. A wad of what appeared to be excrement flew a considerably farther distance :)
It never so much as twitched.
I found no exit wound. The corpse seemed to weigh about 50 pounds.
I rated the performance and application of the weapon and munition in this incident as A+.
culero
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Originally posted by culero
The most impressive "stop" shot I've ever witnessed was one I made personally.
My family alerted me that there was a stray dog on the property. I found a pit bull dog I didn't recognize from anywhere near wandering loose, with no collar. When I approached, it confronted me aggressively.
I shot it from the window ledge of my El Camino (approx. waist height from the ground) with a .44MAG 20" carbine, using a handloaded round (225gr Hornady semi-jacket HP, 27gr IMR4227, Winchester Large Pistol). I targeted its rightside eye socket. Range approximately 50 feet.
The dog was facing me headon. It lifted about half a foot off the ground and traveled smartly and straight away about 10 feet before hitting the ground again. A wad of what appeared to be excrement flew a considerably farther distance :)
It never so much as twitched.
I found no exit wound. The corpse seemed to weigh about 50 pounds.
I rated the performance and application of the weapon and munition in this incident as A+.
culero
those shots are very gratifying. We had some raccoons terrorizing our back porch and eating the fish (Koi) out of our pond. they would do this during the wee hours so we weren't really doing much to deter them however on one night one must have climbed up some decorative shelves to get to the fish food and brought the whole thing down with a crash. pissed and alarmed I look out of my glass door towards the pond. seven raccoons having a party, hmmm. the only gun (long arm not in a safe) at hand is my sheridan .177 air rifle. I grab it pump it 10 times chamber a pointy lead pellet and open the door. all of the racoons scatter but one, a big male and he goes up on his hind legs and hisses. from about 30 feet in the dark I aim at his head and fire. he drops like a bad habit. I go back to bed. the next day I examine the kill. the pellet had entered just above and slightly right of his left eye. of all the animals I've ever harvested that raccoon was my favorite. it was a very lucky shot indeed.
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"I personally prefer .44MAG for sporting use and .45APC for self-defense carry because I've shot those a lot and feel confident with them, so I want the muzzle energy and projectile profile they offer."
I pretty much agree with that. I pretty much follow it but the boundries blur.
If I had to pick one handgun for every use it would probly be the 44 mag. I have a lot of time with em and My "little" cut down to 4" and despured redhawk is a pretty neat, if somewaht heavy, pocket gun. Nothing more fun to plink with than a 44 mag either.
Alternately... the .357mag is a great round and I have a j frame of scandium that weighs 12 oz in .357... can be fired from inside the pocket if you were so inclined (shrouded hammer) if you didn't mind setting yourself on fire. a good .357 is my second choice for plinking with the .45 third along with a 22
I simply don't like reloading .357's tho 44mag and 45 are great. Your load sounded way hot even in a carbine but I was thinking 250 grain slug... with a 225 it is still kinda hot for a hndgun tho. I have settled on loads that run about 1200 fps out of a 4" with 250 grain semi wadcutter or... in the house... 240 grain hydrashock by federal.
lazs
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
At the local Police Academy here, a recruit will shoot himself/herself at rate of at least one person per graduating class. They do it when unholstering and holstering a Glock 17.
You have to be kidding / exaggerating right? If your not than I have to give your local municipality credit for hiring the handicapped. I'm not gonna say the length of time that has passed since the last range accident here because I don't want to jinx it but it was before I was hired.
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At the police range facility here I have only seen one accdent and it was a glock and a leg shot.
lazs
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Originally posted by storch
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hmmm. the only gun (long arm not in a safe) at hand is my sheridan .177 air rifle. I grab it pump it 10 times chamber a pointy lead pellet and open the door.
Great weapon actually. Before I moved out of town I kept one handy for neighborhood varmints (I lived close to a fact food chicken joint whose dumpster attracted many feral cats which had obnoxious behavior) and used it to eliminate literally dozens of them in the 3 years I was there. Perfectly matched weapon/target that.
Originally posted by storch
snip
all of the racoons scatter but one, a big male and he goes up on his hind legs and hisses. from about 30 feet in the dark I aim at his head and fire.
Comment: depending on the target's size (I'm thinking the coon is prolly bigger than the average cat) I often loaded two pellets. Chamber one open the bolt and a second will feed no prob (did in my .177 Sheridan anyway). Little less velocity but at <30' no prob, and I liked the knockdown power on a running target (I use center mass aimpoint when they're moving).
Originally posted by storch
snip
it was a very lucky shot indeed.
Man that's a cool feeling ain't it? (I mean that "Use the Force" and it worked thingy)
Most satisfying trigger pull I have ever made was while hunting in a drawn-lot whitetail deer hunt on a nearby federal refuge (they use hunts to manage population in years when forage is heavy).
I'd spent two days walking the ground scouting in the month prior. I knew where I wanted to be at daylight - walking in a dry flood control ditch a couple of miles from the road where I'd found several beds and fresh sign. I entered the area at gate open time (twilight -30) and navigated to my ditch using moonlight. I arrived where I wanted to start the hunt at twilight (don't ya love it when a good plan works? :)
So, here I am slowly stalking down the ditch, stealth mode. I went less than a quarter mile, and was rewarded with a close flush. Fat doe, she spooked from about 50 feet in front of me and took off headlong across a salt grass pasture, 90 degrees heading from the ditch, an interesting deflection shot.
JUST as I mounted, she slowed JUST a hair and looked back. I swear to God, the next is true. Just as I achieved weld with my cheek to the stock, before beginning sight alignment (target in scope but no focus on crosshair yet) I inadvertantly squeezed a hair more on the trigger than I meant to (was just trying to take the slack up, borrowed weapon, not familiar enough with it, shouldn't have done that, oh well, anyway....)
The .270 discharged, her rear legs kicked all the way forward bringing her hooves adjacent her shoulder blades, and she crumbled. All engines full stop. She stayed in place, no twitch. Amazing.
I paced it at 120 yards. Entry wound was exactly 4 inches directly aft the point of the shoulder, a perfect heart shot. I couldn't have done better if I had sighted the shot.
I credit it partly to luck, partly to mechanics (after all, you mount enough times and you develop good habits, I'd been shooting long guns regularly and often for 20+ years at that age of my life). But I can still remember well (it was 20 years and 4 months ago almost to the day) the feeling of awe at what had just occured. Truly a precious moment in my life.
Friggin b*tch damn near killed me, she was fatter than hell and I had never tried to drag a deer through salt grass before - that plan went to hell ("I'll take a rope in my waist bag and drag it out") and I ended up having to heft her up on my shoulders and carry her the 2 miles back to the road. Took me a couple of hours with many stops LOL!
Don't get me started, I love this stuff :)
culero
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Originally posted by lazs2
A dea agent shooting himself is not really a huge trajedy in my book but..
Same thing I thought. DEA, oh that explains it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
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If I had to pick one handgun for every use it would probly be the 44 mag.
snip
Nothing more fun to plink with than a 44 mag either.
Absolutely, same here. One handgun only, gotta be the .44MAG. Love it, most versatile thing out there. Only reason I choose the 1911 for carry is its size/shape (I'm large, it fits behind my hip almost invisibly, and is low drag on the draw) and the very slight second shot speed advantage it has over the revolver.
Speaking of "small" in .44MAG, ever see a ROHM MOD.57 .44MAG? 4" DA revolver. I have never heard of this, but ran into it in a pawn shop for $200 a few years back. The size aspect was so cool I had to grab it. Its about the size of a typical .357 service revolver, heavier of course. Piece of crap in terms of finish appearance, but I've shot a few rounds through it, it works ~shrug~. I keep it as a curiousity and potential "not essential to retain after use" auxiliary carry piece.
I can't find it by Googling, could take a digital pic if ya haven't seen one and want to.
Originally posted by lazs2
snip
Alternately... the .357mag is a great round and I have a j frame of scandium that weighs 12 oz in .357... can be fired from inside the pocket if you were so inclined (shrouded hammer) if you didn't mind setting yourself on fire. a good .357 is my second choice for plinking with the .45 third along with a 22
I like .357 third behind the stated choices (it is still #1 on the one-shot-stop charts, isn't it?). Although I prefer large bore, you can't argue with performance and some would decide its more versatile than .44MAG (I won't digress to .41MAG which IMO is an oddity).
My wife has a SWEET S&W 686-3 6 inch I am really impressed with, its had a custom trigger job somewhere and I've never felt as smooth a double action as this particular individual. Only knock is the damn trigger is TOO hair, prolly 2 ounces with zero creep, so its dangerous as anything but a target piece. Damn shame, the gunsmith shoulda known better. Still, beautiful finish, strong as an ox, nice piece. I just can't get to like the shape of S&W pistol frames, tho, they simply don't feel natural in my hands, I much prefer Rugers.
My favorite .357 is my stainless 4 5/8ths Blackhawk, stock grips. Its a knocked-around tool (I've actually used the grip framemember to drive a small nail once, long story but true :)) with stock trigger. I use it to carry in the boat, salt air and all that. Strictly a tool, but I can shoot a 25-cent-piece size group with it at 25 feet, so it works as a defense weapon just fine.
Originally posted by lazs2
snipYour load sounded way hot even in a carbine but I was thinking 250 grain slug... with a 225 it is still kinda hot for a hndgun tho. I have settled on loads that run about 1200 fps out of a 4" with 250 grain semi wadcutter or... in the house... 240 grain hydrashock by federal.
lazs
Yeah that load was one I creeped up to from several grains of powder less, yer right its pretty damned hot. Its the max my 7 1/2 Super Blackhawk will eat with no visible signs of case/primer distortion. Matter of fact, my carbine is a Savage 1894 Model and apparently its a tad looser than the pistol, because the same load produces just a teeny hint of a lip around the pin mark in the primer. I use it there with a little trepidation :)
I worked up this load after a shooting incident, only true self-defense with a weapon discharge involved I've been party to. I was motivated to research the load for a quite interesting and amusing reason. Indulge me, you'll like this :D
I awoke one night to the sound of men shouting, about midnight. I went out my back door to investigate.
Parked in the driveway that runs past my house to the pasture behind my house, just in front of the closed gate, I saw a car, engine running, headlights on. Two men were in front of it, between the car and the gate, engaged in a fistfight.
I walked over there, stopped at 50 feet distance, and trained my Maglight on them, announcing my presence in my best drill instructor voice (my life experience includes the command of two different military precision drill teams, one ROTC one USAF Regular) "WTF, OVER???"
The closest subject turned to face me, they stopped fighting, and he told me "Turn that ***** flashlight off!" Of course, I didn't, and repeated myself.
This moron's reaction was to yell "I told you to turn that ***** flashlight off, now I'm gonna whup yer ass!" Then, with that said, he charged me at full speed.
OK. Normally, my protcol by dint of my study of CQB and philosophy of application of force at this point would be to stand my ground, time a sidestep to allow him to begin to pass, and stroke him carefully across the head with the Maglight, being careful to stun him but not create more than maybe a minor skull fracture at most, ideally just a minor concussion. Just put him down, no need to hurt him badly.
But, problem. I've got the Maglight in my weak hand. I can still go, but only 85% confidence of precision as opposed to close to 100% with strong hand.
Reason its weak hand is I have the Super Blackhawk in strong hand.
Now, my dilemma is that he's started from 50 feet, closing fast, decision time. I do not believe in pistol whipping, too much bad can happen. Probability of a stop with the Maglight is high, but not certain.
Deciding factor is the possibility he manages to engage and grapple for the weapon somehow. I rate this as unlikely but unacceptable as a risk. So, I did what I do not believe in, but quickly decided was necessary.
I fired a "warning shot".
I just raised the weapon at arm's length straight up and fired it. This is a rural area, I'm OK with the "where's it going" thing for expediency's sake. I want to both announce that he's bringing his unarmed stupid prettythang to a potential gunfight, AND at the same time place the weapon as far away from him as possible if he chooses to continue to close. Next step is back to standard doctrine (engage with the Maglight if necessary). I'm doing my best here to deter contact, OK?
Ever see a rock singer take a run at the audience, then lean back while dropping to his knees and sliding on the stage? That's what this butthead did, screaming "NOOOOOOOOOO DOOOOOOONNNNNN'T SHOOOOOOT MEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!" The change of facial expression from belligerent to panicked beyond imagination was truly remarkable :)
Whole thing played out well, the other guy ran but returned after a while when it became apparent I was yelling lessons at a live and mobile idiot rather than a corpse, they left without further incident and never returned. End of problem.
The whole point of this story was about the handload, tho. See, I was just beginning to learn handloading at that time. I was using something like Unique or Bullseye or something similar, don't remember exactly.
Anyway, the muzzle flash was ENORMOUS, dude! I was flabbergasted. I saw side flame at least 8 inches long in my peripheral vision. I have no clue as to how long the main flame was, but it lit the scene up like a lightning flash. If I hadn't had the weapon high, I woulda been blinded for sure (remember, midnight and pitch friggin dark).
My next opportunity to study the matter focused on researching the subject and obtaining various powder types. IMR4227 proved in my experience to produce the least flash in relation to power I could figure out. I could be wrong, but that's where I got (20+ years ago, I haven't loaded much in the last 18 so you may know something better available now).
So I creeped it up observing case/primers until I saw a problem, and backed down a few tenths of a grain. I never intended this as a round to use a lot of, but rather as a "keep it in the gun for emergency use or hunting" thing, no need to abuse a good weapon.
If I remember right that was a compressed load at that weight.
Side note, I used the same powder and method to max out a load with Hornady 240gr FMJ point. I wanted to experiment with what 44MAG could do in terms of penetration.
There's a 10" creosote post (or was) in good shape with explosive-looking exit wounds from full-diameter penetrations out there in that pasture, I was kinda pleased/amused with that for an afternoon once :lol
culero
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Originally posted by Monk
Same thing I thought. DEA, oh that explains it.
Yeah I've met a very few of 'em that were OK, mostly idiots in my experience.
culero (had their local undercover car repair jobs in my shop for a few years, shot with 'em some at the range a few times)
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you can buy a new hammer and trigger for the .357
I can get a second shot in plenty of time with just about any gtun I can think of. If you do the first one right you won't need it (even shooting straight up in the air is "right" in some cases as your example shows)... If you do the first one wrong... you will have even less chance of making the second one work out... gunfire tends to make people panic and be less than ideal targets.
The reason the .45 acp gets relagated to third for plinking is it's rainbow trajectory and with normal sights... inabilityu to be useful at various ranges. The .357 is VERY accurate... doesn't throw away the expensive brass and shoots flat like a 44 mag.. A 22 is allways fun and cheap and... a few cylinders or mags full of 22's will settle down a flinch that the 44 gave me.
sciaf... you seem to feel that it is fine for you to own and enjoy guns and even to carelessly handle them or allow your wife to yet... you are against your fellow man having these same rights... Is that a fair assesment?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
you can buy a new hammer and trigger for the .357
Yeah but she's happy with it as is and I don't wanna use it, so no need. Its mostly a showpiece in her mind (although she is very capable with handguns and does fire a few through it periodically just because).
Originally posted by lazs2
I can get a second shot in plenty of time with just about any gtun I can think of. If you do the first one right you won't need it (even shooting straight up in the air is "right" in some cases as your example shows)... If you do the first one wrong... you will have even less chance of making the second one work out... gunfire tends to make people panic and be less than ideal targets.
All very true. (Well, I'm trusting you as to your ability ;))
Don't misunderstand me, my point about second shots relative to the decision to use a 1911 for self defense carry isn't the largest factor. I agree the difference in times between semi-auto and revolver for a skillful shooter may be so small as to be relatively insignificant, or even nil. Its a skills thing. In my case, I am marginally faster on target with the 1911, but admittedly only marginally.
The large factor for me is the carry itself. Nothing "fits" me as well as my slabsided friend. It just feels right, and confidence is important. Plus, those flat sides slide like a sled on snow as it draws. I am significantly faster to draw and mount with it than a large revolver in a concealed carry (plus the revolver simply won't conceal as well). First shot wins when all else is equal, and the munition is adequate in power, so I choose 1911. Of course YMMV. Many "right" choices exist :)
Originally posted by lazs2
The reason the .45 acp gets relagated to third for plinking is it's rainbow trajectory and with normal sights
snip
a few cylinders or mags full of 22's will settle down a flinch that the 44 gave me.
My philosophy regarding CQB for self defense is that my handgun will almost certainly never be used at a range that makes trajectory relevant. If I enjoy distance in a dangerous situation, I'd tend to use cover and all available means of escape rather than stand my ground and lob shots. If a rare situation came up that dictated engagement at all costs, I'd tend to try to use cover and close the range if possible.
In this situation, I'd much prefer a rifle if possible, of course. But I'm not a cop or a soldier, so I rate this possibility as almost nil. I'm lucky enough to say I can control my circumstances and exposures. Therefore my statement regarding the relevance of trajectory to my personal considerations. Of course, again, YMMV.
Agreed as to .22's value as a training aid. I am a lifelong and avid long gun shooter since the age of 8, but never used handguns until age 30. I had a whim to try handguns as a hobby so I bought a couple of Rugers - a Single Six with both cylinders and my Super Blackhawk.
I literally taught myself to shoot by dry firing at the TV while relaxing at night after supper (ID a character in the show as "target", mount and dry fire a head shot whenever target appears, evaluate sight alignment as hammer hits bottom, wash rinse repeat 1000s of times). Weekends I'd go burn as much of a brick in the .22 as I could without getting bored, then finish with a box or two in the .44 for record. Didn't take me long to get where I wanted to be.
Quick anecdote to illustrate I agree totally as to the value of the first shot and the ability of revolver to make second shots: I once shot pins with a group I'm acquainted with, most of whom are federal law enforcement types who are also shooting enthusiasts. I brought the Super Blackhawk as weapon. They all laughed and ribbed me mercilessly when I opened my rug.
I shot last. My times beat every one of theirs (all using their semi-auto service weapons) significantly, plus I only ever expended one shot per pin, period. (Some of these guys had to change magazines, dude. Amazingly, one of 'em changed a second magazine before he cleared one string.)
I politely chuckled just a tad as the pot holder forked their money over. I'm a polite guy :)
culero
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I think we agree... I even used BB guns and the tv for "training" many years ago..
I like the feel of the 1911 a lot.. I like the feel of a good revolver too... for defense, I don't care about trajectory or even accuracy. If they are more than 20 feet away they are probly not a threat in most cases....
I was talking about plinking.. that is what I do. I don't shoot at people very often but I do a lot of plinking and showing people how to shoot (goodwill stuff) and that is what I base a lot of gun buying on.
for defense... you need something you will carry... check out the smith 340pd.. it is 12 oz .357... everyone asks "is this a real gun?" when I hand it to em... it will fit in your front pocket and you won't know it is there... if a cell phone is easy for you to carry then the PD will be no problem... Talk about loud and muzzle blast!!!
The thing will set em on fire at any range you need it. If someone gets hit with a 125 grain federal HP they are gonna stop being mean to me. I love the .45 and my 44's but... check one of these babies out... the recoil is horrendous tho and I am not one to be "sensitive" to recoil.
My first 44 was a super blackhawk in '73 ... I still own it. I have over 50,000 rounds through it and cut the barrel down to 5.5" a 10 years or so ago.
any kind of shooting is fun tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
snip
I was talking about plinking.. that is what I do. I don't shoot at people very often but I do a lot of plinking and showing people how to shoot (goodwill stuff) and that is what I base a lot of gun buying on.
Rgr all. And we also agree about plinking (can't beat .44 and .22).
Originally posted by lazs2
snip
for defense... you need something you will carry... check out the smith 340pd.. it is 12 oz .357... everyone asks "is this a real gun?" when I hand it to em... it will fit in your front pocket and you won't know it is there... if a cell phone is easy for you to carry then the PD will be no problem... Talk about loud and muzzle blast!!!
The thing will set em on fire at any range you need it. If someone gets hit with a 125 grain federal HP they are gonna stop being mean to me.
Yeap. Matter of fact, isn't that round #1 on the one-shot-stop chart?
My thing is that I simply don't go places where I need to be armed anymore. I used to, but don't have the need or inclination to now. There's a lot to be said for simply choosing where you want to be. Point is, I rarely have the need lately to have the weapon in concealed carry.
I've been making do with a derringer for those times that I do want something on me, for exactly the reasons you point out.
Now, of course out on the road in traffic you never know what you may encounter, so I do carry the 1911 with a couple of extra magazines in a rug in the car. I'm sure you'd agree that application makes its size/weight less of a consideration. Whenever I feel the need to take it with me when I get out of the car, it fits nicely behind my hip in a belt carry, magazines in hip pocket.. Just the equipment I need and no more.
Thanks for the tip on this piece, I'll be looking and prolly in the market, it sounds great. If nothing else, I may select it as a replacement for what I require my wife to have in her purse whenever she leaves the house (currently a Detective Model .38 loaded with +P daisy cutters). She doesn't go bad places either, but unarmed obnoxious buttheads are everywhere and she doesn't enjoy the size and ability I do to allow her to intimidate them into leaving her alone. She needs a persuader :)
Originally posted by lazs2
snip
any kind of shooting is fun tho.
lazs
Word. We'd all be better off if more people realized that.
Its always nice to discover other well-focused enthusiasts. ~S~
culero
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http://www.crimsontrace.com/
When I Googled to look at that Smith, I found a forum post that mentioned these. Very neat idea.
You know anything you can tell me about them?
culero
PS - here's the post (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=243) I referred to, the author seems to feel as you do regarding this weapon.
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culero, the guy in the post pretty much said it but... I have no use for laser grip thingies on this tiny little gun nor do I have any use for 38 special loads in it... I have owned enough 38 special j frames in the past.
Mine.. I spent money on eagle secret service grips... well grip migt be too strong of a word here... My "grip" is one finger on my large hands. The stock grips are some crappy sticky rubber that is all the rage for dampening recoil and making people into lousy shots... They are useless.
What good is a shrouded, rounded pocket gun if the grips are like trying to get used chewing gum out of your pocket? I got ebonywood SS griops for mine... slips in and out of the pocket easily.
The gun is unbelievably light. It will sit in your front pocket without anyone knowing. The gun looks and feels fake. It also has a gritty feel to the action that is slightly unpleasant. It won't wear in because I won't shoot it that much.
Shooting it.. Nothing you have shot will prepare you for shooting 125 federal .357's in it. The word recoil needs to be redefined... I t hurts to shoot it. My brother shot it one time and asked if I could get my money back. I have only fired 5 rounds in a row out of it one time. It is a J frame smith tho and as such should shoot 4-5" groups at 25 yards like all the rest... I will steel myself and try. muzzle blast is on the "end of the world" scale at the range everyone stopped and watched after the first round... smaller hands may be better tho with this gun.
Now... that brings me to the point... like you,I no longer go places that may be a danger... maybe.. who knows? church may be a bad spot or the court these days... Mostly being around guns is habit and enjoyment...Kimber on the counter as we speak... taken from the nightstand.. I travel with the kimber in my bag.
If I ever again feel the need to carry all the time I will have the PD. I have had a lot of guns and the PD is a no nonsenencense, powerful gun that is absolutely the best tool for not being seen to carry and not having an excuse to leave home and.... for stopping a close range dangerous situation. I wouldn't want to get into a gunfight with it but.. It would do if I did my part. Lots of bad guys have been outgunned by a J frame smith over the years.
It just seemed like a good idea and better for about everything than my PPK or Makarov so far as defense goes. They even make a nifty little "jet" speedloader that springs in five new rounds in the blink of an eye.. Like you would ever need that.
lazs
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Originally posted by EN4CER
You have to be kidding / exaggerating right? If your not than I have to give your local municipality credit for hiring the handicapped. I'm not gonna say the length of time that has passed since the last range accident here because I don't want to jinx it but it was before I was hired.
I'm not kidding.
Karaya
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ROFL!
Saw this video which was in another thread which pointed to this one.
I nearly did the same thing on my day out with Lazs! Well not really. I had to ask lazs how to hold the gun when pulling that slide back, ie finger outside the trigger guard, but OK to hold fingers on the outside of the guard itself. I pointed it down at the ground at a 45° angle when I did.
BUT......................
Having seen the video, I'd say it was a deliberate act - especially when he said "OK, fetch me the other gun"! That got the class rattled and brought home the gravity of the situation.
Of course, I'm not suggesting that a live round was used. But would it not have been possible to use some sort of blank round? The sound of the gun going off was nowhere near as loud as Lazs's hand held cannon.
It reminded me of a film I saw about SAS selection jungle training in Sarawak/Borneo. The trainer asked one of the recruits to bring a box that had been found over to where the rest of the group was standing. As the recruit picked it up, it burst into flames. It had been rigged as an incendiary device. The trainer's point was "NEVER pick anything up in the jungle"
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Of course, I'm not suggesting that a live round was used. But would it not have been possible to use some sort of blank round? The sound of the gun going off was nowhere near as loud as Lazs's hand held cannon.
Modern recording technology can only produce a dynamic range of 120db. Compressed way way less. Less than less played through computer speakers. :)
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beet... through the electronic muffs you and tomato were wearing the sound of my "cannons" was about like that of a TV gun... they muffle loud noise and enhance quiet ones. I try to teach basic gun safety and have fun at the same time when taking new people out. That is why I didn't shoot much and watched you guys.
If you recall... you wanted to take off the muffs and hear what the 44 mag sounded like without ear protection and I wouldn't let you. I would advise against anyone shooting (especially powerful handguns) without ear protection.
jb88 did and now... he is not only gay but can't hear a word I say.
lazs
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lazs, rgr all, I totally agree with the philosophic points you expressed, the points about grips and utility, and am receptive to your preference for this particular weapon for the purpose you cite.
I actually meant to ask if you had any experience or knowledge regarding the performance of that grip-contained laser, I'd never seen them before and am intrigued.
Others, listen and heed what lazs is saying about hearing protection. Shooting any handgun without protection is a risk of hearing damage/loss. Shooting a .44MAG without hearing protection is a sure-fire recipe :)
culero (stuff 'em or muff 'em is my motto)
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My BIL is DEA, and I wouldn't trust him with a BBgun, but the government gives him a 44' pursuit boat and highpowered weapons .
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Yeah. Same here. Don't get me wrong, I've known quite a few DEA doods, and some of 'em were fine folkses.
But in my experience a lot of 'em tend to be just as much idiots and thugs as the criminals they're supposed to be targeted towards.
The component of their attributes represented by their Federal sanction makes them more dangerous to us as a society than drug smugglers.
IMHnsO of course, YMMV.
culero
edit for PS - I just realized you and I share something, Lizking - my BIL is a badge too. He's police chief in a medium-sized central Texas town, and he's a butthead too :rolleyes:
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Yeah, one time I was at the post office mailing a package, and the man in line in front of me started up a conversation. He said he was a DEA agent and he (was competely nuts,) bragging about the recent bust he made over 3 million of cocaine in Miami. He was a nice enough guy, but I thought he was overly exuberant.
It was almost as if he was bragging about it, and i was thinking this guy is nuts. He said he ripped off a cocaine dealer and was headed to go buy his own island. I wished him luck.
Les
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Back in '98, we did some life cycle testing for the INS with their Beretta 96D in .40 S&W. I really didn't care for the 96D much, but I found their (the INS) choice of ammo to be excellent; the Remington Golden Sabre .40 S&W +P+ was very impressive.
During the course of our testing we broke three of the 96Ds. One was minor, the front sight fell off. The other two were serious. One suffered a cracked frame, another had the slide retaining pin fail and the slide, barrel and recoil spring went down range, leaving me holding the now barren frame. All failures occured between 11,000 and 14,000 rounds fired.
My regards,
Widewing
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culero.. I don't know if I am all that but I have lived a while and have allways had and enjoyed firearms. One of the mexicans I went out shooting with had the laser grips on his 4 inch smith L frame. they were of course useless in the bright sunlight and 25-50 yard ranges we were shooting at. I really don't see the point of the things and... they limit grip choice.
I am not a fan of DEA but they are not as bad as BATF... I am not a fan of any federal police except possibly federal marshals and air marshals which should be all the same thing.
I have seen lots of semi autos break including glocks and I have broken revolvers (mostly just wore out).
lazs