Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on March 09, 2005, 08:49:27 PM
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Just got sent a link to the following report just released by freedom house:
NEW REPORT ON SAUDI GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS IN U.S. (http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-01-28.htm)
WASHINGTON, DC, January 28, 2005- Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom released today a new report exposing the dissemination of hate propaganda in America by the government of Saudi Arabia.
The 89-page report, “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques,” is based on a year-long study of over two hundred original documents, all disseminated, published or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and collected from more than a dozen mosques in the United States.
Full Report Available Here (http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/pdfdocs/FINAL%20FINAL%20Saudi.pdf)
Among the key findings of the report:
· Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;
· The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;
· The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the “Immigrant Muslim” bears the words “Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.” of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;
· One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.” Since, under Saudi law, “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;
· Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;
· For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect’s sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, “it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;”
· Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”
· Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;
· Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;
The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”
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Hmmm... Saudis hate America? I can't believe it. After all, everyone knows that the 911 attacks were carried out by Iraqis. The Saudis have always been benevolent friends of the U.S.
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According to that report wouldnt the Saudi government be infidels for selling oil to the infidels?
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Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government.
Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world.
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Originally posted by Staga
Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government.
Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world.
No....nutcases are a real threat to peace all over the world. Matters not if their views are based on religion or something else.....nutcases are nutcases imo.
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Originally posted by Staga
Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government.
Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world.
Staga,
Not to be argumentative, but the highest deathtolls to date have actually been produced by irreligious/anti-theistic governments such as Soviet Russia and Khmer Rouge Cambodia. Historically, its not religion or irreligion in government that really gets the mega-death counter ticking over, but totalitarianism. Unfortunately, as Al Zarqawi made clear in his pre-election press-release and as the report evidences via extensive quotes, Wahabbi Islam (and several of the other schools) is devoted to the idea of the establishment of the Dar-el-Islam worldwide ruled by Caliphate. Thus it is militantly opposed not only to all other religions, but also to any form of Democratic government.
The introduction to the report is particularly informative as it details the "Faustian Bargain" the Saudis made with the Wahabbis in order to stay in power. I.E. we will use a portion of our petro-chemical fortune to bankroll the spread of Wahabbi Islam worldwide (and thereby sponsor universal Jihad). Saddam's administration, on the other hand, didn't so much bankroll the spread of the ideology underlying the Jihad, as the Jihadists themselves both in order to divert attention internally (the west and Israel are your enemies not me) and as a foriegn policy tool. Syria has followed essentially the same policy.
A good basic introduction to the concept of Caliphate, Islamic politics, and the core opposition of Islam to democracy can be had from Mortimer's (now somewhat out of date) "Faith and Power"
Or alternatively we can smash it all flat and simply revert to jingoism.
- SEAGOON
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All right; religious nutcases aren't really a threat.
Err....
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Staga,
Not to be argumentative, but the highest deathtolls to date have actually been produced by irreligious/anti-theistic governments such as Soviet Russia and Khmer Rouge Cambodia. Historically, its not religion or irreligion in government that really gets the mega-death counter ticking over, but totalitarianism.
Unfortunately, as Al Zarqawi made clear in his pre-election press-release and as the report evidences via extensive quotes, Wahabbi Islam (and several of the other schools) is devoted to the idea of the establishment of the Dar-el-Islam worldwide ruled by Caliphate. Thus it is militantly opposed not only to all other religions, but also to any form of Democratic government.
- SEAGOON
You forgot the inquistion, the crusades, Bosnia, Kosovo, Uganda
I however agree with your 2nd statement. Islamic extremists believe that any form of government that does not use Islamic Law as its basis is fundamentally flawed and goes against everything they believe.
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Originally posted by Raider179
You forgot the inquistion, the crusades, Bosnia, Kosovo, Uganda
I however agree with your 2nd statement. Islamic extremists believe that any form of government that does not use Islamic Law as its basis is fundamentally flawed and goes against everything they believe.
Hi Raider,
No, actually I didn't. For the sake of argument, let's talk straight death-tolls, comparing the examples you give to just a few of those produced by Atheistic/Utopian regimes:
Death Tolls (murders, executions, forced famines)
Mao: 48 Million
Stalin: 20 Million
Khmer Rouge: 1.5 Million
Against that we have the Inquisition and the Crusades, and lets go with the most wildly inflated figures on record from the rabidly anti-Christian rationalists manual:
Spanish Inquisition (1400s-1834): 35,534
Crusades (1095-1291): 5 Million
Bosnia, Kosovo, and Uganda were all Ethnic/Tribal wars as was Rwanda and not specifically religious. Computing those numbers would be difficult given that for instance Amin (an Animist) had many Christians put to death, but many of them died because of their tribal affiliation and not specifically because of their Christianity. Also in the Balkans do we count the Muslims killed by Muslims in the Death Tolls, Catholics killed by Russian Orthodox and so on?
Additionally, how do we factor in the fact that both Communism and Islam advocate war as a means of spreading their ideaology while Christianity forbids it? The issue is, as I said, Totalitarianism whether it be Islamic or Communist (Christianity, particularly Protestant Christianity has always tended towards producing democracies - for instance the Swiss Cantons, the Dutch Republic, The British Constitutional Monarchy, etc.) I know there is a natural desire to have Christianity produce similar death tolls in order to prove an "all religions bad - atheism good" argument, but it just isn't born out historically.
Because of the evil of mens hearts monocracy produces hideous death tolls wherever it is instituted by mortal men.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Spanish Inquisition (1400s-1834): 35,534
Where did you get that estimate?
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Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Where did you get that estimate?
M.D. Aletheia's Rationalists Manual (1897). Aletheia's figures are acknowledged by most credible historians to be much too high, but I wanted to use a source who hated Christianity and wouldn't have cut it any breaks in his estimates.
Most people when they conceive of the Inquisition think of mass round-ups and indiscriminate burnings leading to a huge death toll. However the objective of the Inquisition was to produce a forced conversion to Roman Catholicism, and often the threat of torture, imprisonment, or death was sufficient to do so. For instance, the majority of Spanish Muslims brought before the Inquisition "converted" rather than being killed. The majority of the burnt were Protestants and Jews who doggedly refused to recant and were handed over to the state as traitors to be executed.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
M.D. Aletheia's Rationalists Manual (1897). Aletheia's figures are acknowledged by most credible historians to be much too high, but I wanted to use a source who hated Christianity and wouldn't have cut it any breaks in his estimates.
Most people when they conceive of the Inquisition think of mass round-ups and indiscriminate burnings leading to a huge death toll. However the objective of the Inquisition was to produce a forced conversion to Roman Catholicism, and often the threat of torture, imprisonment, or death was sufficient to do so. For instance, the majority of Spanish Muslims brought before the Inquisition "converted" rather than being killed. The majority of the burnt were Protestants and Jews who doggedly refused to recant and were handed over to the state as traitors to be executed.
- SEAGOON
Oh yeah, check out some of this http://www.borndigital.com/racking.htm not sure of the source, but pretty brutal
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Death Tolls (murders, executions, forced famines)
Mao: 48 Million
Stalin: 20 Million
Khmer Rouge: 1.5 Million
Automatic gun, car,train ,telephone
Spanish Inquisition (1400s-1834): 35,534
Crusades (1095-1291): 5 Million
[/B]
Black powder gun/sword , horse , diligence, smoke signal ?
Actually if you forgive technology you can't compare IMO.
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Originally posted by straffo
Actually if you forgive technology you can't compare IMO.
Nah. Stalin had the NKVD shoot 24,000 Polish POW's one at time with Makarov pistols. Pretty much the same rate there.
You can kill as many as you want; all it takes is time. The oldsters has as much or more time as the latest technical killers.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Bosnia, Kosovo, and Uganda were all Ethnic/Tribal wars as was Rwanda and not specifically religious.
They were using religious overtones to push agendas. Most (not all) religious wars are Ethnic by the way.
Bosnia= Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers
Kosovo = Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers.
There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim)
Uganda = Animists, Christians, & Muslims
Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct about 2,000 children a year who are enslaved and/or raped.
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Now anyway my point being you are arguing what is the worst of the two. Ok lets say I agree with you about Communism/Dictatorships killed more people. So that puts religion into what 2nd place on the death leaders board. To me #1 or #2 in this category doesnt matter. Both responsible for plenty of deaths of innocents. That was my point not the numbers.
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number of wars resulting from religious conflicts broke out as well as the Catholic governments tried to stop the spread of Protestantism in the country. Such attempts led to the civil war in France from 1562 to 1598 and a rebellion in the Netherlands between 1565 and 1648. Religion was a major issue in the fighting between Spain and England from 1585 to 1604. It was also a cause of the Thirty Years' War 1618 to 1648, which centered in Germany, that eventually involved all of the great nations of Europe halving its population.
The estimate of the death toll during the Inquisitions ranged worldwide from 600,000 to as high in the millions covering a span of almost six centuries.
Victor Hugo estimated the number of the victims of the Inquisition at five million, it is said, and certainly the number was much greater than that if we take into account, as we should, the wives and husbands, the parents and children, the brothers and sisters, and other relatives of those tortured and slaughtered by the priestly institution. To these millions should properly be added the others killed in the wars precipitated in the attempt to fasten the Inquisition upon the people of various countries, as the Netherlands and Germany.
There were also more Inquistions than just the spanish one. but I digress.
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Raider,
We could go round on this one till the cows come home.
Let's try to back up. Stagas original statement was a blanket indictment:
"Another reason why religion should be kept away from politic and government."
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"Religious nutcases are a real threat to the peace all over the world."
My response was intended to make several points. 1) The alternative, an explicitly atheistic or anti-religious government doesn't exactly produce the desired Utopia. We've seen that in China, France, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, etc. In fact the atheists and nihilists are still ahead in the realm of megadeaths area no matter how you spin the numbers. Also, as unwilling as you are to admit that atheism in government inevitably produces megadeaths, I am equally unwilling to admit that Roman Catholic Government massacres of Protestants are an indication that Christianity produces massacres. Those governments who massacre their citizens are acting contrary to foundational principles of the Christian faith not in accordance with it (Romans 13 makes that clear) the same cannot be said of Communism or Wahabbism.
2) Not all religious nutcases are a threat to peace, for instance the Amish are religious nutcases are they a threat to peace? I'm a religious nutcase for that matter, and yet I subscribe to a confession that explicitly says: "It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever: and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance." Westminster Confession of Faith 23.3
Which Ideaologies (atheistic or religious) truly are a threat therefore to peace worldwide? TOTALITARIAN ONES. Whethere they are Stalinists or Wahabbi Muslims. Their commitment to universally establish their one ideaology via pitiless violence and repression worldwide is what makes them truly dangerous.
- SEAGOON
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Seagoon, I agree with you on a certain level, but however I do not agree that christianity used to preach peace either. Presently it might have seen the light and is trying to correct for past mistakes but it hasn't always been that way. Many people have been killed in god's name, and that is with all religions not just christianity. I also feel organized religion just makes it easier for one man to control another and feel justified about it. I will agree that there are nutcases everywhere but religion makes it easier for them to exploit their fellow man.
As for keeping religion away from politics it is to keep the exact situation from occuring that you describe. Violence and a threat to world peace. After all didn't people come to America so they could worship as they pleased? Not so they could choose 1 religion over another. That is why we NEED seperation of church and govenment.