Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Habu on March 10, 2005, 08:04:04 AM
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CATS WITH GUNS DO
Cat shoots man (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=7&u=/ap/20050310/ap_on_fe_st/cat_shoots_owner)
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A loaded gun just laying there.
:rolleyes:
The man should be lucky to be alive
He deserves what he get.
He needs some weapons safety training.
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I call BS.. modern guns don't go off from falling off a counter.
The guy is hiding something.
Even if the gun was loaded with one in the chamber and cocked...it wouldn't go off unless the sear broke or, if it had an inertia firing pin, the drop was high enough and impact hard enough that the inertia firing pin was driven into the primer with sufficient force to set it off..
Guns entering the states have to be "drop tested" for importation. I believe it is an 8' drop onto concrete muzzle down.
lazs
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lazs2 speaketh trutheth.
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There was a story a couple of weeks ago about a guy who "accendentially" shot himself and his friend. I think 3 shots were fired but according to his story the gun went off accendentially each time. :lol
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Even Glocks that go off in the hands of trained "professionals" during gun-saftey classes? They won't fire if dropped?
So, how exactly is this drop test done? Chamber a round and drop it? lol. Gun saftey seems to be an oxymoron in the US.
;)
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Curv... you'd prefer they didn't drop test? Or just assume they don't know how to do one safely?
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curval... the glocks that are shooting people are doing so because the operate properly.
I know you don't know much about guns but... When you pull the trigger and there is a chambered round.... the gun is supposed to go BANG. when the trigger is not depressed and the gun is merely dropped... it is not supposed to go bang.
If the glock owners keep their fingers from depressing the trigger the gun won't go off.
simple enough?
lazs
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And there's not even a slightest chance that the gun might fall on his elk trophy, get hung by its trigger and fire?
Drop tests don't mean a thing in this case. Triggers can get caught to obstacles while the gun falls and the mechanisms can wear out or have malfunctions.
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yes... it is possible that a cat would work an over 2 lb low profile hunk of metal off a counter and that it would fall onto the antlers of an elk trophy that was mounted on the floor and the antler would then enter the trigger guard at such an angle that it allowed the antler to depress the trigger and fire the weapon.
this is certainly possible but... My guess is that it was fate... If all that happened the guy was due to have a meteorite put a hole in his gut anyway.
lazs
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(http://www.moberlyriveroutfitters.com/2003pics/PaulElkMount03b.JPG)
It usually takes about a 10 foot ceiling to display an elk mount.
Are you saying a gun can fall off the ceiling and get caught on a horn that's too big to fit in a trigger guard?
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Originally posted by Toad
Curv... you'd prefer they didn't drop test? Or just assume they don't know how to do one safely?
Matters not to me at all, but I was just curious to know how it was actually done. If I had ordered a nice new gun and it was all scratched up as a result of some knob dropping it to see if the thing would go off, I might be "miffed".
If the gun was defective and it DID actually go off..what then?
What is the controlled environment in which they do the test? Bullets tend to ricochet and there is no guarentee that dropping it at one angle will send a round out at that same angle.
Just curious, that all.
You have to admit though that all of the recent postings about gun saftey etc. does tend to give those of us who don't agree with the US style "guns for all" attitude quite a bit of "ammunition". lol
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Anything is possible Toad. I've seen hunting rifles hanging from the damn horns.
And are you seriously saying now that the scenario I presented was the only possible thing the trigger could get caught to?
I smell fish.
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curval... the don't test every gun you maroon...
Now I am gonna let you in on another little insider secret... the crash testing they do on cars..... they don't crash every one that they build before they sell it!
worse... not every helmet sold has previously had a 2 lb steel ball dropped on it from 60 feet.
lazs
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Having a packaging engineering degree (YES its is BS degree for MSU MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY) Drop testing, is not an exact science. you have to drop the thing on every possible angle to see how the object reacts! a drop test muzzle down from what im understanding is when it hits the floor the muzzle (pointing strait down verticall) is the only drop test here? Thats not good for real life applications. How often does a gun fall that way? Where it the center of gravity on the gun? what is the heaviest end of a gun?
Ya ima college grad and still cant spell or type so what!
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the drop test is to test the inertia of the firing pin. No modern gun will fire from a blow to another part of the weapon other than the trigger..
Most firearms do not have a direct relationship between the hammer and the firing pin unless the trigger is depressed. Most have some sort of firing pin that can be affected by inertia (gun stops suddenly but firing pin continues travel) That is what the drop test is all about. Other tests are don on hammer sear engagement and safeties (if applicable).
lazs
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"Guns entering the states have to be "drop tested" for importation. I believe it is an 8' drop onto concrete muzzle down. "
This is what you said Lazs....am I suposed to read your mind and equate it to crash testing cars?
Ya big maroon.
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once more slowly... cars imported into the U.S. have to be crash tested... they do it by loading em up with a crash test dummy and running it into a wall. I know the concept is hard for you but.... they only do it with a representative sample of the cars.... and the same applies to the drop test for guns.
lazs
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No need to repeat yourself. It seems however that I must:
"am I supposed to read your mind and equate it to crash testing cars? "
In other words...I get it lazs, but you were very unclear in your fist post. Capish?
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Originally posted by lazs2
Now I am gonna let you in on another little insider secret... the crash testing they do on cars..... they don't crash every one that they build before they sell it!
lazs
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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The Glock Firing Pin (or Striker, as they call it) is not under any pressure until the shooter begins to pull the trigger. There's also a trigger safety that has to be pulled back into the main trigger before firing. Dropping a Glock is not going to cause it to fire because nothing is going to move toward the primer.
Yes, yes.... I guess if you clamped one in a vice and slammed it with a Sledgehammer it just 'might' go off if a random piece of the disintegrating slide struck the primer hard enough. (Please, don't try that at home)
Glock Safety (http://www.glock.com/_safe_action_.htm)
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So there can never be flaws in invidual guns or freak incidents where a gun could discharge on it's own due to impact.
Good to know... why do I need to have a warranty on anything, if everything is built so well that there can be no flaws, wearing or anything, which could cause malfunction without the users direct fault (ie. hitting the equiptment with a hammer or feeding it with wrong voltage).
One US soldier in Iraq died when he fell from ladders and his M4 carbine discharged.
He wasn't carrying it from the grip.
I guess he simply fell from the ladders, then disregarding the pain he reached for the trigger and quickly pulled from it in front of his buddies. :rolleyes:
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Bah Fishu you just gave reason for the anti-american whines to begin.
Say bye bye to this one.
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You guys are all missing the freaking point. We need to BAN CATS damnit!!!!
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If you outlaw cats, only outlaws will have cats.
-SW
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Originally posted by lazs2
I call BS.. modern guns don't go off from falling off a counter.
lazs
LAZ is right. Wife probably shot him because she found out he was cheating on her or something along that line.
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Why drop proof ? would u trust on it.
I just think when u don't use a weapon just take care its unloaded.
And than always treat its loaded.
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You know even though it sometimes seems you are talking to a room full of idiots Laz I actually feel I learned something from this thread.
I did not realize the reason the drop test was just one geometry.
I have have a question. If the hammer was back and cocked. Could a drop cause it to release? Can you **** a hammer in the glock?
I have heard of guys who modify their triggers to have almost no pressure (hair trigger) by fileing some parts inside the mechanism. Is that possible in this case?
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Originally posted by lazs2
Now I am gonna let you in on another little insider secret... the crash testing they do on cars..... they don't crash every one that they build before they sell it!
:lol
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Habu,
The glock does not have a hammer. It uses a striker that is kept in a "half ****" until the trigger is pulled. The trigger engages the striker (firing pin) and pulls it back then releases it when it gets to full extension. As such the pin is blocked by the triger stirrup and a safety block until it's pulled.
The drop test should not be much of a factor as the pin by itseslf shouldn't have enough speed at it's low mass to fire the shell. It required the spring tension at full extension to do that.
It is possible to reduce the trigger pull on a Glock by using a weaker trigger return spring and leave the striker spring alone to guarantee positive firing. If you reduce the firing pin spring then you risk misfires as the primer won't be struck with enough force to insure the round goes off.
Does this help you?
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ROFL this cat thread!
I remember at least one of Lazs's semi automatic handguns had a spring loaded safety lever which rose from the back of the handgrip, preventing the gun from being fired. This lever had to be pressed in for firing to be possible, ie. the gun had to be held in the hand with palm pressure depressing the safety lever. <--(hope my explanation, in lay terms, was adequate!)
I love cats, and I'm thinking of getting another one in a couple of months...
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When I used to carry my glock 27 for business reasons I had an occasion to have it drop out of the concealed carry fanny pack I kept it in. It had one in the spout. It dropped from four feet up onto concret. With a full mag the 27 falls butt down. It did not go off. But I had to replace the factory rear sight.
I tought the Austrian army was doing a rappeling demo from helecopters back when Glock was first trying to get the rest of the world interested and one soldier's glock unholstered and dropped 100 feet without misshap, and function flawlessly in a shooting demo later.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Habu,
Does this help you?
Yes I think I get the picture on how it works. I agree it would be very unlikely to fire from a drop with that sort of setup.
I bet the guy was doing something stupid at the time an was too embarassed to admit it or someone else shot him and he is covering for it.
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Ok.. before this gets too silly... curval... I am sorry.. I ASSUMED that you understood that all destructive testing of ANY product was byu it's very nature (destructive) not done on every single item.
Now... along the same vein... it is possible that the metal in the spindle of your car will have a flaw that allows the front wheel to fall off when you reach 90 mph.
It is also possible that that you could take a loaded modern firearm and throw it out on the freeway at said 90mph and have ten cars run over it and.... it is possible... that would cause it to go off... maybe some ones elk trophy was on the freeway or something but...
You will no doubt have a much higher chance of getting hit by lightning or winning the super lotto.
lazs
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not trying to piss any one off just thinking about what made the gun go off as it did.
A. We know it was cocked and loaded.
B. cat knocks ot off counter top.
C. gun fired and bullet hits owner of both cat and gun.
1. obviously if the gun landed flat on its side it wouldnt go off.
2. if it fell muzzle down it woouldnt go off nore hit ower of gun (hole in the floor)
3. if gun fell butt first slanted back(ointing at dumb owner) so it landed on the hammer is the enough wieght of the gun to make the hammer hit the firing pin?
4. Or when the gun dropped did it have enough inertia to make the firing pin move back against the spring and the spring then pushes the firing pin hard enought to make the gun fire?
5. Or is the real cause as habu said?
im sure its answer 5
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or.... he shot himself by accident or his wife/lover whatever did and they are hiding the reason behind the silly cat story.
It reminds me of the arkansas police report of the guy who comitted suicide by cutting his head off with an ax.
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
You have to admit though that all of the recent postings about gun saftey etc. does tend to give those of us who don't agree with the US style "guns for all" attitude quite a bit of "ammunition". lol
I've taken hunter safety courses, handled guns for over thirty years, and made *bang, bang* in the Marines but I never heard leaving a loaded gun on a table to be part of gun safety.
Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot, and never leave a loaded hangun on the table unless you want your cat to knock it over and shoot you in the gut.
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yup gotta call BS on this also
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we are all over looking something here, perhaps the cat was mad at him (you know how cats are) and the cat pulled the trigger and the recoil knocked the gun to the floor.
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Once again Rube Goldberg kills from beyone the grave
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Originally posted by lazs2
I call BS.. modern guns don't go off from falling off a counter.
The guy is hiding something.
Even if the gun was loaded with one in the chamber and cocked...it wouldn't go off unless the sear broke or, if it had an inertia firing pin, the drop was high enough and impact hard enough that the inertia firing pin was driven into the primer with sufficient force to set it off..
Guns entering the states have to be "drop tested" for importation. I believe it is an 8' drop onto concrete muzzle down.
lazs
While normally this would be a fairly accurate statement, the article really didn't give much info. I didn't see the make, model, or age of the gun. The older models didn't have striker plates to prevent accidental discharge from dropping. Even without it though, the likelihood is slim.
And Massachusetts drop law is from 1 meter onto a concrete slab, I believe.
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sounds like BS.
likely he went to the hospital after taking a round during a robbery or drug deal gone bad (why do they never publicize the drug deals that go smoothly? just more media bias I suppose. :p )
probably just the best excuse he could come up with considering the distraction of taking a round in the back.-
"umm, ya, the cat shot me. sure. thats the ticket."
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I dunno.. cats are sneaky. I'll bet a parrot would shoot ya if ya left a loaded gun within its reach too.
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I said it before and I'll say it again. WE NEED TO BAN CATS!!!!!!!! Call your congressrat now!!!
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Originally posted by beet1e
ROFL this cat thread!
I remember at least one of Lazs's semi automatic handguns had a spring loaded safety lever which rose from the back of the handgrip, preventing the gun from being fired. This lever had to be pressed in for firing to be possible, ie. the gun had to be held in the hand with palm pressure depressing the safety lever. <--(hope my explanation, in lay terms, was adequate!)
I love cats, and I'm thinking of getting another one in a couple of months...
Beet1e, you are referring to the "Palm Safety" on the back of Lazs's Kimber .45, and you are correct.
"Joseph Stanton, 29, was accidentally shot when a loaded 9 mm handgun was knocked off a kitchen counter by one of his cats.
As the firearm struck the floor, it discharged one round, which struck Stanton in the lower abdomen, exiting through his back." This is from the Iron Mountain Daily News.
I am with lazs on this one, there has to be more to this. The ONLY thing I could think of is some cheap $200 Heritage, but even THAT is a stretch.
Curval, the reason that idiot shot himself in the foot is because A.) he was too ignorant to realize the weight of a loaded magazine in a Glock 19, B) the UNMISTAKEABLE sound of a round chambering, C) he put his finger in the trigger guard.
Karaya
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Ok... I leave guns on the counter or nightstand loaded... hammer down on a loaded chamber.. I have two cats ( a legacy from my daughter living with me and now my grand daughter).
The cats are evil. they try to trip me at the top of the stairs in the dark.. they shut the door half way so that I will run into the edge in the dark.... they have tried to pick up the gun to shoot me but it is too heavy.
A friend of mine got shot in the head (glancing blow from a 38) in a " barter transaction" way back when. Blood everywhere and lots of excitement as we extricated ourselves from the bad barter situation.
At the hospital they instantly recognized the wound as a gunshot wound and so... the story was that he was looking at the rifling to determine if it was left or right and he cocked the gun to see counter or counterclockwise rotation and his finger slipped blah blah blah.... weak... but better than the cat idea I think..
Yep beet... it was a grip safety... the friggin 1911 is a behive of safeties. Has an inertia firing pin too
Old guns are different... old single actions for instance rest the hammer nose rightr on a live round if you load six... very dangerous... all the oldtimers knew it but were still tempted to carry six...
I like safeties that are seamless and require no thought to use... automatic ones.
lazs
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What's an inertia firing pin?
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basicly... the firing pin is too short to reach the pimer of the loaded cartrige when the hammer is down on it. the only way that it can fire is if the hammer hits it so hard that it is propelled past flush with the frame.. A drop (sudden stop of the gun) will do the same thing.... gun stops, firing pin contiues on to strike primer... strike hard enough and gun goes bang. some, like late Kimbers even go further in that there is a firing pin block that makes the inertia firing pin imobile until the trigger is depressed and the block is lowered.
Soo.. late 1911's.... grip safety.... inertia firing pin... firing pin block... and.. manual safety lever.
lazs
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Originally posted by beet1e
What's an inertia firing pin?
The firing pin is the same length or slightly shorter than the breech block. It travels forward under it's own energy after it's struck by the hammer, rather than the hammer actually pushing it forward into the primer.
Thus, when the hammer is decocked, the pin doesn't rest on the primer.
EDIT: What laz said.
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"Curval, the reason that idiot shot himself in the foot is because A.) he was too ignorant to realize the weight of a loaded magazine in a Glock 19, B) the UNMISTAKEABLE sound of a round chambering, C) he put his finger in the trigger guard."
..and this is the type of person teaching a room full of people gun saftey? And you wonder why I have reservations about guns being legal here?
Did you notice the man getting up to leave who had a baby in his arms? Can't say I blame him.
I'm curious as to where the bullet actually ended up? Classroom/lecture halls like that usually have very smooth hard floor surfaces...I think there were some lucky people in that room given that it hit him in the foot...had it hit the ground only it could easily have ricoched (sp?) into the attendees. Even that idiot recognised that fact by immediately asking if everyone was okay.
Do you think the bullet was in his foot still?
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Did you notice the man getting up to leave who had a baby in his arms? Can't say I blame him.
Not to mention that they all probably suffered immediate hearing damage from a gunshot inside a closed room. Especially the infant.