Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Makarov9 on March 11, 2005, 01:10:41 PM
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http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21760 (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21760)
For owners of Windows XP they can get a free copy of Win64 when it comes out. I'm amazed MS is doing this.
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Originally posted by Makarov9
I'm amazed MS is doing this.
So am I.
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There will be a catch somewhere, nothing is free
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Originally posted by Sixpence
There will be a catch somewhere, nothing is free
Maybe they have done some kind of deal with the cpu makers to get more people to upgrade to 64bit processing... dunno, just tossing out my thoughts.
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Hey guys it's called beta testing.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hey guys it's called beta testing.
All windows operating systems are betas. ;)
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Can a 32-bit processor run a 64-bit operating system?
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Don't I know it.
To be serious I've been fairly happy with Windows2000 and later with XP.
When you turn all the unnecessary things from XP, it's like w2k with a couple extras added. Meaning it's quite nice.
I still get nausea when I have to use a standard XP installation on my clients.
I don't think so Mickey. There wouldn't be any point to do so. Reversely the 64-bit cpu's benefit a lot from it potentially, especially in memory consuming tasks such as rendering video.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Don't I know it.
To be serious I've been fairly happy with Windows2000 and later with XP.
When you turn all the unnecessary things from XP, it's like w2k with a couple extras added. Meaning it's quite nice.
I still get nausea when I have to use a standard XP installation on my clients.
I don't think so Mickey. There wouldn't be any point to do so. Reversely the 64-bit cpu's benefit a lot from it potentially, especially in memory consuming tasks such as rendering video.
Yeah, the last 2 have been alot better than the previous, but they are still released too soon and with to many bugs imo. Maybe Longhorn will be even better from day one.
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Heh I still remember how I laughed at the first guy online who had W2k and he said he liked it.
To my amazement I liked it too. Had linux on my box for a while also. I've been thinking to get a 64-bit kernel now that both my laptop and gaming box are 64-bits.
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My current operating system is named after a cat and I like it. :)
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Could be related to the massive amount of pirate cd keys out there. They're supposed to be changing up their entire system soon.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Maybe Longhorn will be even better from day one.
From what I have heard Longhorn will operate a bit like Steam does for Half-Life 2.
When your computer is on it is connected to a Windows site in the background and keeps tabs on what you are doing.
Of course this could be paranoia but I also never thought that a game wouldn't work off-line ala Steam.
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Last time they made 'failsafe' copyprotections to windows they initiated a discount sale in the Korean pirate market.
Normal price for pirated cd-rom was $15, XP sold for $10.
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I've heard you'll have to de-activate your active 32bit version to get the new 64bit version. The downside being that compatibility and driver support is not anywhere near where the average consumer would need it.
I tried the 64bit beta and decided to stick with the 32bit version for now. I'll probably upgrade to the 64bit version with this offer, but I know this will come at the very real cost of not being able to find drivers for some of my hardware.
MiniD
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It's free because only someone a brick shy a load would pay for it. It really does not offer any advantages as there are no 64 bit applications out there yet AND it is less stable than the current release of XP.
Most of the drivers are still 32 bit. The few 64bit drivers out there are not the most stable in the world.
I am not looking forward to them releasing this. The flood of problems I will get called/emailed about will be immense.
Of course it will get better. In about 3 years it will be as solid as XP is now.
Loghorn? OY! Based on the .NET architecture, it requires you to have an Internet connection so it can get files/functions you need to run. The goal is to no longer supply updates for the operating system. Intead, MS will change the base code, and when you boot, it will grab the code directly from them. It will make the release OS pretty small, but the initial start up will be painful.
Dun't look for this in the initial release, but it is where they are going. Hackers paradise for sure.
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Originally posted by Drunky
Of course this could be paranoia but I also never thought that a game wouldn't work off-line ala Steam.
You can play Steam HL2 offline, just staryt it it in offline mode...
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Grun I thought it has to be activated online at first.
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Holy crap Skuzzy :eek:
Longhorn sounds like junk.
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Junk? It gives MS what they have wanted since they first shipped an operating system. Absolute control over your computer. Why?
Well, no one knows how to run a computer better than the company that builds and delivers the operating system, right?
This is why they developed the .NET architecture and why they are forcing everyone to it.
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Heh.. let's see how many SCOvilles of burn they'll have when people switch to linux64. ;)
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Junk? It gives MS what they have wanted since they first shipped an operating system. Absolute control over your computer. Why?
Well, no one knows how to run a computer better than the company that builds and delivers the operating system, right?
This is why they developed the .NET architecture and why they are forcing everyone to it.
Yes, or junk for short :D
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Not enough to make MS even break a sweat Siaf. Corporate USA will suck this thing up like a junkie getting a coke fix for the first time in a month.
Yes, corporate US is full of numpties.
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<<
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Linux
will never be more then a toy for computer geeks.
Well unless they find a way to make it so joe blow 65 year old retiree can use it.
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98 and ME are the worst.
I HATE THEM.
having to suppor these old crappy O/Ss sucks, I cant wait for the next rev of our main product, cause we drop support for 98 and ME.
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I look forward to that as well GTo. And it is coming. The next major update to DirectX will no longer work on 98 or ME.
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That's bull dinky and I dont like it one bit. I dont like anything or anyone keeping tabs on what programs I run or whatever I do on my PC. What is the point? Why is this information valuable? Do they sell statistics? Sell information? Marketing? Hell, you can have ALL of my information; I won't buy your product.
"To enhance your PC computing experience!!!"
... is also bull dinky. They're improving any experience if the EXPERIENCE ITSELF IS MERELY GATHERING INFO.
I have yet to see any good come of this. It'll only get worse.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I look forward to that as well GTo. And it is coming. The next major update to DirectX will no longer work on 98 or ME.
Great! Another program that wont work. Oh well, keep saving my pennies.
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skuzzy, do you run a late night call in radio show?
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No, why?
Oct, the base reason behind what MS is doing is to keep users from porking up the OS (MS is best at doing that :D). Basically, you will not be able to make changes without them knowing about it, and if they do not like it, they can undo the changes.
On the upside, it also prevents people from making a mess of the operating system.
But the downsides are enormous.
Eventually, you will not have any choice in the matter. MS will stop supporting all the other OS's they have shipped and applications written for Longhorn will not run on any other MS OS.
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Blue
If you are still on 98 or Me do yourself a favoer ang get XP, if you PC can handle it.
XP made even my crappy work HP celeron system stable. I reboot one time a week if that.
When I had ME on it I had to reboot 3 times a day.
Having ME or 98 on a modern computer is like buying a new vette and then yanking out the fuel injection and putting on a carb.
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Im saving my pennies GtoRA2. Getting close to having enough for a new cpu completly.
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Not really Gto.
It's more like replacing the engine of the Corvette with one from a Pinto.
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Well it's about time I learn linux I suppose.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grun I thought it has to be activated online at first.
Well you do have to register a stteam account, buy the game then download it - all of that requires an internet connection.
But after that I have played Steam HL2 even if my cable connection was down.
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I wonder how this MS controlling your PC O/S from there HQ is going to effect Tech support peeps like us Skuzzy?
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Oct,
Do you have more then two pocket protectors?
if not get atleast one more and some horn rim glasses held together with tape before you buy linux.
Dont forget the nifty linuxgruven sticker for you car.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I wonder how this MS controlling your PC O/S from there HQ is going to effect Tech support peeps like us Skuzzy?
I really do not want to think about it right now.
Linux ain't hard. I'll share the wheel barrow full of pocket protectors I have with ya Oct. :)
The problem with Linus is the lack of common applications and the inconsistent way it is implemented from distro to distro. That alone will keep it from being mainstream.
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You don't have the linuxgruvin sticker though right Skuzzy?
So way back in when I was at umax, the scanner company(6 or 7 years ago). They had a saturday shift that was overtime, and supervisors had to pull one shift a month, so on mine just happend to be on the same day as the linus club we let use the lunch room.
No joke it was like a casting call for revenge of the nerds. I know all are not like that but it was funny as hell.
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Nope, no sticker. Just a UNIX geek from way back. Waaaay back. :)
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Next Dx won't support 98SE? Ouch.
I only use my PC now for AH. I still have Win98SE and have never had a virus, a worm or a trojan for what, 6 years?
I bought a (legitimate, retail) copy of XP last year on a trip to the US, since English version is not available in Japan. It won't install. The final error code near the end of installation indicates a bad CD, according to MS site.
MS Japan won't replace it because they only 'support' Japanese version, MS Redmond won't replace it because I'm in Japan. What a load of doggie doo doo. It's just thievery. I wonder if MS employees hold up 7-11's at night for fun?
If there were ever a group or company that needs to have its wings clipped, it is MS, in my book.
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Now that you legally own a copy Rolex you could download it in order to get it working.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Linux
will never be more then a toy for computer geeks.
Well unless they find a way to make it so joe blow 65 year old retiree can use it.
They have. My girlfriend's 98 machine was crawling to a stop. I put Xandros on it.
She's been using it for almost two years now. She doesn't know, or care, if it is Linux, Windows, or whatever. She doesn't even know what an operating system is. She reads email, does word processing, downloads her digital camera, shops online. It has worked flawlessly since I installed it.
If it wasn't for AH I wouldn't have Windows at all.
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Ok, I'll admit it, I doggedly stuck to Windows 98SE till 2004 because I disliked the idea of the "Redmond Check" and because I figured that XP wouldn't be any more stable (I was crashing at least once a day). I was very wrong. It's not as stable as the Apache boxes I used to administrate, but its definitely good enough. Can't believe I endured constant crashing for as long as I did. "We fear change"
- SEAGOON
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Wait til they find out win 64 stands for windows 1964.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
My current operating system is named after a cat and I like it. :)
Its ok for lightweight use, but put it in a corporate environment and you soon find its full of holes.
Oh, and its the nightmare of network admins, you kitty meowws networks to death.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I look forward to that as well GTo. And it is coming. The next major update to DirectX will no longer work on 98 or ME.
OH NOOOOOOOO !!!!
I lov my precious 98se super tweeked version . (3 yrs on my old gammer no formats or defrags , runs like a Rolls griffin)
I hear longhorn is supposed to be open to your Bios settings also ... Just the perfect place for hackers to come play .. (looks like suicide for your pc to me)
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Originally posted by Makarov9
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21760 (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21760)
For owners of Windows XP they can get a free copy of Win64 when it comes out. I'm amazed MS is doing this.
I can beat three word answer to the punch with "retain market share"
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Don't sweat it Rosco, you still have at least a year before it happens.
Oh, and it also will not work on Windows 2000 either. You'll be able to update XP so it can run (install all the .NET stuff).
It will be instersting to see what happens to OpenGL, as it is going to need a major overhaul when Longhorn hits. The jury is still out on this.
Of course, MS could change thier minds about all of this. Longhorn has been revamped at least twice so far. The first iteration would not run on most computers due to the overhead for the desktop (required at least an ATI 9800Pro or faster video card just for the desktop), the second iteration is better, but it still is not final.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Its ok for lightweight use, but put it in a corporate environment and you soon find its full of holes.
Oh, and its the nightmare of network admins, you kitty meowws networks to death.
Don't badmouth mr *****cat panther please, I won't tolerate it :o
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There are several GS, just not any other real gaming platforms.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Junk? It gives MS what they have wanted since they first shipped an operating system. Absolute control over your computer. Why?
Well, no one knows how to run a computer better than the company that builds and delivers the operating system, right?
This is why they developed the .NET architecture and why they are forcing everyone to it.
Sounds like we need AH2 to run in linux soon.
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Originally posted by SunKing
Sounds like we need AH2 to run in linux soon.
I would like that too. I bet the AH team wont like that extra work tho.
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Wine can handle several windows apps already. I wouldn't be surprised if AH would run on it.
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Maybe Siaf.
Why don't you try it for us? :)
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Hmm.. I might.. :o
I've been tempted to reinstall linux.
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Skuzzy, I have a P4 upstairs and an Athlon 64 3300+ downstairs. Both XP Home.
The CompUSA computer gurus contend the Athlon 64 is a better bet than another Intel P4 32-bit mainly because 64-bit is coming soon. They also contend Athlon is better chip now than Intel. That sound right to you?
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Anything is better than the Prescott P4's from Intel. A Northwood on the other hand is a different story. I have not seen any impressive differences in the performance between a well tuned Northwood and an AMD 64.
I am still waiting for a decent chipset for the AMD 64. Once that happens, then I will probably invest in it. Right now, there are just too many issues with the chipsets.
Oh, and AMD's refresh 64 (supports SSE3) is having problems with the Nforce chipsets. Some incompatibility issue.
Windows 64 does not impress me at all. Buggy as heck and there really is not much in the way of performance gains. In fact, many things are being reported as running slower. Most people attribute this to the Beta versionof Windows, but I am not so sure that is the reason.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Wine can handle several windows apps already. I wouldn't be surprised if AH would run on it.
Here's something:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98192
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I still have BRAND new copies of OS/2 Warp Connect and OS/2 Warp Server. The server copy is still in the shrink wrap.
Wishfull thinking on my part ... hehe.
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I have a dual Nocona 3.4 GHz system. It doesn't seem to miss a beat. There might be faster systems out there, but not much faster.
I've always checked out new OSs... especially ones geared towards server aplications.
I did OS2 Warp when I ran a 3 line BBS. 3 modems on that OS required a 3rd party communications driver. Man that OS was crap.
I did NT4 from beta all the way through until NT5 beta was released. That was run on my Dual P2 Xeon 400 system. I even had a website called "www.nt40games.com" that listed game compatibility. I was exceeding my 50 meg download limit each day with no images. I even got an MS VP to stop by on a regular basis to respond to questions in the forums. Another Microsoft engineer made a patch for WB 1.11r2 that allowed the graphics to actually load on a beta NT4 machine. I think that one pissed HT off just a bit (He also found a DirectDraw bug in the game). Oooo... and the joystick.dll updated driver in NT4sp3 or something like that was because of me too. I actually pioneered gaming on NT machines to the point that I was in a eurotrash PC-Gamer magazine. I'm so cool.
I played with LINUX on the other dual xeon system for a couple of years. I liked the support structure, but never liked that the instructions for most things were pretty unreadable for the entry level user. I'd always have to surf for hours trying to find a step by step method.
I settled on Win2k a few years back and just left it for 4 years. That was by far the most stable OS I'd ever ran.
With the new Noconas, I've gone to XP-pro (which I've been running on my personal computer). I tried the 64bit beta, but couldn't host the FDB bbs because of issues with the Access database drivers so I had to remove it. I also had problems finding the right drivers for virtually everything I was doing. I'm hoping alot of that gets fixed soon.
Oh well... unless the people with the hardware are willing to experiment, things don't advance. The one constant I've seen over the last 10 years is that developers are incapable of identifying problems, needs and overall compatibility on their own. The work and pains of the adventurous souls paved the way for the increadible things you take for granted today.
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There is not a Windows OS that is as stable as a good UNIX distro. Sorry, but that will never happen. UNIX has way to many years of development under its belt and it continues and will continue.
As far as in the MS family of OS"s, I agree W2K is the most stable for many things server related.
You and I have different perspectives on things related to computer advancement Mini, and we have discussed them ad nauseum, so I will not go there.
As far as ease of use goes, it all depends on your experience and knowledge. I find MS OS's to be a pain in the butt to setup and configure for many things.
A good UNIX is easy to setup and configure for me. My little box at home took me about two hours to install and setup. It's running all the router chores, firewall, SMTP, POP3, Apache, PHP, MySQL, bulletin board and has been up for almost two years now.
I challenge the most knowledgable Windows expert to get all the above up and running from in that time, including the OS installation. Even if you do, it will need a periodic rebooting.
Oh, and my little server is a 600Mhz P3, with 128MB of ram.
I am all for advancements, but the path we are headed down is a dangerous one as far as I am concerned. I see the day when we turn on our computer and it tells us we have used up our allotted time and it will be busy being used by someone else, so go mow the yard. MS would poop themselves if they could make it happen sooner than later.
Ignorance will allow the above to happen. Most people, even many so-called 'experts', have no idea what is going on the background of the computers running an MS OS. But when you address that point to them, they gladly smile and retort, "That is what makes it so nice to work with, I do not have to know about that stuff."
Scary.
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I put a CD in the drive and booted for a Win2k Adv Server installation. I came back 1 hour later and it was done. I know you didn't do that skuzzy. The only time that system was turned off was for power outages. It ran 24x7 for 4 years. That's pretty damn stable. As for the installation of any of the bbs software and so forth... it's simply a matter of experience. I did a 2 hour up and running install of an OS, website and BBS (actually, 90 minutes) with WinXP-Pro. The computer has been running solid since I did it two weeks ago. I have no complaints.
Unix is a great OS. And it is stable. But we're discussing the difference between a PC that is actually used and a server. The two are completely different. You build servers that do specific functions. Most want computers that do anything asked of them. That is one thing you cannot brag on either LINUX or UNIX about. Both OS's have their strong points... diversity is not amongst them.
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I agree with the sentiment, but most users have no clue what to ask a computer to do. Email and WEB browsing? Any OS can handle that these days. The choice of an OS for that particular scenario is up to the user's experience level.
But, I also agree UNIX (any variant) is not for the casual user. It requires some knowledge to setup properly and even more knowledge to use it.
I also find it quite entertaining when people say, "Windows is intutitive and UNIX is not". There is nothing 'intuitive' about using a computer.
And if Windows was so easy to use and configure, I would not get over 100 emails a day asking for configuration help. Many of the issues in configuring Windows can be quite difficult.
In this are UNIC simply blows Windows away. It is actually too easy to get at all the configuration options. Makes it a dangerous OS for the novice.
Side by side, the basic design philosophy between UNIX and Windows could not be farther apart. MS/Windows does its best to hide everything from you related to the OS needs. UNIX does everything it can to expose you to all of the underlying nuts and bolts (this scares the poop out of people for some reason).
My personal opinion as it would apply to most people is UNIX is better for servers, Windows is better for applications.
For me, I am fortunate enough to have the knowledge to use the right OS for the job and be able to tell which is the right OS for the job.
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Skuzzy,
As for "variants of unix" being ready for the casual user, I was pleasantly suprised by the latest public (free) release of Xandros. I decided to set up an install of it as a normal user would, with the only concession made as a geek being that in advance I had selected hardware components known to work in most linux distros.
It worked like a friggen champ, easier than my first win98 install. CDs went in, an hour later I was booted to an xandros x-windows desktop that looked an awful lot like winxp and behaved very similiarly. Everything worked, from seeing my workgroup shares to printing on my shared HP deskjet 952C on another computer. The desktop was responsive and predictable. Clicking on the intarweb icons got me a web browser, clicking on the little hard drive or folder icon got me views equivalent to "my computer" and "my documents", etc.
I admit I cheated and used a custom partitioning scheme to keep the installer from auto-nuking my winxp partition, but the other defaults worked great. The only hardware I had that didn't work was my d-link wireless nic, however that brand wlan controller has a specific note of hatred in the supported hardware list, so it just didn't suprise me that much.
It's better suited for aunt minnie than win95 was, IMHO. Sure it'll probably require minor maintenance from some kid in the family to keep it running, but it has an office suite, email, web browsing, printing, multimedia, cd burning, video playback, etc. all right out of the box. And that's just the free version. The for-sale version also includes (IIRC) crossover office so you can run MS office, plus it also has other windows emulators so you can run many of your favorite windows programs.
Anyhow, I guess my point is that linux today is in some cases just as user friendly for the casual user as win95 was back in 1995. It's just that microsoft and apple have done such a good job pushing each other that our expectations have soared. What we'd consider perfect for aunt minnie back in 1995 wouldn't even be considered usable nowadays.
Just IMHO.
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The only hardware I had that didn't work was my d-link wireless nic,
You mean you got one working on windows? :p
Not so long ago I talked with a hardware retailer who showed me 3 feet high stack of D-link wireless gear that had been returned for warranty and change. He said the chain dropped the brand completely after getting so many returns.
Before this we tried 4 different D-link configurations at the office and they wouldn't work. Finally we gave up.
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Actually, that's a bit of an ironic observation eagl. The main gripe in regards to Windows (by skuzzy et al) is the unknown overhead. I have a SuSe LINUX pro distribution sitting here that is some 5 CDs worth of installation. I'd be willing to bet that what you installed was at least 2 CDs worth of installation.
xNIX has a ways to go to reach the average consumer for reasons the novice would care about (compatibility) and reasons the experts would care about (overhead).
I'm not really knocking the UNIX variants, just saying that when they try to be like an MS OS, they totally stray from every one of their strengths. But then, they won't get anywhere unless they try.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hey guys it's called beta testing.
The day microsoft has an operating system that I wouldn't consider "beta" is the day I consider using a PC (instead of a mac) for something other than gaming and downloading porn.
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I have fallen in love with OSX, and find it rock solid (abit mem hungry tho). It has a UNIX core and a very good gui. I also love my powerbook, but i would be a very happy man if they released OSX for other computers than apple. Rumors are that there is a finished version of OSX that is running on a P4 machine at apple HQ but its just rumors.
OSX + AMD64 homebuildt + AH2 (or3) would be a dream come true for me. :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I have fallen in love with OSX, and find it rock solid (abit mem hungry tho). It has a UNIX core and a very good gui. I also love my powerbook, but i would be a very happy man if they released OSX for other computers than apple. Rumors are that there is a finished version of OSX that is running on a P4 machine at apple HQ but its just rumors.
OSX + AMD64 homebuildt + AH2 (or3) would be a dream come true for me. :D
Sorry, OS-X is basically Unix, with an Apple GUI slapped on top. Apple have improved a few odds and ends but overall its lacking. And whenever something doesn't work right Apple blame it on the underlying Unix core. Its also the noisiest POS on a network I've ever seen - you think Netbios is bad? You ain't see nuthing til you see an Apple network with MDNS, Rendevouz and other crap creating broadcast storms.
Its also not "rock solid", Apple has their BSOD - its called the Brown Screen of Death (I've seen it many times). And the OS-X servers often need complete rebuilds to make minor changes (unless you're a Unix expert and do it from the commandline).
Sure Windows ain't great, but man there is a crapload of "myth" surrounding Apples and OS-X.
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Ok.
I have never had a problem with it tho. Windows otoh ...sheesh :D
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Well, our office is 50/50 Mac/PC's. Its a confrontational area. Especially the firewall, which I manage, everytime something on the Mac doesn't work they blame the firewall. Despite the fact I can point to technical issues in OS X (like using pptp for VPNing, and their stupid iChat Video chat application that resembles Netmeeting V1).