Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Am0n on September 20, 2001, 09:57:00 AM
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No sir this is not another post about the infamous gravity defying N1K, i think that topic has been beat into the ground.
But the La7, a BnZer nightmare..
Heres how it happened.
I was very high above them scanning the skies in my F4D, i was at 20k and the targets were 10-15k. 2 spits heading west and i was heading north. having the ALT advantage i decided i would make a pass at them. breaking hard west and diving steep at one of the would be victims i unloaded on him hitting him good, lit up like christmas. Checking six i noticed he was spewing out thick black smoke.. in the same instance i noticed they were not alone, out of the peaks on the mountains came the UFO (a LA7) headed strait for me. buy now the spits were 3k out and the LA7 3.5k. I still had good alt/speed advantage on all the planes so i thought i would make a climbing run for it. The LA7 was lower than the spits even, so i THOUGHTi had good odds. (can you see where this is going?) Now leaving the spits in my wake was not a problem, but this speed deamon la7 passed them up and kept at me, closing very fast. Still climbing i thought to my self, he had energy built up for a fall or something and it was going to bleed away soon.. No. After long chase he started to slow as we reached 20k, but closing still. at 1.5 out i decided he was not going to stop closing and decided to make a Zero G dive evasive manuever, at 450-500 mph i gently pulled out of the dive and he nailed me good.. dead.
Sorry you had to read all this. My Question is where did i go wrong? ive heard (and now seen) the stories of the speed monger LA7, i did not realize it could climb so well and handle such extreme speeds and shoot steady. should insted of going for atl, started a gradual steady decline when he was 3k out (and lower).
Hopefully my losses were not in vein and the smokey slow flying spit met his maker as i did mine.
Thx for your time aces
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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Being someone who has flown the LA-7 a lot when it was released I would say that just about any AC going from a climb to a 0-G dive is freshmeat.net, Especially if I've already got speed. LA-7 can accelerate (in a dive) to remarkable speeds.
I would say that you reacted too soon by going into your dive at d1.5k, he may not have been able to keep following you up. The la-7 needs to close to d300 for a "Quality" shot. Another thing, IMHO the la-7's handling starts dropping off drasticaly over 18k alt, meaning an la-7 over 20k against a decent HOG pilot won't want to stick around for long way up there. But if he would've managed stay with you over 20k some ACM by a HOG can cause him to overshoot and that is exactly what a high la-7 doesnt want and would probably dive to extend.
I hope some of this made some sence.
Thats all if you intended to fight him, If you see an la-7 coming and you know you don't want to fight, don't waste time wondering what to do, If your slow, dive and head toward the nearest base or friendly, If your fast, watch and see how quickly he's gaining (if he's lower), there are a lot of factors involved with any fight and it takes a lot of practice (and dying) to know when to hold em and know when to run. :D
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: AcId ]
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also, don't forget to go to the General Discussion board and whine about the La7 and the fact that you saw two Spits prior to the La7! :D
Lachovins and Nikis and Spits, oh my!
LOL!! I'm adding that to my siggie right now!
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lol
not whining here and not going to there.. he got me good, hats off to him he more than earned his kill.
Thanks ACID i didnt realize that the la7 wasnt so agile at high alts, we were way up at least 20k. I coulda shook him had i known that, i just went with what normaly works with other attackers under those circumstances. my hog can put a move on just about any plane at that alt, but i thought that the la7 was a good atl plane (just made since that a fast plane could handle great hieghts to me). But i was wrong, and i learned that lesson well!!
maybe i should have started a slight decline when he was 2k out to build speed then a short dive followed buy a sharp turn when he got close to firing range. would this have been effective? or can the la7 turn good at high speeds? (would have been lower alt given this scenerio)
None the less thanks for the info, feal free to post more!! im always open to sugestions.
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Yeah, it's fast but I personaly don't dogfight over 18k with it, unless ofcourse the situation calls for it. Then I try to drag the enemy lower where I'm faster and more maneuverable. At high alts I'm very conservative with stick movements, an la-7 can blow all its E in one good turn up high. But to answer your question, yes, it is still very maneuverable at high speeds, especially low and it'll hold together in a high-G turn (i've never ripped the wings off). A tight turn by you that would cause him to blackout would be an ideal move granted that once the la-7 is turning and likely in blackout you should make another turn so that your not where he thinks you'll be after his blackout (get it?) then while he's scanning the skies you have a moment to maneuver for a possible shot or at least a chance to set one up. Thats all if he takes the bait and tries to follow you in the initial turn. He might not want to blackout and may extend a bit while climbing a little, If he does that you may be able to get off a snapshot if you can roll back into the direction you were initialy heading before the first turn (follow?). Kind of an overshoot i suppose.
LA-7 is a tough plane under 15k IMHO, I would think that a HOG would want to be in the position to BnZ, don't try to turnfight with him unless your over 20k.
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if anyone remembers the 190a5 when it was first introduced then you know the La7 is nothing new. just another flight model that needs to be adjusted. all the dweebs capitalize on the bug like they do with the m16 till its fixed.
thats the way it goes
if you fly a plane other than the n1k2 or la7 just expect these two aircraft to do odd things whenever they are in any sort of vertical move from climb, dive to zoom.
you then will not be surprised by their ability to do things that no other aircraft in AH is capable of.
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Um.. question, Fester.. What bug?
I've heard and experienced the "fuel leak" bug, but I don't think I've heard anything about something about LA-7 performance. Can you plz clarify on this?
:confused:
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la7 has same problem as n1k2 just not as bad
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and which problem might that be fester? Too much e retention?
Come on, you know as well as I do that that won't neuter the La7. It accelerates like a bat outta hell. A little less e retention ain't gonna hurt.
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BnZ an La-7 with the F4UD only above 20k??
I've been doing something terribly wrong by taking every LA-7 into a turn figth with my F4 and usually sending the La-7 home (they're touchy about getting within 600 yds, go figure)
Maybe I've been fighting lousy La-7 pilots but my F4UD has never been outturned.
-Booz
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I'm one of those dweebs that capitalizes on the La7's uber flight model, but only for base defense, cause its quick to get up and has the speed to get away from the vulchers. I have a bit of experience vs F4U's C and D's in La7 and I think the La7 outclasses it in almost all areas except low speed handling and firepower in the C model. I could be wrong but I'm sure i've been outturned on numerous occasions at low speeds by the F4U.
Think your best defense there would've been better SA and making sure you had enough E to get back up where your speed and alt would've given you a chance. Offensively you could've tried a front quarter shot or tried to E fight him seeing as you saw him long distance and you had some alt.
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Wasn't there something on one of the other posts that said something like the La-7's WEP goes out above 8k? Is that true?
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If I'm not mistaken the La-7 in real life didn't get any advantage from it's blower above 10K.
The La-7 is in my opinion an extremely tough a/c to fight. It has some incredible characteristics working for it: it has an incredible Thrust/Weight ratio- (1600 HP, 1800 HP WEP) vs. something like a max weight of 8000 lbs. Compare that to say a P-51D (1490 HP, 1650HP WEP) vs. 10,000 lbs. The T/W ratio explains some of it's incredible E retention capabilities. On top of that the La-7 has a a stall speed of around 90 MPH at sea level (not sure of the accuracy since I haven't flown the La-7 in awhile). This wing-loading reflects a superior instantaneous turn performance. It's sustained turn performance is really good as well since it's powerplant and low weight can offset a lot of induced drag in a turn. Add its high sustained airspeed and you have a a/c that can actually angles fight but extend away easily as well.
Amon- I fly primarily the P-51D so I can't offer any comments from experience on fighting the La-7 in a F4U-1D. In the P51D, one of my tactics is to stay only in engagements at very high speeds with the La-7 where I can even out any turn advantage of the La-7 has over my P-51D. I also avoid any sustained turning fights with them and try to conserve my E as much as possible with low g a/c controls.
The La-7 retains E pretty well so that's another characteristic you might exploit in a defensive situation. Instead of a pure zero-g extend you might have also tried going level and letting him close and then perform a hard break, scissor, or rolling scissor to force an overshoot since you'll bleed E much faster than the La-7 will.
Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: dtango ]
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If im reading your oringal post correctly, you never noticed the la7 untill you started your zoom climb out of the initial attack. Meaning you cant possibly know its initial E state when you first saw it. I've been caught out by cunning pilots (funked) who start off high dive into a fray at very high speeds and you havent noticed what they're doing until you see them 3.5 off your 6 following you up in your zoom and shooting you off your perch.
You cant assume uberness because it did something you didnt expect. In this case it probably meant you under-estimated its intial E by assuming it was co-e with your original targets. That can be fatal.
the la7 is a damn monster as well, pays to be very carefull of them indeed.
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Thx for the input guys.
I had good learning experience with the F4 this weekend, the great part was that i was not flying it, a well trained enemy was. In the 3 battles we had Rocket unknowingly showed me how to fly that monster like i never knew possible. I was flying a 205 and he whooped me good, the last fight i took off in my trusty f4 and seemingly done better but none the less fell to his 50 cals.
One thing i noted is that the f4 is a hi-yo yo deamon, very good at it indeed if you enter the it at high speeds. You guys probably all ready knew of this but ive only played for less than a month and have never touched a flight sim prior to this so this is all new to me. I bagged a few spits/109s at low alt last night in a large scale confrintation when they tried to out turn me, i just nosed straight up and ruddered down behind them going much faster then them.
Another thing that i noted was the faster you go in the f4 the sharper it turns, to a point of course. I showed a 109 the truth of that in a high speed chase with him persuing me, around 400-450 mph with him on my six i started a gradual climb and quickly turned it full stick and ive never seen that AC change directions so fast, i ended up going directly away from him at a reltivy high speed, with much more alt. i lost him with out a doubt.
I guess the trick to turning it fast is to not just pull it to the fullest extent instantly but to gradualy get it there in a slow continuos motion. (hey im new dont laugh =] )
I should thank Rocket, i had almost given up on the F4. Thanks for opening my eyes to a new playing field.
On the LA7 topic, i caught one the other night fresh off the run way i was straffing the field, his wheels just lifted off as i Boomed in from medium/high to hit him, i got a snap shot but he made a ACM and came out on my six, i was zooming away at this point, and he CAUGHT up to me! fresh off the ground. I was able to evade him and my budy cleared my six, but that is just nuts to witness such a thing.
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Spatula you could be 100% correct, shouldnt have assumed that i had more inertia then him. but to my knowledge that AC wasnt any good at 15K+, so i was going to use that to my advantage.
Doesnt the F4 have a better roll rate than the LA7 at 250-300 mph? Ive noted that it can out roll just about anything i confront in high speed persuits. Around the above listed speed it can roll extremely fast.
Being persued (normal for me) buy a 109 at medium alt i dove to 0 G dive and was falling like a rock.. at 450+mph i pulled up firmly and blacked out, while i was out i rolled to a new heading and pulled out of the climb comming too from my black out the 109 was right where i thought he would be, following a straight path from the one i diverted from, 50 cal food he was.. =]
Ive yet to best a la7 one on one, ill just have to keep at it till i find what works. Or one of you veterns tell me your tricks!!
Thanks again
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Corsair rolls very well, I think only the P38 rolls better out of the American iron planes. The La7 rolls well too, but I think the Hog can beat it at high speeds. The F4U has a fantastic instantaneous turn rate, but bleeds E quickly. So you don't wanna turn with a turn fighter still, but you can use the turn rate and roll rate at high speed to throw off most other planes. I think that is, I don't fly the Hog all that much except for Carrier JABOs.
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"Corsair rolls very well, I think only the P38 rolls better out of the American iron planes"
P38 only outrolls US planeset when at high speeds (350MPH+)
The La7's weak spots are its strengths. It accels really well and is damn fast and retains a lot of E. Fine, use that against the la7. How? Sciscor it. If you in a plane that handles well at low speeds, sciscor the thing on the deck, where the la7's not-so-good low speed handling will either make it auger or make it run to momma.
If your plane does not perform like the la7 (aka, if you not in a 190d9, 109g10, n1k,yak9u) in engine power and you see the la7 dive at any time for whatever reason, DONT follow it. Many times la7's merge my P-38 and either split-S when I turn on their 6 or dive to gain a lot of speed knowing that if you follow them they will easily hammerhead you or outloop you or make you lose alt and then bleed off your E trying to climb up with him.
Let them go down, you circle lazily and gain your own E. When the la7 zooms up again it will be YOU the one that will decide how the fight goes.
To note, I flew the la7 a few nights ago just for the heck of it. I was dumbstruck at how much damage the thing takes. A deck fight with 2 spits , 1 190, 1 la7 , 1 yak and 1 n1k ... 1 spit dove on me and hit me good (a lot of pings heard, .50's and 20mm's)...no damage at all. Yak slash-dove after the spit, hit me 3 times, no damage. Then after a while (and shooting down the spit and yak), I was slow and wep'ing to get speed when the n1k bounced me. It hit me like 8 times. I only lost ONE flap. Outran the n1k and then I had the 190 on me, it made 2 passes at me, in both he scored many hits. Again, NO DAMAGE to the la7!!!!. After whacking the n1k, the red la7 got real close on my 6 and hit me many times, blowing my tail off.
Talked with the 190 pilot, he was using full 20mm loadout.
So somehow this THING ate at least 10 rnds of .50 and 5 rounds of 20mm from spit, 3-4 pings from yak (mgs and 1 cannon hit for sure, it was really close to me), takes 12+ shells from the n1k 20mm cannons and only then loses 1 flap, then takes at least 20 rnds of 20mm from the 190..no damage. Finally the la7's shvaks at d150 have to hit me several times to rip off tail.
Since when did this thing get Reactive Armour? WOW.
Flew it a few more times in the following days, and so far ive taken unreal amount of hits on every flight before something is shot out. When the engine is hit, it dont matter, engine will only die like 8 minutes after your radiator is whacked. And WEP all the way baby.
Shoot La7's till they blow or lose a wing, seeing them smoke or tumble is not an indication that you smacked it.
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Good point 38 ive lost more planes chasing a LA7 then taking any other approach.
What is the weapondry on that AC?
having the 6 50s to burn at them im confident that i could hold my own head on with most air craft, beside a p38 and a few others. Just got to make sure you pull out at 500-600.
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The LA7 has cannons, I cannot remember the exact ammo load (400 rounds?) but it is not as much as other planes.
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GeistX:
Please check your private messages on bulletin board. Click "my profile" to get to it.
Tango, Sargeant
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412 Braunco Mustang Fighter Squadron
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Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will,
but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
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