Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GREENTENERAL on March 11, 2005, 05:59:50 PM
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Hi! I'm very new here, just got the game today.
I was wondering about something that I just came across as I was looking at the different fighters that are available.
In the Italian section, where is the Fiat G.55/O Centauro?
I'm by no means an expert, but I have always been told that it was the best Italian fighter of WWII. Is this wrong? I just thought it was kind of strange that the C.202 would be there for it's significance even though it is a bit poopy woopy, yet the Fiat is left out.
I'm guessing that very few people use the 2 Italian fighters that are offered, and for good reason, unless they are really good for reasons that I am unaware of.
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WELCOME TO AH!
At the present we only have two Italian aircraft in the game - the C.202 & C.205.
While the G.55 was probabily the Standard fighter of the IAF during WW2 the best was definately the C.205 hands down.
And while alot of folks don't like the IAF fighters - a good pilot in them can keep up with the Spitfires and just about any other Allied aircraft.
Come over and try out the COMBAT THEATER - this week both the C.202 & C.205 are available there against their historical counterparts.
Again, welcome to AH! :aok
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Thanks for the welcome!
I'll definately try those. Right now, I'm really liking the DORA.
This game is very detailed, very cool! If I get my skills up, I'll try the 109s next.
Do they put new aircraft in the game? That would be very nice.
Maybe some of the French fighters would be a nice addition as well, and of course the one Australian bird would be cool.
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the 205 is a good fighter, new planes and GV's are added in an ongoing basis.
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Very sweet!
With most sims, I could care less weather they get more stuff, but I really like this one, and I really like the fact that it expands.
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Welcome.
It's gonna be yer fun for a long time. And we will definately see more Italian fighters in the future.
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Hmmm, I wouldnt be so optimistic about italian fighters. Judging from what has been added and from the time it took, I'm quite sure we wont see the nice G.55 Centauro.
Actually PYRO should have the original G.55 flight manual but (I sent it to HTC some years ago), climb and speed performance specs apart, it probably lacks many hard data.
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
Hi! I'm very new here, just got the game today.
I was wondering about something that I just came across as I was looking at the different fighters that are available.
In the Italian section, where is the Fiat G.55/O Centauro?
I'm by no means an expert, but I have always been told that it was the best Italian fighter of WWII. Is this wrong? I just thought it was kind of strange that the C.202 would be there for it's significance even though it is a bit poopy woopy, yet the Fiat is left out.
I'm guessing that very few people use the 2 Italian fighters that are offered, and for good reason, unless they are really good for reasons that I am unaware of.
Of the 212 G.55s produced, 85 were postwar...it's a good bet
you didn't see a whole bunch of them flying during the war.
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
In the Italian section, where is the Fiat G.55/O Centauro?
I'm by no means an expert, but I have always been told that it was the best Italian fighter of WWII. Is this wrong?
I'm guessing that very few people use the 2 Italian fighters that are offered, and for good reason, unless they are really good for reasons that I am unaware of.
Well, probably it was probably the best italian *high altitude interceptor* with his 3x20mm and 2x12,7mm and plenty of ammo. The Luftwaffe test pilots loved it becouse it was better than the wing gondolas armed early 109G-6 and the 190A. During 1943 actually the LW lacked an heavy armed good high alt interceptor.
It had more wing area than the C.205 so at high altitudes it turned better and was a more stable gun platform. However as speed and climb performance are concerned, the C.205 was better. The more you lower the alt of the fight and the better the C.205 is compared with the G.55. All in all the C.205 is (probably) a better energy MA fighter.
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I guess it is pretty difficult to find detailed info on these things, especially when you consider pilot accounts. The role in attack vs. defend can make a big difference in how a battle was flown
I think that some planes get a bad rep simply because their pilots were not as experienced or they were always forced into the role at a disadvantage, weather they were outnumbered or forced to defend. Then there is the painful task of sifting through propaganda, which all sides were very guilty of. I guess in times of war this may be a neccecary evil to keep moral up, but now that it is over it is a pain in the arse. I don't know how many times I've picked up a book about the subject that was written here, only to see that it was slaughtered by the U.S anti-iconoclast dweebs. Same goes for the foreign material. I don't see why they felt the need to to lie about the performance of the craft. It seemed that they loved to protect the integrity of the engineers even if it meant that this would downplay the skill of their pilots, and now that alot of the smoke is clear, some of these planes are nearly extinct and the pilots have died of old age.
I love machines, but I will always beleive that pilot skill is a more important factor when considering aircraft within it's perameters. I would not go as far as saying that any plane will do for a great pilot (although there are probably some pilots in here that are good enough to shoot everyone down equipped only with a Jungmeister and a revolver), but I would say that alot of aircraft in that era had alot more potential than they are given credit for.
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Originally posted by gatt
Well, probably it was probably the best italian *high altitude interceptor* with his 3x20mm and 2x12,7mm and plenty of ammo. The Luftwaffe test pilots loved it becouse it was better than the wing gondolas armed early 109G-6 and the 190A. During 1943 actually the LW lacked an heavy armed good high alt interceptor.
It had more wing area than the C.205 so at high altitudes it turned better and was a more stable gun platform. However as speed and climb performance are concerned, the C.205 was better. The more you lower the alt of the fight and the better the C.205 is compared with the G.55. All in all the C.205 is (probably) a better energy MA fighter.
Yes that is true, they were definately different beasts of different function. Oh, I just noticed that I messed up the name of the plane. It should be the Fiat G.55/I not the O. The O was the weaker version with less firepower.
The main reason I would like to see the Fiat, is that I beleive that it would be very complementary to the 205 and other aircraft, and probably alot of fun as well.
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"While the G.55 was probabily the Standard fighter of the IAF during WW2"
Hardly!! Way more c.205s were made than were made with the G55, and the c.205 was a rare bird itself!
No, if you're looking for standard Italian planes during the second world war, you need to look for the G50, the CR 200 or maybe (maybe) the Re2000 radial series.
Only reason people want the G55 is the same reason people wanted the P38G. They think it will out fly and out shoot any other plane in the game. We have enough uber planes by my counting.
I hope we never get it. But that's just me.
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Only reason people want the G55 is the same reason people wanted the P38G. They think it will out fly and out shoot any other plane in the game. We have enough uber planes by my counting.
I hope we never get it. But that's just me. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, I don't know if I could call G55 an uber plane. It does have it's weaknesses as described by GATT, but I do think it was a good plane. I am also for seeing some French aircraft, not because I think that they are the best or anything, but I think that this would make for some interesting scenarios and recreations that are not possible without them.
I will still have my short list of favs, that do not include the G55. I just really like variety, but the idea of introducing more nice planes does not intimidate me in the least. I think it would help break up the usual tight followings of some of the more popular aircrafts in the game and create an even more rich environment to play in.
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Considering that the French folded almost immediately like a house of cards in an earthquake, and that they did almost nothing to the LW planes of the time, and the fact that once the Germans took over they felt the majority of French planes were inferior and delegated them to "advanced trainer" status, I don't think there's any reason to include french planes. They served probably one of the smallest roles in the conflict.
Near the beginning of the conflict a RAF pilot was doing a scout mission in a Hurc Mk.1. This was shortly before France fell. He was approached by no less than 5 Dewoitines and in his dinky Hurc Mk.1. They came in guns blazing, not realizing he was RAF, and he was STILL able to outclimb them then out run them, and get away safely. Read the stats all you want, but that doesnt tell you how the real thing actually flew. From reports I've heard, the French planes were inferior. The only advanced planes they had were toward the END of hte war, when such planes were no longer necessary due to the massive numbers of USAAF planes already filling the role. Said advanced French planes had limitd production run and saw little action if I recall.
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Outstanding display of ignorance and clichés.
Now go out and buy some books.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Considering that the French folded almost immediately like a house of cards in an earthquake, and that they did almost nothing to the LW planes of the time, and the fact that once the Germans took over they felt the majority of French planes were inferior and delegated them to "advanced trainer" status, I don't think there's any reason to include french planes. They served probably one of the smallest roles in the conflict.
Near the beginning of the conflict a RAF pilot was doing a scout mission in a Hurc Mk.1. This was shortly before France fell. He was approached by no less than 5 Dewoitines and in his dinky Hurc Mk.1. They came in guns blazing, not realizing he was RAF, and he was STILL able to outclimb them then out run them, and get away safely. Read the stats all you want, but that doesnt tell you how the real thing actually flew. From reports I've heard, the French planes were inferior. The only advanced planes they had were toward the END of hte war, when such planes were no longer necessary due to the massive numbers of USAAF planes already filling the role. Said advanced French planes had limitd production run and saw little action if I recall.
I agree with you 100%, but that was France and the war, this is a game. I would never say that the French planes were great, or even really that good, but I would say that some good pilots may enjoy such a challenge when it comes to reinactment and scenarios. For a few, I'm sure that kicking some tail in an underdog would give a great feeling of accomplishment. I think this is why some of the best pilots in here do not choose the uber planes as their ride. If I were flying one, I would die, but that is me. Crappy planes have alot to offer, CHALLENGE!
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I might be a little late, but Welcome to Aces High!
Like Angus said, 'it's going to be yer fun for awhile' I, for instance, have been playing since 1999 and still like it!
I really hope to meet you up in the skies mate!
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Originally posted by straffo
Outstanding display of ignorance and clichés.
Now go out and buy some books.
Hey, STRAFFO, could you recommend some good books on that subject? most of the material that I have come across is extremely one sided and only takes into account victor pilot testimony, when we all know that their are alot more variables to consider.
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Can you read french ?
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Originally posted by straffo
Can you read french ?
I can always translate, and I don't mind learning French. I'll just put that in the same place inside my head as all the rest of the things I have learned, that have had limited application for me.
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I'm out for 3 days but I'll try to make a short list when back.
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Originally posted by straffo
I'm out for 3 days but I'll try to make a short list when back.
Thanks alot! I would really apreciate it!
That will really help me make better objective comparisons.
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
Hey, STRAFFO, could you recommend some good books on that subject? most of the material that I have come across is extremely one sided and only takes into account victor pilot testimony, when we all know that their are alot more variables to consider.
Paul Ritchey's Fighter Pilot[/i] (the 1st pilot autobiography of ww2, i think) is the book Krusty the Klown was refering & IIRC he refered to it inaccurately. Fighter Pilot[/i] is an amazingly good book, certainly amongst the best of it's genre, but make sure you get the right book by that title, there are many others
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While the G55 might be a good plane i am more intrested in getting the list complete of planes that were used in ww2 more frequent.
There are still a lot of planes that were produced and flowen more than 1000 times. So best way in my eyes would be put up the numbers of units in combat service for planes from '39-'45 and see which we miss, from top down.
My personal guess is we get to 30 before the FIAT G.55 that are not implemented yet in ah2, but thats only a guess.
ciao schutt
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Originally posted by Krusty
Only reason people want the G55 is the same reason people wanted the P38G. They think it will out fly and out shoot any other plane in the game. We have enough uber planes by my counting.
I hope we never get it. But that's just me.
Check better your books Krusty (if you have any): the G.55 was definitely not an uber fighter. It mounted the DB605A-1 engine and weighted more then a C.205. Its max speed at 22-23K was 385mph TAS. More or less like an early 109G-6. But it was stable and its punch was deadly. Hardly an uber ride. But above all it was a beauty:
(http://www.paulligiovanni.com/aviation/data/608/4Fiat_G_55.jpg)
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
Thanks alot! I would really apreciate it!
That will really help me make better objective comparisons.
the best one is this one
http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article.php3?id_article=61
unfortunatly it's sold out.
And I won't give you mine ;)
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(http://wmilitary.neurok.ru/wwii/g55-f2.jpg)
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Rocky Marciano & Jake LaMotta
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Hey Storch, I got to ride on one of those Italian fighters :-) The Uber one :-)
Rocky Marciano came by the house for dinner when I was a pup, somewhere there is a pic of me sitting on his shoulder. The house was on Bay Shore Drive, back in the mid '50s. Your namesake was a guest too (Larry Storch) :D
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Originally posted by M.C.202
Hey Storch, I got to ride on one of those Italian fighters :-) The Uber one :-)
Rocky Marciano came by the house for dinner when I was a pup, somewhere there is a pic of me sitting on his shoulder. The house was on Bay Shore Drive, back in the mid '50s. Your namesake was a guest too (Larry Storch) :D
woohoo bayshore drive during the mid '50s you should see it now. but I think it had way more elan back then. I used to valet at the fountainbleau when ben novak owned it in the early '70s and all the wiseguys hung out there. I met both mr. marciano and mr. lamotta among others.
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He he... I don't think I would like what I would see, even though we moved to Vegas for first grade. The club was on Biscane Blvd. Look up "The Vagabond Club" from the early to mid '50's... I'm still stuck with a love of Art-Deco caused by Miami. "I used to valet at the fountainbleau". Now THAT hotel had style.
"and all the wiseguys hung out there" I have no idea of who you mean. All those guys were independent business men. Just ask them. You know, “The Boys”. None in Vegas either.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hardly!! Way more c.205s were made than were made with the G55, and the c.205 was a rare bird itself!
No, if you're looking for standard Italian planes during the second world war, you need to look for the G50, the CR 200 or maybe (maybe) the Re2000 radial series.
Indeed, you're right Krusty, the 205 was produced in more exemplars than the 55, and it was rare.
As for the standard fighter of the Regia Aeronautica, it is hard to know exactly how many exemplars of one type were in service at a given time, but we could roughly argue which were the most used types looking at the production numbers: as far as I know, the model produced in the highest number was the Fiat CR. 42, a fighter biplane produced in about 1800 exemplars (the exact number varies according to the different sources).
The Macchi C.200 (not CR.!) Saetta was produced in about 1150 exemplars, while the Reggiane Re. 2000 Falco was produced in about 300 exemplar and it wasn't in service with the Regia Aeronautica, being used only by the Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy), with 36 exemplars, modified to be used with catapult. Instead, it saw service in foreign countries, particulary Hungary and Sweden (notice, however, that some sources state that the Regia Aeronautica had 1 squadron of Re.2000 in service). Only the following Re.2001 and Re.2002 were in service with the Regia Aeronautica (about 237 and 225 exemplar built, the latter being used even by the Luftwaffe).
The other only fighters produced in a reasonable (yet insufficient, if compared with other countries) number were the Macchi C.202 Folgore (about 1100 exemplars) and the Fiat G.50 Freccia (about 780).
Again, I have to specify that production numbers couldn't tell us which was the most used model in service at a given time, but they give us a hint in that direction.
As for the "ueber plane" matter. Greenteneral and Gatt are right, the G.55 wasn't a ueber plane (given for granted that we can at all speak about "ueber planes": any plane has weaknesses, fortunately, and it's all a matter of how good is a pilot to exploit only the strong sides of his ride that makes a plane better than another, even in this game, not only in real life): the Centauro was a good designed, on an equal footing with the foreign fighters produced in 1943. with strong performances in certain conditions, and poor ones in others. So, I still hope to see it in AHII, possibly along with the Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario, another great italian plane.
And, Greenteneral, it was not a "O" version of the G.55 but a "0" (zero) series (and the subsequent I -first- series, in latin numbers), the preproduction series, with weaker armament (1 20mm cannon and 4 12.7mm machine gun; they were just 12 planes).
About the French plane topic, well, again as far as I know, they didn't do well against German planes, with the exception of the Dewoitine D.520, well able to put in trouble a Bf 109; but I admit that I have searched few sources about French planes.
Ok, I think you had enough of my boring (and presumptuous :p) lessons, guys! Just one last thing: I'm working on a website dedicated to italian WWII planes, so I'd like to have help in finding sources, particularly about the less known birds (Gatt, questa è soprattutto per te!) such as bombers, recon plane, trainers, etc. Thank you!
Bye!
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Si? :)
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Ciao Gatt!:)
I just guessed that, being you italian, maybe you could help me in find some sources about the less known italian warbirds of WWII, for my project: can you suggest me books, possibly specialized bookshops in Tuscany, or even some good website?
Of course, the request is forwarded to anyone who thinks he could help. (Ecco perchè ho scritto in inglese... e poi non si sa, mai, magari mi si offendevano se scrivevo in italiano! ;) Un'ulitma cosa: perchè hai scelto quella frase come firma?)
Thanks.
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The Dewoitine D 520, was a good aicraft in 1940,and performed well,but it arrived in numbers to late, just before the French collapse. French airman shot down 108 axis planes with the D 520 before the French capitulation.
by the way D 520 pilot Pierre Le Gloan claimed 4 Hurricanes in Syria in June 1941.
That said the D 520 would not suit the MA,but would be good for scenarios,and the CT.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_30_1054696500.jpg)
http://www.aldini.it/re2005/
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I have had some interest in Italian planes as well. Outturn 109 & Mustang. I recently read a FW 190 in Medditerranean book. It ststed the germans did not like the 2005 as it stalled to easy at slow speeds & was not robust enough. Only 2 kills were recorded by germans in North Italy with this plane.
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Ciao Lupo,
dimmi cosa ti serve. Ho parecchia roba da parte. Quasi tutta "scannerizzata".
Bookshop online specializzati? Senza dubbio http://www.abebooks.com che, anche se non specializzato, localizza qualsiasi libro usato.
La frase della firma? La trovo piuttosto azzeccata e neanche troppo pesante nei confronti degli italiani, soprattutto se detta da quel bastardo di Beurling ;)
Buon lavoro! ;)
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Lazerus, thanks for the link, I didn't know this site, really nice.
Agent 009, about the 2005, as far as I know (as always), the (relative) structural weakness of the tail section, caused by the high speed easily achieved by this plane in dives, forced to land all the Sagittario, but was corrected by strengthening the aft fuselage, just before the Armistice. Regarding the Germans' opinion about this plane, all the Series 5 fighters (C.205, G.55 and Re.2005) were tested by a Luftwaffe technical board of pilots and engineers (even Kurt Tank, the 190 father), whose opinion was quite good for all of these planes (even though they recommended to concentrate the production on the G.55 only, considering it to be the best of the trio). As for the service with the Luftwaffe, I know that is only rumored that 13 exemplars of the Sagittario were used by the Germans against Allies raids over Berlin, or, according to other sources, over the Romanian oil fields, but, again as far as I know, there are no certain evidence of such use. So, that kill record seems suspect to me, for what I know. Anyway, consider that only 30/48 (numbers varying with the sources) Sagittario were built before the Armistice, so they couldn't play a great role in the war.
E, finalmente, caro Gatt, grazie per aver risposto al mio appello!
Nel sito, ho in mente di avere tre sezioni principali, dedicate rispettivamente ai mezzi, agli uomini e alle battaglie dell'aeronautica italiana nella IIGM; ho cominciato a scrivere le prime schede di aerei, ma purtroppo son riuscito a raccogliere materiale sufficiente solo per i velivoli più famosi, per lo più i caccia e qualche bombardiere, come lo Sparviero.
Come vedi ho bisogno di molto materiale, qualcosa sto già cercando di recuperare (ho scoperto un'ottima libreria a Milano, http://www.libreriamilitare.com/ ) in particolare sugli aerei meno conosciuti: come i Ba.65, Ba.88, Ro.57, FC.20, i ricognitori come i Caproni Ca.310 e (?)312, o gli idrovolanti, ma anche su macchine più note, delle quali conosco comunque poco o nulla, come tutta la produzione CANT.
Come vedi ho ancora molto lavoro di ricerca da fare, così ti sarò grato per l'eternità per tutto l'aiuto che potrai darmi (la slinguazzata è d'obbligo! ;) ):ti mando una mail con l'indirizzo di posta che uso più spesso (quello che ho lasciato all'HTC è "di servizio"), così, se vuoi, puoi mandarmi un po' di materiale.
Grazie mille!
P.S. Hai ragione, "Screwball", da quel che ho letto, era un gran bastardo, e, tutto sommato, ci ha fatto un gran complimento! Mi incuriosiva il termine "Eyeties": non sono riuscito a tradurlo, vuol dire "fabbricanti di gelati", come sembra da quel che c'è scritto qui http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/beurling/beurling.htm?
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Do you suppose The Macci 2002 could outturn the Spit?
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No, the Macchi C202 was not supposed to outturn Spitfires MkV Trop.
Actually, the C.202 was faster than those Trop Spits at medium altitudes and was used with "hit and run" (or climb) techniques by italian pilots over NA and Malta.
Thats what the former 4 Stormo, 9 Gruppo, 96 Squadriglia commander E. Annoni (11 victories) told me a couple of years ago.
When I asked him if he actually saw his victims falling down he looked at me amazed and told me: "hell, perhaps my wingman saw them falling or parachuting, I had only the time for a short burst. Then I had to extend and climb away!"
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Well Nine,
I can't give you a straight answer.
First of all, while there was basically one only version of the Folgore (btw, it is Macchi and 202; the 2002 was a Reggiane fighter), there were many Spit variants, and they had different handling characteristics, given the evolution that the design had during the war. So, we can't just say "the Macchi outturned the Spitfire", we have to be more specific, and state which Spit we're talking about.
Second, the outturn matter itself it's too generic: turn rate and turn radius vary according to the conditions that they are recorded in, so, maybe the Spit V could outturn the 202 under 200 mph, but it was outturned over that speed; and there are more variables to keep in mind, e.g. altitude or weight.
Finally, there's the report matter: often you can find the opinions that an English or an Italian pilot had of enemy's aircraft. In most of the cases, when they're not too generic, they are just impressions that pilots had encountering that plane in combat and, as we can easily imagine, these impressions can't be objective (due to the heat of combat, mainly). Sometimes, the pilots could fly a captured enemy machine and make a more solid test of its flying characteristics: but even in this case, all we have is an opinion, not a direct comparison. Finally, during the war, the captured planes were used in mock combat to make a direct comparison with its opponents, but, as far as I know, such a test was never made between a Folgore and a Spitfire. But I'm not THAT big expert of history of flight, so, maybe, someone else can know about it.
What I can tell you is that for what I know, the Macchi did well in combat against the Spit V, mostly in Africa, but, of course, it is too generic to say that it could outturn the Spit.
I'm sorry, I can't satisfy your curiosity: but, if you want, we may meet in free rooms and find out if the Folgore can outturn the Spit in AH! ;)
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Thanks Gian, The Tony could outturn the Spit at low speed, but above 350, not.
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Tony? Do you mean the Kawasaki Ki- 61 Hien?
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Yah.
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Was the Ki-61 in combat with the Spitfires ever? Maybe with Seafires in summer 1945?....According to George Berling the Macchi pilots would turn fight, but the germans would not, but judging by Beurling's comat performance, maybe the Macchi pilots should not have
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Boy, good question. It appeared in New Guinea in 43. I believe it was Clive "killer" Caldwell, ( 27 kills in African desert & pacific ), that tested the Tony.
The Tony had Benz motor & was 1st Japanese fighter to give allied machines competition in the dive. Also 1st near 400 mph Japanese plane. Had overheating problems.
Tony 2 had reinforced wings, but not a success, so went back to tried & tested 1st wing. Wish there were more data on Tony 2.
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Bunch,
probably Beurling was talking about early war dogfights against italians flying CR-42 biplanes, G.50, C.200 and Re2001 monoplanes. All these could probably turn with and sometimes outturned Hurricanes and Spitfires.
When C.202 arrived in NA during late 1941 italian pilots discovered that at medium, low altitudes the Macchi was faster than RAF fighters, often armed with 4x20mm and/or with Tropical filters. But probably they could not turn with them.
!
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Lol! I just pressed the "reply" button to answer Bunch post, only to discover that you already did it, Gatt! It's the second time you precede me! ;)
I just want to add a couple of things to what you said: italian pilots, particularly in the beginning of the war, loved aerobatics (just watch the aerobatics displays organized by the regime) and turning fighting, maybe still having in mind the WWI aerial engagements. They were trained with particular emphasis in turning combat That's why they preferred nimble fighters, as biplane (and why a biplane, the CR.42 was the most produced italian fighter during wartime) and this preference was strengthen by the air victories achieved in spanish civil war. So, they surely like to engage turning combat, but they quickly learned that it wasn't the best tactic against all enemy planes.
Bye!
P.S. Gatt, hai ricevuto la mia mail?
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Right Gian! I didnt want to make my post too much long (and boring) ;)
P.S.: Sì, ho ricevuto l'email. Appena oggi mi hanno aggiustato il PC dell'ufficio dove ho materiale su: CR42, BR20, G50, G55, C200, C202, c205, Re2000, Re2002 ed SM79. Di quasi tutti ho il manuale originale scannerizzato. I file sono di dimensioni notevoli ma se hai un FTP capiente ti posso mandare quello che ti interessa.
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It is true about Italian pilots & acrobatics. One P-40 pilot mentioned the lovely loops a particular pilot did. It had nothing whatsoever to do with combat flying however he said. I then shot him down.
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Since the RAF jostled quite a bit with the Italians in the med, I have come across quite some material about it.
Tony Bartley, sqn leader of 111 sqn at Bone airfield told of a C.202 that he couldn't shake, in a long engagement. For some reason the Italian however broke off and tried to leave the party, - Tony caught him on the run and shot him down.
Neville Duke shot down an Italian pilot and met him. The Italian complained about the Germans, - said they were timid to mix it properly.
Will see if I find more.
Anyway, those Italian planes are good looking, and I vote for more into AH!
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
Hi! I'm very new here, just got the game today.
I was wondering about something that I just came across as I was looking at the different fighters that are available.
In the Italian section, where is the Fiat G.55/O Centauro?
I'm by no means an expert, but I have always been told that it was the best Italian fighter of WWII. Is this wrong? I just thought it was kind of strange that the C.202 would be there for it's significance even though it is a bit poopy woopy, yet the Fiat is left out.
I'm guessing that very few people use the 2 Italian fighters that are offered, and for good reason, unless they are really good for reasons that I am unaware of.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113584642_ap12.jpg)
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Originally posted by gatt
Bunch,
probably Beurling was talking about early war dogfights against italians flying CR-42 biplanes, G.50, C.200 and Re2001 monoplanes. All these could probably turn with and sometimes outturned Hurricanes and Spitfires.
When C.202 arrived in NA during late 1941 italian pilots discovered that at medium, low altitudes the Macchi was faster than RAF fighters, often armed with 4x20mm and/or with Tropical filters. But probably they could not turn with them.
!
George Beurling was not in the early war, his only combat contact with the Regia Aeronautica was Malta in 1942.
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Pattle had some good bipe fights with Italians.
Germans preferred yo-yo tactics in Desert, (Marseille excepted) & for good reason, even the P-40 could outturn the 109 below 10.000 ft. It paid heavy dividends for them.
Americans did the same in China. The results speak for themselves. Pacific as well
I'm sure there were some good Italian pilots, but they did not score particularly well in desert or med. Didn't have great tactics.
Germans however did. Marseille 151 kills, Bar 45, Schroer had 61 desert kills, ( including Clive Caldwell ), The point in war is to destroy enemy as economically as possible. It was not a sport, nothing "fair" about it. Push any advantage you have. No quarter given by either side.
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Anyone know how the Italians did in China (In CR 32s) against the Japanese (who were, according to reputation, dedicated dogfighters) monoplane fighters
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Lazerus, thanks for the link, I didn't know this site, really nice.
Glad to be able to share it with you. I've had it my favorites for about two years now. I'd gladly give up the Ta152 that we have now for the Re2005. Just for the diversity at least.
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Well, it seems this thread is no more on italian planes, but on italian pilots!
Originally posted by agent 009
I'm sure there were some good Italian pilots, but they did not score particularly well in desert or med. Didn't have great tactics.
You can bet there were! There were many good pilots in Italy, but, as you stated, they had poor tactics (mainly, they were trained in outdated tactics) and, in most of the cases, they flew planes with inferior performances: the only italian fighters able to match enemy's planes performances where the C.202 and the Series 5 fighters; and I already said how few they were.
Btw, another thing to keep well in mind: italians were badly outnumbered, during the whole war. In the 1939-1943 (after the Armistice, planes production was almost non-existent) the aeronautical factories in Italy produced about 10000 planes, roughly equivalent to the production of just one month in the U.S.
The truth is that Italy wasn't ready for a war: Mussolini's generals told him they couldn't be ready for a full scale war before 1942 (or maybe it was 1943, now I don't remember very well), but Germans' easy victories in the beginning of the war, and general opinion (and, mind you, it was so not only in Axis countries) that war wouldn't last much longer, urged Mussolini to enter it, just to be able to share with Hitler the benefits of victory (historians report -or maybe it was written in Ciano's diaries, if I'm not wrong- Mussolini said he needed «... a thousand of deads...» to sit at the negotiations!!! That was the value of life at the time).
So, please, talking about italian pilots, always keep in mind the few things above: and remember that they fought valiantly and that there were many good pilots among them. Their enemies admitted it, even a fellow like Beurling, though in his original way.
Ok, enough for nationalism (I fear I rushed a little beyond a quiet chat: my apologies, but I'm still afraid that many people have a wrong perception of italian soldiers), let's go to the CR.32 matter
Originally posted by Bunch
Anyone know how the Italians did in China (In CR 32s) against the Japanese (who were, according to reputation, dedicated dogfighters) monoplane fighters
Bunch, If you mean how italian pilots did in China, well, no italian pilots fought there (as always, as far as I know). The chinese nationalist government ordered a number of 16-24 (number varies with sources) pre-series CR.32 Freccia, armed with two 7.7 mm Vickers mg; first nine were delivered in 1935, and equipped a flight at Nanchang.
However, the order wasn't fulfilled: the italian propaganda said it was because of american pressures to sell the Curtiss P 40, but it seems that chineses didn't like the complex logistics needed to make the Freccia fly (the engine was fueled by 94-octanes benzine, obtained adding to normal benzine a 23% of alcohol and a 22& of benzol - at least, that's what I found written... I'm a lawyer not an engineer! ;) And I hope I translated well those technical terms from italian)
As for their performance against the japaneses, in May 1936 only 6 CR.32 were still operational, and, again, italian sources say they did well against japanese fighters in Shangai in August 1937, while engish sources say that they didn't shine in combat: I can't tell you where the truth is.
Ok, guys, I was TOOOOO long this time, even for my standards! I hope I didn't bore you :D
Bye!
P.S. Gatt, questa volta ti ho battuto sul tempo! ;) Ma sono stato troppo lungo! :(
Lazerus, I hope to see the Sagittario in AH soon, too! Have good flights!
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Some Italians fought in Russia no? Italian Planes did.
Yes indeed they were outnumbered, & hot kites they had were small in number.
Mick Mannock of ww1 said; Stunt flying never shot down an airplane. Richthofen felt same way, said he never once did a loop.
26 is official highscore for an Italian pilot, but as we know there could be a higher score. I have heard that war records were disposed of by Italy after war.
US pilot Tex wade had over 40 kills recorded in his logbook. He flew for RAF. Pattle had over 50.
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Pattle ranks as the No1 ace of the Western Allies AFAIK.
15 kills therefrom in a Bipe ;)
Anyway, stunt flying could get you out of harm's way.
BTW, Richtofen shot down the British Ace Lanoe Hawker after a long circling dogfight from high to the deck. So at least he knew something.
Lothar Von Richthofen was told to be much tougher, and completely agressive, - Manfred once said "My Brother is a Butcher" ;)
Got a Picture of them brothers in an old German book. Will scan one day and upload.
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35 minutes the dogfight between Hawker & Richthofen lasted. Unfortunately for Hawker, the wind blew them into German territory & he had to disengage which put Richthofen on his tail. Hawker plane could turn tighter, but Richthofens was faster. Manfred mentioned his opponent then did some silly loops then headed for his own lines.
Manfred learned later that evening that his opponent was Hawker. Manfred's 11th kill. Hawker had 9, but I have read that he actually had more but British kill counting had not really taken form yet, plus he flew many solo patrols & had no witnesses for his kills. He invented the double drum bullet stacking thing. He was the Brit equivalent to Boelke.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Bunch, If you mean how italian pilots did in China, well, no italian pilots fought there (as always, as far as I know).
Before the Flying Tigers
By Robert E. van Patten
Fully 10 years before the advent of Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers, American pilots and airplanes were involved in an air war over China. What was to become the Sino-Japanese War in 1937 actually began with a Japanese incursion in Manchuria in 1931. This conflict festered for the next six years. In that period, pilots from the US, Britain, France, Italy, Russia, and probably Germany took part in battles in the skies over China.
With the exception of the Italian and Russian contingents, which were officially sanctioned by their governments, the pilots who trained the Chinese and who fought for them were adventurers, soldiers of fortune, and out-of-work military professionals....
[/b]
from
http://www.afa.org/magazine/june1999/0699tiger.asp
i've read similar things in a couple biographies of Chennault including Robert L. Scott's
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Thank you, Bunch, you teach me something I didn't know of!
What do these books say about italian involvement in this conflict? Digging around, I discovered that in 1934 a group of italian pilots and officers were sent in China to help forming the chinese air force: but I found no evidence that they actually engaged japanese forces(EDIT though it is likely happened: military counselors often get involved in actual combat). What do you know about it?
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IIRC Robert L. Scott's With Chennault in China[/i] has the most information on this topic, but i get the impression that Scott is a bit willing to sacrifice accuracy for excitement
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Thanks for the info, Bunch.
Err..... pardon my ignorance, what does IIRC mean?