Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Am0n on September 21, 2001, 08:11:00 AM
-
I was flying a p47(30) last night and finnaly learned what i had a nack at, i really love the way this plane flies. At high atl this plane is a very deadly weapon, im learning to fight with its inertia and not try to change its trajectory drasticly, seem to loose to much energy otherwise.
One thing i noted is that after comming out of a dive if you hold it level it doesnt bleed speed as fast as other AC.
I have only one issue that i couldnt seem to over come, shaking a P51 that gets on your 6 at 25-30k. I had several dog fights with a good ace "SOFX", hes damn good with that stang. (hats off to you!) He shot me down quiet a few times, i got him a couple. None the less he bested me for the most part.
My question is how would one of you p47 experts handle this situation?[/i] having a p51 crawling up your rear at high alt. You guys got me hookd on this plane, i read all of you guys talking about how good this plane is and when i first flew it i absolutely despised it.. All it took was for me to get that bad boy up to 25-30k and use the tactics you guys preach about to change my mind totaly.
The only time i was able to get him off my six was to use my knowledge of the planes and not my manuevering skills(or lack of lol). the way i shook him was at 30k, when he got 800-900 to me i dove hard into a 0 g dive with WEP, kicked on the dive break at 300 mph and road it down. the pony was comming down hard and when i couldnt pull out, i killed the engine and started pulling up on the stick in light burst until the wings caught and i slowly started to get wind.. checking my six as i roughly leveled out and kicked my engine on i saw a fire ball racing to the earth. We fell for 10-15k, this was my last resort and it worked wonders.
Would any of you P47 aces handled this differently? i know the logical idea is to not let it get that far, dont let them get on your 6 but sometime its going to happen. What are some manuevers that the p47 excells at?
I was able to rack of more kills last night in this plane than i ever have. Im just going to have to get used to hereing spits and N1Ks say "Amon stop running and fight".. im sure you guys are :)
Thanks for all your help guys, i really apprietciate it, not just on answering this post but all your replies to the countless pleas for help.
[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
-
Most of the Planes or Pilots that were shot down in WWII never saw there attacker.
Remember, Dog Fighting is a " LAST RESORT". When each person does not have any Advantage over the Enemy.
Little thing that I some times uses, when in an attack with a P-51D and a 109, and P-47, is to keep my clime meter fixed on 1, or 0.5 well turning into your enemy. Within no time, some pilots do not take notice that they are really lossing Alt in the Dog Fight, because of the very tight Turns they do. This enable you to have too options, one to continue with the dog fight or Run for your life.
If you're not dead U have not lost the battle. If you're falling to the ground in a big fire ball, you have lost the battle.
-
To further the topic a bit, I have flown the P47 and the P51 and loved it. The P47 is really good at blowing away planes in just one pass when swooping in from hi alts... :D
But I personally find that at lower alts the P51 is easier to, if not get a kill in, run away for your life in. Anyone have any tips on what tactics a P47 can use at lower alts (under 10K)?
-
Hammer head
from what i have learned vrs most other air craft in a p47 below 10k you are a sitting duck, dont let them on your six for nothing. IF they are higher, when you see them slightly nose down and crank up the WEP to get speed, the p47 has a tremendously powerful WEP.. If they are closing, dive, dive, dive and get the hell away from them. Your at a HUGE disadvantage at that ALT in a p47, its designed to fly@250mph cruizing and very high altitude. chances of survival are slim to none IMO.
To ensure that this doesnt happen i always take off in the opposite direction of enemy territory and gain AT least 10k heading away so when i turn back buy the time i am where i took off from im atleast at 20k and as you know that AC really shines then.
-
Amon,
Your not describing any specific tactics either way....were you co alt...co-e...what type of merge did you/he use. At that alt the jug should be a decent match for pony (correct me here if i'm wrong)...but if you take the fight down at all the edge goes to the pony...25k and under pony...26-30k even...over 30k the jug should win.
At high speed the use of flaps is a key issue for both....using 1 notch at the right time can give you a big edge...I'd say at the alt you mentioned the jug should outperform the pony in the vertical...as long as you keep the fight going up you'll be fine
-
Energy states and fuel loads are very important in a situation like that. If the E states are close to equal, and I've got a light fuel load I'll turnfight a pony at that alt. If I've got more than about 50% main tank left, I don't think I'd chance it.
The bottom line with the P47 vs. the Pony is that they are both E fighters. The problem is the Pony retains E better than the Jug. That means you better start with an advantage if you expect to win. The Pony is just too similar in terms of performance for you to expect to beat one unless you start with an E advantage.
Now given you've got a Pony on your 6 at that point, your solution can work well. However, I would be more inclined to use a defensive spiral at that point. In a tight max-G descending spiral, the Jug is going to bleed speed/E much faster than the Pony, so it's a good choice to force an overshoot. Given your altitude though, you might not want to take the fight lower. The rest is going to depend on the situation, but with a Pony camped out on your six you will need to try some move that will force an overshoot if you want to gain the advantage.
-
Lephturn
Would you mind helping me out on that manuever you just described? Like exactly the steps control wise you would go through to pull that off, the stick movements. i would really appreitciate it if you could.
It sounds good in therory but i wouldnt know exactly how to apply it.
-
NM on the decline spiral, i figured that one out after i thought about it. Just a standard flat turn, but its not flat, its ascending or descending. Is this correct anyone?
-
Sorry Amon, I've been busy. :)
A defensive spiral is a downward turn. If you drew a picture of it in 3D, it would look like a corkscrew.
Hmmm... OK first you might want to read this:
http://www.propsim.com/wb-training/worr-guns-defense.html (http://www.propsim.com/wb-training/worr-guns-defense.html)
(You may notice my name in there. :) That was back when I was learning from Master Worr in the old days.)
The defensive spiral is, in essence, a sucker move. That means two things: 1. You will die learning it and when to use it. 2. It only works if you time it right and the other guy falls for it. If he doesn't, you are in deep, deep trouble.
What you want to do is try to get your attacker so focussed on shooting you, that he screws up and overshoots. Now you are also going to basically try a "judo throw", and use your attacker's greater energy against him. Lets assume a bogey is on your six, and he has more speed (hence more energy) and is closing for a shot, but not closing so fast that he'll overshoot. That's best, but even if he's saddled up on your six, this can still work. You start a nose low turn in whatever direction your plane turns best. Assuming you are below your best cornering speed, you will want to turn nose low enough that your plane picks up some speed. This is tricky, and it depends on the bad guy's position, but you may not want to pull as hard as possible at first, you want to get up just above your best corner speed first if you have time. Now you have started a diving turn that is fairly steep, the next step is to pull right to the edge of blackout and hold it there. You will need to keep turning with your nose low enough that your plane stays at it's best corner speed. If you find yourself too fast, cut throttle as well. The hard part is to watch the bogey at the same time. Unless he is paying attention, he will likely accellerate faster than he wants, and he will close rapidly. If he is very close to you, you may want to pop flaps and/or chop throttle to help force him out in front of you, but try not to slow down too much, you want to maintain good turn performance and enough speed to nail him if you can later. When he overshoots, you must then either extend by diving away to his blind side, or if you can roll in behind him for a shot. If you time it right you can shoot him as he passes you simply by relaxing your pull. If you need to displace your flight path to get behind him, a lag displacement roll will do the trick. By that I mean, if he is overshooting in a left hand turn, as he overshoots, you can execute a barrel roll to the right which will move your flight path from inside of his turn, to outside of it, in lag persuit. The hard part is timing this move correctly. If you relax your turn too early, he's got you. Too late and he may adjust his flight path in time to stay behind you.
The really hard part is maintaining max turn performance while decending and still watching the bogey. It's not easy. The worst part is, the enemy can defeat this very easily... he just has to back off and wait for you to finish. If he is smart enough to not try and pull lead for a shot in this situation, he can maintain the advantage and set you up for another shot when you finish. However, you can delay getting killed with this move certainly, and also use it to move the fight lower. Also if the bogey backs off a bit to avoid an overshoot, it may give you enough separation to try escaping if your plane's performance will permit that.
Always remember though... this is a sucker move. It only works if he doesn't realise what is happening. If he does realise it, it's pretty easy to counter. Also, when you see your attacker back off into lag pursuit or just pull off a bit instead of following you in this move... the guy you are fighting is a good stick, so if you get the chance, run like hell! :D
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
-
NP lephturn, i figure your kind enough to put up with my annoying rookie questions. I can wait.
But all of this is forieng to me, ive never in my life played a flight sim. So i bother you people all day in hopes that i can learn to be a comprable opponent.
Ive not focused on turn fighters at all in the passed month of playing, last night i hop in a SpitV for a few hours and average 3-5 kills a sortie. Gimme a F4(best BnZ for me) and im lucky to get a kill every 2 hours. I hate turn fighting, its not much fun to me, but neither is dieing constantly in a BnZer. I tell you this though, it sure was nice to watch the LA7s turn tail and run from me for once.. :D lol
I think i get the jist of what your saying Lephturn, the enemy is comming in faster then you are so as you loose alt and gain speed hes gaining even more speed thus making it harder to, A: keep from blacking out, or B: keep you in sight. So he'll either end up making blind turns or bugging out giving you a chance to make your move on him.
Funny how these simple things work, when i first heard how to scissor i thought "this will never work!" "to easy". I had my first attempt at using it in battle (great place tp learn eh?). Using my Rookie luck i was able to pull it off and left a Spit and a 109 hovering behind me seemingly motionless.
Amazing.
Thanks again lephturn, most appreciated.
-
I have flew p47D30 for some time and being so different plane it changed a lot of how i started to think and plane about fight...
The most borring part is to take that pig to 25-30K.. but once you do it - it worth it.... Jug is a king of alt... However at some point usially fight goes low and having not the top speeder at your hands it may be a big problem.... and the biggest will be your acceleration compared to all Spits, La7, N1Ks...
The only way Icould deal with them is to try to make them overshoot and once successfull i would go for a leading shoot as they loop to get on my six again... Often it means you would have to open fire at 700-900 yards... For me it does not sounds reallistic but it works... Given huge ammo load it pays and given tons of practice <Drex> it pays even more... Surviving in such conditions would be a close to mirracle, but killing your foe would be thing that makes you jump and screem - huraaahaahahamuhaha :)
Also 1 thing to remmember would be slow speed handling... and p47 knows how to do that just fine... it will hover around banking to the left and right when most planes panckace on the ground.... Stall fighting is very fun to do also in jug...
YOu might want to talk to Drex - lead shoot, and Grunherz - stall fighting...
I am sure that the will help you master those tasks..
And me? hope to see you low and slow in jug m8e :)
-
Lately I have found that when someone is on your 6 and closing, but still just out of guns range, a massive decceleration maneuver can work wonders!
For example, 51 is on my 6 I will go chop throttle, enter a barrel roll to dump speed but probably nose low drop as many notches of flaps as u can. A good pilot will either Zoom above you, or, if he clues in early enough try and match you to stay on your six.
If he zooms, retract flaps and floor it to get some speed back asap, and extend towards friendlies.
If timed right this should result in an overshoot most of the time. In these cases net lag actually works in your favour, as your opponent won't even see that you have chopped until you have already slowed by a nice margin.
Just something to try as a last ditch
SKurj
-
Dmitry
You are correct, my biggest problem in the p47 series is i have to go down low to get into the action, but if i dont i spend hours flying around @ high altitude and end up getting killed but someone who snuck up on me. shame on me.
Im a horrible BnZ fighter, i dont have the patients for it at all. It seems every single time i dive on someone they move before i get there blowing my shot and im ignorant and persue them. If not persuing them i get bored of zooming for 2 minutes after a failed pass to get alt and make a stupid/rookie move.. ugh!
Even bigger problem for me is that i love to BnZ even though im no good at it.. I can turn fight all night (in a turn fighter) and rack up kills but i hate it. ugly huh?
After zooming in on someone and making a attack, how would you flee? say you were down around 5k after falling from 10k, would you level out and ride out your speed for a while or imediately nose up for alt? or slightly nose up the whole time?
Whats the most effective (E conserving) way to turn around for another zoom? I know this varies for different planes, but i only fly american AC (nothing personal to anyone out side the US, just the patriot in me. Good thing im not from Italy i would be REALLY limited to what i would fly in AH :) )
normaly i "Immelmann" (how ever you say it) to turn around a F4 or P47 for another boom on a lower alt target. is there a more energy efficant way to do this?
[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
-
I'm a huge P-47D-30 fan. The best way to BnZ with it is carefully pick your target and make sure they're about 5-8k below you try to keep your speed below 450 or you might compress a bit. If they start to turn it's not the end of the world, jame full throttle and WEP and zoome 70 degrees - straight up and level out gain some speed and do it again. Patience is a virtue in BnZ cause if you try turning more than 90 degrees or waste your energy by being impatient your screwed. If you don't like the situation disengage and if you have the ammo/fuel extend and climb back up again and make some moer passes. Remember if you are on a target and they begin to turn try to turn for 90degrees or less and then zoom up. The few shots you get should be more than enought with your 8 .50cals. It took me a while to learn how to BnZ right but it payed off. Just remember speed and altitude is life in the P-47 always maintain an alt and speed advantage our you'll easily be someones lunch.
<S!> and good luck trying these tactics.
Oh and don't get dicouraged, flying the P-47 can be a bit hard just keep trying and you'll get it.
~Soviet
[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Soviet ]
-
Soviet
thanks for the info, finnaly someone puts it in plain english and not pilot-tech-geek-speak.. wew :D
When you zoom in on someone 5k below, 2 questions, what angle do you dive if say you are 6 of them. And also what % throttle (if you use it at all) do you use when zooming in on someone.
I always seem to come in to fast, could be a big part of my problem BnZing.
thx again bud
-
They key to retaining maximum energy in that boom and zoom situation is to pull minimal G's in the pull-up into the zoom. That is, don't pull quickly upwards and hit 6 G's during the pull-up, that will bleed a ton of energy. You want to do a nice smooth pull-up into the zoom that does not exceed about 3 G's. A nice smooth pull up that doesn't vary the G load much is your best transition into the zoom, and will retain maximum energy. Oh, and be sure to have Combat Trim enabled to keep you in trim during these large speed changes.
-
Lephturn
How do you read your Gs? the only indicator i could refer to is the "climb" meter.
One of these days ill figure out how and when to manualy trim. is there any cases where one could possibly bennifit from manual trim?
As always thank you Lephturn, you are a great help. I think the p47 is the only AC i have a positive K/D ratio in :cool:
*could be wrong though* lol
[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
-
NM on the G status, i found it buy looking in the resources on the AH web page.
Still clueless about trim. (when and what to adjust it to for certain situations)
Ohh i was wrong about the kill to death ratio to! i have none that are 1:1 :mad: :mad:
-
Too bad we can't feel G's like a real pilot. I fly acro some, and it's pretty easy to tell when you exceed 3 G's. Going over 4 is very noticeable. Going past 5 is extremely uncomfortable.
A question on the P-47: doesn't it have a better roll rate than the P-51? If so, then isn't that a potential edge for flat scissors in a dive?
[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: 54Ed ]
-
54Ed, not sure about the roll rate. It will very likely depend on speed and flaps condition. The 47 rolls very well though, so I'm inclined to think the Jug would have a slight advantage here, but not much of one.
Am0n,
The G meter is on your dashboard. If you are flying the P47, just leave combat trim on, and don't worry about the manual trim. The only time you might need it is at very low speeds, and if that is the case you may need some manual nose-up trim. You don't want to get a Jug into a low speed fight like that anyway... I won't worry about it if I were you. Let CT handle it, fly within your envelope, and you'll do fine. Spend your time learning ACM and E management, those will pay off big. Once you hold a 2:1 K/D over a tour, then think about manual trim. :)
-
Lephturn
Good idea, starting to get the hang of energy management. I used to give up my alt advantage constantly buy "chasing the red boxes" (lack of better terms). Been playing mind numbing 3d shooters since they were invented, used to going right at the enemy full blast always.
The transition is great, learning somehting new is always a blast when its fun. So far i have 4 friends who were X-die-hard-3dshooter gamers who have abandoned there games for AH when i showed them how great it was.
I find that hovering over enemies high drives them nuts and makes them eventual climb hard to get you.. doom on them! bad move.
the p47-11 has more than spoiled me, all i need now is to get my mechanic to put some rear veiw mirrors in the darned thing. I tried to fly the 30 again, been a while and at 20k+250mph making a very slow flat turn.. stall stall stall.. dive to 300mph continue turning.. stall.. stall stall.. dead.
Im going to stick to the primarily to the hell cat for now, i think i should master one air craft. Still will have to fly the jug though, cant give up those 8 50s!!
thanks for all your help bud.