Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sled on March 12, 2005, 12:12:27 AM
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Union Brothers, Stand (post) and be reconized!:aok
Ken S. (aka Sled)
Journeyman Power Lineman
IBEW LU 1547
Anchorage, AK
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I see a bleak future for this thread.
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maybe SOB, But there is only one way to find out.
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Originally posted by SOB
I see a bleak future for this thread.
No doubt.
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Originally posted by SOB
I see a bleak future for this thread.
I see a bleak future for SOB... poor bastard has almost nothing going for him. :)
Cheers!
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Why you smilin' all of a sudden Nuke?
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Thanks for the punts guys, Lets keep it right at the top.
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Unions are legalised, organised crime. They are absolutely traceable to the downfall of American industrial superiority by their terroristic attack on corporations, causing the economically unsupported increase in wages that has led to our products and skills being uncompetitive in the world market.
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ROFLMAO
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http://www.walmart.com
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LOL, here's a better link for wal-mart
Wal-Mart, good for America? (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/)
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we may very well be the only 2 union men on this board. if there are any more they've been keeping a low profile for the last 5 or 6 years.
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Anti-union man!
(http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/1/17/Andrew_Carnegie.jpg)
Union man...
(http://www.nndb.com/people/112/000032016/hoffa-sr.jpg)
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Is the war starting again?
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Funny thing is, I believe what I said.
Of course there are no absolutes. Good can turn into bad, but it's very hard to turn bad back into good.
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I worked in a closed shop once. Was employed there for about three years without paying any dues or initiation. In other words, I paid them every penny they were worth to me. The only real cost to me was having to periodically talk to the weasely union rep hitting me up for money and threatening to have me canned if I didn't pay up.
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Unions...LOL Only thing more worthy of a chuckle from me is a mason.
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You guys going to use lures or bait?
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You're still here?
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^^ Yellow check mark = Yes
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Originally posted by SOB
I worked in a closed shop once. Was employed there for about three years without paying any dues or initiation. In other words, I paid them every penny they were worth to me. The only real cost to me was having to periodically talk to the weasely union rep hitting me up for money and threatening to have me canned if I didn't pay up.
My experience was worse. First gig out of the USAF I went to work for the Denver Coca Cola plant. Closed shop, worse they just automatically payroll deduct the union tariff (Teamsters).
I was given no choice, never saw a union rep, never saw any tangible benefit for this larceny.
Plus, it happened the Teamsters local office was one of my accounts. I was there regularly. Friggin' place was a ghost town, I rarely met a human while there, just checked my vending machine and left. Looked like a screw-shack, for sure as an office it was a sham, nothing going on.
The experience left me with a negative attitude towards unions. If this is typical, it not only ought not to be allowed by law (the closed shop crap) but oughta be prosecuted for fraud, IMO.
culero
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the gunfight at the end of Matewan[/i] is amongst the best
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I live in a right to work state and believe in "choice" which most unions do not. I support the local union in "local matters". Now when it comes to state and national politics we butt heads. I believe labor unions are organized crime and should be castrated and put back in their place. The AFL-CIO is bad enough but labor unions are on a different planet.
Instrument 1
IBEW Local 612
Wheatland, WY
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I had the pleasure of negotiating with both the IBEW and the Steelworkers in the early 80's.
In the IBEW case in St. Louis, the union workers on the floor sabotaged $18 million worth of custom engineered equipment being manufactured as a 'pre-bargaining' warning. I shut the plant down and put 230 people out of work while moving the product line to another facitlity. Only moved 3 people to the new facility after they spent 3 months in the field repairing the shipped equipment.
Never had a problem with the IBEW after that.
In the Steelworkers case, I was trying to turn around a factory in Chicago that had been losing money for 3 years - for no reason other than complacency by a workforce with an average of 27 years seniority.
Had a million dollar bottom line turnaround in first year by working with the local union to establish some work and production incentives that would pay those who produced, and not pay so well those who didn't want to produce. Everything was going fine until... the national union guys decided they wanted a big raise (more union dues) so they sent a 'negotiator' to deal with the big bad management - me.
We were already paying $6 more per hour than our competitors and had an offer laying on the table to move the facility to North Carolina. NC would help finance construction, pay for employee training, subsidize wages on a graduated scale for 3 years and defer local property taxes for 5 years if we moved the factory. I resisted out of loyality to the employees who worked hard to help make the plant profitable again.
As I sat at the table across from the national union guy and the local shop rep ( a single mother with 2 kids), the Steelworker big shot laid out his demands for 20% across the board increases and a no layoffs contract for 3 years. of course, I said no.
Union guy says they'll strike and the local rep smirked.
I looked at the local rep and explained that after your strike benefits are up, you'll have to find another place to work and the union bigshot will simply go back to New York and collect his salary.
It was a losing battle. The union big shot filled the union workers full of "brothers and sisters solidarity" stuff at the union meeting that night. They bought it hook, line and sinker and vowed to strike.
The factory was moved, the workers lost their jobs, the union guy went back to New York and I ended my career as a turnaround specialist. I couldn't stomach it any more.
Union brothers...
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I'm in a Union. Be daft not to be.
Think maybe the history of Unions in this country is different to the US. Our Unions were developed to protect workers from extrodinary exploitation.
I don't recall them becoming embroiled in the kind of protectionism and organised crime that seems to have influenced Unions in the US. Corruption at times maybe. But on Balance better to have organisations looking out for workers rights than trusting in the not so benevalent bosses to do it for us.
We had a govt during the 80s that attempted to crush Unions. ( good old Maggie) In doing so she also crushed our manufacturing base. Coal industry and squandered our oil revenue paying unemployment benefit to over 3 million people. Thank god she's gone but we still live with the damage done.
"There is Power in a Union"
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Rolex gave a couple of great examples of tragically poor union leadership, and others probably abound. Its really unfortunate, because what SkyDancer says is true I think.
I give credit to unions and the GI Bill following WWII for swelling the ranks of the American middle class. But I can see how people would be of the mind that unions got too powerful, esp in the US auto, airline, and steel industries.
Its too bad because the alternative to no unions will be experiences like those suffered by workers in the Phillippines, Indonesia and China.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I'm in a Union. Be daft not to be.
Think maybe the history of Unions in this country is different to the US. Our Unions were developed to protect workers from extrodinary exploitation.
I don't recall them becoming embroiled in the kind of protectionism and organised crime that seems to have influenced Unions in the US. Corruption at times maybe. But on Balance better to have organisations looking out for workers rights than trusting in the not so benevalent bosses to do it for us.
We had a govt during the 80s that attempted to crush Unions. ( good old Maggie) In doing so she also crushed our manufacturing base. Coal industry and squandered our oil revenue paying unemployment benefit to over 3 million people. Thank god she's gone but we still live with the damage done.
"There is Power in a Union"
I've been a unionist for a fair while, and the unions I've been in aren't run like the american ones it seems.
When Ansett airlines went bust due to complete corporate incompetence, it was the unions which managed to get part of our redundancies out of the mess that was left, instead of the workers always been last to recieve anything from the carcass of a corporate collapse.
Tronsky
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believe it or not I am in a union. My guys all are and I don't think it is fair for me to not pay into it.
I am not your "brother" any more than the guys who dressed up like bikers in the 70's were my "bro's".
I would much rather see a negotiating unit and a employment relations lawyer on retainer by the employees. The HR department in most companies and cities these days is the company version of those things. The company should pay as much for the employee version as they pay for their own POS HR toady.
lazs
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Originally posted by Rolex
snip
The factory was moved, the workers lost their jobs, the union guy went back to New York and I ended my career as a turnaround specialist. I couldn't stomach it any more.
Union brothers...
Yeah.
On a side note, kudos. The business negotiation is an art, and I admire a man who realizes the value of that ;)
culero (in the middle of a company/contractor negotiation right now that's a real hoot)
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I was in ALPA for many years.
I said from the first and I say now "The only thing worse than a Union is no Union."
Which came first? Bad, unjust, unsafe management or Unions?
Duh.
It's a pendulum. There is a point where Unions are bad and out of control. There is a point where Management is bad and out of control. The pendulum started with Management being bad and out of control. For every case Rolex can post of bad, stupid Union decisions, there are probably twice as many of bad, stupid Managment decisions.
It's all about greed, chums. Both Management and Unions are susceptible to it. Without Unions, there is no counterbalance to Management greed; the balancing force is Union greed.
There is no win/win here; there are only varying degrees of lose/lose.
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Originally posted by oboe
Rolex gave a couple of great examples of tragically poor union leadership, and others probably abound. Its really unfortunate, because what SkyDancer says is true I think.
I give credit to unions and the GI Bill following WWII for swelling the ranks of the American middle class. But I can see how people would be of the mind that unions got too powerful, esp in the US auto, airline, and steel industries.
Its too bad because the alternative to no unions will be experiences like those suffered by workers in the Phillippines, Indonesia and China.
My stated experience with US unionism aside, I agree.
culero
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Originally posted by lazs2
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The company should pay as much for the employee version as they pay for their own POS HR toady.
lazs
I'm a truly fortunate man.
I actually work for a fairly large (nationwide) corporation that has HR both at corporate and local level who truly represent the best interest of both company and employee. They do business as business should be done, in a completely fair and even-handed fashion. Both policy and practice are in alignment, and all by specific intent of corporate management.
Sounds too good to be true, but it is, in every detail. Its always my pleasure to see my HR guy in the office, get his e-mails, etc. I love it.
culero (no union needed here)
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Just as a pendulum ultimately comes to rest in the middle, you'd think that eventually labor/management relations would realize a stable, middling course would be better for both parties in the long run.
But all to often someone comes along a gives the pendulum a big shove. And I agree with Toad, greed is the prime motivator.
I think Lazs' idea has some merit, except that to expect a lawyer to negotiate in good faith on behalf of the employees, the lawyer must be paid by the employees - otherwise its a case of hiring a fix to guard the hen house.
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Originally posted by oboe
snip
I think Lazs' idea has some merit, except that to expect a lawyer to negotiate in good faith on behalf of the employees, the lawyer must be paid by the employees - otherwise its a case of hiring a fix to guard the hen house.
Yes but.
What you describe could/might be an example of a union...as it should be.
We in America tend to have problems with our government and our unions for the EXACT same reason - we allow power to be gathered at too central of a level (for convenience's sake, mostly, unfortunately).
Ross Perot said it best in his first campaign - if you want to know what's wrong with your government (I add "union" here) go look in the mirror.
Politics both public and private serve those in subject best when the subjects take direct control and maintain constant involvement. Power To The People! :)
culero
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oh, meant 'fox' not 'fix' but I'm sure you understood what I meant.
Those are very populist sentiments, Culero. I voted for Perot.
If you could skim the center-leaning 50% off of each party and create a new party in the middle, you might wind up with a superparty that could rarely be defeated. After a while that wouldn't be so good, but it sure would be satisfying to see the real 'middle' America get representation solely for themselves and not have to put up with the extreme fringes demands as they so often do.
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I'm one employee away from Unionizing my shop (Western Graphic Arts Union Local 14) cause it requires three employees.
I worked for years with police and fire fighters Unions, and one of my brothers (real one, not a Union one) is the Director of Litigation for the American Federation of Government Employees.
I am, proudly, pro Union and feel they're the last bastion of the middle class.
Sled for bringing it up.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Think maybe the history of Unions in this country is different to the US. Our Unions were developed to protect workers from extrodinary exploitation.
Why, but of course! Your Unions were formed for noble purposes while our Unions were formed by criminals wanting to make a buck!
Is it possible for you to make a post that ISN'T critical of the USA?
:rolleyes:
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Go look at the thread on Iranian Protesters! Credit due to US. But hey I'm not criticising the US. I'm merely pointing out that your unions appeared to go through a corrupt phase. as infact did ours. Just the architects of the corruption were different. Not one better than the other.
Lose the Paranoia! The world doesn't hate the US. We just don't like your Pres ;) The rest of you guys are OK.
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Originally posted by oboe
snip
If you could skim the center-leaning 50% off of each party and create a new party in the middle, you might wind up with a superparty that could rarely be defeated. After a while that wouldn't be so good, but it sure would be satisfying to see the real 'middle' America get representation solely for themselves and not have to put up with the extreme fringes demands as they so often do.
Word, brother.
culero
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Originally posted by Airhead
I'm one employee away from Unionizing my shop (Western Graphic Arts Union Local 14) cause it requires three employees.
I worked for years with police and fire fighters Unions, and one of my brothers (real one, not a Union one) is the Director of Litigation for the American Federation of Government Employees.
I am, proudly, pro Union and feel they're the last bastion of the middle class.
Sled for bringing it up.
If you're saying you have experience with current unions that are good in characteristics rather then exploitive, I am truly glad to hear it.
I support the union concept, just not what my life experience has shown me is current application of that concept here in the US.
Its kinda like capital punishment - I want it, I just don't trust the administrators to apply it with justice.
culero (but that's another thread, eh? :))
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Go look at the thread on Iranian Protesters!
Lose the Paranoia!
So coming to the painfully obvious conclusion you have a bias against America- based upon what you've said about us under a couple of different shades accounts, countless times- is paranoia??
I think having to use shades accounts shows paranoia, and refusing to admit you were Zulu7 shows inherent dishonesty is a large part of your character...or lack thereof.
I hope people consider the source when reading your anti American drivel...I know I will from now on.
:aok
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Culero, my motives are as selfish (well, more so actually) as they are noble. If I have a Union bug I can bid on political and State work, which is pretty lucrative....plus political work is all C.O.D.
But I also wish to grow a business that provides careers for people, not just jobs.
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I've seen more than a few examples of what rolex was talking about with the National Union rep spoiling a good thing for the local guys.
Almost every single time the guy at the National level really didn't care about the local guys they just wanted a bigger cut or to stirr up the pot were they don't belong.
More often than not this means a factory or such is no longer a profitable venture and instead of all these great benifits the national guy promised them the local guys get an unemployment check instead.
Meanwhile the national guy is on a plane heading to his next disaster and still on a payroll.
I heard about an entire factory that moved to Texas to get away from the Unions because they were killing them. All was well, people were happy, the plant was making money.......until the Union showed up and shut the place down.
I'm not saying Unions are all bad, some go along ways to protect workers rights and provide good benifits. Mostly though I think they really don't care about the workers....just the union.
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Airhead. The Zulu war ended ages ago! Move along please.
This sniping and griping just stifles the discussion. If you don't want to respond to me don't. Simple realy.
respect is due for
"But I also wish to grow a business that provides careers for people, not just jobs."
To my mind that makes you more than just one of "the bosses"
Now have a good weekend won't you.
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I DID respond to you- you called me paranoid, and I pointed out your behavior is more paranoid than mine- I've had this ID for a long, long time, through good and bad, thick and thin- and I've eaten my share of crow here without feeling the need to change IDs for a "fresh start."
Now have a nice day. :)
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Originally posted by Airhead
But I also wish to grow a business that provides careers for people, not just jobs.
Airhead, if you own the business, you can do that with or without a union.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Airhead, if you own the business, you can do that with or without a union.
True Stringer, but the benefits to me as a business owner is the additional market having the bug opens up. Also if I hire through the Hall I know the employees will be more skilled and qualified than hiring off the street.
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I am proud to say that I am a Union member and a executive board member of my local, I have watched my company deal with employee's thru the years and we have a good relationship with our management. I have noticed that the presence of the contract has made things more constent for all employee's if the company has a favorite son they have to put them in mangament ortherwise they have to be treated the same as all of us. the local members make or break their union, some are better than others It's llike anything else It's what you make it.:) :cool:
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Originally posted by Rolex
I had the pleasure of negotiating with both the IBEW and the Steelworkers in the early 80's.
In the IBEW case in St. Louis, the union workers on the floor sabotaged $18 million worth of custom engineered equipment being manufactured as a 'pre-bargaining' warning. I shut the plant down and put 230 people out of work while moving the product line to another facitlity. Only moved 3 people to the new facility after they spent 3 months in the field repairing the shipped equipment.
Never had a problem with the IBEW after that.
In the Steelworkers case, I was trying to turn around a factory in Chicago that had been losing money for 3 years - for no reason other than complacency by a workforce with an average of 27 years seniority.
Had a million dollar bottom line turnaround in first year by working with the local union to establish some work and production incentives that would pay those who produced, and not pay so well those who didn't want to produce. Everything was going fine until... the national union guys decided they wanted a big raise (more union dues) so they sent a 'negotiator' to deal with the big bad management - me.
We were already paying $6 more per hour than our competitors and had an offer laying on the table to move the facility to North Carolina. NC would help finance construction, pay for employee training, subsidize wages on a graduated scale for 3 years and defer local property taxes for 5 years if we moved the factory. I resisted out of loyality to the employees who worked hard to help make the plant profitable again.
As I sat at the table across from the national union guy and the local shop rep ( a single mother with 2 kids), the Steelworker big shot laid out his demands for 20% across the board increases and a no layoffs contract for 3 years. of course, I said no.
Union guy says they'll strike and the local rep smirked.
I looked at the local rep and explained that after your strike benefits are up, you'll have to find another place to work and the union bigshot will simply go back to New York and collect his salary.
It was a losing battle. The union big shot filled the union workers full of "brothers and sisters solidarity" stuff at the union meeting that night. They bought it hook, line and sinker and vowed to strike.
The factory was moved, the workers lost their jobs, the union guy went back to New York and I ended my career as a turnaround specialist. I couldn't stomach it any more.
Union brothers...
You are my hero!
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Why is he your hero Grun? Because he stood up to the union's demands to the point of moving the factory away? Or because he had enough of a conscience to leave his career after having to do something he found so distasteful?
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Originally posted by oboe
Why is he your hero Grun? Because he stood up to the union's demands to the point of moving the factory away? Or because he had enough of a conscience to leave his career after having to do something he found so distasteful?
Depends on who is asking and how they are asking. Both are admirable deeds.
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The answer to the question depends on who is doing the asking?
Sounds like something Kane's master would tell him...
But I think "both" is quite a fair answer.
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:) Just having some some fun and seei g where this thread will go considering the original poster also had this in mind.
Yea I think both were the right thing to do.
On one hand I think managers have every legal and moral right to persue the survival and growth of their business in the best way possible if the union machinery is taking things too far and pressuring them too much.
Unfortunatly it sometimes happens that the working union members are hurt very badly when this comes to a head and the business closes shop.
It seems Rolex was not comfortable with this so he stoppedc playing the game and did something else..
Still, DETH TO UNIONS! <--- Not like they need much moew help doing that to themselves in the USA....
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Unions are legalised, organised crime. They are absolutely traceable to the downfall of American industrial superiority by their terroristic attack on corporations, causing the economically unsupported increase in wages that has led to our products and skills being uncompetitive in the world market.
I agree, and I'm an NEA member. :)
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Originally posted by Rolex
I had the pleasure of negotiating with both the IBEW and the Steelworkers in the early 80's.
In the IBEW case in St. Louis, the union workers on the floor sabotaged $18 million worth of custom engineered equipment being manufactured as a 'pre-bargaining' warning. I shut the plant down and put 230 people out of work while moving the product line to another facitlity.
Ok sparky.
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lazerus. running and hiding is nothing more than BnZ BBcm. get back here and fight!
DWEEB!
:)
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We have to have Unions.
You had a time when there were no Unions. It brought this:
TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FIRE (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_086800_triangleshir.htm)
On March 25, 1911, a fire swept through the Triangle Shirtwaist Company in the Greenwich Village section of New York City, a sweatshop where workers, mostly women, did low-paying piecework in a building with no safety precautions. The blaze killed 146 workers who were trapped by the lack of fire escapes and management's practice of locking all the exits to keep workers from leaving the job for breaks. The factory's owners were indicted, but a jury acquitted them, fanning the outrage over the tragedy.
Oh, wait... that could never happen in these modern times. Now management is so much more enlightened and fair. They would never lock the doors on their employees.
Right?
The Hamlet, N.C., Fire (http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/spring_sum97/hamlet.html)
Last September 3, (1991) a fire broke out near the deep-fat fryer in Imperial’s chicken-processing plant and spread quickly through the one-story building. The plant had no windows and no sprinkler or fire alarm system. And workers who got to the unmarked fire exits found some of them locked from the outside.
Imperial’s management was using the same "loss control" technique as the bosses at Triangle Shirt Waist--and with the same result. Twenty-five of the 90-odd employees working at the time were killed, suffocated by the black smoke that filled the plant, and 55 more were injured.
See, the only effective tool to combat bad management so far has been an equally bad thing called Unions.
Either one alone, you're screwed pal. Both in opposition, you're still screwed but not as deeply.
Believe it.
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There is plenty of corruption on BOTH sides of this fence. Any complaints about union corruption, is a case of the pot calling the kettle BLACK. Fact is, I wish we didn't need unions, and when the day arrives that we can trust corporate America to treat it's workers well. I will be the first in line to abolish them. I won't hold my breath for that.
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Fine post Toad, Thank you
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Toad,
That fire is almost impossible to happen again, especially with the nationwide acceptance of a standardised code for fire suppression and protection. Beyond corporate management, local code enforcement should shoulder just as much blame as the company did in the responsibility for those deaths in 91.
As for unions, the ALPA union is a FAR cry different thatn the Teamsters, UAW, USW, and ALWA are. Those organisations are nothing short of organised racketeering outfits that prey on workers salaries to support their existence. When these same workers struggle to keep afloat, their union hierarchy spends millions to build club houses and amenities available only to union leaders.
Thats bullcaca and we all know it.
You remember all the BS with Delta ramp workers, flight attendants, and mechanics being "lured" all these wonderous incentives to go union. The only ones for it were mostly those guys that worked at one pace, slow, or non existent. The rest of us saw no need to give more salary away. In the same token, had the employees as a whole worked harder on the ground and in the air, and management not been so freaking corrupt (I am still trying to decide who was worse Ron Allen, or Leo Mullins) then Delta would not be in the shape it is in today. I was so tired of these demands for higher wages for my dept when no one wanted to work harder, it was sickening. As for the union lures to get us to join, there was offers of leadership in the new union to those of us that were popular with fellow employees along with cash incentives if we got people to vote for it... naw nothing corrupt there.
As far as I am concerned, most unions have far outlived their usefulness and now are more concerned with union survival then workers rights.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Toad,
As for unions, the ALPA union is a FAR cry different thatn the Teamsters, UAW, USW, and ALWA are. Those organisations are nothing short of organised racketeering outfits that prey on workers salaries to support their existence. When these same workers struggle to keep afloat, their union hierarchy spends millions to build club houses and amenities available only to union leaders.
in that case, lets get rid of management. you know, the ones who do the same thing, but actually give themselves pay raises.
(often in the millions per year, per individual)
excessive practices on either side can grow quickly discusting.
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It's very fair to say that different times, different people and local conditions make a difference in the union question. Some management does stink and some unions stink. Unions that put a company's feet to the fire for illegal employment or safety practices are good guys. Those that think a union's sole pupose is to extort money in any way possible from a company making a good faith effort to stay in business and create goods, services and jobs are bad guys.
As any market matures, earnings drop. When you're working in a 5% (if you're good and lucky) profit industry, unions and management have to be flexible and creative to keep the business alive. The alternative is the business, and eventually the industry, will transform or move. It's hard to reconcile being a free market advocate in a non right-to-work state.
Not every business owner or manager gets up in the morning and drives to work thinking of how they can screw the employees today. Business owners and stockholders that put their money at risk have every right to expect unions to act fairly in the interest of the employee... and the employer.
[added]
An awful lot went on leading up to the closing of the St. Louis factory that I didn't go into. All of it good faith efforts to get production out the door, not reduce wages or benefits.
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Bodhi, I'm not going to defend unions. I'm sure as hell not going to defend management.
I think my statement "The only thing worse than a union is no union" pretty well states the case.
For example, you do realize that ALL of the non-Union DAL workers benefited from ALPA being on the property right?
Many of the things we worked to get were "passed on" to the non-union troops. Family Care Savings being one, ESOP being another, increased medical benefits.. I could go on, but I think you realize what I'm saying and know that it is true.
However, AGAIN, don't take this to mean that I think all Unions are great or even that DAL ALPA was great. They aren't and it wasn't.
They're just better than being totally at the mercy of management.
Anyone can say what they will, but when there is no countervailing force to Management eventually, Management will deliberately take advantage of the workers. Even if the company is all sweetness and light to begin with.
Eventually, someone gets in power that just can't control his urge to f*** (have intercourse with) anyone that is powerless to stop him from doing so.
It's all there in the history of US corporations.
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Originally posted by oboe
Why is he your hero Grun? Because he stood up to the union's demands to the point of moving the factory away? Or because he had enough of a conscience to leave his career after having to do something he found so distasteful?
Because he called the Unions bluff and moved the factory. If Grun could find some way to re-legalize slave labor, he'd do it. Hella profits in slave labor.
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You guys do realize that the argument is pretty much moot. In a couple decades (at most), the Republicans will have successfully crushed any Union still standing, along with demolishing the minimum wage, and any other "entitlement" legislation they can get their hands on. The stratification of American society has been growing since the 70's, but it is picking up pace like gangbusters now.
Lets get some more tax cuts! Well, as long as they are only for people making more than 60 grand a year that is. The stupid sniveling "poor" people don't put enough back into society.. I say they need a big tax hike!
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I sure know how to polarize people. :lol
Bottom line? You have to have a Ying to have a Yang. Can you imagine the world with ONLY a Democratic party? Or ONLY a Repuplican party! YIKES and double YIKES!:eek:
As for paying Union Dues. I'll give you $5000.00 if you give me $200.00. (3% + monthly in my local) Any takers?? If so, you shouldn't have much problem with Union dues.
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Originally posted by SLED
As for paying Union Dues. I'll give you $5000.00 if you give me $200.00. (3% + monthly in my local) Any takers?? If so, you shouldn't have much problem with Union dues.
Yep, you'll get the extra 5k, and you won't work any harder, and will probably get 4 extra breaks a day along with a grievance board to complain to if you get in trouble for drinking on the job....
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Originally posted by Urchin
Because he called the Unions bluff and moved the factory. If Grun could find some way to re-legalize slave labor, he'd do it. Hella profits in slave labor.
We dont need slave labor anymore
We have Mexicans.:p
Unions time has come and gone.
there once was a time when Unions were a good thing. Now they are more a detriment to our society as a whole.
From my observation the current union worker is vastly over paid and underworked. Which in tunr ends updriving up the costs on almost everything we buy from clothes to houses.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
We dont need slave labor anymore
We have Mexicans.:p
Unions time has come and gone.
there once was a time when Unions were a good thing. Now they are more a detriment to our society as a whole.
From my observation the current union worker is vastly over paid and underworked. Which in tunr ends updriving up the costs on almost everything we buy from clothes to houses.
Multinational Monitor: What percentage of the U.S. workforce is unionized?
Kate Bronfenbrenner: Just over 13 percent. The private sector unionization rate is 8.5 percent. Union density in the public sector is 37 percent.
Actually hell.... One biased source. (http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewsbronfenbrenner.html)
Here is another biased source (http://falcon.arts.cornell.edu/ams3/rich1.html) , although this one does not deal so much with Unions as with inequality in general.
And...ANOTHER whoopeeed BIASED SOURCE! (http://www.lcurve.org/) .
Where is Fox News?! Someone call in Fox News! I need some FAIR and BALANCED reporting on this issue! All these dirty commie pinko studmuffins writing stories that AREN'T TRUE!!
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JB88 said
and the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls...
I thought, "The words of the Prophets are written on the Studio walls"
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Originally posted by JB88
lazerus. running and hiding is nothing more than BnZ BBcm. get back here and fight!
DWEEB!
:)
Lemme put up this runhun first.
Last September 3, (1991) a fire broke out near the deep-fat fryer in Imperial’s chicken-processing plant and spread quickly through the one-story building. The plant had no windows and no sprinkler or fire alarm system. And workers who got to the unmarked fire exits found some of them locked from the outside.
Why is a union needed to avoid this situation? I'm pretty sure this factory was in severe violation of federal safety codes. The inspectors that allowed this place to remain open and operate should be tried for manslaughter.
Originally posted by JB88
in that case, lets get rid of management. you know, the ones who do the same thing, but actually give themselves pay raises.
(often in the millions per year, per individual)
excessive practices on either side can grow quickly discusting(disgusting).
I agree that excessive salaries for upper level executives is a serious problem in many companies that put an undue strain on those companies ability to compete, just as excessive salaries for unionized employees due the same.
How to change the upper level problem while staying inside the ideology of a capitalistic system is an interesting question.
The same question applied to the draining of a companies profitability by the unions is a little easier. The only problem is, will upper level execs then absorb the freed up monies in their own salaries, or use the capital to become more competetive. The open market should take care of that.
Ultimately, the ideal would be a union that looks after the employees and the company. Making unions only able to be formed on a more local level might be a step in the right direction.
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honestly lazerus...i think that it begins with social change. when the pain of being criminal exceeds the pain of reducing ones requirements for good service to thier fellow men.
we still havent had a very good debate about this issue as a society, (imho) but i think that it would go miles towards at least bringing it into check if we did.
we should be prosecuting white collar criminals for breaking the law just as often as we do with blue collar folks...
when there is enough public outcry...things change...of course, they grow bad again and have to be pruned ...eventually.
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Originally posted by JB88
honestly lazerus...i think that it begins with social change. when the pain of being criminal exceeds the pain of reducing ones requirements for good service to thier fellow men.
we still havent had a very good debate about this issue as a society, (imho) but i think that it would go miles towards at least bringing it into check if we did.
we should be prosecuting white collar criminals for breaking the law just as often as we do with blue collar folks...
when there is enough public outcry...things change...of course, they grow bad again and have to be pruned ...eventually.
wow, that is the most intelligent thing I have ever heard you say....
Who are you and what have you done with JB88.
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lol.
still here. : )
;)
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Bohdi got off a reply before I could regain consciousness and climb back into my chair:p
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it really wouldnt be so shocking if all of you pin heads werent fixated on my sexy writing tone.
:p
my work here is done.
:)
nahhhh...not really.
;)
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Why is a union needed to avoid this situation? I'm pretty sure this factory was in severe violation of federal safety codes. The inspectors that allowed this place to remain open and operate should be tried for manslaughter.
I'm sure you realize you answered your own question.
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No doubt Toad
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I did. There is no need for a union in this situation. There is a need for enforcement of the codes that are in place to ensure a safe work environment. A call to OSHA from an employee could have prevented that tragedy. I see no need to pay someone to make that call for me.
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Grun, it's a BS story. ;)
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Originally posted by Lazerus
A call to OSHA from an employee could have prevented that tragedy.
In its eleven years of operation, the poultry plant had never been inspected for health and safety violations.
The workers at Imperial knew that the doors were locked and that there were frequent fires in the fryer area. However, workers were afraid to report these abuses.
They feared, with good reason, that they would be fired for registering a complaint with the Occupational Safety & Health Administration , (OSHA).
This silence born of fear -deliberately instilled by management and exacerbated by government inaction -was another cause of the needless loss of life at Imperial.
In the ideal world, you'd be right.
But the ideal world does not exist and never has. That's why Unions were formed to begin with.
That fire has been pretty thoroughly investigated.
The majority of Imperial’s workers were poor women--and many were single mothers--who worked at or slightly above the minimum wage. Most of them probably had no idea that Imperial was breaking the law and that there was a government agency to which they could complain.
If you were a poor single mother, would you have complained with the risk of losing you job in an area without any other jobs to be had?
That's real world.
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Where's OneWordAnswer when you need him.
anonymity
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In its eleven years of operation, the poultry plant had never been inspected for health and safety violations.
[/SIZE]
Again, the person(s) responsible for inspecting that plant should be tried for manslaughter.
There is a system in place to prevent this type of thing. There is no reason to install a redundant system.
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You would rely on the Government to insure the safety of YOUR Mom or Sister working in that plant! Why would they? They have no vested interest in those people. If we ever move to Zanadu maybe it will work the way you purpose. Untill then I want a Union watching over my familys safety.
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To add, OSHA is so over worked! it can't possibly keep up with the work it needs to perform. Even if they could, it's the GOVERMENT! Far from a well oiled machine.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
There is a system in place to prevent this type of thing. There is no reason to install a redundant system.
The system doesn't work. Even OSHA admits it doesn't have enough inspectors and can't do the job.
That isn't going to change.
Again, you're argument is "In a perfect world....".
Hey... it AIN'T a perfect world. It's never going to be.
In a perfect world, you wouldn't have management that locks the exit doors.
That's why you have Unions. If you remove Unions, you'll have more Triangle Shirtwaist and Imperial Chicken fires... and a boatload of other crimes as well.
Without Unions there is no counterbalance to piss-poor or criminal management. Your reliance on "the government" is completely unrealistic. The OSHA itself proves that beyond a doubt. OSHA never inspected that plant... they don't have enough inspectors to inspect all the plants.
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My personal opinion is that the unions are far more corrupt than the regulatory agencies of the US. Granted, the same people that abuse the unions would probably migrate into those agencies as experts and corrupt them further if the unions were eliminated. And I'm not saying that they should be eliminated BTW.
I just think that the power of the unions needs to be moved back to the local level. The national representatives have a track record of not looking out for the employees or their company.
We obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't think either one of us is going to change our mind.
But before you write me off as some anti-worker fascist, consider the option of maintaining authority in local unions, where people who's day to day lives are involved with the people they represent and the companies who's welfare has a direct effect on those people.
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05/14/2004
The number of inspectors were at a high during the Carter administration, with 1,388. Today there are 1,186. Fewer inspectors mean fewer inspections for the 6.5 million workplaces covered by OSH Act. States have either a federally administered OSHA or a state administered OSHA. There are 23 states that have an OSHA approved state plan.
This is the system you think is "in place to prevent this type of thing".
6.5 million workplaces, ~1200 inspectors. Do the math.
If each inspector worked an 8 hour day/40 hour week and spent 10 minutes at each plant, could they visit all the plants in a year?
Do you think they could do a realistic inspection in 10 minutes?
THAT'S why you have to have a "redundant" system... because the "system in place" is incapable of performing it's duty. In fact, "laughably incapable" is being generous.
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Like most, you pigeon-hole me and do so incorrectly.
I refer you farther up the thread where I pointed out that the only thing worse than a Union is no Union.
If you really believe in OSHA's ability to inspect, there is no point in further discussion. I chat with Boroda enough to get my fill of that sort of belief system.
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Well, I'm just going to say one more thing on that subject. Local health and fire inspectors are responsible for the periodic inspection of all places of employment. Eleven years is not periodic. Quarterly or bi-yearly is periodic. There are already redundant systems in place to prevent that type of thing. In that one instance, the people responsible for those inspections were grossly negligent. The employees should have taken the initiative to point that out.
One month of it, maybe.
Six months of it. Well, I can't see it, but OK.
ELEVEN years of it??
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Originally posted by Toad
Like most, you pigeon-hole me and do so incorrectly.
I didn't do so intentionally, that's why I clarified my position. Well, clarify might be strong, I never actually posted it.
I do strongly believe that the unions in their present form are exactly what I said they were at the begining of this thread.
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The system you rely on to make Unions redundant DOESN'T WORK.
It NEVER will work.
But go on living in cloud cuckoo land if you like.
The has to be a balancing force, like it or not. It's due to the human nature of management. They fall victim to all the seven deadly sins just like any other human, including union officials.
Balance.
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I just think that the power of the unions needs to be moved back to the local level. The national representatives have a track record of not looking out for the employees or their company.
If by that you mean, Union representatives on the national level are out of touch with the working people of this country. You may be right. I would be the first to agree that the Unions of this country need to get back to the real reason that they were created. Worker safety, fair wages for fair work, and the 8 hour work day.
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Works where I live. Only union around here is down at the port. They have more accidents and deaths than any other place around here.
My personal opinion is that the unions are far more corrupt than the regulatory agencies of the US. Granted, the same people that abuse the unions would probably migrate into those agencies as experts and corrupt them further if the unions were eliminated. And I'm not saying that they should be eliminated BTW.
I just think that the power of the unions needs to be moved back to the local level. The national representatives have a track record of not looking out for the employees or their company.
We obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't think either one of us is going to change our mind.
But before you write me off as some anti-worker fascist, consider the option of maintaining authority in local unions, where people who's day to day lives are involved with the people they represent and the companies who's welfare has a direct effect on those people.
But go on living in cloud cuckoo land if you like.
There's no reason to start that.
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We, as a nation, are a union, and I am damn proud of it.
Mailhandlers Local 301
United we stand, divided we fall
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But go on living in cloud cuckoo land if you like.
Aaah, that was minor Laz, But your right we are having a civil discussion here.
Works where I live. Only union around here is down at the port. They have more accidents and deaths than any other place around here.
Who? sounds like something is missing there.
Well if that is true they have a big problem, but I guess it is as much the workers fault as it is managements or the LU.
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Sixpence!! Welcome Brother!
Sled
IBEW LU 1547
Anchorage, AK
Journeyman Power lineman
Bringing power to the People!
"Linemen risk there lives bringing power into yours"
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Originally posted by SLED
Sixpence!! Welcome Brother!
Sled
IBEW LU 1547
Anchorage, AK
Journeyman Power lineman
Bringing power to the People!
"Linemen risk there lives bringing power into yours"
Saw a documentary on that not too long ago. That's a tough craft my friend. They showed how they work on lines with helicopters, they actually attach to the lines and have all that current flowing through the chopper and the worker, I guess you are safe as long as you don't ground out on something(not sure how it works really)
Buddy of mine is in the electricians local 103, he has to do 5 years of school before he can get his license(not to mention 6 years experience). The locals requirements are even tougher than state requirements.
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I'm sorry but I know of no other more polite way to say you are totally out of touch with the reality of working in such plants in the USA today.
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Originally posted by ATA
Union is a commy thing(i know it from my own experience),no matter what you do it's almost impossible to loose the job as long as you with union.
You don't perform, the contractor will not call you for it's next job. The contractor usually has a core of union workers it likes that show up everyday and do quality work. They want them for their projects. Robert Kraft's stadium was union built, on time, on budget.
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Union is a commy thing(i know it from my own experience),no matter what you do it's almost impossible to loose the job as long as you with union.
This is sort of true in some cases. But as a rule (in my profession anyway) you can be fired for almost anything. Sometimes it is called a one man lay-off :) But the end result is the same.
It's happened to me.
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Originally posted by ATA
Toad please accept my....
You're in Providence? I think yer the only one here from there. Great town.
Uh... unions... I flip back and forth on the subject every time I hear someone say something intelligent - pro or con - about them.
Right now it's this: "The only thing worse than a Union is no Union" - Toad
Just one of those things that rings true.
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Originally posted by Toad
you are totally out of touch with the reality of working in such plants in the USA today.
Just out of curiosity Toad, when was the last time you worked in a plant or a wharehouse?
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Originally posted by Airhead
Culero, my motives are as selfish (well, more so actually) as they are noble. If I have a Union bug I can bid on political and State work, which is pretty lucrative....plus political work is all C.O.D.
That makes perfect sense to me. I was self-employed for 2 decades, and during that time had the chance to do some work for public money. It gets paid promptly and at top rates, great stuff for any business.
Better yet, what I did was for the local DEA office - repair their undercover cars. They were confiscated property, so no government regs or procedures were involved as would have been with fleet stuff, we just decided what to do and did it. Plus, they paid COD with confiscated CASH :)
Originally posted by Airhead
But I also wish to grow a business that provides careers for people, not just jobs.
Admirable.
The reason I closed my business was that I reached a point where I needed more than part time entry level help (I was a one-technician shop, just used assistants for scut work). I hit a plateau in terms of yearly GP that I realized I wasn't gonna grow anymore. The alternatives were to accept that, expand, or close.
I executed a business plan when an acquaintance offered to contribute a comnercial location he owned to a corporation consisting of me so that I could collateralize a new facility and startup. SBA assisted me with demographic studies and offered to back the loan, I had two offers from oil companies to pay me a signing bonus for a contract to feature their bulk product, and my personal banker told me screw SBA, we don't need 'em, and made me a very attractive financing offer for every cent I needed.
The one thing I did that was questioned by everyone involved was build in a compensation structure for my staff that included well-above-average salary for my area, substantial performance incentives, and group medical coverage. I told them I was 1) NOT going to accept the pain in my a** that turnover due to inadequate compensation for quality help creates 2) NOT going to accept less than sterling quality people as employees 3) NOT going to treat quality people like crap.
They shut up :)
culero (then the bastard landowner got a better offer)
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Lazerus, do you think the safety record at the port would be better or worse without the union?
Do you think the dockworkers would make more money or less without the union?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Lazerus, do you think the safety record at the port would be better or worse without the union?
I honostly have no way of forming an opinion on that.
Do you think the dockworkers would make more money or less without the union?
Again, I have no way to form an opinion on this. The cost of negotiation with unions, union dues, all could be recouped and added to their pay. They might make more. They might not actualy be worth what they are getting paid, and the market would dictate that they make less. That is the important part. Employment is a contract. You agree to do a certain job, and a company agrees to reimburse you a certain amount for that job. It is an agreement based on market, not strong arm tactics. If their skills and expertise are worth more, if the demand for their skills and expertise is high, then the market will dictate a higher pay. If they are not, then the market will reflect that too.
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except that you are leaving out the other half of that equasion again which is the multimillion dollared salary people refusing to let go of a part of the beanpile so that others can be paid a decent wage for the services that they provide.
unions were created to provide a buffer.
like them or not, and i can understand why one wouldnt like them, they are not going anywhere soon.
thier purpose is to represent the interest of the body of workers as a whole, to negotiate contracts and employment terms in a way that counters the natural selfishness that comes from the brass.
the market seems to have no problem giving them a raise when stocks are sinking, people are getting laid off and conditions are growing worse. its abhorant and gross.
you might say...well, they can just go hire some guy in a third world country to do the labor. yep. and eventually they to are going to get tired of getting nothing while the top gets everything and form a union. even at the risk of bloodshed.
its how it goes.
its a seesaw.
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what is your Avatar 88? it looks familiar.
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It's amazing to me that there are people out there who are stupid enough to believe that any organization that forces a wage to be paid to someone whos skills are not commensurate w/ said wage is a boon to anyone.
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Originally posted by Steve
It's amazing to me that there are people out there who are stupid enough to believe that any organization that forces a wage to be paid to someone whos skills are not commensurate w/ said wage is a boon to anyone.
So, no minimum wage?
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Steve, you are correct. In some cases that does happen. In most cases though if you can't do the work you are not going to be employed. This is certainly the case in most if not all construction type work. In my line of work, if we have a guy comes around that is not pulling his weight, we the Hands will run him off. If not then the GF will give him a "one man lay-off". Sometimes it happens for no more reason than you don't get along with a crew.
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I say the job I have is only worth paying someone two dollars an hour. Now this damn American union is telling me I have to pay over six dollars an hour?! Damn this commy country, I am taking my business to China where I can pay them three cents an hour.
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In my line of work, if we have a guy come around that is not pulling his weight, we the Hands will run him off. If not then the GF will give him a "one man lay-off".
ahhh this is a good thing. It's nice to know that some unions(and their members) expect results from themselves and their union mates.
* edit: Thank you for this enlightenment, I cannot explain why but I find the lesson you just gave me very pleasing.
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So, no minimum wage?
Absolutely not, IMHO.
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Certainly not, it is much better for a country to have 1% of the population making 95% of the money, than it is for there to be any kind of equitable distribution of wealth. Any good Republican can tell you that. Of course, the really amusing thing is most of them don't realize they are lemmings just like the rest of us... if half the **** Republicans want to do actually gets done, the moronic supporters (read, the supporters who aren't multi-millionares+) will be harmed along with all the whoopee ******s and spics ruining our great country :rolleyes:
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Local 777 SPFPA Stand and be Recognized :aok
USGriff
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Hey GRIFF!!
Brother!
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Originally posted by SLED
what is your Avatar 88? it looks familiar.
jonny depp as hunter s. thompson in fear and loathing in las vegas
:cool:
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Urchin, Here's a couple of quick lessons in economics:
Example: Raise the minimum wage to let's say, $25.00 an hour. That's great right? Now even people who work at Mcdonald's can afford a nice big house, right?
Who do you think pays for the artifically raised union wages, the higher minimum wage? Does the employer? NO
The consumers(read you and I) do.
One should earn as much money as one is worth. In Arizona for instance, most fast food places pay more than minimum wage because there is a dearth of reliable employees. Raise the minimum wage and the unqualified will be making money they do not deserve and the price of your big mac will go up. Get it?
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Originally posted by Steve
Urchin, Here's a couple of quick lessons in economics:
Example: Raise the minimum wage to let's say, $25.00 an hour. That's great right? Now even people who work at Mcdonald's can afford a nice big house, right?
Who do you think pays for the artifically raised union wages, the higher minimum wage? Does the employer? NO
The consumers(read you and I) do.
One should earn as much money as one is worth. In Arizona for instance, most fast food places pay more than minimum wage because there is a dearth of reliable employees. Raise the minimum wage and the unqualified will be making money they do not deserve and the price of your big mac will go up. Get it?
Trick question.. At $25.00 an hour they would all be unemployed...
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Steve, I'll fully admit that I'm "ignorant" in economic knowledge. So.. your argument is mainly that if the minimum wage goes up, rich people will no longer be as wealthy vis a vis the rest of society, so they will raise the prices of everything to maintain the inequality?
Just explain to me how this is good for the country, that is all I want. I honestly don't understand how it could be. If you can convince me that it actually is, I swear to Christ I'll run down and change my little voter registration to "Republican" and happily vote against my interests.
Just some random stuff from one of the biased sources (http://falcon.arts.cornell.edu/ams3/rich1.html) I found earlier.
"In 1992, the richest 1 percent of American households owned about 42 percent of the total national wealth; whereas in 1982, the richest 1 percent owned 32%. (Herbert 1995) "
"In 1995, the top 20 percent of American households owned more than 80 percent of the national wealth. (Herbert 1995) (Sandel 1996: 329) "
"In 1997, 50 percent of all financial assets in the US were owned by the wealthiest 1 percent of the population; and more than 75 percent of all financial assets were owned by the wealthiest 10 percent. (Cassidy 1997: 255) "
"The share of marketable net worth held by the wealthiest 1 percent of American families fell 10% between 1945 and 1976, and then increased 34% between 1976 and 1983, and increased a further 39% between 1983 and 1989. Meanwhile, the share of wealth held by the bottom 80% fell by more than 20% between 1976 and 1989; by 1989, the bottom 80% of American families owned only 15% of the net worth in the U.S. Financial net worth is distributed even more unequally: in 1989, the top 1 percent of families owned 48% of the total financial wealth; while the top 20% owned 94%. (Herbert 1996a) "
Surely you see the trend here? Unless I made a grevious error in my Ripsnorting, those should be arranged roughly in chronological order, except for the last one.
So tell me, why is this good[/b] for the country? How can you possibly think this is anything but larceny?
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Urchin, what you've posted has NOTHING top do with raising wages.
So.. your argument is mainly that if the minimum wage goes up, rich people will no longer be as wealthy vis a vis the rest of society, so they will raise the prices of everything to maintain the inequality?
No my argument has nothing to do with this.
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Urchin do you pay the cabdriver $5,000 to drive you to the local airport?
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So tell me, why is this good for the country? How can you possibly think this is anything but larceny?
Because people become wealthy and successful they are thieves?
It is somehow the fault of the successful that average/below achievers aren't wealthy?
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I don't pay the cabdriver anything to take me to the airport. Hell, I've never actually been in a cab, to the best of my knowledge.
Steve, then you've lost me. I have no idea what your argument is about. Can you dumb it down for me?
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Example: Raise the minimum wage to let's say, $25.00 an hour. That's great right? Now even people who work at Mcdonald's can afford a nice big house, right?
It is difficult to make legitimate points using absurd examples.
No union is going to raise wages to the point of running the company out of business. That equals no work. Unions are supposed to be there to make sure the worker makes fair wage compared to the amount of money the company is taking in.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I don't pay the cabdriver anything to take me to the airport. Hell, I've never actually been in a cab, to the best of my knowledge.
Steve, then you've lost me. I have no idea what your argument is about. Can you dumb it down for me?
Ok. How bout $500 for a bus ride to the other end of town?
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Originally posted by SLED
It is difficult to make legitimate points using absurd examples.
No union is going to raise wages to the point of running the company out of business. That equals no work. Unions are supposed to be there to make sure the worker makes fair wage compared to the amount of money the company is taking in.
No they will just ask and ask for more until trhe company gets tired of the fleecing and unproductivity and moves production elsewhee if they can...
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It is difficult to make legitimate points using absurd examples.
Sled, I was being dramatic to make a point. Allow me to simplify:
Any raise in wages is going to impact the price of goods/services offered by the employer, causing said goods/services to be more expensive. Thus the consumers(you, me, and the very employees we are discussing) are the ones who bear the burden for a raised minimum wage/ artificially raised wages.
Urchin, I hope this clears up the point I'm trying to make.
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No union is going to raise wages to the point of running the company out of business.
oh?
It was a losing battle. The union big shot filled the union workers full of "brothers and sisters solidarity" stuff at the union meeting that night. They bought it hook, line and sinker and vowed to strike.The factory was moved, the workers lost their jobs, the union guy went back to New York and I ended my career as a turnaround specialist
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well. not all of them. and i have to say that i am tossed as to whether i would like a machine to take my order or the trash mouthing snot who glares at me for making exact change from my coin tray after i have pulled forward without being given a total.
the thing is, i agree that a free market should dictate wages, but i am not opposed to a minimum wage either. noone can really make a living off of it anyway so it is a good starter arrangement for kids and retirees right?
what bothers me most is that executives continue to raise thier own salaries when companies are showing negative profits and stocks are declining. in my view, this is immoral and i would like to see a substantial social reaction against it. what it effectively says is that the captan is not accountable for the state of his ship.
does this mean that i am pro union? not really. i dont belong to one and probably wont but i know people who do and are who make strong arguements for thier existance.
i simply havent been involved in them, but i can see thier point pretty easilly...just as easilly as i can appreciate free market ideology.
the concept is not flawed. a union is a representative body whose purpose is to serve as a platform for negotiation. there is nothing wrong with negotiating from a position of strength and corporations have historically seen fit to
try to stop any form of organization which may be able to counter top executive decisions.
when one side grows too much, the other side shifts to tear it down.
in my opinion unions were successful at closing down sweat shops in our country. were they to go away, the sweatshop could pop again.
its just rules. nothing more, nothing less.
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When 1% of the people in a country hold 50% of the money (probably on the low side, it is 8 years old), while the poorest 20% hold 3.5% (that ones current)... I think criminal is a perfectly suitable way to describe how the wealth is distributed.
Just a couple more examples, this might be better suited to the "Unions are commie $ux0r b1tch3s argument".
From some different biased source (http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6568) .
"With the poor receding so rapidly in our rearview mirror, here are a few postcards from both edges of the abyss between the "let them eat cake" crowd and the faceless millions on the other side.
Upstairs: Former Kmart CEO Charles Conaway received nearly $23 million in compensation during his two-year tenure.
Downstairs: When Kmart filed for bankruptcy in 2002, 283 stores were closed and 22,000 employees lost their jobs. Total amount of severance pay for them: $0.00.
Upstairs: Former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski made nearly $467 million in salary, bonuses and stock during his four years running the company into the ground.
Downstairs: Shareholders lost a massive $92 billion when Tyco's market value plunged.
Upstairs: The CEOs of 23 large companies under investigation by the SEC and other agencies earned 70 percent more than the average CEO, banking a collective $1.4 billion between 1999 and 2001.
Downstairs: Between January 2001 and August 2002, the market value of these 23 companies nose-dived by over $500 billion, or roughly 73 percent. And since January 2001, these companies have laid off over 160,000 employees.
Upstairs: In the year before Enron collapsed, about 100 executives and energy traders collected more than $300 million in cash payments from the company. More than $100 million went to former CEO Kenneth Lay.
Downstairs: After filing for bankruptcy, Enron lost $68 billion in market share, 5,000 employees lost their jobs and Enron workers lost $800 million from their pension funds.
Upstairs: Wal-Mart CEO H. Lee Scott, Jr. received more than $17 million in total compensation in 2001.
Downstairs: Wal-Mart employees in 30 states are suing the company alleging that managers forced employees to punch out after an eight-hour work day, and then continue working for no pay. Nevermind the Fair Labor Standards Act, which says employees who work more than 40 hours a week must be paid time-and-a-half for their overtime.
Upstairs Penthouse A: Citigroup provided Enron with $8.5 billion in loans disguised as commodity trades. The deals allowed Enron to artificially inflate cash flow and hide debt, which deceptively boosted share price and ultimately led to the company's collapse.
Upstairs Penthouse B: Citigroup offered hot initial public offering shares to WorldCom CEO Bernie Ebbers and other telecom giants in exchange for their investment banking business. Ebbers is alleged to have made nearly $11 million on IPO shares sold to him by Citigroup.
Downstairs: Citigroup agreed to pay $215 million in fines to the FTC to settle allegations of "predatory lending," loosely defined as mortgage lending that preys on customers, especially ones with bad credit, through abusive practices like deceptive marketing and inflated fees on unnecessary refinancings.
Upstairs: More than 1 million U.S. corporations and individuals have registered as citizens of Bermuda to avoid taxes, a practice OK'd by the IRS. Although the exact number is unknown, the IRS estimates that "tax-motivated expatriation" drains at least $70 billion a year from the U.S. Treasury.
Downstairs: If you were a worker poor enough to apply for the Earned Income Tax Credit in 2001, your chance of being audited was one in 47. If you made more than $100,000 a year, your chance of being audited was one in 208.
Upstairs: The top 1 percent of stock owners hold 47.7 percent of all stocks.
Downstairs: The bottom 80 percent of stock owners own just 4.1 percent of total stock holdings.
Upstairs: In 2000, the average CEO earned more in one day than the average worker earned all year.
Downstairs: In 2000, 25 percent of workers earned less than poverty-level wages.
Upstairs: Between 1990 and 2000, average CEO pay rose 571 percent.
Downstairs: Between 1990 and 2000, average worker pay rose 37 percent.
"
So please, tell me how this can be GOOD for the country? I already know it isn't "fair", hell, YOU already know it isn't "fair". We both already know it is immoral, and all kinds of other negative adjectives, even if only one of us is going to come out and say it. So tell me how it can be GOOD for the country.
You are the one with the degree in economics, I'm just working from common sense.
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what bothers me most is that executives continue to raise thier own salaries when companies are showing negative profits and stocks are declining. in my view, this is immoral and i would like to see a substantial social reaction against it.
I strongly agree. This kind of greed may not be criminal, but it certainly is unethical. I think all officers of companies should have a clause in their contracts that prohibits wage/bonus increases(for the officers) when a company is not performing.
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You are the one with the degree in economics,
Gosh, I don't remember saying that.
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Upstairs: More than 1 million U.S. corporations and individuals have registered as citizens of Bermuda to avoid taxes, a practice OK'd by the IRS. Although the exact number is unknown, the IRS estimates that "tax-motivated expatriation" drains at least $70 billion a year from the U.S. Treasury
This is a crappy loophole, but what does it have to do with the minimum wage?
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Upstairs: In the year before Enron collapsed, about 100 executives and energy traders collected more than $300 million in cash payments from the company. More than $100 million went to former CEO Kenneth Lay.
I believe the courts are handling this, but what does this have to do with the minimum wage?
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Upstairs: In 2000, the average CEO earned more in one day than the average worker earned all year.
Blame the CEO for having more marketable skills than the workers?
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i am 88's complete lack of surprize.
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So please, tell me how this can be GOOD for the country? I already know it isn't "fair", hell, YOU already know it isn't "fair". We both already know it is immoral, and all kinds of other negative adjectives, even if only one of us is going to come out and say it. So tell me how it can be GOOD for the country.
Tell me again where I said your anecdotes were good for the country Are you saying your anecdotes are how the majority of companies operate in the US?
Besides forcibly taking money from people who earn it and giving it to those who don't, what is your solution?
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Originally posted by Steve
Sled, I was being dramatic to make a point. Allow me to simplify:
Any raise in wages is going to impact the price of goods/services offered by the employer, causing said goods/services to be more expensive. Thus the consumers(you, me, and the very employees we are discussing) are the ones who bear the burden for a raised minimum wage/ artificially raised wages.
Urchin, I hope this clears up the point I'm trying to make.
See, this is where you and I seem to differ. Let me illustrate with a brief example. In Maryland, where I live, our Republican governor wanted to get some more spending money. Apparently the last 40 years of Democratic governorship have completely devestated the state's finances. So, he tells the State legislature, find some way to raise more money. He actually wants to bring in slots.. I don't really have an opinion on them one way or the other, but most people support them in a NIMBY sort of way.
Anyway, the Democratic state legislature decides that since HMO's weren't paying some kind of tax that other medical instutions were, they'd apply that "tax" to the HMOs. So, they did.
Now granted I only get this from the local paper, and I may not have fully understood it all, but I'll try to hit the relevant notes.
The biggest HMO in the state warned the government that it would have to pass the fee (I think it amounted to a few million, although I might have missed a decimal place, which would make it a few hundred million, but I doubt it) onto its customers.
Last year, the biggest HMO made 21 cents profit on every dollar. Or to put it a different way (the way the paper put it), for every dollar it took in, it paid out 79 cents in costs. That included everything (administrative, whatever, not just claims vs insurance bills). So they couldn't give up maybe 1 cent of that profit to pay the whoopee tax? They had to pass it on to the customers?
This is why when I see your argument that "Oh, the minimum wage is horrible for the economy, prices just go up to make up for the extra costs the minimum wage incurs" I see "Rich people aren't happy making 20% profit, they have to make 21% profit"
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Oh, the minimum wage is horrible for the economy
You put that in quotes like I actually said that... where did I say that?
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Yes Steve, blame the CEO. Does the CEO really do work that is 365+ times harder than the average worker?
Would it not be more equitable to say, cut that in half, so he is only making 180 (!!) times more than your average worker, and give your average worker a pay raise?
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JACK: Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B),then multiply the result by the average out of court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one. BUSINESS WOMAN: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents? JACK: Oh, you wouldn't believe. BUSINESS WOMAN: Which car company do you work for? JACK: A major one.
i am 88's righteous indignation.
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I see "Rich people aren't happy making 20% profit, they have to make 21% profit"
So, the Government should be able to dictate how much profit a private company can make?
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Yes Steve, blame the CEO. Does the CEO really do work that is 365+ times harder than the average worker?
Maybe they are 365 times more valuable than a laboror
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No they will just ask and ask for more until trhe company gets tired of the fleecing and unproductivity and moves production elsewhee if they can...
Sounds like an incentive for the unions to be reasonable in there request.
It was a losing battle. The union big shot filled the union workers full of "brothers and sisters solidarity" stuff at the union meeting that night. They bought it hook, line and sinker and vowed to strike.The factory was moved, the workers lost their jobs, the union guy went back to New York and I ended my career as a turnaround specialist
Yep it does happen from time to time, Not all unions are smart with there negotiations
Any raise in wages is going to impact the price of goods/services offered by the employer, causing said goods/services to be more expensive. Thus the consumers(you, me, and the very employees we are discussing) are the ones who bear the burden for a raised minimum wage/ artificially raised wages.
There are many things that effect the price of goods, Raw material cost, Fuel cost (republican controlled), Real estate cost, desired profit margins, ect. Labor cost is only one part of that equation.
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Originally posted by Steve
Tell me again where I said your anecdotes were good for the country Are you saying your anecdotes are how the majority of companies operate in the US?
Besides forcibly taking money from people who earn it and giving it to those who don't, what is your solution?
Yes... when one sees "average" that typically means it is applicable to the whole. At least, that is the way it works in math, not sure about economics.
And I don't, besides forcibly removing a government that is of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich and replacing it with one that is more concerned with protecting its citizens from the depredations of the rich. And even I know that'll never happen, especially with the Republicans having duped ~50% of the country into voting against their own interests, and the Republicans-lite with the other 49%.
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So they couldn't give up maybe 1 cent of that profit to pay the whoopee tax? They had to pass it on to the customers?
This is the point I'm making, now you are making it for me. Raised wages/costs are passed on to the consumer so any increase in minimum wage/ union wages will cause prices of goods/services to raise. Now we are making the same point.
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Originally posted by Steve
So, the Government should be able to dictate how much profit a private company can make?
no, but an educated populous and a group of enlightened stockholders could put a foot right up its butt if they wanted too.
they could begin to go out of thier way to support corporations who have decent business practices.
i am 88's belief in a level playing field.
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with one that is more concerned with protecting its citizens from the depredations of the rich.
Well, this has been tried a few times. In recent history, a country called the U.S.S.R. tried it. Do you remember how that worked out?
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no, but an educated populous and a group of enlightened stockholders could put a foot right up its butt if they wanted too.
Man, this sounds good to me.
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its not the governments responsibility to route out anything but that which is ILLEGAL. it sets up the rules of conduct and executes the warrant.
there are plenty of targets in that department who have raped and pillaged others and have fudged the numbers for thier own benifit. i would like to see them taken down where they stand.
martha stewart just wasnt enough. sorry. friend of GB or not. they need an asshand.
i am 88's sense of democractic accountability.
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No, we aren't making the same point. I'm saying that is is WRONG to pass that cost on, you on the other hand are saying that not only is it right, it is the only thing to do. I'm asking you to explain why.
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Yes... when one sees "average" that typically means it is applicable to the whole. At least, that is the way it works in math,
Bear with me, I think I missed something. Are you saying the examples you gave are typical(average) for American companies?
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I'm saying that is is WRONG to pass that cost on, you on the other hand are saying that not only is it right, it is the only thing to do. I'm asking you to explain why.
I am not saying it is the only thing to do. I'm saying that a company has a right to determine what it charges for goods/services and what it pays employees. Are you saying a company does not have this right?*
Edit: Or should not have this right?
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there are plenty of targets in that department who have raped and pillaged others and have fudged the numbers for thier own benifit. i would like to see them taken down where they stand.
me too.
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153 post and counting!!
My thread is kicking A-s!!
:D
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what we agree to pay is what we pay.
that is how the market works. we have set up a system which disavows monopolies so that we will have that choice.
i am not however comfortable paying the exhorbitant fees of CEO's while they are laying off workers or shirking all social niceties.
so, were i to be pragmatic, i would seek out a list of said corporations and make them public. i would then make a list of thier products that i could boycott. i would also make a list of companies who do not appear to be involved in any major way in such practices. i would buy thier things.
i would send a letter to x company informing them that i will not prop up thier culture and that i will be selling thier stock and no longer shopping with them.
i would send another letter to good company saying keep up the good work.
one person.
now what if 2...i mean 2....
(see alices restaurant...lol)
you get my drift.
of course...even though it makes sense to excercize this freedom...there would be those who would label me a wacko nutjob.
i am 88's sense of personal freedom.
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I am not saying it is the only thing to do. I'm saying that a company has a right to determine what it charges for goods/services and what it pays employees. Are you saying a company does not have this right?*
YES THEY DO Steve!
You know who else has rights? The employees have a right to form a bargining unit (union) to negotiate with the company a fair wage. Are you saying they DON"T have that right?
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In cases where the words "average" was used, yes, I am saying that would be typical behaviour for an American company. For instance, the "average" CEO makes XXX times more than the "average" employee, implies that some means of taking the average of the whole was used to work out a figure that would represent the whole sample. That may actually be the definition of an average, I'm to lazy to look.
As far as companies passing costs on to the consumer when the rising costs are merely trimming into an already absurd profit margin... yes, I am saying that companies should not have that "right". I realize that as a devotee of free market government, you will find that view abhorrent.
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nice quote there urchin.
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Yea, he is a dirty communist though... don't carry much weight on these here boards.
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FDR wasnt a communist. he brought america out of the depression through the new deal by offering a hand when it was needed. depression is a larger term than economics as well i might add.
to call him a communist...well, thats just silly.
NOTE: i lost everything in hurrican IVAN. FEMA gave me a little sumthn sumthn...not much, but it was nice to have when it happened. paid for a few things without leveling my saving. it was nice to have.
guess i am a commie too cause i took it.
or was that one of the reasons that i pay taxes? hmmmm.
;)
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Shut up, commie. You might infect the real Americans on this board.
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Urchin, we were still talking about minimum wage, not how much CEO's make compared to their employees.
FYI 21% profit margin is a long way from abhorrent.
As for CEO compensation, I am not sure we really disagree here. Let me explain: I feel, as I've already posted in this thread, that any officer who votes himself/herself a pay raise and/or bonus while the company is in the red, layoffs are looming, benifits being reduced, etc, that said officer is a greedy, immoral jackarse.
OTOH, do you not agree that any person in the US is entitled to make as much money as they can get? Land of opportunity?
Ideally, these persons are not making money while others in their organization are not being failry compensated.
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The employees have a right to form a bargining unit (union) to negotiate with the company a fair wage
FAIR wage sounds good to me. When I have a problems with Unions is already posted in this thread, please read it.
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When I have a problems with Unions is already posted in this thread, please read it.
Really? Where? I just looked at your post on this thread. I see this one.....
It's amazing to me that there are people out there who are stupid enough to believe that any organization that forces a wage to be paid to someone whos skills are not commensurate w/ said wage is a boon to anyone.
..... That was your first post here. But we allready discussed that. I don't see a post where you state YOUR problems with Unions in this country.
Maybe I missed it
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You just posted it
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Ok Then, as we already discussed. That is a problem with some Unions. As I remember you were happy to know that is not a problem with most Unions I know of. Mainly construction Unions mine included.
IBEW LU 1547
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Originally posted by Steve
Urchin, we were still talking about minimum wage, not how much CEO's make compared to their employees.
FYI 21% profit margin is a long way from abhorrent.
As for CEO compensation, I am not sure we really disagree here. Let me explain: I feel, as I've already posted in this thread, that any officer who votes himself/herself a pay raise and/or bonus while the company is in the red, layoffs are looming, benifits being reduced, etc, that said officer is a greedy, immoral jackarse.
OTOH, do you not agree that any person in the US is entitled to make as much money as they can get? Land of opportunity?
Ideally, these persons are not making money while others in their organization are not being failry compensated.
Well, given the state of the country, I'd imagine that most of the CEO's are making a killing, while most of the employees aren't even making a living wage (at least in the "service industry", which is the only one growing in this country).
And yes, we agree on the CEO issue apparently. I tend to get somewhat foamy at the mouth when discussing these things lol.
As far as your last point, no.. I do not agree that any person is this country is entitled to make as much money as they can make. I seriously think it gets to the absurd. I think at the very least, people making a huge amount of money should be taxed VERY heavily on the surplus. Honestly... once you are making 100 million a year, do you need more? Can you actually spend that much money in a year? I couldn't if I tried, unless I went out and bought a country or something.
I think this country has gotten seriously off-kilter. On the one hand, we have more filthy rich people then any other industrialized nation. On the other hand, we have no health insurance for 25% of the population, rampant poverty in cities (and elsewhere).. etc. I personally find it repugnant, although I can understand why someone might not, at least if they aspire to be that 1/10,000,000 that actually makes it to "filthy rich".
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I think at the very least, people making a huge amount of money should be taxed VERY heavily on the surplus
I disagree so strongly with this that I almost yelled it at my monitor, lol.
Why should one person, who uses the same highways, hospitals, public resources pay more than the next person? You complained earlier about things being fair... fair would be that everyone paid the same amount.
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although I can understand why someone might not, at least if they aspire to be that 1/10,000,000 that actually makes it to "filthy rich".
Guilty, your honor! That's me, I'm striving to be in the top 1%.*
* I'm nowhere close. According to most charts I'm around the 89th percentile.
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fixed flat tax.
fixed national sales tax plus fixed state tax benifit derivative of input.
anyone agree.
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You said it 88!!
FLAT TAX! everyone pays the same percent of there income. 88, Sled, Steve, General Motors, Microsoft, EVERYONE!
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I disagree with a flat sales tax for the same reason I disagree with a flat income tax. Both put a substantial burden on the poor, albeit in slightly different ways.
A flat income tax, while seeming more "fair" than a graduated one, affects the poor disproportionatly. 20% of 10,000 dollars means a lot more to someone making 10,000 dollars than 20% of 10 million does to someone making 10 million.
2,000 dollars is food for the year for someone making 10,000... 2,000,000 is just another mansion for someone making 10,000,000.
A flat sales tax affects poor people disproportionatly simply because the less money you make, the more you HAVE to spend simply to survive.
89th percentile isn't to shabby I'd say, Steve. You make more money than ~90% of the people in the country. I guess I was just raised poorly, or something that should be there is missing.. I just don't have that drive to be more "successful" than everyone else, especially if it means grinding other people into the dust. I'd rather have 10 people making 60,000 a year than 1 person making 590,000 and 9 people making 1,100 dollars a year.
That seems more "fair" to me... even if 1 of those 10 people doesn't "deserve" to have that much money.
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That's easy Urchin, just have a Minimum Income. You make less than $20,000- $30,000 no tax for you. with Microsoft and the like kicking in 10%, that would work fine.
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a national sales tax would relieve the burden, thereby allowing for a lower flat tax.
those who spend more contribute more.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Just out of curiosity Toad, when was the last time you worked in a plant or a wharehouse?
About 1973, just out of college, waiting to go to UPT.
How about you?
How about this?
IV. Worker Health and Safety in the Meat and Poultry Industry (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/usa0105/4.htm)
....Anecdotal evidence of the dangers in meat and poultry plants is backed up by hard numbers. The industry has the highest rate of injury and illness in the manufacturing sector. As one Nebraska expert explains:
Despite the hardhats, goggles, earplugs, stainless-steel mesh gloves, plastic forearm guards, chain-mail aprons and chaps, leather weightlifting belts, even baseball catcher’s shin guards and hockey masks . . . the reported injury and illness rate for meatpacking was a staggering 20 per hundred full-time workers in 2001.
This is two-and-a-half times greater than the average manufacturing rate of 8.1 and almost four times more than the overall rate for private industry of 7.4.
The benevolent management and dutiful government is doing a great job, don't you think?
You think Union Safety Reps are "redudant". They aren't "redundant" when they're the only folks actually looking out for the worker.
I'm sure you think the Air Line Pilots Association Safety Department is extremely redundant, what with benevolent management and the FAA, right?
Funny how the FAA considers the Union Safety guys a key part of making flying safe.
As I said, you don't know what's really going on out there.
How many hours do YOU think it is safe for a pilot to fly in one 24 hour period?
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after about 8 hours in the MA i start turning into crap. oh wait you mean real pilots...my bad.
:)
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(sled thinks to himself)
How did I know this thread would go down this road?
:lol
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it is the inevitable track of conversation.
just wait though. someone who is going to be PO'd about what someone else says is gonna roll along any moment now.
i can feel it.
( i mean...how is it possible to have a thread where i am in utter agreement with my brothers?!....its inconcievable!)
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88 = Goof ball! :D
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:D god i hope so. its what it takes sometimes.
:)
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I guess I was just raised poorly, or something that should be there is missing.. I just don't have that drive to be more "successful" than everyone else, especially if it means grinding other people into the dust
Urchin, you are pidgeon holing me unfairly. I'm not driven to be more successful than anyone else. I wish for everyone to achieve their goals, I'm not competing w/ these people. I'm driven to have enough money to live comfortably and to have the money for my toys. If everyone else has more money than me, great!... as long as I can have the things I want, I don't care what others make.
Oh and by 89th- 90 percentile, that's not making all that much, just over 100k/year. I hope you didn't assume I was "rich".
Finally, I didn't grind anyone in the dust. I busted my arse to provide the very best service to my customers and their patients. Just good old fashioned hard work, something EVERYONE in the U.S. has the opportunity to accomplish.*
* except certain unfortunate folks w/ handicaps.
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I'm not driven to be more successful than anyone else. I wish for everyone to achieve their goals, I'm not competing w/ these people. I'm driven to have enough money to live comfortably and to have the money for my toys. If everyone else has more money than me, great!... as long as I can have the things I want, I don't care what others make.
If that doesn't sound like a fine upstanding Union man, I don't know what one is.:)
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Let’s see…. Two years ago my union negotiated for me, a pay CUT in the last contract, and has told us that the next one (in one year) does not look any better. However the union staff reps managed to negotiate a nice raise in their contract a couple of months ago.
Oh yes, and I am able to reply to this on a Monday (one of my new days off) because I was involuntarily relocated to another building a hundred yards away from my old one. I am still doing the same job and although my employer does not consider this a break in service, my union insisted it was, and I lost over twenty years seniority when it comes to picking assignments and good days off.
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Originally posted by Toad
I'm sorry but I know of no other more polite way to say you are totally out of touch with the reality of working in such plants in the USA today.
Originally posted by Toad
About 1973, just out of college, waiting to go to UPT.
How about you?
[/B]
Then I would say you are out of touch with the reality of working in such plants in the USA today.
Me? I worked in a wharehouse about 6-8 years ago. Heavy equipment, machinery, lots of lifting.
Originally posted by ToadI'm sure you think the Air Line Pilots Association Safety Department is extremely redundant, what with benevolent management and the FAA, right?
I don't know enough about them to make any type of judgement. I do know that airlines are filing for bankruptcy. I do know that there was a recent strike by a pilots union for an increase in pay, or a decrease in hours required with no change in pay, or something along those lines. It might be interesting to study the effect unions have had on airlines. Aren't there federal subsidies for airlines? Perhaps if the unions hadn't extorted salaries that were above the market, our tax money wouldn't be needed to keep them afloat. But my knowledge of the airline industry is cursory.
Read this again.
Originally posted by Lazerus
My personal opinion is that the unions are far more corrupt than the regulatory agencies of the US. Granted, the same people that abuse the unions would probably migrate into those agencies as experts and corrupt them further if the unions were eliminated. And I'm not saying that they should be eliminated BTW.
I just think that the power of the unions needs to be moved back to the local level. The national representatives have a track record of not looking out for the employees or their company.
We obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't think either one of us is going to change our mind.
But before you write me off as some anti-worker fascist, consider the option of maintaining authority in local unions, where people who's day to day lives are involved with the people they represent and the companies who's welfare has a direct effect on those people.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Then I would say you are out of touch with the reality of working in such plants in the USA today.
[/b]
What? No comments about the poultry industry injuries? I thought for sure you'd point out an adequate safety system already protects those workers and any Union safey oversight would be "redundant". :rofl
Originally posted by Lazerus
I don't know enough about them to make any type of judgement.
That's true.
Originally posted by Lazerus
I do know that airlines are filing for bankruptcy.
[/b]
I'm not suprised that you don't want to talk about ALPA's Safety organization being "redundant".
FAA Administrator Jane Garvey praised ALPA for taking a lead role in programs to improve aviation safety worldwide, such as the Safer Skies Initiative, which she said has produced "some very good work" in the area of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT). She also credited the Association with helping the FAA shape its program to reduce the number of runway incursions.
Look into Delta and check out the way managment gave itself insured pensions and then asked the workers for concessions while threatening bankruptcy.
Here, let me help you.
Top Brass Perks Gall Workers (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/17/eveningnews/ends/main563771.shtml)
As CBS News Correspondent Wyatt Andrews reports, he's not happy, because Delta is cutting the pensions of workers while guaranteeing full pensions for top executives. A year and a half ago, Delta quietly committed $65 million for executive pensions, including one for CEO Leo Mullin. The benefit is called an executive trust; Starcher calls it a raid.
Yeah, it's those greedy unions alright. I'd tell you about Delta building palatial terminals, buying the absolute wrong aircraft for the fleet, buying literally millions of dollars worth of new china for First Class, pulling out of markets where we ran a 90+% load factor but, as you said, you don't know jack about the airlines. Well... except that you know the unions are the ones making them go bankrupt. :rofl Again.
Yep, you can trust your management to look after the workers alright.
March 11, 2003
The series reported that McWane, a company in Birmingham, Ala., that employs some 5,000 workers in a dozen American plants, had been cited for more than 400 safety violations since 1995, far more than all of its major competitors combined. During that time, records show, McWane employees suffered at least 4,600 injuries. Nine workers were killed, three of them because of McWane's deliberate violations of federal safety standards, OSHA inspectors concluded.
Hey, look! It only took OSHA from 1995 to 2003 to figure out that McWane was deliberately violating safety standards. Eight years, not bad! Of course 3 workers died because of those deliberate violations but at least we can rest easy knowing we don't need a separate "redundant" safety organization.
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Union: Police Benevolent Association. I served on the Board of Directors for 4 years. My proudest moment being involved with them was personally re-writing our by-laws (Dated 1980) and getting them passed. Needless to say – Never Again. My not-so proudest moment was when I and two other officers sued my own Union because they allowed the Chief, Captain, Lieutenants and Sergeants (Who were associate members – not full members) full voting rights in our Union when they had their own Union (SOA – Superior Officer’s Association). If a Sgt. was disciplining you and you wanted to fight it, the PBA would vote whether it was going to support you or not. That Sgt. could come down to the meeting and vote – absolutely ridiculous. Anyways – sued them – WON and the bosses were broomed from the PBA as far as voting rights, etc.
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Originally posted by Toad
What? No comments about the poultry industry injuries? I thought for sure you'd point out an adequate safety system already protects those workers [/B]
Despite the hardhats, goggles, earplugs, stainless-steel mesh gloves, plastic forearm guards, chain-mail aprons and chaps, leather weightlifting belts, even baseball catcher’s shin guards and hockey masks
What were the nature of the injuries. What were the nature of the illnesses.
Why were there injuries after the above listed safety precautions?
What is your level of expertise in the meat and poultry packing industry?
Originaly posted by Toad
as you said, you don't know jack about the airlines. Well... except that you know the unions are the ones making them go bankrupt.
Not that I "don't know jack", as you so eloquently put it, but that my knowledge is cursory. I knew when I posted it that you are in the airline industry.
Perhaps if the unions hadn't extorted salaries that were above the market, our tax money wouldn't be needed to keep them afloat.
It would be very hard to ever point to one single factor as the sole cause of such a large company filing for bankruptcy. The comment was made about federal subsidies though.
March 11, 2003
The series reported that McWane, a company in Birmingham, Ala., that employs some 5,000 workers in a dozen American plants, had been cited for more than 400 safety violations since 1995, far more than all of its major competitors combined. During that time, records show, McWane employees suffered at least 4,600 injuries. Nine workers were killed, three of them because of McWane's deliberate violations of federal safety standards, OSHA inspectors concluded.
Originaly posted by Toad
Hey, look! It only took OSHA from 1995 to 2003 to figure out that McWane was deliberately violating safety standards.
Nope, they figured it out back in 1995. There needs to be an adjustment in the procedure of handling companies that are in violation. Someone involved in the inspection process needs to be held accountable along with the company.
Originally posted by Lazerus
My personal opinion is that the unions are far more corrupt than the regulatory agencies of the US. Granted, the same people that abuse the unions would probably migrate into those agencies as experts and corrupt them further if the unions were eliminated. And I'm not saying that they should be eliminated BTW.
I just think that the power of the unions needs to be moved back to the local level. The national representatives have a track record of not looking out for the employees or their company.
We obviously have a difference of opinion. I don't think either one of us is going to change our mind.
But before you write me off as some anti-worker fascist, consider the option of maintaining authority in local unions, where people who's day to day lives are involved with the people they represent and the companies who's welfare has a direct effect on those people.
I will happily agree with you that unions have positively effected the work environment in this country. I will also never be convinced that they have not negatively impacted the economy of this country. Both are fact.
Of course redundant systems to ensure the safety of workers is a good idea. Of course it is more beneficial to the employee to have an advocate that is in their employ (union dues), as long as they have a direct influence on that advocates employment. Of course power leads to corruption. Of course the larger an organization, the more out of touch the upper level is. Union and employer.
Rather than dogmatic and emotional responses, how about a comment on my statement that I've quoted again for you.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
I will happily agree with you that unions have positively effected the work environment in this country....
Of course redundant systems to ensure the safety of workers is a good idea. Of course it is more beneficial to the employee to have an advocate that is in their employ (union dues), as long as they have a direct influence on that advocates employment. Of course power leads to corruption. Of course the larger an organization, the more out of touch the upper level is. Union and employer.
I could go into some detail on what I consider inaccuracies, however, in light of these words, I see no real need at last.
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In Management for the last 34 years in the Steel Industry.
I live near Youngstown Ohio. Up to 1977 Youngstown Ohio was one of the biggest steel producing cities in the US, second to only Pittsburg Pa.
In 1977 and a few years afterwards 3 major US Steel producers closed their doors. Youngstown Sheet and Tube (LTV) US Steel, J&L Steel......and in 1984 Republic Steel merged with LTV. LTV then closed the Youngstown works (3 Blast Furnaces 26 open hearths, Blooming Mill etc.) but kept the Warren Works (1 Large Blast Furnace , QBops shop and continuous caster) running.
Later LTV sold the plant to Ira Rennert and became WCI Steel.
The only Steel plant left in the Valley. Only a few miles away in Sharon Pa. Sharon Steel also closed (2 Blast Furnaces&BOF)
In 1974 or therabouts Unions were told that the plants were old in the Youngstown Area and needed modernization. Something had to be done to justify the huge expenditures for all Steel Companies in the area. Republic upgraded and improved the Warren Plant building one of the most modern Blast Furnaces in North America and later built a Continuous Caster.
Unions said Companies were bluffing, didn't believe them and took no temporary concessions as Salary already did to justify the huge amount of dollars that would be spent in Capital Improvements.
Result........over 77,000 jobs were lost in the Valley in Steel alone. This does not include the Satelitte plants in Steel processing and conditioning, Trucking, Machining etc.. In 1970 the Population of Youngstown was close to 200K. Now population is around 70K.
Unions now soul purpose is to make sure a marginal employee keeps his job. Basically now one has to fire him or herself to lose a job. It takes years to get rid of a person who has no business working anywhere let alone in the Steel Business.
Unless one is Salaried....like myself. I'm a Dinosaur now......not many blast furnaces operating in north american anymore. The ones that are are very efficient in fuel usage and in production. I consider myself lucky to still work in the field I started in 1970.
The Unions effectively cost at least 80K people to lose their jobs in the Youngstown Area. The Union Members who voted to not give temporary concessions are trying to find jobs at Burger King as we speak. A pity.....they had a good life.
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My grandfather worked for US Steel in Birmingham, AL for almost 40 years. Forced into early retirement, although only by a couple of years. I've heard a few stories about the union there.
On the upside, he was home because of union strikes many times we went to visit, so I got to spend more time with him.
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Originally posted by Toad
I could go into some detail on what I consider inaccuracies, however, in light of these words, I see no real need at last.
Well, I wouldn't mind hearing them. This is where I was trying to get the conversation to.
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An excellent example, Hajo. The investment required for modernization within the US steel industry was substantial. The competitive environment simply demanded it, as it always does in mature industries. Advance productivity or perish. Some companies chose to try, while others chose to use politics to limit imports because it was cheaper to 'invest' in politicians than capital equipment.
My problems were never with locals, the problems always came when dealing with the national union people. The locals had a better grasp of the fundamentals of business.
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To be fair though, why would the Unions assume the Company was bluffing, unless it had done so in the past?
I remember not to long ago - maybe a few months - an airline had just wrung salary concessions out of its pilots or mechanics, something like that - and then figures for very large increases in compensation for the airline's executives were released. AFTER the wage concessions were inked.
I remember it sparked a discussion on this board when I posted it.
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Because 80% of the population is stupid? If you don't believe me, take a little notepad with you for a day and make a note every time you see or hear someone stupid. Never underestimate the power of stupidity to influence events. :)
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Well, I wouldn't mind hearing them. This is where I was trying to get the conversation to.
You aren't going to change your mind. Neither am I.
I can read the OSHA reports, the reports of lost fingers, limbs and lives.
I flew the line, I know that safety changes originate in the cockpit and if they cost a dime, then you have to take a pay cut to get it.
Just putting strobes on airliners... which Cessnas had standard for years, took about a 10 year struggle with the company.
I've seen my brother go through the bankruptcy at Eastern, lose his pension while Lorenzo walked with multi-millions (side note, Lorenzo took over, Eastern sold it's reservations system to Lorenzo and then had to pay Lorenzo twice what it used to cost them when they owned it.)
Trump actually treated the employees fairly and well.
US Air stole their pay while Wolf and Gangwhal awarded themselves $40+ million in bonuses. US Air stole his Trump pension, which had been rolled into the US Air system.
The Bad Managments are greedy to an extent that corrupt Union bosses can only dream about.
I've seen bad stuff from the Unions too.
That's why I said long ago "The only thing worse than a Union is NO Union."
Both sides suck to an immeasurable degree. But you must have both sides for balance.
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Because 80% of the population is stupid?
My personal studies show this number to be btween 75% and 80%. This is not based on what people say, but how they drive.
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Originally posted by Toad
You aren't going to change your mind. Neither am I.
When this is understood, it's easy to have a civil exchange of opinions.
It's always good to listen to opinions from someone that holds a different view. Sometimes you look at things a little differently. You always learn something if you really listen.
Feel good lecture is over.
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I hope you learned this:
The only thing worse than a Union is NO Union.
;)
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(http://www.usmcsquad.com/images/stern2.gif)
(http://www.usmcsquad.com/images/CaponeMugShot.jpg)
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Another thought... Why should I or ANY other business owner be forced into a contract with an organization that took NONE of the financial risks that I took in starting or expanding my company??? Why should they dictate wages, benefits, working hours at all??? The free market should dictate what a job is worth to an employer. If an employer pays chump change, he will not attract workers who can compete. BUT at the same time 2 employees that have the same experience and same time on the job are not necessarily equal in their value. Why should they be paid the same??? I guarantee that If I had employees unionize I would find any and every way to get rid of them!!!
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Rolex....exactly agree about the Local Unions. They were influenced by the International.
By the way....a little side note. The International Steelworkers Union purchased a Country Club near the Pittsburg area. It is absolutely gorgeous. Beautiful Golf course with all amenities. The local members can reserve rooms there for a length of time and enjoy the Golf and luxury.
Gee......what about the local members that don't play Golf? This is the most blatant act of self service I've seen. The Steel Workers who lost their jobs can't reserve rooms there now or get a tee time. They are no longer dues paying members. The International got what it wanted.....the local members got something also.........they were sacrificial lambs. This is a true story!
Fore!!
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It is the Fault of Corporate America that Unions exist at all.
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Sled....no argument with that at all.
Now we have two greedy sides instead of one.
for both their sakes.....some middle ground will have to be found.
If not Manufacturing in the US will become non existant and depend on foreign made goods.
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Originally posted by Hajo
for both their sakes.....some middle ground will have to be found.
Now what people are more likely to understand that a middle ground will have to be found?
1. The ones that think management does what is right and that unions have no place in the system
2. The ones that think the union is always right and that management has no conscience, only greed
3. The ones that think managment are a bunch of greedy foxxers who will screw you at the drop of a trouser and that union leaders are a bunch of greedy foxxers that will screw you at the drop of a trouser
I'm going with number 3. Help us Obi-Wanthey'reallgreedysoxsuckers! You're our only hope!
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Why not arbitration? Company opens their books and presents their case, union presents their case, arbitrator(s) rules and both sides are bound by the ruling.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Why not arbitration? Company opens their books and presents their case, union presents their case, arbitrator(s) rules and both sides are bound by the ruling.
They already have binding arbitration provided by the NLRB. Unfortunately the Labor Board is stacked with Bush appointees so now, more than ever, it's tougher to get a favorable decision if you're representing Labor.
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
(http://www.usmcsquad.com/images/stern2.gif)
(http://www.usmcsquad.com/images/CaponeMugShot.jpg)
What's ironic here is that the first thing that happens at every Union meeting I've ever been to is the Pledge of Allegence.
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Another thought... Why should I or ANY other business owner be forced into a contract with an organization that took NONE of the financial risks that I took in starting or expanding my company??? Why should they dictate wages, benefits, working hours at all??? The free market should dictate what a job is worth to an employer. If an employer pays chump change, he will not attract workers who can compete. BUT at the same time 2 employees that have the same experience and same time on the job are not necessarily equal in their value. Why should they be paid the same??? I guarantee that If I had employees unionize I would find any and every way to get rid of them!!!
LOL You want to abolish the 40 hour work week too?
Amazing.....simply amazing....that some people were born 100 years too late.
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Another thought... Why should I or ANY other business owner be forced into a contract with an organization that took NONE of the financial risks that I took in starting or expanding my company??? Why should they dictate wages, benefits, working hours at all??? The free market should dictate what a job is worth to an employer. If an employer pays chump change, he will not attract workers who can compete. BUT at the same time 2 employees that have the same experience and same time on the job are not necessarily equal in their value. Why should they be paid the same??? I guarantee that If I had employees unionize I would find any and every way to get rid of them!!!
This is the attitude that gave Unions thier creation.
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6Gun,
Is that "Star" meaning to imply that Unions = Communism? Really? Quick history question everybody. What is widely regarded has the beginning of the end for communism in Russia?
Lech Walesa was born on September 29, 1943 in Popowo, Poland. He attended vocational school and then worked as a car mechanic at a machine center from 1961 to 1965. He rose to the rank of corporal while serving two years in the Polish army. In 1967 he became employed in the Gdansk shipyards as an electrician. Walesa quickly became a leader in the shipyard. In December 1970, he was briefly detained when the shipyard workers clashed with the government. In 1976, activities representing his fellow workers as shop steward caused him to get fired.
Two years later, Walesa began to work with other activists organizing free non-communist trade unions to establish workers' rights. He was kept under surveillance by the state security service and frequently detained. In August 1980, Walesa led the Gdansk shipyard strike for workers' rights which inspired a wave of strikes over much of the country with Walesa seen as the leader. The workers impelled the Polish authorities to yield to their demands. With Polish authorities, Walesa negotiated the Gdansk Agreement of August 31, 1980, which gave the workers the right to strike and to organize independent unions.
THAT'S an Icon of Union Labor.
I think your "Star" is misplaced
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I would never allow a union in my business. I don't want anyone dictating to me anything regarding something I own.
That said, I pay my employees* about 20% more than my competitors pay theirs. My service levels far exceed theirs because I am able to hire/retain good people.
* I only have 4 employees, not trying to sound like a big shot.
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Steve,
I am a American Union Man. But I would never try to argue that ALL employees need to be part of a Labor Union. I am sure you treat your people very well, and if a business with 4 employees "needs" a Labor Union, then something is very wrong. (although it has happened) However, there are many trades in this country that do need and benefit from a LU.
Sled
Journeyman Power Lineman
IBEW LU 1574
Bringing Power to the People.
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Sled, you know more about LU's than I. I only hear about the greedy, mismanaged ones. If there are LU's out there that represent their employees fairly, compensate their officers fairly, treat the employers fairly,...wow I'm all for that.
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Originally posted by Airhead
What's ironic here is that the first thing that happens at every Union meeting I've ever been to is the Pledge of Allegence.
Really? how strange....
every union meeting I've ever been too, the central revolutionary commitee rallies the workers whilst we grab red flags and wave bits of paper in there air just before we storm the winter palace as the Battleship Potemkin fires it's opening salvo.... :)
Tronsky
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As for Al Capone, He is no more an icon for Union Labor in America. Than Richard Nixon is for the Republican Party.
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Another thought... Why should I or ANY other business owner be forced into a contract with an organization that took NONE of the financial risks that I took in starting or expanding my company??? Why should they dictate wages, benefits, working hours at all??? The free market should dictate what a job is worth to an employer. If an employer pays chump change, he will not attract workers who can compete. BUT at the same time 2 employees that have the same experience and same time on the job are not necessarily equal in their value. Why should they be paid the same??? I guarantee that If I had employees unionize I would find any and every way to get rid of them!!!
Originally posted by SLED
This is the attitude that gave Unions thier (their)creation.
I really have to disagree with that one. That attitude of ownership, personal responsibility, and fair pay for a fair days work is what this country is founded on.
The belief that employees don't deserve a safe (or as safe as it can be made) workplace, or fair compensation for what they have to offer their employer, combined with a market that supports those actions are what led to the rise of unions.
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Indeed. American workers were overjoyed when American managers voluntarily instituted the 8 hour work day. What an amazingly peaceful transition that was.
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if only goebell's could have been around to see the propaganda in this joint.
(i am refferring to the al capone/soviet star hammer and sickle motif...n case anyone was wondering.)