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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 11:36:37 AM

Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 11:36:37 AM
if you were king for one day... (no...not the thomson twins song...and if you got that...well, youre old.)

what would you do to decrease dependance on foriegn oil?
Title: alternative energy
Post by: GrimCO on March 12, 2005, 11:41:25 AM
Yep, I'm old... I got it :(

Do like those college kids did from Colorado I think? Make cars that burn used vegetable oil from restaurants...  "Hey Mr., can I empty your grease trap?"
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Chairboy on March 12, 2005, 11:41:41 AM
Immediately switch to nuclear fission, then create tax incentives or a reward for companies/individuals to demonstrate new energy technologies that can be developed into the grid.

Direct government funding of research is useless, there's no real incentive to produce usable technology.
Title: Re: alternative energy
Post by: indy007 on March 12, 2005, 11:43:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
if you were king for one day... (no...not the thomson twins song...and if you got that...well, youre old.)

what would you do to decrease dependance on foriegn oil?


I'd form a contest (directly ripped off from Ansari) for an energy X-Prize to push forward the advances needed to make hydrogen a viable alternative to power vehicles.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: oboe on March 12, 2005, 11:55:41 AM
I don't think you can "immediately" switch to nuclear fission?  

We could just make Iraq the 51st state?
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Chairboy on March 12, 2005, 12:00:38 PM
I apologize for any limitations in you have in deciphering my use of the language.  By 'immediately switch to' I of course mean 'immediately begin the process of phasing out the current fossil-fuel based energy production industry with the goal of completing a transition to a fission-based power grid.'  While this was most likely clear to everyone else in the thread, I should have made allowances for...  well, you know.
Title: Re: alternative energy
Post by: john9001 on March 12, 2005, 01:53:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88

what would you do to decrease dependance on foriegn oil?


you people make things too complicated, in WW2 the govt issued ration books for gas. It worked then , it will work now, every car owner gets coupon book for each car, also legal to sell extra unused coupons. People will find a way to use less gas when they have no choice.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Flit on March 12, 2005, 02:01:18 PM
Nope, we gotta totally remove oil from the program.
We need a new alternetive fuel.
 A big breakthru in batteries/power storage would help
Title: Re: Re: alternative energy
Post by: Boroda on March 12, 2005, 02:03:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
you people make things too complicated, in WW2 the govt issued ration books for gas. It worked then , it will work now, every car owner gets coupon book for each car, also legal to sell extra unused coupons. People will find a way to use less gas when they have no choice.


US moves towards USSR?... I also advise you to use "consumer ID" cards for every area, so visitors will be unable to buy your saus... sorry, gas ;) Only is "commercial stores" for higher prices...
Title: alternative energy
Post by: john9001 on March 12, 2005, 02:04:46 PM
the question was "decrease dependance on foriegn oil"
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Stringer on March 12, 2005, 02:15:01 PM
Make it so that the oil there is no longer "foriegn".
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Bodhi on March 12, 2005, 02:25:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Stringer
Make it so that the oil there is no longer "foriegn".


I like that, hell we could just take over Russia... Siberia has lots of oil I hear.  :D
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 03:17:09 PM
(http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/files/pb3-se.jpg)

"Ha-ha, you fool. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia!" - vizzini
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Sandman on March 12, 2005, 03:18:25 PM
Hydrogen.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 03:20:43 PM
how is hydrogen harnessed into energy?

what are they doing with it now?
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Sandman on March 12, 2005, 03:30:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
how is hydrogen harnessed into energy?

what are they doing with it now?


http://sln.fi.edu/inquirer/hydrocar.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59890-2005Jan8.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/hydrogen.html
http://autoadvice.about.com/od/research/a/HydrogenPower.htm

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car)
Title: alternative energy
Post by: john9001 on March 12, 2005, 03:34:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
how is hydrogen harnessed into energy?

what are they doing with it now?


you can run a piston engine on just about anything the burns, BMW or Mercedes has a prototype running on hydrogen, it uses their conventional piston engine retuned for hydrogen.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: GtoRA2 on March 12, 2005, 03:42:21 PM
Give huge government grants to the Turkey guts to oil company.

(they can use pretty much any garbage including old tires). The goal would be have one of these facilities for every landfill.



Increase Domestic production in all ways tell these facilities were running, then cut back again.


Also give the auto makers large grants to develope cars less oil dependent.
 

Link (http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htm)
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Thrawn on March 12, 2005, 03:55:00 PM
Unlike all the commies here, I would cut taxes and trust in people and the private industry to come up with a solution.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: GtoRA2 on March 12, 2005, 03:58:01 PM
Thrawn,
 They are going to take your pinko liberal card away just for thinking about cutting taxes!!

:D
Title: alternative energy
Post by: john9001 on March 12, 2005, 04:04:19 PM
"huge government grants " are taxpayers money.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: GtoRA2 on March 12, 2005, 04:10:47 PM
Gee John you think?


I thought it was magic money.



The government waste our money on all kinds of stuff, at least this way we all may get something out of it in the long run.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: RTStuka on March 12, 2005, 04:24:26 PM
Well since I have only one day to actually make a difference and 99% of the plans would take more than a day to go into effect, mine would be simple, id nuke the living **** out of the entire middle east and everywhere that was producing more oil than us.

At the end of the day we would be the largest producers of oil and our dependency would be nill. Sure it would spell economic disaster and nuclear holocosts and not to mention that the US doesnt have enough oil for the entire world. But the question was what would I do too decrease dependency on foreigen oil.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Chairboy on March 12, 2005, 04:39:32 PM
One problem with hydrogen is that it seems best suited as an energy transportation/storage material, not a fuel.  The energy it takes to produce and bottle hydrogen exceeds the energy you get out of burning it.

There are some cool technologies based on cracking natural gas to extract the hydrogen (which is then used in a fuel cell to generate electricity), but that doesn't really remove the dependancy on oil.  Just interesting stuff.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 05:01:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Unlike all the commies here, I would cut taxes and trust in people and the private industry to come up with a solution.


i agree with this assesment only to the point of granting tax breaks to those who are working toward alternative energy.  

leadership on this issue would be important as well.

in the same way that kennedy inspired a generation to get to the moon, a leader must be passionate in his convictions on the subject to sway the people in its favor.

given a good pep talk...people can do pretty much anything.

if tax breaks helped by virtue of giving it as corporate welfare to organization, it would already be showing signs of major promise.  

there would have to be something which proved to be more advantageous to those who would seek cheap renewable energy v.  staying the course to further cement dependance on non renewable energy sources.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: vorticon on March 12, 2005, 05:16:00 PM
ban every automobile, except those wimpy scooter things...
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Thrawn on March 12, 2005, 05:30:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
in the same way that kennedy inspired a generation to get to the moon, a leader must be passionate in his convictions on the subject to sway the people in its favor.



So people gladfully have their wealth stolen from them.  If you had such a leader than he could persuade people to invest or donate freely.  As far as going to the moon, I'm glad you thought it was a worthy special interest.  But there are people that probably didn't, yet thier wealth got taken to support it anyway.

It's about having free choice to dispose of your wealth as you see fit, not as someone else sees fit.

When demand for alternative energy sources grows more people will invest in it as the chance of a better return increases.  This is assuming the government doesn't steal that money and misallocate it because they think they "know better".
Title: Re: alternative energy
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 12, 2005, 05:35:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
if you were king for one day... (no...not the thomson twins song...and if you got that...well, youre old.)

what would you do to decrease dependance on foriegn oil?


Simple. I'd make places like Saudi arabia. Iraq and Iran part of the USA.

then the oil wouldnt be foriegn anymore
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Skydancer on March 12, 2005, 05:39:32 PM
Up the spend on development of Hydrogen powered vehicles and provide incentives for manufacturers to do so. Plus develop Hydrogen tech so it can be retro fitted to current vehicles. Plu put LPG pumps on every forecourt.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 12, 2005, 05:50:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
So people gladfully have their wealth stolen from them.  If you had such a leader than he could persuade people to invest or donate freely.  As far as going to the moon, I'm glad you thought it was a worthy special interest.  But there are people that probably didn't, yet thier wealth got taken to support it anyway.

It's about having free choice to dispose of your wealth as you see fit, not as someone else sees fit.

When demand for alternative energy sources grows more people will invest in it as the chance of a better return increases.  This is assuming the government doesn't steal that money and misallocate it because they think they "know better".


Ummm whos wealth was stolen to support the Space/moon project?

I found it. and the various spinoffs we got from it. Well worth the investment.
Title: Re: alternative energy
Post by: kevykev56 on March 12, 2005, 06:20:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88

what would you do to decrease dependance on foriegn oil?



Genetic engineer a nasty disease that wipes out %50 of the worlds population. That would reduce everyones dependancy, and I could ride my motorcycle without all this stinking traffic!!!
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Dago on March 12, 2005, 07:49:29 PM
Invade several oil rich Arab nations, throw all the people out, nationalize the land and oil, then it would be ours and we wouldnt have to consider it "foreign oil".  :lol

dago
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Thrawn on March 12, 2005, 08:04:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ummm whos wealth was stolen to support the Space/moon project?

I found it. and the various spinoffs we got from it. Well worth the investment.


So you think.  What you aren't seeing is all the spinoffs from private investment into technologies that there was an actual market demand for.  You don't see because it never happened.  It never happened because that wealth for investment into things that were commerially viable was taken to fund a few landings on the moon.  If was so economically beneficial to the US for it to go to the moon why did it stop going?

The irony is that the US went to the moon in game of one-up-manship with the commies.  And did it not through capitalist means, but through commienism.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Thrawn on March 12, 2005, 08:07:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Invade several oil rich Arab nations, throw all the people out, nationalize the land and oil, then it would be ours and we wouldnt have to consider it "foreign oil".  :lol

dago



It will be funnier the fourth time around.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 09:20:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
So people gladfully have their wealth stolen from them.  If you had such a leader than he could persuade people to invest or donate freely.  As far as going to the moon, I'm glad you thought it was a worthy special interest.  But there are people that probably didn't, yet thier wealth got taken to support it anyway.

It's about having free choice to dispose of your wealth as you see fit, not as someone else sees fit.

When demand for alternative energy sources grows more people will invest in it as the chance of a better return increases.  This is assuming the government doesn't steal that money and misallocate it because they think they "know better".


i was meant the caliber of inspiration.  not neccessarilly tax money.  someone suggested tax breaks to companies that develope these things.  i think thats an idea too.

the problem wont get solved by paying alot of attention to the people who either refuse to accept that there is a problem or that dont want to contribute in any way.

imho.

:)
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Nash on March 12, 2005, 09:31:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
It will be funnier the fourth time around.




I think that was the 4th time.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: rabbidrabbit on March 12, 2005, 09:43:10 PM
Actually, Hydrogen has a reasonably bright future thanks to Algea.  No need to burn oil for it anymore.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 09:45:09 PM
btw...i would much rather see my tax money being spent on a constructive rethinking of our national addictions than many of the other things that are being done with it.

i have no problem with social safety nets either...it is reasonable that a society establish protections for its people, whether all need it or not.

how many poor does it take to make a man rich i wonder?

i dont like the abuse of it either but i think that strides have been taken to repair welfare and other programs and that they will continue to be revamped.

they were put in place for a reason and we have done pretty well with them so far.

and no, i am not a commie.  i believe in a flat tax and a fixed national sales tax.

the flat tax levels the playing field without leveling the players and the national sales tax gives the government inspiration to promote commerce.  by making it fixed, it is like putting the government on a budget.

i believe that these should be written to a constitutional amendment and ratified.  set percentage.  period.  make due with it...make it work.

just an aside.  sorry.  

(another thing that i would do if i were king for a day)
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Thrawn on March 12, 2005, 09:46:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Actually, Hydrogen has a reasonably bright future thanks to Algea.  No need to burn oil for it anymore.


Not necessarily true, you have to get engery from somewhere to separate the hydrogen from the water.


"I think that was the 4th time."

...and wasn't it hilarious?!
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 10:08:00 PM
dumb question maybe...but what about geothermal energy?  

it seems reasonable to conclude that we could dig down far enough to harness that too...or could we.  again, i know nothing...
but i wonder if that has ever been seriously considered?
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Nash on March 12, 2005, 10:17:15 PM
Yeah, a real knee slapper. :)

If I were king for a day, I'd loot the joint. Energy is way too complicated and there just isn't time.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: rabbidrabbit on March 12, 2005, 10:18:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Not necessarily true, you have to get engery from somewhere to separate the hydrogen from the water.


"I think that was the 4th time."

...and wasn't it hilarious?!


Not from what I hear..  

http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/tengy14r.htm
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 12, 2005, 10:18:50 PM
lol nash.

ye of little faith.

:cool:
Title: alternative energy
Post by: hawker238 on March 12, 2005, 11:21:06 PM
Start a nuclear war with the rest of the world.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: bunch on March 12, 2005, 11:51:59 PM
Someday someone will solve all our problems by harnessing the engery wasted on BBS discussions.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Toad on March 12, 2005, 11:57:04 PM
I would harness Greed.

I'd have a bunch of famous scientists set mileage and emissions standards. I'd want something like double or triple the mileage engines get now with less than half the emissions.

Then I'd slap a 25 cent tax on every gallon of every kind of fuel that is sold. The money would all go into a jackpot. First Patent issued that met the requirements would get 65% of the pot and the tax would stop right there. Second Patent issued that met the requirements would get 25% of the pot. Third Patent issued would get 10% of the pot, a warm handshake and a "thanks for trying" from the Prez.

Let Greed do the work.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Nash on March 13, 2005, 12:05:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Let Greed do the work.


Absolutely.

The problem is that greed is already doing the work... Just a different line of work.

We're lookin' at a wannabe oil man for a prez, a sec state with a tanker named after her, and all the rest of them just worried enough about the next election cycle that they can't afford to turn off the tap.

So...  that brand of greed already has its own built-in infrastructure. It'd be mightily hard to replace it with another brand of greed.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Rolex on March 13, 2005, 07:46:33 AM
Mankind often steps up to find solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems. Unfortunately, the Vegas line is that our grandchildren will be cursing us about this one. We're only two generations away from reaping what we failed to sow from a generation of inaction.

Sorry, no solutions now short of a magic wand or a lucky silver bullet. We failed to recognize the oil embargo 30 years ago for what it was: the global wakeup call to action, not discussion.

This isn't Y2K. This is the real deal. We're just a few years away from the start of the downward slope of all oil production. It took us 125 years to use half of it and the last half will be used up in just half that time at our rate of consumption.

The average American family would be destitute after 3 months without a paycheck. What makes you think you can get them to invest and plan for something 20 years from now?

Government programs? The government is broke in case you hadn't heard. You're borrowing $2 billion every day from foreigners just to keep the lights on.

Nuclear power? Too late. If you got everyone to agree tomorrow to begin construction again, we wouldn't get even one plant online before 2020. And that possiblity isn't even on the radar.

Gas, Hydrogen and turkey guts are all fine ideas. But if you're planning on being around 30 years from now, you might want to get used to the idea of being a little cold in the winter, a little hot in the summer and doing alot more bicycling and walking.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on March 13, 2005, 08:18:47 AM
Quote
(no...not the thomson twins song...and if you got that...well, youre old.)

I was thinking faith no more.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Jackal1 on March 13, 2005, 08:19:43 AM
Simple. Grow more corn. It would put the family farm back in business and make a cleaner burning fuel to boot.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: john9001 on March 13, 2005, 12:23:40 PM
i like the corn idea, grow corn , make moonshine, drink some , put the rest in your car.

but serously, they can make gasoline from coal, it just costs about 40% more than gas from oil, and the US has about 300 years of coal.

hydrocarbons is hydrocarbons.


on the price of oil. India and China's economys are growing at 10% a year, the chinese are buying cars as fast as they can be built and imported, those cars need gas.

world oil production is flat, demand is going up, shortage of oil will drive up prices. We could see $3 gal gas by this summer, oil at $100 a barrel is posiable in the near future.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Holden McGroin on March 13, 2005, 12:50:04 PM
Brazil produces four billion gallons of ethanol a year: all Brazilian fuel contains at least 24% ethanol, and much of it is 100% ethanol (engines can be designed to run on 100% ethanol).

Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors all recommend ethanol fuels, and nearly every car manufacturer in the world approves ethanol blends in their warranty coverage.

Many hydrogen alternatives pull hydrogen out of oil and gas, and thereby does nothing to help with CO2 or fuel dependance.

Fuel cells drive sysytems can be developed, Hydrogen engines are relatively easy to retrofit, it is the fuel delivery infrastructure that takes the big bucks.  Fueling stations could be connected to the grid and electrolyze local water to produce hydrogen at the station. (as a test station in Iceland currently does)  But hydrogen is just a way to store electrical energy for vehicular use.  

We would need to double our production of electrical energy. Nuclear is presently the most feasable production alternative as it produces no green house gas, salmon runs are unaffected, no acid rain, etc. but politics prohibit it.  Glass vitrification waste disposal has been proven reliable in Europe. Upgrading the grid, and fuel storage onboard the vehicle are the hurdles that remain.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Elfie on March 13, 2005, 01:43:35 PM
I would push the *Turkey blood into oil* thing that was posted some time ago on this BBS. That technology turns any carbon based waste into oil.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 13, 2005, 01:56:52 PM
its made of people!!!!!!!


Title: alternative energy
Post by: TweetyBird on March 13, 2005, 09:07:44 PM
Alternative energy? I smothered down some cabbage today - I have an idea :D
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Nash on March 13, 2005, 09:11:54 PM
BOOM! I just had me a vision!

Now bear with me folks...

Rubber bands.

'nuff said.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 13, 2005, 09:14:45 PM
i'm with you...keep going...
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Toad on March 13, 2005, 09:18:28 PM
Exploding rubber bands? Hmmmm.. it's just so crazy it might work!
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Nash on March 13, 2005, 09:20:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
i'm with you...keep going...


Erhm... well that's it.

I'm an idea guy! I'll let the smart people run with the concept of harnessing the power of rubber bands.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 13, 2005, 09:24:11 PM
i have tried to wrap my arms around it, but all that i get is the wasted energy winding or pulling them which would come from where again?  

maybe you are just a prophet and i aint ready.

sorry.

i tried.

wait!  cartoon characters!  YES!
Title: alternative energy
Post by: NUKE on March 13, 2005, 09:26:10 PM
If we could somehow tap into the energy of JB88's fingers as he types out all of his posts on this BBS, we might be on to something.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Nash on March 13, 2005, 09:27:44 PM
You're not seeing the big picture.

Think of all the jobs created! Picture a rubber band station, aircraft, truck, you name it.... teaming with Mexicans winding them up 24/7.

It's win/win baby!
Title: alternative energy
Post by: JB88 on March 13, 2005, 09:30:21 PM
now, if you are talking about harnessing the mexicans...well i can see it.

tortillas cost a lot less than oil by any stretch of the imagination.

i think were on to something here.
Title: alternative energy
Post by: Airhead on March 14, 2005, 01:38:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Brazil produces four billion gallons of ethanol a year: all Brazilian fuel contains at least 24% ethanol, and much of it is 100% ethanol (engines can be designed to run on 100% ethanol).

Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors all recommend ethanol fuels, and nearly every car manufacturer in the world approves ethanol blends in their warranty coverage.

Quote


That's all well and good, but how many Ethans does it take to produce a gallon of Ethanol?