Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on March 12, 2005, 07:06:02 PM
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Simply amazing -- a law requires that an accused NOT be handcuffed going into court for trial, so the bigger guy takes the female deputy's gun, shoots her in the head, kills the judge ... read on and wonder how a justice system can leave itself so vulnerable.
A guy this guilty should be executed on confrontation, not dragged back to court so he can try that again.
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Distress Call From Woman Leads to Suspect's Capture
Gunman Opened Fire in Court Killing Three; U.S. Customs Agent Found Dead Today
By RUSS BYNUM, AP
AP Photo/WSB-TV
Brian Nichols was taken into custody by a SWAT team that swarmed an apartment complex.
Watch Video: See His Arrest
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DULUTH, GA. (March 12) - A 911 call from a woman who had been held hostage for hours in her own apartment ended a daylong manhunt for a rape suspect accused of shooting a judge and two others at a courthouse and then later killing an immigration agent as he eluded authorities.
The suspect, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, set off a massive manhunt in the Atlanta area after he allegedly overpowered a court deputy Friday, took her gun and fatally shot three people, including the judge on his rape case.
During the night, Nichols approached a woman as she was entering her suburban Atlanta apartment and introduced himself as a wanted man, authorities said.
"It's my understanding that he had told her, 'If you do what I say, I won't kill you,"' Georgia Bureau of Investigation Director Vernon Keenan said.
The woman either escaped or was allowed to leave and called 911. A SWAT team gathered outside and Nichols turned himself in after watching the manhunt on television, Gwinnett County Police Chief Charles Walters said.
"He literally waved a white flag or a T-shirt and came out to our folks," Walters said.
The arrest came hours after the body of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent David Wilhelm was discovered shot to death about 15 miles away at an upscale townhouse complex. His blue pickup truck, pistol and badge were missing.
Massive Manhunt Ends
FBI Spokesman Steve Lazarus said Nichols is a suspect in that shooting, and police said the truck was found at a location other than the complex where Nichols was arrested, but did not elaborate.
Nichols was taken into federal custody.
A crowd of people across the street from the apartment complex where Nichols was arrested cheered as a black sports utility vehicle drove away, escorted by multiple police cars with lights flashing and sirens on.
The killings came less than two weeks after a Chicago federal judge's husband and mother were slain in their home, setting off a fresh round of worries about the safety of judges and others involved in the criminal justice system.
The day before the shootings, the judge and prosecutors in Nichols' case requested extra security after investigators found a shank - or homemade knife - fashioned from a doorknob in each of Nichols' shoes, prosecutor Gayle Abramson said.
Officials did not say what measures were taken to beef up security, but said deputy Cynthia Hall was alone when she escorted Nichols to his retrial on rape and other charges Friday. Law requires that defendants not be handcuffed as they enter the courtroom to make sure the sight of cuffs doesn't unfairly influence the jury.
Nichols allegedly overpowered Hall, took her gun and shot her in the head. She remained in critical condition Saturday, but hospital officials said she was expected to survive.
Nichols then went to the courtroom where his case was being heard and allegedly killed the judge presiding over the case and a court reporter. As he escaped the courthouse, he fatally shot a deputy who confronted him, officials said.
Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter Don O'Briant was getting out of his car when Nichols allegedly pulled a gun, demanded his keys and told him to get in the trunk.
O'Briant refused and started to run.
"I figured it was better to be shot at while I was running than to just stand there and be executed," O'Briant wrote in Saturday's Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
The man pistol whipped him as he tried to escape. O'Briant fell, but got up and ran again.
"I scrambled into the street, waiting for the shots to come, but they didn't come," he wrote. "I guess it just wasn't my day to die."
Throughout Friday, police said they were looking for the reporter's green Honda Accord, and highway message boards across the state issued descriptions of the vehicle. But the car was found later that night in the same parking garage where Nichols stole it.
Police said Nichols attempted more hijackings, and it was suspected that Nichols had stolen another vehicle from the same parking garage. Authorities would not comment on whether Wilhelm may have been carjacked at the garage.
Ned Cronan, 73, who lives across the street from where authorities found Wilhelm's body, said he's heard gunshots in the area before, but none Friday night or Saturday morning.
"I don't think they killed him there," he said.
Nichols faced a life sentence if convicted in his retrial. His earlier trial was declared a mistrial on Monday when jurors voted 8-4 for acquittal.
He was accused of bursting into his ex-girlfriend's home with a loaded machine gun, binding her with duct tape and sexually assaulting her over three days. Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard said Nichols brought a cooler of food in case he was hungry. Nichols claimed the pair had consensual sex.
"My guts tell me he faced a greater chance of conviction in the second trial," his attorney, Barry Hazen, told a local television station.
At the state Capitol, just down the street from the courthouse, Speaker of the House Glenn Richardson announced Nichols' arrest Saturday on the House floor as flags flew at half-staff during a rare weekend session.
"It ended the best way this could end," said Walters, the police chief. "The public can be relieved that he is off the street."
03-12-05 15:40 EST
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there is no 100% safety, as sad as it sounds.
but for sure, this guy now needs something different then a court.
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This is much a result and indictment of our political correctness and poor management run amok.
1) A 5ft tall woman cannot stand up to a 6'1" , 210 lb man. Only someone who has the brains of cabbage would have had one small woman escorting a big guy. But, womans rights and all, we must give her the chance to die rather than risk acknowledging the differance in size, strength and capabilities between men and women in dealing with a person who would pose such a threat.
2) The guy should have been handcuffed, and if reasonable measure were in place, he would have had his handcuffs on behind his back. Why wasn't there in place, and followed an SOP that would have had him cuffed?
The whole mess is a tragedy. It probably could have been easily prevented with common sense and policies most law enforcement departments would normally follow.
dago
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5ft tall woman cannot stand up to a 6'1" , 210 lb man. Only someone who has the brains of cabbage would have had one small woman escorting a big guy. But, womans rights and all, we must give her the chance to die rather than risk acknowledging the differance in size, strength and capabilities between men and women in dealing with a person who would pose such a threat.
'nuff said. This should about wrap up this thread.
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The "law" about not having the defendant cuffed was protecting the rights of the accused. No one was protecting the rights of the deceased. Three people died so that things would "look better" for the defendant. I hope the "law" is corrected. :mad:
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shock collar.
fashionable of course.
:cool:
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People just went bat5hit this weekend, eh?
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Originally posted by Maverick
No one was protecting the rights of the deceased.
...what rights does a dead person have?
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The bottom line is you had a 5'3 inch, 170 pound female deputy escorting a 6'1, 210 pound accused into court, all in the name of gender equality- and the result is four dead.
Like it or not, as politically incorrect as it may be, there are jobs that are best handled by fit, in shape males instead of frumpy bayliffs and fat bellybutton Sheriffs deputies who get winded in a 30 yard chase.
I know it's not "fair", but tell it to God- if you aren't a physical presence you shouldn't be dealing with these perps.
Sorry to be politically incorrect, but that's the way I see it...and life trumps political correctness every time.
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Originally posted by Maverick
The "law" about not having the defendant cuffed was protecting the rights of the accused. No one was protecting the rights of the deceased. Three people died so that things would "look better" for the defendant. I hope the "law" is corrected. :mad:
The accused is innocent until he is found guilty. The law is, in my opinion, correct. The procedures in place to ensure that this possible criminal (for the original accusation at least) might do something like that POS did are not.
Hopefully, what he did is now court record, so there is no reason for any defense. Just let a jury review the record and punish him accordingly.
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The procedures in place to ensure that this possible criminal (for the original accusation at least) might do something like that POS did are not.
Huh?
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Allowing a person of his physical stature to be escorted by a person of the physical stature of the deputy. That's just stupid.
Possible criminal=he hadn't been found guilty of a crime at the time. There is no doubt about his guilt now.
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I tell you what...that Nichols is one bad mother **....."Shut yer mouth!"
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Originally posted by Thrawn
...what rights does a dead person have?
The right to remain silent?
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The right to remain silent?
Good one.
Uhm... there must be more.
Oh, like doner cards and organs and alla that.
Plus the right not to be forced into some kind of freak sex with a shovel weilding goth chick.
Unless she was hot.
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THREE people died because of an incompetent guard. Of course she didnt deserve to be shot in the head for being a woman, but its a fitting end to the carnage that she allowed to happen.
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Up in CT, if there is someone being led by police to the court room, it means they've already been in jail for what they are accussed of (couldn't make bail, etc.) and are certainly handcuffed throughout the proceedings.
Why on earth they didn't have him cuffed, is beyond me. "Influence a jury"??? People already hate accused rapists, a little dinky set of handcuffs wouldn't set them off anymore.
I guess THAT law's getting changed.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4344359.stm
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Thrawn,
You know damn well what right I was talking about. The right to be alive.
If you want to troll over the death of 3 people who died in the line of duty you can do it without me. I find that particularly disgusting.
FWIW, PC or not there was no reason not to have him cuffed. The jury could be kept outside of the courtroom until the defendant is seated at the table. There also needed to be more than just one bailif in the courtroom.
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Saw the defense attorney in an interview this morning.
He said that there was a very noticeable lack of security for such a trial and that it had been discussed.
He said that the judge himself had expressed concern over the safety of the defense attorney in the event of a guilty verdict.
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Originally posted by Maverick
The jury could be kept outside of the courtroom until the defendant is seated at the table.
Makes sense to me too.
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Most of us could take the gun away from a female cop...we don't tho and neither do the criminals because of either the backup or respect/fear of the law.
Police all retire at the age of about 50. There is no reason that they can't all be fit, large males as part of the requirement.
I believe frisco was the first to say that it was "unfair" that only large males were allowed to be cops and that asians of 5'2" should be allowed. Been downhill ever since.
I know some cops will chime in here and talk about how great their female partner is but they all know that she couldn't do the job without either help or the reluctance/good sense to really resist that the aresstee normally has
lazs
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They do the same thing with firefighters Lazs- they lower the physical requirements to allow females in without regard to the ability of women to do the job.
I'm all for equality, but if I'm in a burning building and my rescurer is a woman then I'm afraid I'm toast...literally.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Thrawn,
You know damn well what right I was talking about. The right to be alive.
If you want to troll over the death of 3 people who died in the line of duty you can do it without me. I find that particularly disgusting.
FWIW, PC or not there was no reason not to have him cuffed. The jury could be kept outside of the courtroom until the defendant is seated at the table. There also needed to be more than just one bailif in the courtroom.
Mav, try this-
Thrawn
03-13-2005 05:01 AM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]
I guarantee you'll feel better.
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yep.. firefighters too.
If you are a cop or a firefighter in California you are on pers retirement... if you start at say age 25 and go to age 52 you will retire with about 90% of your last years salary every month for the rest of your life.
I don't think it is too much to ask that they all be fit, strong males that can subdue a criminal by themselves or carry poor ol airhead out of a burning building.
The peoples families of those shot in the courtroom should sue for the system allowing a weak fat woman to be armed and pretend to be protecting us.
lazs
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Originally posted by Airhead
The bottom line is you had a 5'3 inch, 170 pound female deputy escorting a 6'1, 210 pound accused into court, all in the name of gender equality- and the result is four dead.
What if it happened to a 5'3" 170 male?
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As a point of interest, the Fulton County Jail and the Fulton County Sheriff's Department are both already under Federal investigation, and have been for quite some time. And no one in Fulton County is accepting the slightest bit of responsibility for what happened (big surprise huh). I'm not at all a fan of lawsuits, but in this case the families of the judge, of the stenographer, and of the Customs agent should all sue the County of Fulton along with the involved departments. And the state or the Feds should take control immediately (not that I'm a big fan of the Feds either). What happened was entirely preventable and inexcuseable.
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Why does a guard in a courthouse that has to stand or handle the criminals have a gun anyway?
Shouldnt a taser be more appropiate?
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Originally posted by Halo
Simply amazing -- a law requires that an accused NOT be handcuffed going into court for trial, so the bigger guy takes the female deputy's gun, shoots her in the head, kills the judge ...
More guns, less crime! :aok:cool:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
...what rights does a dead person have?
There are many civil rights cases were a all white jury aquitted a defendant in a state trial and then were tried in federal court for "Violation of Civil Rights".
It's what helped to bring down the Klan.
Apparently the dead do have the right to justice.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
There are many civil rights cases were a all white jury aquitted a defendant in a state trial and then were tried in federal court for "Violation of Civil Rights".
It's what helped to bring down the Klan.
Apparently the dead do have the right to justice.
I'm probably misinterpreting what you said, but...
They tried the jury for violation of civil rights due to them reaching an 'innocent' verdict? If so, that's pretty weird, but very cool.
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No, they re-tried the defendant. Due to double jeapordy they could not bring murder charges against someone who was aquitted , so violation of civil rights was the charge.
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Ah, okay.
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Nash, you must not be from the U.S.
Cities and towns in the Southern U.S. were killing blacks and the whites who were trying to help them. When the killers were arrested by the FBI, and tried in Southern courts, they were found innocent. So the FBI had the killers tried in Federal Court for violating the civil rights of the murdered (killing someone is a violation of their civil rights). The killers were convicted and all got about 10 years in prison.
There has been a movie and several documentries about this. Plus it is taught in high school.
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Originally posted by Maverick
The "law" about not having the defendant cuffed was protecting the rights of the accused. No one was protecting the rights of the deceased. Three people died so that things would "look better" for the defendant. I hope the "law" is corrected. :mad:
A point of fact you will never hear on the news, of the 300 plus firefighters killed at the World Trade Center none were female.
For the simple reason that they had to carry equipment up 70 flights of stairs. When the s**t hits the fan you need men.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Cities and towns in the Southern U.S. were killing blacks and the whites who....
Appreciate the lesson Suntracker, but I've seen the movie... so to speak. I thought Holden was talking about something completely different.
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Originally posted by weaselsan
A point of fact you will never hear on the news, of the 300 plus firefighters killed at the World Trade Center none were female.
For the simple reason that they had to carry equipment up 70 flights of stairs. When the s**t hits the fan you need men.
Somehow I don't see the connection with this and the court killings.
Maybe then if the court house would've collapsed due to an explosion.
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The best part of this thread was once again Laz2, the other part is Beetle got ignored after he added those hoopty icons like he was somehow extra funny to himself, and didn't realize he's just a O'Club broken record, and a stain on the community.
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But then lazs was superseded by Creamo, who points out that I was ignored, but in so doing has to "unignore" me. :p
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Originally posted by Fishu
Somehow I don't see the connection with this and the court killings.
Maybe then if the court house would've collapsed due to an explosion.
The connection is he was alone with a 51 year old Grandma with a gun. He cold cocked her with one punch and took her gun. Three people are dead as a result. And yes it could happen if it where a single 51 year grandpa. The point is it should have been at least two very large men, he should have been shackled until he got to the courtroom and the shackles removed by an unarmed male of proper stature. There used to be a hight and weight requirement for law enforcement but it was lifted to allow woman to serve. In the World Trade Center, the city of New York is spending tax money on people that are not physically capable of doing the job in order to be politically correct. When the public safty is at risk the hell with politically correct.
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Originally posted by weaselsan
A point of fact you will never hear on the news, of the 300 plus firefighters killed at the World Trade Center none were female.
For the simple reason that they had to carry equipment up 70 flights of stairs. When the s**t hits the fan you need men.
Sorry but I dont think 'you need men' is accurate.
Ive met women who could've whipped my sorry bellybutton BAD with little effort.
There be strong girls out there man.
I think a certain standard should be made... like be able to lift a certain weight and/or hit with certain force along with endurance tests.
The last thing id want, as someone else already put it, is to find myself as a civilian in a dangerous situation and seeing that the person who'se job is to save me be a scrawny, wimpy guy/girl that my arthritic 98 year old grandma could woop with her walking stick.
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which is more amazing. This one or the 4 mounties killed in alberta last week.
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Originally posted by OIO
Sorry but I dont think 'you need men' is accurate.
Ive met women who could've whipped my sorry bellybutton BAD with little effort.
There be strong girls out there man.
I think a certain standard should be made... like be able to lift a certain weight and/or hit with certain force along with endurance tests.
The last thing id want, as someone else already put it, is to find myself as a civilian in a dangerous situation and seeing that the person who'se job is to save me be a scrawny, wimpy guy/girl that my arthritic 98 year old grandma could woop with her walking stick.
Do you think it was just a coincidence that only the men where sent up 70 flights of stairs in the World Trade Center? The New York fire Dept. is about 30% female.
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Originally posted by OIO
Ive met women who could've whipped my sorry bellybutton BAD with little effort.
That's because you are a girlie man. No woman could beat me at anything physically or mentally.
Gotta go... wife's calling....
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Originally posted by weaselsan
Do you think it was just a coincidence that only the men where sent up 70 flights of stairs in the World Trade Center? The New York fire Dept. is about 30% female.
All the admin roles are held by woman, so there is no place for guys to rest and recupe.
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Originally posted by OIO
Sorry but I dont think 'you need men' is accurate.
Ive met women who could've whipped my sorry bellybutton BAD with little effort.
There be strong girls out there man.
I think a certain standard should be made... like be able to lift a certain weight and/or hit with certain force along with endurance tests.
The last thing id want, as someone else already put it, is to find myself as a civilian in a dangerous situation and seeing that the person who'se job is to save me be a scrawny, wimpy guy/girl that my arthritic 98 year old grandma could woop with her walking stick.
In San Francisco they lowered the standards, both on the written exam and the physical exam, in order to attract more women and minorities into the SFPD and SFFD. In fact the previous standards were called "too stringent" "discriminatory" and "exclusionist" by the Board of Supes and then Mayor, Dianne Fienstein.
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They can't hear you, Airhead. I have it from an inside source you're on their "ignore" list...
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HA! Nash, that was the most intelligent thing You've ever said!
People just went bat5hit this weekend, eh?
Gave me a good laugh.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
There are many civil rights cases were a all white jury aquitted a defendant in a state trial and then were tried in federal court for "Violation of Civil Rights".
It's what helped to bring down the Klan.
Apparently the dead do have the right to justice.
Indeed, but rights protect us from government, not from criminals. Tossing out rights doesn't help the victim any, but it does hurt eveyone.
PS: Airhead, you're not really ignoring anyone if you keep on talking about how you're ignoring them.
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oio.. Ihave never seen a woman that I thought could kick my butt and certainly not one who could wrestle me down without using leathal force.
Every time some guy who watches TV or movie heroins says this it makes me wonder what is going on... The "worlds fittest woman" got pissed at that big old slob joey buttafuco (or however it's spelled) and climbed into the ring with him..
He slaugtered her. he was huffing and puffing from the effort of getting into the ring and then off his stool... he could barely walk and he beat the living crap out of her.. That is the reality of it. That is why you don't see intergender footbal or boxing.
sixpense... I don't want a 5'3" man on the force either or one who has let himself go to pot. still... a 5'3" man is preferable to a 5'3" woman.
It should be a requirement of the job to be fit and have real tests that an above average fit 50 year old man can pass with a lot of effort. They get paid enough and retire at around 50 with most of their salaries.
If not... put em on dissability or behind a desk.
mostly, the arguement for having women boils down to looking progressive and being liberal... the reasons it is ok vary from... women are just as good as men to.... they work fine if they all have male partners or lots of backup.
lazs
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Is this killer slick or what? Trying now for a prison ministry life sentence instead of the death penalty he deserves if ever a person on this Earth deserved one.
Wouldn't be surprised if he gets ONLY a life sentence and maybe even parole too.
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Georgia Woman Held Hostage Describes Ordeal
Police Praise Mother as 'Very Cool and Levelheaded'
By DANIEL YEE, AP
CNN
Ashley Smith says she cooked pancakes for suspect Brian Nichols as she urged him to surrender.
Video: Hostage Details Ordeal
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ATLANTA (March 14) - For hours, Ashley Smith gently talked to the armed suspect in Atlanta's courthouse slayings, turning from hostage to confidant as they discussed God, family, pancakes and the massive manhunt going on outside her apartment.
''I believe God brought him to my door,'' Smith said Sunday, only hours after her 911 call ended a manhunt for Brian Nichols, who is accused of shooting four people since Friday.
Over the course of the night, Nichols untied Smith, and some of the fear lessened as they talked. Nichols told Smith he felt like ''he was already dead,'' but Smith urged him to consider the fact that he was still alive a ''miracle.''
''You're here in my apartment for some reason,'' she told him, saying he might be destined to be caught and to spread the word of God to fellow prisoners. She told him his escape from authorities had been a ''miracle.''
Smith, 33, later called 911 after she was freed, and police soon surrounded her suburban apartment complex. Nichols gave up peacefully, waving a white towel in surrender.
''I honestly think when I looked at him that he didn't want to do it anymore,'' Smith said. If he did not give up, she told him, ''Lots more people are probably going get hurt and you're probably going to die.''
Police said they were impressed by the way Smith handled herself.
''She acted very cool and levelheaded. We don't normally see that in our profession,'' said Gwinnett County Police Officer Darren Moloney. ''It was an absolutely best-case scenario that happened, a complete opposite of what you expected to happen. We were prepared for the worst and got the best.''
The crime spree began when Nichols allegedly overpowered a courthouse deputy escorting him to his rape trial Friday and took the deputy's gun, then killed the presiding judge and court reporter. He also is accused of killing a deputy who tried to stop him outside the courthouse and a federal agent during his flight from authorities.
Smith said her ordeal began around 2 a.m. Saturday morning with Nichols sticking a gun in her side in the parking lot of her apartment when she returned from a store.
Bloodshed in Atlanta
He tied her up and told her to sit in the bathroom while he took a shower. ''He said, 'I'm not going to hurt you if you just do what I say,''' she said. He told her: ''I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt anybody else.''
Choking back tears Sunday, she said she told Nichols that her husband died four years ago and if he hurt her, her little girl wouldn't have a mother or father. Smith's attorney, Josh Archer, said her husband died in her arms after being stabbed.
The two talked about the Bible and she handed him photos of her family. When morning came, Nichols was ''overwhelmed'' when Smith made him pancakes with real butter, she said. He told her he ''just wanted some normalness to his life,'' she said.
The two watched television news reports about the slayings and the manhunt. ''I cannot believe that's me on there,'' Smith quoted Nichols as saying.
When Nichols finally let Smith go to see her 5-year-old daughter, he said he wanted to stay at the apartment for a few more days. She said she thought he knew she was going to call 911 after she left.
Nichols could appear in federal court as early as Monday to face a charge of possession of a firearm by a person under indictment, the charge authorities are using to keep Nichols in custody while they sort out charging in the slayings, said U.S. Attorney David Nahmias.
The Fulton County District Attorney's Office hopes to formally charge Nichols with the new crimes within 30 days, spokesman Erik Friedly said Sunday. Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard still would like to resolve Nichols' interrupted rape retrial.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported Monday that a courthouse surveillance camera recorded Nichols' initial surprise attack on Deputy Cynthia Hall but that no one in the control center noticed the assault.
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''It's not just horrible, it was preventable,'' Senior Superior Court Judge Philip Etheridge told the newspaper.
A video camera, which is supposed to be monitored by two guards in a command post, shows Nichols and the deputy arriving in the holding area between two courtrooms, according to a law enforcement official who saw the tape. The video shows Hall guiding Nichols, whose hands are still handcuffed behind his back, into one of two open cells.
Hall releases one cuff and turns Nichols around to unhook the remaining cuff. But the muscular, 33-year-old Nichols then lunges at Hall, knocking the petite, 51-year-old grandmother backward into another cell. Both disappear from camera view. Two to three minutes later, Nichols emerges from the cell, holding Hall's gun belt and police radio. He picks up her keys from the floor and locks her in the cell.
A few minutes later, he emerges in civilian clothes. He locks the door behind him and calmly walks out of the holding area, carrying the gun belt, according to the official who saw the tape.
Judge Etheridge said Hall should not have been alone with Nichols, a former college linebacker who had been found with two sharpened door hinges in his socks earlier in the week.
Hall remained in critical condition Sunday, Grady Memorial Hospital officials said. Killed were Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau, Sgt. Hoyt Teasley and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent David Wilhelm.
03-14-05 0517EST
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