Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TexMurphy on March 14, 2005, 03:37:23 AM
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Dont take the question literaly but let me explain my reasoning behind it.
When I used to play American Football (yeah we play it here in sweden as well) I played defense (DE and LB mainly). Since Football is kind of a "crappy" sport here some teams where really bad and the worst thing there was for me was playing against bad O-linemen. Why? Because they did wiered unpredictable crap and where impossible to read. When playing against a good OL you always got correct reads on the play and could react much much quicker to the play. Granted you could get your arse kicked much harder but you always knew what was going on from reading em.
Last night while learning my new ride (the F6F) I ran into BatfinkV in a Ki84. The 2nd time I engaged him I knew what he was going to do through the entire fight and could adjust to it. I knew he was gonna be slowing down the pace of the engagement, indeed so he did. When I got on his six I knew he would try to slow it down even more and try to get me to overshoot, indeed so he did.
Ive had the same experiences fighting other good pilots. Like when fighting good 190 pilots you know when to expect the rolling scissors and when to ease off in your engagement.
When fighting good pilots I know what they are gonna do, ofcourse since I still suck I do die to them but since one can read em much easier one can at least mentaly prepare for what is comming.
Another example is when one goes low in a merge and the enemy is going low with you and pushing it then one knows quite alot about how the engagement is gonna unfold. I know that he aint gonna go for a HO shot, I know he is gonna go high in his opening move, that he will fight for vertical position in all merges and I know Im gonna die. ;)
Seriously while the fight it self gets much harder it also gets much easier to read.
Personally I do prefer to fight the better pilots because since I like to "study the game" and they fly their planes "by the textbook" I can compensate some of my serious lacking in piloting ability with knowlage of what they are going to do.
Tex
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Is this a trick question?
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LOL, I don't have much to contribute to the post but your avatar is nice Tumor :D
That having said, sometimes you know you're facing a newbie and if see I usually push the engagement much more aggressively.
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Ok so how experienced have you be to make the other pilot beleave you are a newbie ?
Actually being predictable is a bad idea... so maybe instead of fighting batfink- style and just slowing down sudden pace and strategy changes could be more rewarding?
Or pressing low and instead of going up use a energy saving reversal and come back with speed low again?
That is more a theoretic question. When the otherone blasts away on the merge and goes past me still fireing at some place where no plane is i know i have a small chance... otherwise i just hope to learn a bit.
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Well ofcourse all pilots have their own way of fighting/defence, but most of all, many moves can be predicted by the plane they're flying.
For instance, P-47's will NOT turn when they have speed.
Fw-190's make scissors.
Spits will always turn.
Hurricanes and Tempests will try to HO
P-38 will try to outclimb you.
Etc :)
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I've sort of noticed this too... I'll use another sports analogy.
When I'm playing hockey against a very good opponent, my entire team pushes itself to beat them. We play our best, and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, but its always a really fun game. When we play an opponent that's not as good, we usually don't play as well and manage to win a sloppy victory, and sometimes get upset and look like haughty morons.
The same thing happens in Aces High... When you know you're fighting someone good you push yourself and try like mad to beat them. The fights are intense, and always a blast.
I see what you're saying - you can almost tell what someone is going to do, their experience just allows them to pull off the move in a way you can't quite match yet.
As far as not knowing what the inexperienced fellows are going to do, well, as long as you're familiar with their plane, at least you know what their plane is going to do. After that it basically comes down to predicting which way the fish will flop ;)
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Last night while learning my new ride (the F6F) I ran into BatfinkV in a Ki84.
I thought this was about fighting good pilots.
:D :D :D :D - Just kidding Bat. :D :D :D
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I don't consider it easier, but it is different. I'll merge in a neutral fashion against most opponents without favoring any particular angle or style. However, if I know my enemy and exactly how he flies, I'll adjust tactics accordingly to fly to his weaknesses. This puts me at an advantage over having merged neutrally with that player, but I would hardly call that "easier." Maybe "smarter" but not "easier."
-- Todd/Leviathn
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It works both ways.. leviathn flys one of the slowest planes at low alts against superior numbers all the time... drex will fly a P47 in a low slow turnfight with multiple enemies. Most good sticks will be able to get on your six moments after you have got on theirs.
Most unskilled players will make the same moves over and over too..
The only thing "unpredictable" is.... that you don't know the skill level till you engage...
That is why some of the really wussy sky accountants here will only engeage guys that are allready tied up with other players... wouldn't want to risk world fame and their precious score now...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Yeah, I think Lazs summed it up.
Also, you just can't say, "After 3 minutes fighting against a certain pilot, you will be dead." There's a lot to do with luck in how a fight comes out or how fast it ends.
I know I've been up against a lot of good pilots who have just missed a snapshot by inches only to have me get them right after.
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Lets just say that you know when you are up against someone who knows what they're doing, in about the first 3 seconds after the merge.
Then you start to sweat, or at least I do :)
Dan
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It's much easyer to fight good pilots. You'll be hanging in your chute in no time and try to find a noob again.
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Funniest thing happened to me the other day (Sat. I think).
I took up a Yak-9U from a base under attack. There were some guys getting buzy on the deck, so I got about 5k, and noticed an La sitting a bit away from the furball. So I head over towards him. On the first pass, he tries to rope me. We both stall the tops of our zooms at about the same time, giving neither the advantage.
He scoots away a bit, then comes back, tries the same thing a second time... exact same thing. Exact same result. I comment on the range vox: "This guy's suffering from a serious lack of talent" I figure that I'm about to get myself a pretty easy kill.
I'm not sure what happened next. We merged, and right away I thought "Uh oh" and just like that, he was on my 6. Damnit! lulled into a false sense of security lol. I took him to the deck a-rolling-and-a-jinkin. Begged for help from a countryman who was nice enough to save my ass. Turned out it was aka, hardly the n00b I figured I was facing.
-Sik
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I generally kill "competent" pilots in dissimilar planes faster than noobs (unless I guess what the noob is going to do on my first pass... 40% maybe) since they're easier to read, making it easier for me to position myself to tater them. A "competent" pilot in a similar plane will die quickly, but a fight with someone equally skilled in a similar plane will last until someone makes a mistake or gets cherry picked.
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I find it harder to kill sucky AH pilots than I do more experienced ones, yes. The sucky ones pull stupid things like take an HO or two and then run away, and then it takes forever to hunt down their cowardly butts and kill them. Or they don't know why, but they know if they flail around on the stick just right, they seem to live just a bit longer due to getting out of sync with the network lag and smoothing code. Both of those kinds of behaviors seem to come mostly from sucky players.
Against a really good player, I can usually tell within a few seconds if I'm going to win, lose, or have to pull out all the stops to even survive. In arena fighting I rarely have any reason to run so I usually give it 100% and try to win even when I think I'm outclassed, but even then a "long" fight with a talented player, regardless of if I win or lose, is usually shorter and more satisfying than dealing with a noob who can't do anything but HO and run, or flippety-flop back and forth.
I fought against Drex for several hours straight at one con, and it was great. We could talk about what was happening, and even though there was a huge furball going on in the exact same location, we'd find each other every single time just because we know each other's flying styles so well. You'd think that knowing exactly what the other guy was going to do would result in either a stalemate every time or one guy just totally dominating the other, but we swapped kills back and forth with Drex beating me by about a 2-1 or 5-2 ratio. And on top of that, our fights really didn't last all that long compared to how long it takes to nail a flippety-flop spaztic loser or an HO-then-run chicken. What they had was quality. The first one to make a mistake lost, every time. Against one of those 2 types of irritating noobs, either the noob gets lucky and kills you or you spend 20 minutes hunting him down just out of principle.
I chased a tiffy with my spit one night. He started out 5-10k above me, made a few passes, then dove for the deck before I even decided I needed to drop my ext fuel tank. I followed him around and finally killed him 20 min later when he turned 90 deg to try to HO someone else and I guess he forgot I was there. That fight sucked. No skill was involved anywhere, and I even had to down him mg only because I forgot to re-select my cannons after dropping my fuel tank. It was like creating a masterpiece marble scupture with a toothpick. Sure, you might get the job done in a lifetime, but that's the only thing you'll do for a long time and you'll hate it by the time you're finished.
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thats what i was thinking Mars :D
who is this batfink that he speaks off??
by watching my limited moves and reacting to them this caused you (Tex) to have an advantage the next time around after the first fight. so yes i would say its easier to fight someone you 'know' rather than someone who has 'skillz' to some degree.
The way i read it was: Tex got shot in good fight with me one on one. close one. then i was engaging two total noobs in spits or something and see tex coming back in. as i see Tex at my low 11 coming in fast i merge with another spit in my usual fashion, using the same reversal type merge i used on Tex. Tex then reads this perfectly as obviously his memory of it is fresh, and counters perfectly to end up 400 off my tail as i shoot the spit down. (if i remember correctly.)
i then try to lose him with some tight turns and rolls but he sticks perfectly on me, just out of gun range. I realise im not going to lose him easy and slow right down and go for a climbing spiral overshoot. But Tex has wised up after the last fight and blasts me good right in the head as we both stall at the top.
great fight was sent over 200 by both and S! from me to the victor.
You're a damn fine stick Tex, dont underestimate yourself.
in my mind the outcome would have been very different had Tex not been aware of A) what style i was using right then. and B)who exactly was flying the plane.
the only newbie i hate to encounter is the constant flat turner.
you pull up in merge only to find your opponent 2k below looking for you.
you dive in unseen and expect at least a counter, but he just goes round, and round and round.
If you stupidly try to follow him you will never catch him. you got to keep your advantage in these situations and expect poor flying.
I definitely kill better pilots faster, or they kill me.
neewbies are either easy kills within seconds or a damn pain in the butt :)
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Originally posted by mars01
I thought this was about fighting good pilots.
Yeah if you call Bat a good pilot, you got a long road ahead:D :p :D j/k Bat!
Originally posted by lasersailor184
There's a lot to do with luck in how a fight comes out or how fast it ends.
Luck= practice meeting opportunity. I've been practicing with a really good pilot for about 3 solid months now. When I first started and would get a chance to get a shot on him, I'd think it was just luck. Most the time, I'd just get my butt handed to me. Now, I can normally put up a good fight, get low % snapshots and even manage a kill from time to time( I still pretty much get beat like a little noob though:). Has my luck increased? No, it's just from the repeated atttempts(practice) I can push my plane harder and get around on maneuvers faster and maybe get a shot(opportunity). Just my point of veiw:D
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I’ll have to agree with you TEX – Fighting someone of better skill usually brings about the best in someone. Your definitely on the edge of your chair – least I am. Fight someone of lesser skill and there is a tendency to enter the engagement flat and over confident. This can easily lead to mistakes.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Yeah if you call Bat a good pilot, you got a long road ahead:D :p :D j/k Bat!
Luck= practice meeting opportunity. I've been practicing with a really good pilot for about 3 solid months now. When I first started and would get a chance to get a shot on him, I'd think it was just luck. Most the time, I'd just get my butt handed to me. Now, I can normally put up a good fight, get low % snapshots and even manage a kill from time to time( I still pretty much get beat like a little noob though:). Has my luck increased? No, it's just from the repeated atttempts(practice) I can push my plane harder and get around on maneuvers faster and maybe get a shot(opportunity). Just my point of veiw:D
Oh you guys think are really good, flying your little spitVs, doing your h HO merges. Pffffft, next time I will bring my plane. We will se who is the best then. :lol :lol :lol :lol
http://falkrosenthal.de/download/sf_bilder/bird_o_p1.jpg
BRING IT ON
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My opinion; a good pilot is not someone who shoots the most people down. but the one who can handle the most types of aircraft.
We can all shoot down someone in a spit, but it takes alot to become a 'good' pilot of the spit.
It's often those who have the most luck and menage to avoid getting shot :)
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Looks like an La7 to me Dedalos hehehe
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Originally posted by lazs2
The only thing "unpredictable" is.... that you don't know the skill level till you engage...
I get what Tex is saying, but I identify much better with lazs' statment. The mistake for me that is hard not to make is flying the same way that works fine aginst 95% of pilots, only to realize too late that your engaging one of the 5%.
I like Sik's story. I enjoy handing out that tactic when I get a chance. Which is to set a pattern...then brake it. It is fun to do both in E advantaged and disadvantaged situations. Sometimes I go out of my way to telegraph what Im going to do to set the pattern.
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Originally posted by frank3
It's often those who have the most luck and menage to avoid getting shot :)
There is some luck on the part of whether your aginst that rare sharpshooter, but imo consistantly 'almost' getting shot is a fine artform.
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If the other guy (n00b LA7) runs, I consider that a win on my part.
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I think what you're experiencing is 'good' players trying ACM on you in 'specialized' aircraft (aka Energy fighters).
When you face a pilot with poor skills, he will almost always be in a plane with exceptional performance...aka LA7, N1K, Ki84, F4U-C (for the cannon spray and pray).
Its in those planes that those with little skill that they pull off those crazy manouvers that make them 'difficult' in some cases.
Of course, there's also GOOD pilots who have learned how to abuse some of the things that give those planes the exceptional performance to their best advantage. Some may call it skill, I call it cheating... but theres some stuff you can pull with the N1K just by turning off the engine thats just unbelievable.
and yes, I dont play the game anymore so I dont mind having you peeps experience all the newbs and vets that will begin to experiment the engine off on the n1k exploit :P
enjoy :D
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I am in agreement with ya EN4CER, Murder you do it very welll like poetry when telegraphing and suckering in some foolish fool ( "ME" ROFL )
Laz had good comment as well.
eagl,
you said:
Against a really good player, I can usually tell within a few seconds if I'm going to win, lose, or have to pull out all the stops to even survive.
you lost your mental picture if you get to thinking you have already lost or gonna have to pull out all stops to survive, by the way someone is flying or as you interpet their style.
eagl then you said:In arena fighting I rarely have any reason to run so I usually give it 100% and try to win even when I think I'm outclassed, but even then a "long" fight with a talented player, regardless of if I win or lose, is usually shorter and more satisfying than dealing with a noob who can't do anything but HO and run, or flippety-flop back and forth.
My Advice or Opinion/comment would be never enter a fight with out thinking you are gonna win and be the last man standing! PERIOD! once you even let a stinch of worry creep into your mind it breaks down your agressiveness.
I am not a all mighty cocky type individual nor do I act one, but I practice at every opportunity to keep my mindset as "I am unbeatable" "I Am Going TO Win Hands Down" STAY POSITIVE and Agressive all times! even if I am in a 3 or 4 on 1 situation and everyone around me knows I am going to die/be shot down in flames.
In my view or opinion, letting just a taste of "maybe I will lose" or "maybe I can survive" slip in your mind ( my mind ) will get you killed faster!
I was just using your thoughts eagl, not trying to pick on you.
Nothing is over til it is over ~S~
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I've noticed this a lot over time as well Tex. Back when I was a sprouting noob (well, still am now, but thats beside the point), I had many fights with some very good sticks; Estes and Wldthng to name two.
After fighting them a few times each, I began to realize what they were going to do. In fact, I got to a point where I could predict how the fight was going to play out before it even began. The only problem I faced was that I didn't know how to counteract each of their moves.
To put it into context, about 90% of the time, Estes would cut his throttle at about 2k out, drop flaps, and wait for the merge. Just before we merged, he would use rudder and his stick to do a quick, rolling loop which is hard to describe in words. If I wasnt dead right there, I was most of the time below him and starting to stall out. He, on the other hand, had some E and was above me. What he usually did was make a flat circle and wait for me to stall out. After I was falling down, in he swept and took me with ease.
I can tell you all day how he did his moves and what moves he would do and when, but I could never duplicate or counter them.
The good sticks always have a way to pick their moves and just do them better, plain and simple.
Sorry for the long post. Most of this has been hit in other posts, but I got caught up in typing. :)
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Sometimes, it does get pretty easy to predict what the better sticks are gonna do, because what they do is logical. For instance, when I meet good Spitfire or N1K pilots and swoop down to attack them, they would;
1) act as if they didn't see me
2) slightly rock wings
3) go into a slow turn
4) then suddenly engage the classic 'turning barrel roll' overshoot
and etc etc.
If someone has enough experience, when he sees 1) and 2), 3) and 4) are pretty much predictable sequences. Ofcourse, that doesn't mean I can counter everymove, or I'm as good as those pilots. It only means I've been suckered that way so many times that after a while, you can see what they are doing.
On the other hand, sometimes, fighting n00bs can actually get harder than one thinks, since they do illogical things. How is anyone gonna predict what their enemy will do, when the enemy himself doesn't know what he's doing?
Of course, there's also GOOD pilots who have learned how to abuse some of the things that give those planes the exceptional performance to their best advantage. Some may call it skill, I call it cheating... but theres some stuff you can pull with the N1K just by turning off the engine thats just unbelievable.
On a side note, we can now visually confirm (at least, indirectly) if the engine is off or not. I was fighting a F4U-1C in a 109G in some heavy low-speed scissoring action when suddenly, a short smoke trail fumed from the Hog.
I didn't hit him even once, so I was confused... and then I realized that he just turned his engine on.
T'was a pretty cool thing to see.
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And what makes it special fun is occasionally the best sticks get careless and sometimes the worst sticks get lucky.
Circus maxim: You're only as good as your last performance.
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The true sign of a great pilot is when you get tricked or rused into fighting on thier terms. The P-38 pilot who uses his zoom and lack of torque in a way you fail to notice until commited, the spit pilot who makes the predicatble turns until that one moment when in your blind spot, the F6F pilot who comes at you from an oblique angle, hiding his very high energy state and you dont realize you cant outrun him till its too late.
These are the ways of the top guns....Ive been on the giving and the recieving end of these tactics, and doing them is difficult, mastering them is a commitment most are unable to make.
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I dunno.. I am agressive. I attack right off if it is only one or three guys... if they are not good and don't get lucky I will probly win.. if I attack someone like say levi or drex that way I will be in too deep to survive... If I know it is a good pilot I use a little more caution and the results are better.
I would probly be better off treating every plane like a potential super stud pilot but that would take a lot of the action out of the game and hence... the fun.
The ideal is to be able to kill anyone in any situation at any disadvantage... there are a few in the game that aproch that level.. I never will be but... I will not let that get in the way of having fun.
lazs
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Depends on your definition of "good". :)
It's somebody good when it's "easier"... right up until they kill you.