Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Shuckins on March 14, 2005, 09:13:08 PM
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In the Parade section of Sunday's newspaper (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette) there was an article about the salaries earned by people in various occupations around the United States.
Considering the levels of criticism being leveled at our educational system in the United States, I think it is significant that starting salaries for teachers in many areas are less than $25 thousand a year.
If these criticisms are valid, can it not be said that we're getting what we pay for? How can the educational system attract the best and the brightest with such low salaries? How can a teacher's family make ends meet with such a salary as the main source of income?
One would have to possess a real sense of self-sacrifice and duty to adopt a career with such little monetary reward.
How many of you seriously considered a career as a teacher, but changed your mind because of the opportunity to earn more money elsewhere?
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I saw passionate teachers that knew their line of work get **** on daily in school. I had no desire to become a teacher.
There are good teachers that like their line of work and don't mind their pay, then there are the rest which pretty much constitute 65% of the system... and I think I'm being a little low on the percentage.
But yes, I think the pay is screwed up... but if the pay were higher would we see higher standards of education from the teachers? With the current crop, no.
-SW
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my father retired from teaching a few years ago here in massachusetts
in this state it's becoming sad how the veteran staff is being bought out to retire so they can put new guys fresh out of college in at half the cost...
the turnover my last few years in high school and after is amazing. if i went back there now 5 years later i dont think i'd know more then a 3rd of the staff
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Counter logic.
Those schools are not hiring people because of the low salary, but because of the location. Because of the location and the types of people around those locations, it will steadily decline and become worse and worse. There is no remedy for this other then moving away.
Say that you put a very nice school in the dead center of the worst neighborhood of philadelphia. The starting salary is 100k a year. How many good teachers do you think you'll attract?
I could never be a teacher myself. Apparently saying, "Shut the **** up" and chucking erasers is a no no these days.
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If you think teachers get poor pay try the military.
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The teacher is only one part of 3 that are needed to insure learning happens. I'm not just talking about the physical facilities either.
The teacher is the first part, the second is the student and the third are the parents. If all 3 are not involved don't expect much from the kid by the time they graduate. Too many parents view school as a place to dump their kids and forget about them for 7 or 8 hours. They expect the school to raise their kids for them. If the parents don't care about their kids education the kid certainly won't. The teacher can't handle it alone.
With mandatory passing of the lil' darlings there is no reason for the kid to produce up and through high school. They learn fast that they get promoted whether they work or not. It doesn't catch up until they get out and find out they have to really work to get paid or that the college prof won't pass them just for showing up.
The kids who have a parent(s) who is actively involved in their kids education really perform and behave differently. They know mom and dad will hear from the teacher if they don't.
The teachers who stay do it not for the money but because they love teaching. The lack of a really decent salary does eliminate a lot of folks from the profession. When you can't provide for the family or own a home on what you get paid it takes little thought to start taking care of yourself by moving to another career field. It's a shame as many of the brightest new teachers are leaving quickly. On the average most leave the job in the first 5 years, just when they would be getting the most effective in the classroom.
Don't forget the requirement for continuing education for teachers which they have to pay for out of their own pocket in most districts. The are required to take 6 units or more a year of graduate classes. Those hours aren't cheap. In Arizona if you do not get the minimum hours of continuing education the state pulls your teaching certificate.
With the crap that teachers have to put up with in the classroom (particularly middle school and high school), the lack of a decent wage, lack of funding for supplies needed in the classroom and lack of support from parents, why would anyone stay there?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
There are good teachers that like their line of work and don't mind their pay, then there are the rest which pretty much constitute 65% of the system... and I think I'm being a little low on the percentage.
A lot of good teacher do mind their pay. I have 11 years of college under my belt; I paid for it all myself. I make less than the average white guy of my age who only has high school diploma. I mind that very much. I have a wife (stay at home) and three kids; we scrape by and do without. I often contemplate leaving my profession for a job with a reasonable pay. I am considered to be an excellent and innovative teacher.
In my school there are three single women who get by on their salary; the rest are all married women whose husbands earn a good income. Combined they do OK to well. Teaching isn’t a real career; it’s a supplemental job that now generally requires a master’s degree and a heck of a lot of responsibility. I don’t know many teachers who truly earn a living by teaching.
eskimo
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Oh, this would be a good thread for Kieren to chime in on.
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A teacher's salary provides a family with a fair, and only fair, secondary income.
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It seems to me that it's just too hard to become a school teacher. My next-door neighbor is one. She busted her butt getting her degree and then, she had to do all the course work to get her teaching credential.
I don't know why anyone would do it. Hell, it takes five to six years to become a teacher, maybe a year less, if you fast-track on your degree. It's not worth it. By the time they finish all the schooling, it seems that the teachers are just a wee-bit overqualified to be instucting six-year olds on how to fingerpaint.
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I was planning to becoming a History Teacher, until I drop out most of the College Classes that required for becoming a teacher and I really don't know what kind of career what i want, but i guess aviation is final.
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30K seem's to be an average salary for a starting teacher. In today's economy that's not too bad for a starting salary.
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A grade school teacher has to go through a gauntlet of certifications to become licensed to teach including a masters degree and nerve racking session called student teaching – usually varies depending on the state. My heart goes out to them because at an even higher level of education is the college professor who - again depending on the college usually requires either a masters degree or doctorate but no student teaching or other certifications are required. In other words grade school teachers are far more certified than college professors to teach yet often less paid in my humble opinion. Just because you are incredibly smart regarding a given subject does not mean you have the ability to teach it to others. The system is just not quite right. If you’re not sure than let me sum it up in two words for you – Ward Churchill – who I don’t consider too smart.
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My mother is a year and a half from retirement. She's an 8th grade algebra and advanced math teacher with 23-1/2 years experience. Care to take a guess what she makes working in a public school system near Columbus, OH. She'll retire and in her last year will make a whopping $60,000. She also lives in a different school district (where my younger brother and I are both finished) paying a stupid sum of money into that system so they can buy their new computers and hire airhead teachers. She also has to continue her education and has minimum requirements for college credits she must take every number of years to keep her teaching certificate.
Some of the things that the schools are doing now are a joke. The different tests for this and that. I completely disagree with the new SAT essay's because there is no way (it is impossible) for them to be graded with any standard. You can't question the reliability or validity of the SAT's of old. Everyone took the same test to the same standard and by god the tests measured what they were supposed to measure. Now an essay? Please! I recieved a 4 (out of a possible 5) on my AP U.S. History exam in High School. I am convinced the only reason I scored that high is I provided an entertaining essay to the poor teacher who was stuck in a room wearing his or her winter coat while 55º Air Conditioning is pumped into the room. The best part is, I didn't realize I wrote about the wrong thing until I was proofreading the essay with about 5 minutes left to finish the test. I had written three pages about JFK, the Cuban Missile Crisis and the early 60's cold war climate. I went back to read the question which started off with "Excluding President Kennedy's..."
"Ruh Ro" I said. I wrote a blurb which I can hardly claim to be a paragraph on the back of the paper while saying something about the Interstate Highway System and saying how great Eisenhower was. I did the essay on the wrong damn thing and got a good grade. Who's to say that someone else won't be graded the opposite (or the same for that matter) completely bogus if you ask me.
Back to the SAT. My 1450 (out of 1600) wasn't bad. ACT I scored 28 (I think) and fell asleep during a riveting reading portion which talked about the life habits of crows. I didn't need to write an essay...if I had. Who's to say that either my handwriting isn't perfect or that the teacher grading is just having a bad day? Anytime you add people in the mix for STANDARDIZED tests...you're just throwing a giant monkey wrench into the works. I'm glad I'm done and only have one semester to go until I have my 4 year degree. I don't envy today's kids who are getting a mediocre education at best and are taking more pills for more attention, stress, antisocial and self esteem than who knows what.
(Was there even a point to any of this...maybe I'm just sleepy)
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
If you think teachers get poor pay try the military.
Good point but flawed. Teaching requires a 4 year college degree in most cases. Their equivilant in the military would be a comissioned officer who makes ALOT more than most teachers.
It's sad but true people don't want to teach becaues of the money.
it's because they want their summers off. ;)
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I'm actually going to school to become a teacher, hopefully a High School History teacher... Hopefully at the same high school I was permanently banned from going to the office at... That whole "Circle of Life" thing, ya know :D
The one thing I've got going for me is I go to Central CT State University, which really does have one of the best "teacher schools" in the country, believe it or not. I've heard graduating from Central really helps cut through a lot of redtape that you'd normally have applying in various states with degrees from other schools.
The pay will suck, sure. But I figure if I marry another teacher we could at least survive. Maybe not have the nicest things and all, but I'd be doing something I love (wait a minute... yer gonna PAY me to read about history? :confused: ), I'd actually be able to sleep well at night (work for a law firm now), and I could pretty much choose which part of the country I'd like to live in.
Hopefully, I'll make it more than 5 years >shrug<
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VUdak and Eskimo, and all the other teachers. Considering the importance of your work, its a shame the salary isn't better.
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It seems this is international. It annoys the hell out of me that in our societies, those who make money are valued far higher than those who help form people!
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Originally posted by Shuckins
A teacher's salary provides a family with a fair, and only fair, secondary income.
But if you took that salary and figured how much they would make if they worked year round. It in many cases would easily be a nice primary salary.
They only work a little more then half the year so honesty they get little pity from me.
If your in it for the money then I suggest ya find a new line of work
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Good point but flawed. Teaching requires a 4 year college degree in most cases. Their equivilant in the military would be a comissioned officer who makes ALOT more than most teachers.
It's sad but true people don't want to teach becaues of the money.
O1 2nd Lieutenant 2 years or less $26,204.40
That does not seem like much more to me. You put in at least twice the hours and risk life and limb as well. I'm not saying you can compare the two jobs side by side since they are apples and oranges. I'm simply pointing out that teachers are not that bad off comparatively.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
O1 2nd Lieutenant 2 years or less $26,204.40
That does not seem like much more to me. You put in at least twice the hours and risk life and limb as well. I'm not saying you can compare the two jobs side by side since they are apples and oranges. I'm simply pointing out that teachers are not that bad off comparatively.
That's just the base pay. You have to consider all the other things that the military provides... food, housing, health care, etc.
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true enough but that can be subjective..
When I was Infantry most of the time my housing consisted of my sleeping bag, my food was MRE's when available and my health care was the battalion aid station.
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It's a darn good part time job.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
It's a darn good part time job.
lazs
I dunno... I can't see the point of spending four to five years in school to get a part-time job.
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To be honest, I don't think current military pay is too low.
An average 37 year-old O-5 has a lifestyle equivalent to a civilian counterpart making over $100,000 per year. Housing, complete family medical, dental and eye care, taxpayer supported and tax free commissary and exchange and recreation facilities (golf courses, bowling, swimming pools, state-of-the-art fitness centers) only base pay is subject to income tax, etc.
Fort Ord has a better golf course than Pebble Beach, for heaven's sake.
I know an overseas stationed O-6 who clears $12,000 month and is taxed on only 1/3rd of that and still lives rent free in a magnificant home (some would say a mansion). Sheesh, every one star (do you how many flag rank officers there are?) even has a government paid maid now. They are bloody aristocrats.
Not a bad life now. When I was in, we got paid in cash every month, it was so little. :eek:
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Your numbers are off Rolex. The pay increase isn't all that much from pay grade to paygrade.
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Sandman, you work 7-3 every week day. You always have weekends off. You always have holidays off, even if it's some wierd remote hindu holiday. You have a spring break, you have a winter break, you have a thanksgiving break. You have an entire summer off. And you get paid like you were working the whole year.
This ain't no 3-8pm part time grocery store clerk we're talking about.
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When I got out of the Navy twelve years ago, they provided a pay and benefit calculator. The purpose was to determine what an equitable salary would be in the civilian job market. I was an E-6, married, two kids, and living in a house on base.
The amount was approximately $35K per year.
I got out and took a job for $36K per year with no apparent change to my standard of living.
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It isn't pay. Base pay is what is taxed. Allowances are not taxed. Flight pay, housing allowances, cost of living allowances, dependent allowances, separate rations (in the old days) etc.
How much would private 100% health insurance for a family of four cost per month? Let's say $300. You would have to earn $450 before taxes to have $300 left to pay the monthly bill.
How much for 100% dental?
How much for prescriptions?
How much for housing?
See how it works when you add it up?
{patiently waiting for someone to say, "family of 4 health insurance for only $300 per month? Are you nuts?... :) }
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Sandman, you work 7-3 every week day. You always have weekends off. You always have holidays off, even if it's some wierd remote hindu holiday. You have a spring break, you have a winter break, you have a thanksgiving break. You have an entire summer off. And you get paid like you were working the whole year.
This ain't no 3-8pm part time grocery store clerk we're talking about.
No question... if it's a part-time gig, it's one of the best ones out there. ;)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
How many of you seriously considered a career as a teacher, but changed your mind because of the opportunity to earn more money elsewhere?
Both the wife and I did that.
[edit] Also; I didn't think I could put up with the little bastards. [/edit]
-Sik
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Originally posted by Rolex
It isn't pay. Base pay is what is taxed. Allowances are not taxed. Flight pay, housing allowances, cost of living allowances, dependent allowances, separate rations (in the old days) etc.
How much would private 100% health insurance for a family of four cost per month? Let's say $300. You would have to earn $450 before taxes to have $300 left to pay the monthly bill.
How much for 100% dental?
How much for prescriptions?
How much for housing?
See how it works when you add it up?
{patiently waiting for someone to say, "family of 4 health insurance for only $300 per month? Are you nuts?... :) }
I know what your saying rolex, what I'm saying is that those don't add up as much as you think. I just have to look at my wifes Paystub to tell you that. As far as pay being comparable it all depends. For example, as a Resident my wife makes more than civilians do. Once she passes her last exams after residency she will make 1/2 to 1/3rd of what she would make as a civilian. It all depends on what you are comparing.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Fort Ord has a better golf course than Pebble Beach, for heaven's sake.
]
I thought they closed Fort Ord years ago but kept Hunter Ligget open.
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Drediok you say
"They only work a little more then half the year so honesty they get little pity from me"
Now I don't know about the US, but that statement is not true. teaching is not just the time you spend in the classroom. There is marking papers, preparing the curriculum, research, SATs, monitoring and evaluation parent evenings, meetings, school outings and trips ( residentials) etc.
I was married to a primary school teacher. She would be in school by 7-30am to prepare the work for the day. She would get home at 5-30pm. Eat then maybe an hour to unwind then she would work till 11-00pm/12-00am marking papers, childrens work etc.
Thats a bloody long day by anyone's standards. As for the so called long holidays. All but a few days of these were taken up by preparing the next terms curriculum. On top of that the Govt dept of education would constantly shift the goal posts meaning that the curriculum would always have to be changed.
So That statement about teaching being a part time job is frankly a load of cr*p.
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You're right about the medical field, rabbit^2. Big difference there.
And i should have typed 'had' a better golf course. :)
Speaking of golf courses, have you seen the proposed new carrier? The USS Bill Clinton
(http://tech-rep.org/images/cvn.jpg)
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it still needs the fluff girls running about...>
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You guys who say teaching is a part time job have got a pretty short sighted view of teaching. My dad has been a teacher for over 30 years now and he is the hardest working man I know.
Like Skydancer said, time spent at school is not all a teacher is required to do. There is grading and lesson plans that take up a great deal of time. And the end of the quarter always requred late nights.
I can't speak for other schools but my dad was required to be at school a couple weeks before school starts and a couple after, so it was a short summer. The summer was spent planning for next year and taking classes required to keep his certification. What little time was left was spent working construction, demolition or any other job he could get to make ends meet.
Like Eskimo is doing for his family, I was raised in a single income family. We pinched pennys all through my childhood but it was a great childhood and I wouldn't trade it for all the money in the world.
He made such an impression on me that I too am raising a family on one income. Keep up the good work Eskimo. It's hard but it's the right thing to do.
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teachers are so under appreciated sometimes, sigh.
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Im sorry But at least in Michigan, Teachers are not underpaid. When you take into the amount of time /days they work, and there amazing benifits They work out great.
25,000 to start? i know lots of people that are out of school that make that starting off. I would like to know how much these teachers make after 10+ years of working. what about what they retire with, and what they get after that? Holidays?, most people i know work holidays, we dont get weeks off at a time for holidays, unless you work for the big 3, you are expected to work them.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
You guys who say teaching is a part time job have got a pretty short sighted view of teaching. My dad has been a teacher for over 30 years now and he is the hardest working man I know.
Like Skydancer said, time spent at school is not all a teacher is required to do. There is grading and lesson plans that take up a great deal of time. And the end of the quarter always requred late nights.
Umm i dont know about the rest of you, but I dont know many people that only work 9-5. most people work from home after they leave work. and working on vacations is normal for some people i know....
At most companys i have worked for, salery people work 50 hours min. alot of times more...
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Originally posted by Trell
Umm i dont know about the rest of you, but I dont know many people that only work 9-5. most people work from home after they leave work. and working on vacations is normal for some people i know....
At most companys i have worked for, salery people work 50 hours min. alot of times more...
Wow, I'm a lot more fortunate than I ever thought!
-Sik
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Yeah, teachers should get paid minimum $80k a year.
Its the *most* important job there is.
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Teachers get paid crap ... i've knowen quite few that get an education degree and give up teaching for such bull....and because some of them spend all thier time teaching state required tests, and never get to 'teach'... there's many reasons it's screwd up, the whole education system ... fact is noone really cares on a large scale ... only localy do you get that .... Damn FED's
Most other balcholer degrees I can think of typicaly pays ton's more than a public school teacher will ever get .... Why would you want to goto college and be a teacher..... to service society? Becuase you love it? Only so many saints in the world........
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Those of you who think teaching is a part time job just because of the school year should go try it sometime. I've done it and I found that t6he full time job working 48 to 50 weeks a year was by far easier. It also didn't require continuing education at one of the highest rates available for graduate classes.
Here's a challenge for you. If you have a Bachelors degree take some time and try substitute teaching for a while. You will be surprised how many jobs there are. You will be absolutely shocked at the conditions teachers face with the lil' darlings in school. For a REAL treat, do it in middle school.
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Maverik
Applause for you mate. People who slate teachers, just don't know what they are on about. The hardest job I ever did. Mind you I was working with kids in the care system. So they had mutiple behaviour, psychological problems to add to all the other stuff a teacher deals with.
My advise to anyone criticising the proffession is go try it. You'll soon change your mind.
( good job I didn't teach English ):lol
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Originally posted by Rolex
You're right about the medical field, rabbit^2. Big difference there.
And i should have typed 'had' a better golf course. :)
Speaking of golf courses, have you seen the proposed new carrier? The USS Bill Clinton
(http://tech-rep.org/images/cvn.jpg)
Offtopic, but... I think the Navy made a mistake in 1980 by setting a new precedent and naming a ship after someone living. Then, they repeated the mistake on CVN-76 and CVN-77.
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Originally posted by Sandman
That's just the base pay. You have to consider all the other things that the military provides... food, housing, health care, etc.
Hmmmm... the Military provides food? Which Branch? Not in the Army. Provides housing? Only after months on a waiting list and the loss of your basic quarters allolwance, provides health care? mostly it forced heath care in which you have no saying who you get as a Dr.... Hmmmm you also forgot free travel, you get to uproot the Family and move only to reestablish you houshold again. Did I mention the free *cough* of Family separation? For only a few Months or a couple of years.
So these are the benifits that you need to consider that the Military provides on top of your measly base pay.
I know... cuz I did my 20.
I always get a laugh outta people like Sandman that believe the Military benifits are worth more than money in a Familys pocket.
:rofl
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Originally posted by AWMac
I always get a laugh outta people like Sandman that believe the Military benifits are worth more than money in a Familys pocket.
:rofl
I did 10 years in the Navy, and that's not what I said. The point is that the military does provide things that you have to pay for on the outside so you can't really compare a military salary to a civilian salary straight across the board.
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Originally posted by Sandman
... I was an E-6, married, two kids, and living in a house on base...
Nothing about the military irritated me more than the extra pay and benifits afforded to those "married with children".
You get extra, not because you are more skilled or have more time in grade or...
...bleh, still kinda pisses me off.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I did 10 years in the Navy, and that's not what I said. The point is that the military does provide things that you have to pay for on the outside so you can't really compare a military salary to a civilian salary straight across the board.
Amen, I can agree with that. Maybe I misread what you typed. I scrolled back and still reads the same. But not as outlandish as Rolex.
:aok :rofl
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Originally posted by Furious
Nothing about the military irritated me more than the extra pay and benifits afforded to those "married with children".
You get extra, not because you are more skilled or have more time in grade or...
...bleh, still kinda pisses me off.
**** you Staff Sgt Dave Fischer, USFA, you can kiss my Navy ass....
Sorry, Having a flashback there. Man that used to piss me off royally. "Paid to procreate" **** that lol.
-Sik
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The pay must be low, because school officials are recruiting foreign teachers to fill in the blanks. I know, because my brother just went to Loudoun County, VA to be on some sort of trial for a few weeks, to be then hired later if everything goes well.
Quite a few school districts in areas with high population growth are sending "headhunters" here every year.
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It also depands on where you are located. It is tough finding a job in migigan from what i hear from some of my friends looking for school jobs. it is like everywhere else. some places better then others.
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Originally posted by Furious
Nothing about the military irritated me more than the extra pay and benifits afforded to those "married with children".
You get extra, not because you are more skilled or have more time in grade or...
...bleh, still kinda pisses me off.
I can't blame ya for not like it... But hell, I wasn't about to turn extra money down.
Now... to put it in a different perspective... Most recruits are in the 18-19 year-old range. Almost none of them are raising families at that time. By the time a sailor starts to raise a family, he's probably an E-4 or an E-5 and nearing the end of his enlistment. The Navy absolutely must provide some added incentive if they expect to retain trained personnel beyond the first enlistment. Sure, it's not fair to the single guys, but by and large, I think the Navy ultimately benefits by creating this incentive.
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Originally posted by takeda
The pay must be low, because school officials are recruiting foreign teachers to fill in the blanks. I know, because my brother just went to Loudoun County, VA to be on some sort of trial for a few weeks, to be then hired later if everything goes well.
Quite a few school districts in areas with high population growth are sending "headhunters" here every year.
If your brother needs an immigration attorney, let me know.
-Sik