Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TexMurphy on March 15, 2005, 07:36:30 AM
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Im now on my 4th plane that Im trying to learn.
So far ive flown Yak9U, SpitV and SpitIX in chronological order and learned them pretty well, at least for a relativly new pilot (still not more then 6 months of duty).
My next plane Im trying to learn is the F6F.
Reason I choose the F6F is that I want to learn flap management. The Yak thought me alot about gunnery (due to low ammo count), the spit V alot about turn fighting and the spit 9 e-fighting. Another of the reasons I choose the F6F is that it doesnt have a "safe option" in either turn or speed.
Im starting to come to terms with my hellcat now after a few nights of extreamly embarasing performance. Still struggle abit with its dive accelleration and my timeing but Ill manage that on my own.
What I do need help with is "wtf do I do" with certain planes.
Especially what it comes down to is the Ki84 and the P38s.
From what I can tell the only thing I got on the Ki84 is dive. We are equaly fast, it has better accell (not counting dive), it can turn me and it can climb me. I dont like just diving away from em as I want to do something more creative and destructive to them. Question is what and how??
Next thing is the P38s. Im a bit of a question mark here. Partially due to the fact that I know very little on the performance of the new P38s.
As I understand it I got speed on the G model and it has turn on me. No reall problem I guess just deal with it as a spit.
But what about the J and L???? As I understand it its basicly a dead heat with these planes except that they got climb on me. Is that correct??
Is there something I have on these planes that I can exploit? Im thinkin roll rate, even though crap on the Hellkitty, could be a advantage.
I know it aint as much about what you face but who you face but I do like to have a general plan on how to deal with different planes.
So Id really like strategy tips on how to deal with 84s and 38s in a F6F.
Thanks in advance.
Tex
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The cat can outturn the 84 at speed and should loop better at that same higher speed.
The PJ should be a pretty even match all around but the P38L is easy prey unless you've got a really good stick in the cockpit.
Remember how the P38s compress. I've made many a P38 lawn dart chasing me to the deck.
:D
The F6 is a great plane once you get the feel for it.
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Hiya Tex
Both are close and tough fights for Hellkitty , as you have probably found.
Ki-84 is difficult, your only real advantage is high speed turn performance , the Kitty handles better at speed , so get in there while you are fast and kill him quickly. No point being timid he can run you down , and easily outclimb.
Everything else the KI-84 does better by quite a stretch. A smart KI-84 driver will just climb all over you from a co-e position.
The fight against a well-flown 38 is quite even until the 38's superior zoom and climb can make a long fight swing more in favour of the 38. It retains E much better and will wear you down in the vertical. If the fight gets flat you may have a chance , altho he will have a slight sustained turn advantage.
Again try for a very fast initial encounter , you will handle better at high speed than the 38.
They would be the two planes that can trouble you most in a Hellcat in 1-1 performance.
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lol just read goose's , looks like the answer is speed !
Probably why my favourite merge in a hellcat is always to go in fast - as fast as you can . Speed gives you some good merge options in the Hellcat.
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From your (redd and goose) answers and your previous tips (Redd) I take it that consealing my E in the merge is very important against these planes.
If I conseal my e in the merge I am more likely to prevent him from using the vertical right? Or at least Im able to work the vertical more then he expects if I choose to do so.
But then Im assuming Im in a at least co-e situation with him. That is another area I really need to work at and one which flying the spits has made me a bit sloppy with. The spits beeing able to build energy so fast allowing me to be reactive to low energy situaitons instead of proactive.
Tex
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As an 84 pilot, seeing an F6F only worries me because some excellent pilots like Redd fly them routinely. Ki84s eat F6Fs alive, unless the F6F plays very aggressively while the speed is high. If you let me evade long enough to bring the fight slow, you're either dead or you're about to run away. The most dangerous F6Fs know that after I evade a pass (and almost all can be evaded provided speed is between 225-350) I can rebuild E quickly, so they get back on me very quickly. Other than that little worthless knowledge, you're best off listening to Redd. Gimme a shout on the Synergy forums if you want to play around a bit in the DA. Would love to try some 1on1s where you have a good E advatange on merge. :)
As a final option, you can always get away if you have some alt. Only a foolish Ki84 pilot will dive after an F6F and risk losing his elevators.
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Id love to have a shakedown with a uber Ki84 pilot like you Engine.
So far Ive found that the best way to learn is to go up against extreamly good pilots in the DA. Its extreamly painfull but if one constantly tries to improve in that situation one will come out a much better pilot in the MA.
Tex
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Ain't that the truth! There's only so far you can go in the MA. I know I've reached my plateau. Really good 1on1s with great pilots are rare, and as a result, when I do meet them I sometimes get lucky but usually get worked over and don't learn much from it besides "Wow, I screwed that up by assuming they were a newb".
Set a time Tex, I'm workin from 9-5pm EST. Have some bacon at your girl's house and stay up all night, we'll do it. :)
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Was soo much easier when you where an unemployed bum... ;)
With my new job there is just no way I can do late nights at week days anymore. So I guess we will have to do it during a weekend.
Tex
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Only weekend day I have free is Sundays, usually in the afternoon which I think is about 7pm-12am your time?
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250 to 300mph is the sweet spot for the f6f. It can hang with just about any plane in the game at those speeds. You can tangle with better turning planes like spits and come out ahead, but you gotta get your shot quickly and not miss or your in trouble. Against planes like the spitfire and Ki-84 the longer the fight lasts the harder it will be to walk away from.
Someone else mentioned it but something I always try to do is go into the merge packing at least 300mph of speed with me. It'll let me go left/right/up/down do whatever I want. You can also take advantage of the fact that the hellcat can burn E at a remarkable rate, chop the throttle and you can get the nose around in a hurry, this is great against less experienced pilots as it can sometimes spook 'em into doing somthing stupid. Gotta warn ya though it will suck a LOT of E in the trade.
I'm not a hotshot sitck around here, plenty of guys that can whoop me good and proper, but I do have a lot of time in the hellcat if you have any questions that I could answer give a holler.
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F6F vs a good stick in a Ki84 in a fight below 300mph, you're going to lose. If you have some alt, dive a bit with him chasing you, and make a hard horizontal turn (do NOT immel against an 84), hope he tries to follow you, go vertical and come back down inside his turn for a snapshot. If you get down to low speeds and you don't have an advantage, you better hope he a) can't hit a damn thing, or b) has absolutely no throttle management. Don't follow an 84 vertical, they go up and up and up and up... and up. And then up some more. Your best bet is to give him your 6 at high speed and make him overshoot, since Ki's lose elevator authority at high speeds and as a result, don't bleed E too fast.
F6F vs. a 38 is probably a little more even... you pretty much only need to outfly him, and just avoid going vertical with them.
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Don't go verticle with the KI unless you have the energy to do it. All you gotta do is make him break hard once or twice and you can take him up all day long. 85% of the KI draivers around want to slow you down. Just force him slow while you stay fast and the shots will come.
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If an F6F makes is a BnZfest and keeps extending, I make it my mission to build up enough E to get him to commit.
Ren, here's the problem with staying fast; the Ki84 builds up energy superbly at low speeds, so if you don't get on me quickly after your pass, I can build up at least enough E to evade your next shot. I'd attempt to keep turning into you until you blow all your E trying for a shot. Eventually I'd get pissed off enough to take it personally and work hard for E parity.
Aside for being extremely aggressive, or BnZing indefinitely (worse option), I really don't know what else the F6F can do against a Ki84. Then again, I'm not the bestest F6F pilot, so what do I know? :)
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Originally posted by wetrat
F6F vs a good stick in a Ki84 in a fight below 300mph, you're going to lose.
never think this!
even if you know who the ki84 pilot is, and if you think he is a good pilot. Never enter a fight with the assumption he is better than you. Regardless of speed, always think , I can do this, I can beat this guy.
and follow the tips Redd, Goose, wetrat, Ren and others suggested. but never give in to losing before you ever get thru the 1st turn of the engagement. Regardless of who the other guy is flying the ki84, breaking the mindset of "he is better than me" is an important plateau to overcome!
Anyone can be better than any other on any given day! Regardless of the plane match-up ;)
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nono! It's pointless. Abandon All Hope.
It's over from the start, don't bother engaging any 84s.
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ROFL, I am ignoring Engine's last post!
Tex, you must learn everything that F6f-5 can do from the high speed end of the envelope to the stall speed end, finding out what this plane can do through out its entire flight envelope will open the door for more options and allow you to use them depending on the circumstances of which a fight is intiated regardless if you are the attacker or the defender. Knowing everything the plane can and can not do is ultimately important.
find out its corner velocity, its instantaneous turn rate/speed, its sustained turn rate speed, how slow can you really go, lowest speed for an immel, lowest speed for a double immel, lowest speed and lowest alt for a split S, etc inffinium!
learn everything about the plane! again, this will open up more doors for you to gain an upperhand.....
also, when to use flaps, when not to, how many notches of flaps do i need? roll rates with and without rudder, with and without flaps .
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Originally posted by Engine
Aside for being extremely aggressive, or BnZing indefinitely (worse option), I really don't know what else the F6F can do against a Ki84. Then again, I'm not the bestest F6F pilot, so what do I know? :)
I didn't say BNZ him. I said use the vertical. And this time I spelled vertical right :) A vertical fight doesn't neccesarily mean you're BNZ'n the guy.
IMHO a dogfight consists of many parts. It may be a pure knife fight that turns into a BNZ that turns into vertical fight that turns into a rolling scissors that turns back into a pure knife fight. Whew! :D The good pilots can switch the fight tactically to suit the requirements of the unfolding fight. Anyone who purely BNZ's is loosing out other advantages he may have at his disposal. Learn to use it all is my point.
Back to a KI, if I bend him into a break turn with any speed on you can bet I'll take him right up into a chandelle. He can follow at his own peril. If he doesn't I'll carry the speed into a rolling turn to an immediate shot. Why give him a chance to recover. 'Sides, you are reconverting the "up" back into E.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
never think this!
even if you know who the ki84 pilot is, and if you think he is a good pilot. Never enter a fight with the assumption he is better than you. Regardless of speed, always think , I can do this, I can beat this guy.
and follow the tips Redd, Goose, wetrat, Ren and others suggested. but never give in to losing before you ever get thru the 1st turn of the engagement. Regardless of who the other guy is flying the ki84, breaking the mindset of "he is better than me" is an important plateau to overcome!
Anyone can be better than any other on any given day! Regardless of the plane match-up ;)
OK, an amendment to my afformentioned statement. If you fight me at low speeds Ki84 vs F6F, you're going to lose. There are better sticks than me, some of whom fly the 84 on occasion, so you'll lose to them too :D 99% of the people you'll encounter suck, so it really doesn't matter what kind of plane you're fighting.
I go in to fights assuming the other guy is an incompetent dweeb, and 19/20 times, I'm right. Sometimes I get burned if it's a good stick who either knows it me, or I do something sloppy that only works on noobs, but usually you can tell if it's someone competent pretty quick.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I didn't say BNZ him. I said use the vertical. And this time I spelled vertical right :) A vertical fight doesn't neccesarily mean you're BNZ'n the guy.
BAD idea. 84's build up E very quickly, and are nimble enough to make you bleed some if you want to try to E fight one. Once that E gets even marginally close, the 84 can follow you up very, very easily, and blow you away. The 84 keeps elevator authority well under 100mph, and can basically float on the prop while you flop over at the top of your zoom. However, the average pilot won't know how to do any of this, so it really doesn't matter 90% of the time. You'll just have to worry about really hard flat turns...
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Hell, I almost never see another Ki84 in the air, and if I do, it's usually someone who knows what they're doing. It really is a spectacular performer, no idea why it doesn't see more usage. I do like it better this way, though. ;)
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Originally posted by Engine
Hell, I almost never see another Ki84 in the air, and if I do, it's usually someone who knows what they're doing. It really is a spectacular performer, no idea why it doesn't see more usage. I do like it better this way, though. ;)
It's rips things off (and in order :)) when going downhill. So you end up letting fast guys get away. If it didn't then it would be a very nice plane indeed. If I see a KI I go after it. Then again I'm not too particular. :D
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Pffft, let em run. Not like much of anything is going to catch a pony or lala coward who's determined to get home. At least in a Ki84 it's easier to make em feel stupid for making botched pass after pass. ;)
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Tiffie runs down a lot of ponys and la7's :)
Ren
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Give me a 2k alt advantage over your KI-84 and I'll call the pieces that I'm gonna knock off with each pass.
Tex, practice your gunnery in the F6. It is the key to a winning record I believe. I keep my convergence set at 400 or better and am confident I can hit my target inside d600. Ask engine :D
When you in that KI dive at a shallow angle to see what he's gonna do, hover over him a sec if you have to, when he makes his move drop the nose and in aggressively. They will break flat if they're smart and expect you to pull out. Don't, you can turn with him at this point and with a little practice the fight is over. You need a slight E adv for this to be the case of course. I agree, fly the cat aggressively...to a point ....and it will treat you well.
I'm well over 800 against S HAWK in his higher D9. But that's a different thred altogether
LOVE my Kitty!;)
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shawk sucks though :P
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Goose, did we fight at all this tour? I don't remember.
Oh wait, I guess we did. ;)
Engine has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times against GooseCH.
I AM THE BIGGER INTERNET TOUGH GUY! RAAAAWWWRRGGHULKRAGE
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LOL.
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I would advice you take a ride or two with greebo. He can fly that thing for sure. If i see a F6F cruising low on the deck i dont bother to attack anymore, chances are to high that its greebo.
Im still not sure what he does, but he uses the excelent low speed handling. Tries to get into a scissors style move and put the other plane off phase, so you get a reversal and eventually come at the other plane from 20 degrees off front to get a beautyfull shot on the whole profile of the enemy.
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Angles and E are your friend in F6F
When low and slow use your flaps and rudder to turn and burn.
F6F can hide energy extremely well and then it can dump that E in a hurry to stay on your tail.
I fly the thing exclusively. Though i'm not that great in it. Use angles and you can beat any plane you fly against. On a side note i've never gotten that thing to compress while diving.
Another thing you have to have is the confidence that no matter what plane your up against, you can beat him.
Yes i love the Hellcat. :)
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Flew the KI84 several sorties against a Navy attack at A40.
Against larger nme force. That thing is impressive low and slow.
Deck to 5k is very strong!
VegasX, lemmon, levi, and some others. I handled multiple seafires and F6s with suprising ease. Not to say the fights were easy Vegas ;)
Look out for taht KI-84! Builds E VERY quickly.
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On a side note i've never gotten that thing to compress while diving.
I have! Even ripped the wings off a couple times pulling out. Granted I was kinda asking it to make a right angle at ridiculous speeds at the time.... :)
and yes I to love the hellcat.
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The f6f is one of the more unique american planes in AH as far as flight characteristics go. Most of the american planes pretty much just reward the "flap flappers", the f6f rewards the turn baiters. As a dedicated 38 pilot I can tell you that the f6f accells against the other american planes in a flat fight, but has trouble keeping up in the verticle. Success against a 38 in this plane requires a) not popping flaps to fight, and b) forcing flat turns whenever possible. If flaps come out the 38 does better at extremely low speeds and will take you verticle when you're below your minimum verticle speed. Look to set up the rolling scissors quickly as the 38 loses time not being able to roll during the stall.
-pellik
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Originally posted by Engine
Goose, did we fight at all this tour? I don't remember.
Oh wait, I guess we did. ;)
I AM THE BIGGER INTERNET TOUGH GUY! RAAAAWWWRRGGHULKRAGE
Hehe....yep, you're right:(
I musta had a lot of assists on ya I guess :cool:
I will say that I have very little fear of losing in the F6 vs an equal
E/alt P38. There are a few great 38 flyers out there can can make it a hell of a fight though.
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I recently found I've lost my touch in the F6F a bit (murdr just murdered me:))....was amazed he just clawed up am 6 on what I thought was an easy rope (the J 38 is a monster far as I'm concerned)....
In general however the F6 has a couple of things to exploit...
st and formost is the rudder. The plane has tremendous rudder authority. Alot of what mathman and greebo do to work magic is rudder driven. Used with a notch of flaps in the vertical obliques the plane is a wicked counter puncher and can reverse on just about anything....thats why you often see Greebo so low (same with Drex)...they want you faster and aggresive so they can kill you easier....
energy "reload"....even at lower alts the F6 can reload pretty quickly. It's similiar to the Ki-61 in that regard. As long as you dont get flat you can go along way with moderate E. one of the keys to the F6 (and ACM in general) is speed management. alot of folks are simply to fast to often in a fight.
As for your two specific planes....the 38 is an enigma to me...as far as I'm concerend its a pilot dependant plane. The 38 drivers (most of em) I can kill I can kill in anything...the ones that own me just own me....
The Ki-84 is a very tough plane since it climbs so well and dives so well (up till those elevators go:))...I tend to fight em strictly angles....I sacrifice as much E as I have to to get behind them and then I force them to evade....now if you set yourself up for a rope (very easy to do) and its a good Ki driver your in a world of hurt. I have a clip somewhere of me spiral climbing a spitIX...he's ~400 out and cant pull lead in a climbing right hander....but if you can get him out of his fight and into yours you can beat him...that works for any plane of course...
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Originally posted by humble
(the J 38 is a monster far as I'm concerned)....
As for your two specific planes....the 38 is an enigma to me...as far as I'm concerend its a pilot dependant plane. The 38 drivers (most of em) I can kill I can kill in anything...the ones that own me just own me....
Personally, I don't see any significant difference between the J and the L. Ok, the J turns a tiny bit better, but the L rolls much faster at higher speeds. For me, it's a wash.
That said, the P-38s, any model, are monsters... in the right hands.
I try to teach noobs the P-38 when doing my Trainer thing. My thoughts are that if they can master the basics of the P-38 early on, everything else will be easy by comparison. Indeed, the P-38 can do things that will leave the average player sitting there with their mouths wide open in amazement.
Last night, I flew a series of fights with Kong. I was in a P-38G, he had a 202 initially. After the 202 was dispatched, he took a 109 (a G-2, I think). Similar results. At that point he took up a Ki-84.
What I observed was this: Once he got the flaps out on the Ki-84, he held a slight edge in level turning. That didn't prevent the P-38G from gaining angles and hosing it good. He was also undone by the flaps retracting almost as soon as the nose dropped below the horizon.
At 155 mph, his flaps retracted half way, at 172 mph, they retracted fully, and the P-38G out-turns it without any drama because it still has 80 % flaps deployed at 200 mph. That's the major weakness of the Ki-84, you must remain extremely slow to take advantage of the flaps. Between 160 mph and 250 mph the P-38G absolutely owns the Ki-84. It gets worse if it's a P-38J as it has the power to handle the Ki-84 in the vertical. Likewise, the Ki-84 has the same problems with Spitfires, only they don't need flaps....
In terms of acceleration, on the deck the Ki-84 gets from 200 mph to 300 mph about 3/4 of a second faster than the P-38J. At 4k it's even, and at 10k the P-38J simply ckecks out (at 20k, the P-38J accelerates faster than any prop driven fighter in the game). Likewise, climb is close from sea level. However, the P-38J gets to 10k faster (about 20 seconds sooner) and gains in advantage as altitude goes up. Speed on the deck is virtually identical (however, the Ki-84 is badly hampered by a short WEP cycle, taking much longer to reach max speed), but the Ki-84 falls behind at greater altitude.
As to the F6F, I don't recommend using more than 1 notch of flaps. Hellcats are not very good stall fighters as modeled in AH2.
I find the F4U is superior at low speeds. In fact, with flaps out the F4U can beat all but the lightest turn fighters in pure turning, and its massive rudder allows for flying it deeper into a spin than virtually any other fighter. You can do insane things with the F4U if you master its monster rudder, as I'm sure humble knows.
Back to the F6F; climb, level acceleration and roll rate are average at best. It dives well, hides E like nothing else and has a strong rudder. It's very study and above 200 mph is a match for almost everything until it bleeds its E off.
I'd avoid turn fighting with Ki-84s if you're flying the F6F-5. Keep it fast and work for angles. If you see the E states getting close to equal, bug out while you can.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
As to the F6F, I don't recommend using more than 1 notch of flaps. Hellcats are not very good stall fighters as modeled in AH2.
I find the F4U is superior at low speeds. In fact, with flaps out the F4U can beat all but the lightest turn fighters in pure turning, and its massive rudder allows for flying it deeper into a spin than virtually any other fighter. You can do insane things with the F4U if you master its monster rudder, as I'm sure humble knows.
My regards,
Widewing
Can't agree with this , the f4u-1 may be close , but generally the hellkitty owns the f4u's in a turnfight. Low speed handling in the hellcat is excellent, as is rudder control, and with an extra notch (2) will keep you going with most planes - say up to and nearly including the spit 9
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Originally posted by Redd
Can't agree with this , the f4u-1 may be close , but generally the hellkitty owns the f4u's in a turnfight. Low speed handling in the hellcat is excellent, as is rudder control, and with an extra notch (2) will keep you going with most planes - say up to and nearly including the spit 9
I havent found a F6 pilot who can turn with a -1 hog yet....unless the -1 is fuel heavy. That might partially be do to E state...the -1 has a tremendous advantage in that regard....it can slow to corner much faster so its not possible for an F6 to "tighten up" vs a good hog driver...in fact I have no problem out turning most spit V's, hurricanes and zekes...obviously with those 3 its purely differential E state...but I'd agree with widewing...a good -1 driver wont have many problems with a majority of the F6 drivers in a T&B...as always pilot skill is 80% of the game however...
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I fly both don't be mixing up "Turn fighting" with "E fighting"
big difference
F4U-1 flown in a turn and burn way is at best even with the F6f-5
E - Fighting is a whole nother story
humble/Widewings quote sums it up though
a good -1 driver wont have many problems with a majority of the F6 drivers in a T&B...as always pilot skill is 80% of the game however...
;)
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Originally posted by humble
I havent found a F6 pilot who can turn with a -1 hog yet....unless the -1 is fuel heavy. That might partially be do to E state...the -1 has a tremendous advantage in that regard....it can slow to corner much faster so its not possible for an F6 to "tighten up" vs a good hog driver...in fact I have no problem out turning most spit V's, hurricanes and zekes...obviously with those 3 its purely differential E state...but I'd agree with widewing...a good -1 driver wont have many problems with a majority of the F6 drivers in a T&B...as always pilot skill is 80% of the game however...
WW was talking f4u general not specific -1 .
I thought the -1 and Hellcat are close - but I would still back Hellcat :). The others are no contest
I fly both kittys and hogs , not being biased , just what I've found . Don't run into a hell of a lot lot of -1's though, and I don't fly it much, so I could be persauded otherwise.....
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Obviously E state is the critical factor...its certainly the cornerstone of aggresive hog driving...fast if they're slow...slow if they speed up. I dont think I ever try and out turn any plane if its slower...the key is catching them holding speed and converting to angles via the insta-stop when appropriate:)...
I agree completely, the D & C cant compete with the F6 or -1 with regard to turning. To me the -1 is the only "real" hog:)...
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F4U-1 is an F6F-5 on steroids, until it comes to Ground attack then the F6F wins hands down.
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Originally posted by humble
I agree completely, the D & C cant compete with the F6 or -1 with regard to turning. To me the -1 is the only "real" hog:)...
Yeah, the -1 is better than the -1C or -1D at stall fighting. However, any of those are superior to the P-51 or P-47 at low speeds. And of course, the heavily perked F4U-4 is awesome at stall fighting because it has the power to fight in the vertical at rediculously low speeds. Naturally, most players will never stall fight in the -4 because of the terror associated with losing those perk points. Nonetheless, it is still a monster, even at 100 mph.
Here's an example from the TA, the F4U-4 stall fighting the Ki-61. It ain't pretty for the Ki-61. Film (http://home.att.net/~islandphoto/film51_2717_0000.zip )
My regards,
Widewing
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F-6 is great for forcing the overshoot. Greebo is the low alt expert at this, and actually converted a former f4u exclusive pilot to the f-6 to find out the magic...me
Rudder, Rudder, Rudder. Did I mention the rudder? Cob the rudder and point the nose down in a turn, cut throttle, and 95% of your pursuers will miss on the initial pass. 4% will get 1 ping (taking a gun out maybe) and 1% will nail ya.
Not bad odds considering this is starting with your tail pointed at the enemys nose. I often will show my tail to faster planes to get them to committ, get them faster if you can, get the overshoot, and then hope its a dumbarse whos going to try to reverse on ya.
Balsy
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In my experience, in a pure flat turn, the P-38L and F6F-5 are virtually identical. The P-38 will have more stability but the F6F-5 can counter that with rudder use. The P-38 certainly holds the cards in the vertical and acceleration should that be introduced. The F6F-5 has a roll advantage and a "toughness" advantage, as well as being a smaller target.
As for the F6F-5 vs. F4U, I think the F6F holds most of the cards there. I've never been out-turned by an F4U when everything else was equal. The F4U-1 does feel a bit lighter but only when low on gas which is not typically the case as most people overload it. Most people also fly the D-Hog, not the Hog-1, at least in my opinion (or the C-Hog).
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I cannot recall being out turned by an F6F whilst flying an F4U-1, if i was having to pick from the 2 to engage the other i would pick the -1 everytime.
Of course i would also not try to enter a turn fight with an F6F whilst carrying 75% which is my default take off fuel loading.
But once the fuel load drops the fun starts.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
I cannot recall being out turned by an F6F whilst flying an F4U-1, if i was having to pick from the 2 to engage the other i would pick the -1 everytime.
Of course i would also not try to enter a turn fight with an F6F whilst carrying 75% which is my default take off fuel loading.
But once the fuel load drops the fun starts.
Well, we did some testing of the 2 planes in the TA and the Hellcat definitely has the upper hand in turnfight performance.
The -1 has a good instantaneous turn , which helps it hang in there for 1 turn , but after that the Hellcat holds all the cards.
Key factors were much better vertical performance , and better sustained turn rate , even when horizontal.
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Originally posted by Redd
Key factors were much better vertical performance , and better sustained turn rate , even when horizontal.
Yep, the F4U-1 gets around a bit faster on a Co-E merge, but not enough to gain any worthwhile advantage. From there, the F6F gradually makes gains until he can get a shot. What really hurts the F4U is its poor climbing ability, you simply cannot get the nose up and sustain enough speed to match the F6F. By the way, the F4U had only 50% gas and would have been at a greater disadvantage with more fuel. In a sustained left turn, down on the water, the F6F slowly, but surely works inside. Turn right and the F4U-1's torque only makes it worse.
It was fun Redd.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Redd
Key factors were much better vertical performance , and better sustained turn rate , even when horizontal.
Thanks for the test/observations to back it up Widewing / Redd
now if you wanted to look at them old dusty AH climb/speed charts for AH1.
even though they are for AH1, you can gather that the F6f-5 in AH2 still has the upperhand( climbrate/sustained turnrate) over the F4U-1 in AH2.
only significant factor for the F4U-1 is its speed advantage.
Cav, you are a handful to deal with in the F4U-1, so you are in they top 20% to 5 % of F4U-1 pilots, that is why you have no troubles with the lower 95% to 80% of flyers in the F6f-5.
A fun fight would be Cav in his hog vs Redd in his F6f-5, or Widewing in a hog vs Greebo, or maybe even me in the -1 hog vs Balsy.
you could change up the mix of pilots/planes any way you wanted to in these matchups I listed and it would come down basically to have the victory go to the guy who did not make a mistake!
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Perhaps the F4U-1 just suits me more than the F6.
And i used to be exclusively an F6F flyer.
Couple of points though.
Who fights a sustained turn fight ? not me for sure.
F6F any advantage it has in climb, does not bother me, along with the other 90% that climb better, because if your in the hit zone you cannot outclimb the bullets.
A certain style of fighting will beat the F4U-1 with the F6F on that i agree, but then only if the F4U-1 stays too long because it can at any time walk away at will.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Cav, you are a handful to deal with in the F4U-1, so you are in they top 20% to 5 % of F4U-1 pilots, that is why you have no troubles with the lower 95% to 80% of flyers in the F6f-5.
A fun fight would be Cav in his hog vs Redd in his F6f-5, or Widewing in a hog vs Greebo, or maybe even me in the -1 hog vs Balsy.
you could change up the mix of pilots/planes any way you wanted to in these matchups I listed and it would come down basically to have the victory go to the guy who did not make a mistake!
This is all very true. Redd was able to get everything out of the F6F that it had to offer. Likewise, I had the F4U-1 at its limits (and sometimes a bit beyond). I do not think that anyone else could have gotten anymore from either aircraft. Which is why I completely agree with Redd's conclusion.
That said, a good pilot in the F4U-1 will beat 90% of the MA Hellcat drivers, probably getting them off the merge. On the other hand, an F6F driver of Redd's skill will beat 99% of the MA F4U-1 pilots. That last 1% reserved for unexpected things, such as warps and collisions on the merge.
Remember, this testing was done to compare dogfighting abilities of the aircraft. No effort was made to unload and extend. It was right on the deck, so diving away was not possible. We flew several sustained turn fights, and the F6F was consistently the better of the two.
This kind of testing is valuable in that the pilots are close enough that the plane is the real deciding factor. If you were to base your opinion on flying against the average MA pilot, one could easily assume that the F4U-1 was significantly better. Against a highly skilled F6F pilot, you define the F4U-1's limitations and advantages with much greater clarity, and the only advantage was on the initial reverse, after that it was the F6F's fight.
Now, against the P-38 or 109G-2, the F4U-1 would have faired even worse, as both of these are insanely good in the pure vertical, exactly the flight regime where the F4U-1 is weakest in performance.
Speaking of the P-38, Ren and I had a scrum with Ren flying the Ki-84 and I was flying a P-38G (50% fuel). Flaps out, these are very evenly matched aircraft. I think that the P-38G scrubs speed much faster when needed, and the Ki-84 is at risk of overshooting. At 130 mph the Ki-84 has a very slight turning advantage, but if speeds increase only slightly, it can't keep the flaps out and then the P-38G can out-turn it. In the pure vertical we were both surprised. At around 100 mph, Ren pulled into a sustained vertical climb. I followed and we both wagged our heads as the P-38G, with no WEP, flew right up the Hayate's butt. We both assumed that the P-38G would fall off first. Not only did it not fall off first, it caught up. And while I was dancing on the rudders, it chugged right on by....
Later, with Ren on my 6 in a SpitV and me not being able to shake him with hard turns, I pulled into the vertical at about 90 mph. The Spit simply could not follow. In fact, starting at 90 mph, the P-38G went over the top with complete control. Joking with Ren, I told him I was looking around the cockpit for the Sikorsky data plate.....
My regards,
Widewing
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Please understand when you read all that information about the planes the Widewing wrote really is a discussion about the absolute ability of the planes. We are talking about the deck, slow, trying to work both turns and the vertical getting every inch of performance we possibly could out of the planes.
What does this mean? All of the planes will do a whole lot more for you given setup, alt, energy, speed, etc. But, we are showing you absolute performance that you can add to your knowledge base and pull out of your bag of tricks if, one day, you find yourself in the situation Wildwing decribes above.
Did I mention that day could be tomorrow?;)
Besides, it's fun too!!!:)
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Please understand when you read all that information about the planes the Widewing wrote really is a discussion about the absolute ability of the planes. We are talking about the deck, slow, trying to work both turns and the vertical getting every inch of performance we possibly could out of the planes.
What does this mean? All of the planes will do a whole lot more for you given setup, alt, energy, speed, etc. But, we are showing you absolute performance that you can add to your knowledge base and pull out of your bag of tricks if, one day, you find yourself in the situation Wildwing decribes above.
Did I mention that day could be tomorrow?;)
Besides, it's fun too!!!:)
Excellent points, Ren.
While this type of flight data is useful info, it also does not reflect the typical fights you will find in the MA. The vast majority will be at much higher speeds. How many La-7 and Dora drivers will engage in stall fighting with a P-38? Damned few, as only the over-confident or inexperienced would even consider that.
How this data can help is when you do find yourself in a low-speed scrum, you know what your aircraft is capable of. That, however, does not mean that YOU will be able to duplicate that performance. Every aircraft has limits, more often than not it's the pilot's limits that get in the way, not the plane's. It takes a great deal of time and effort to fully learn these individual aircraft. By this I mean hundreds of hours and hundreds of fights
Here's an example: Let's say that you have been flying the SpitV for six months. You feel pretty confident in it and generally do well. Then one day you run into Leviathn or Slapshot and get your fanny handed to you in a lace wrapping. You just discovered that there was more performance in the Spit than you had thought. That's what comes from knowing every nuance of the aircraft and its capabilities. To compete with guys of that caliber, you will have to compete against them regularly. You will never rise far above the level of your competition. So, to achieve a level such as theirs, you will have to work, work and work some more. And, you will have to fight the best to ever hope to reach their level. But understand that getting to that level will result in getting slapped around a lot. Like the body builders say, "no pain, no gain".
So, film your fights, learn from your defeats, explore the full limits of your preferred aircraft. Eventually, you will attain a high level of ability. You might still find some that are better, but not everyone has the same gifts from the outset. That's not important. What is important is that you are having fun and you are doing the very best you can.
My regards,
Widewing
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Bah! i'm not *over-*confident! i know exactly how good i am.
:p
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@F6F vs F4U
I dont want to be ungreatfull for the responses to this thread but who kills what in what plane is really irrelevant.
Ive done a crapload of game ballance testing in another game (space sim) and the discussion here is not really gonna lead anywhere. First of all it really aint relevant what plane is better then another one in this game, its historically ballanced.
Second of all player skill and preference is a HUUUGE factor when it comes to ballance.
Only thing that matters is how close to RL the planes are. After that which one is the better plane is totally subjective. For player A the F6F is a better plane and for player B the F4U is the better plane. Some like apples some like oranges. No big deal.
If I wanted the "better" plane Id stay in the Spit9. Its a plane that suites me extreamly well and its an extreamly good plane. Im not interested in flying the "better" plane Im interested in becoming the "better" pilot.
I had my reasons why I chose the F6F over the F4U for my next plane to learn. Somewhere down the road I will do the F4U as well. But atm its the F6F and the main reason is that I really want to learn flaps handling. I choose to do that in the F6F as I dont have the "speed to safety" option but need to work my way out of bad situation, either through flying or chute.
@Topic of the thread.
Ive finally started to improve in the F6F. I was -><- close to giving it up.
Main problems I had was that I was way way way to agressive in it as I flew it the same way as I fly the Spit9. In the spit9 I do fly very "in your face" agressive and have pretty good aim in it. Ive not found my aim to the same level in the F6F and it doesnt like that kind of agressivness.
Ive started to fly it more the way I fly the Yak9U, short extends and alot of high YoYos. Works much better for me.
Against the Ki84 Im starting to find my solutions. If I merge at high speeds I do get in on their six. As soon as speed drops towards 200 I raise my flaps and dive away, then remerge when I got my speed above 300.
Though the biggest help for my F6F flying has been the fact that Ive been timesharing it with the P40. The P40 has been a great way to remove the spit9 agressivness from my system.
What I wonder is if anyone has some of you good F6F pilots have a few films where your gunnery can be studied.
Tex
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Lol Tex , you are right , after about a dozen posts everyone managed to stray way off the topic.
What were we talking about again ;)
KI-84's - Kill quickly
P-38's Ditto
Gunnery tip - have you moved the sight right up the glass (pgup)
The Hellcat has come of the best deflection gunnery visibility going around. I always miss it when I jump in anything else.
These days (AH2) I have convergence set at 250, and I try not to shoot until I see that D200 icon . I just have al guns set the same.
The biggest tip I could give you for 6 X 50's , is get those tracers turned off , as soon as you get a feel for the gunnery. I find the smoke and tracers really distracting , and your gunnery will improve in the long term.
Flaps , I think I use them like this , doesn't always work out but
tend to not use them in the "stay fast" phase ,
Use them at the top and bottom of loops/yoyo's at beginning of angles fight phase if trying to preserve E (yoyo's are good opition , kick yourself around with that huge rudder)
go to 1 click straight away if I'm fighting a spit or better, rapidly becoming 2 or even 3 clicks in a drawn out fight with a spit. Probably alternating between 2 and 3
In rolling scissors let them all out , and use plenty of rudder for balancing and flipping the plane around when you roll
Hope some of that helps
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Redd.
When I was in the Spits I was never gunning outside 200d.. maybe.. maybe 300d..
I think one of the reasons Im not finding my aim in the F6F is that Im gunning at a longer range. Bit of it is from the "I got more ammo" factor. I guess I should get back to just taking the 200d shots.
I havent used tracers for quite a few months and it really has helped.
On flaps. Im starting to get a better feel for the usage. Im as you saying using it in top of loops/immels and once Im through the "keep it fast stage". What I need to judge better is when that stage *should* end.
Using full flaps in scissors is something I havent done but should try.
When it comes to rudder thats my other pain.
Atm I use it for:
1. Stall/spin corrections.
2. Bleeding E to create overshoots.
3. Landing and takeoff.
Im trying to learn to use it in turns but am struggling very much there.
Ive also been trying to learn a "rudder high yoyo" basicly a high YoYo that I kick around with the rudder. Ive managed to do it a few times like 1 out of 10. Most often I either find my self rolling and loosing orientation or just hanging there not getting the plane around.
I can read from everyone "use rudder" but my question is how and when?????
Tex
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
I can read from everyone "use rudder" but my question is how and when?????
Tex
Rudder is used to assist rolling at low speeds. Rudder is used to skid, excellent for passing shots on the merge. Rudder is used in conjuction with aileron and elevator as an effective evasive (a yawing barrel roll). Rudder allows you to yaw the plane for shots you would not get otherwise. There's many other instances as well. Rudder is a primary flight control and should be in use to some degree whenever you are maneuvering.
I made a film offline specifically to show how rudder is used to assist low speed flight. It was made for Noobs in the TA, but may benefit players with greater experience. Watch it from the chase position, zoomed in as close as possible. From the chase position you get a better sense of attitude variation. It's unfortunate that the film viewer does not show rudder displacement, but you can tell from the attitude of the plane when rudder is being applied, and how much is applied. This film also demonstrates the excellent low speed stability of the F4U-1, it handles like a Piper Cub.
Film (http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film49_1058.zip )
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing.
thanks alot. will watch the movie as soon as I get home from todays hockey game.
Tex
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Yes the F6F is greatly assisted by the rudder in a roll, especially at low speeds.
Time to hijack the thread momentarily - who uses the stick twist rudder and who uses rudder pedals? I personally hate the stick twist rudder and my rudder pedals are like gold to me. When my rudder gets shot out it's almost like I'm lost...
So if we're gonna talk about flying the F6F and using the rudders, I'd recommend some rudder pedals to allow you to duplicate the results given in this thread.
Also, WideWing and Ren, were you using Combat trim in the testing you did?
Magoo
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Originally posted by Magoo
Also, WideWing and Ren, were you using Combat trim in the testing you did?
Magoo
I trimmed the F4U and P-38G manually. Although, there is almost nothing gained with the F4U over combat trim. OTOH, the P-38G absolutely requires manual trim to get full potential out of it.
My regards,
Widewing
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hmmmmmmmmmm............