Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on March 15, 2005, 01:32:33 PM
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I'm in a bit of a loss here.
A few month ago an acquaintance turning into friend got himself killed. It was a preventable accident but also one that could happen to any one of the people I call friends. And to myself.
There's a saying in the sport - "stick with skydiving long enough and you'll have good friends die". I thought it was machoism speaking but recent events/review of statistics show it's true. The 10+ year'ers I know have developed extremely thick skin and seem emotionally detached to such events.
I just don't know how to deal with it. In developing such thick skin it seems to me you lose some of your humanity. On the other hand, you'll go crazy if you keep thinking about it. It's no fun staring into someone's smiling face if you're thinking it may be the last time you see that.
So what the hell do you do? I have since long accepted the risks for myself, personally. But I got loved ones doing it too. People I couldn't live without.
Man, I'm confused. There's something out there that I *just don't get* and it may be important.
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People who are reckless to themselves in the pursuit of excitement are emotionally disfigured. Seek professional help.
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Take solace in the fact that they died doing something that they love and that they were fully aware of the risks.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Take solace in the fact that they died doing something that they love and that they were fully aware of the risks.
or ponder the possibility that you may be a whimp. buck up a bit, you'll be glad you did. :D
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Originally posted by storch
or ponder the possibility that you may be a whimp. buck up a bit, you'll be glad you did. :D
That's what I said. :p
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Originally posted by Sandman
That's what I said. :p
I was a little more direct. your fine message shouldn't risk being misinterpreted. that would truly be a tragedy. why use a scalpel when hand granades do so nicely? :D
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In the flying community we face the same problem. In 10 years of military flying I've seen one friend, some squadron mates, several classmates, my orthodontist and his wife, and a former student of mine die in aviation accidents.
First, I'll tell you it doesn't get any easier. That may be a comfort to you since the pain is proof that you're still human.
How do military pilots deal with it? Any number of psychologically identifiable methods are at play but here is an amature's take on the whole thing.
When something like this happens, the first thing we do is take care of business. Someone gets to go pick up the pieces of the plane, the dead pilot, and someone else has to try to hold together the lives of the surviving family members. Records and evidence must be preserved for the obligatory investigations. Business first, and that keeps people busy for a while as the shock sets in.
After (or during) this initial timeframe, a lot of the time we go get drunk in the squadron bar or O-club. Everyone deals with it differently including getting angry, sad, expressing disbelief, trying to find an explanation, but right away what I've seen is we tend to come together as a group for a bit of mourning in the bar.
At some point there tends to be a transition to finding lessons learned. First, we learn from the person or people who have been lost. What can we learn from how they lived their lives? Ideas for appropriate memorials are dreamed up and brought to reality, knowing that a memorial should be be a triumphant celebration of a life, not merely a sad reminder of a death. We also learn from the incident itself. This can take on a very personal meaning if you're the instructor for a student who died, or someone who is doing the exact same thing as the one guy who didn't go home that day. Everyone re-evaluates their own conduct, taking home their own lessons learned.
And bravado comes into play, helping keep us from turning inward and thinking too much about all the what-if scenarios. Tradition helps focus people on the future. Ceremony is important when there must remain a focus on a dangerous mission even in the face of tragedy. It may be a simple thing. Our squadron bar has a place where every pilot or WSO who has been in the squadron in the last decade or two has left a nametag when they left. When one of them dies, and everyone dies eventually, the nametag is turned upside down. A simple thing, but it reminds us that nobody is forgotten. A toast to the fallen comrades, a toast to the future, a personal vow that it'll never happen to me, and one more coat of polish is carefully put onto the thick egotistical shell that surrounds any fighter pilot worth a damn. Under the shell may be a human, but damned if any outsider is ever going to find out and pass me another beer you ^*%(^%.
Because we all know at while we pretend it won't happen to us, and we try not to do the math that proves that the statistical probability we'll be directly involved with a fatal mishap approaches certainty throughout our flying careers, we still have a mission to do and holding on to defeatist negativity is the best way to ensure you're either going to be the next dead guy or completely ineffective.
It's different for every group. Fighter pilots fall back on each other, tradition, and a thick shell for an ego to deal with it. It's never easy but we have coping mechanisms that go back generations. Living an intentionally hazardous life (ie. skydiving for fun or profit) involves both a calculated risk and a decision about the relative value of the quality vs. quantity of life. The comparison between the dead hero and live coward applies to life in general, not just combat. How safe do you really want to be? Are there some things in life that are worth taking risks?
I tell you one thing I do know - I see people who smoke, drink, drive too aggressively, take drugs, etc. and they're risking their lives for things that seem pitifully trivial compared to the joy many people get from other high risk outdoor activities like rock climbing, skydiving, and flying. Yes, if you partake in any of these activities, whether it's doing drugs or flying, you're probably going to see the death of someone close to you much sooner than you'd like. The question is if the life benefits of that activity worth the risk? I know I've drawn the line for myself, and it's somewhere between flying fighters (fun) and bungie jumping (stupid and unnecessary).
Just remember that those close to you have faced the same choices and made their decisions, and honor their lives when they're gone.
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Thanx Eagl...
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Same for many Bikers StSanta.
I understand how you feel. I've lost a few good freinds along the way, and my fiance rides too. I dread anything happening to her. But a life lived full on even if brief is better than a life lived long and dull. If you love someone and the thing they do however dangerous brings them real joy, then that joy is worth every moment.
Actualy we live in the safest most regulated times ever. Life was far more dangerous in the past. Any number of things could carry you off, from war to disease to natural disaster. I think sometimes we do these dangerous things to compensate for the anesthetic safe environment we live in. When blokes uesd to have to go ff to wars or fly fighter planes over europe/far east, dangerous sports probably seemed like a realy bad idea.
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Originally posted by storch
I was a little more direct. your fine message shouldn't risk being misinterpreted. that would truly be a tragedy. why use a scalpel when hand granades do so nicely? :D
:D I hear ya..
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Try scuba diving.
Unlike skydiving, you DO have a chance to 'make it' if your equipment fails.
;)
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being an "old fart" i have had many friends die, we all die, some sooner, some later. i must be one of the later.
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Eagl hit on some major points. When it's not someone close to you it's ok to thicken your skin about the situation. When it's someone close, embrace the loss and celebrate the life.
If loved ones skydive with you the only thing you can do is not become complacent. Double check your equipment and have your friends check you over while you check them. 2 heads are better than one when it comes to remembering details.
Lastly, accidents happen, this is not a perfect world. You are pursuing an exciting lifestyle doing what you do, and with it come greater risks than just walking around the block. Best thing I can suggest about prepping yourself for something like that is to not live in fear.
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Your viewpoint about death has a lot to do with it as well.
Personally, I find a part of myself envying my friends that die because they get to see what's next before me. Of course it's hard on thier families and I'm not saying that I'm not sensitive to that.
I remember when I got the call that my grandfather died, I walked outside my apartment, wished him well on his journey and knew that he was ok.
This doesn't mean that I don't miss him... I do. It's just part of my faith that allows me to feel this way.
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between my teenage years, my bike years, and construction work as I got older, I've been to about 2-3 times as many funerals as weddings. some have hit really close to home (best friends, nephew who was raised like a brother) and they all hurt (all the funerals anyway. only some of the weddings).
this is where those odd society traditions come in. you have funerals, wakes, drop off food to the family, visit his mother and tell her what a great guy she raised and what her son meant to you.
basically you go on auto-pilot for awhile, try not to dwell on it too much, have a few drinks when you can't help it, and keep busy doing the things that society expects you to do. hopefully you'll have a handle on it by the time the work is done.
as far as risky sports or lifestyles. it doesn't bother me so much when a guy checks out this way (assuming he's doing it for love of the activity and not just a danger junkie). I don't find a life lost this way as so much a tragedy as the guy who makes it to 80 and never got up the guts to live at all.
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Originally posted by Yeager
People who are reckless to themselves in the pursuit of excitement are emotionally disfigured. Seek professional help.
You're not serious, are you?
I'll admit that skydiving is exciting. Especially at first, you get a huge adrenaline rush from the danger.
The more you jump, the more it turns into an art. A sport. A form of expression. The danger is not what is sought, it is a side effect. If it could be eliminated, I'd still jump. It's such a beautiful experience. Puts you in the NOW; immediacy is there. Nothing else matters but the few precious seconds where you truly live, and live in the present. You're true to yourself. And there is no uncertainty whatsoever, no mother holding her hand over you. All the views and opinions in the world don't matter; the laws of physics will take care of you one way or the other. You live, you get broken or you die. The clarity there is refreshing compared to the grey areas that so often are found in life.
Others get the same from other activites. I'm not BASE jumping - I got a reserve. Taking calculated risks isn't the same as blindly throwing yourself into the great unknown.
I don't think I'm mentally unstable.
Sandman, I try to do just that. It's a pretty hard thing to do though or at least do consistently.
Storch heh yeah. Not like I'm quitting. I'm trying to find a coping mechanism that works without numbing me out. Any ideas?
Skydancer the worrying is the worst part, yeah?
OIO Already doing scuba, although much less of it since I started skydiving. We carry reserves - a double total malfunction would be akin to a catastrophic gas loss at the point when you're furthest into a wreck and farthest away from your buddy.
Goth heh, I'm really anal about my gear. I check my handles on the ground, when seated in the plane, on jump run and finally just before exiting. I check my buddies gear and he checks mine. However, what killed the friend of mine was human error. He made a 180 degree front riser turn at low altitude and impacted so hard he bounced. I myself have broken ribs (http://www.njfk.dk/movies/voldhook.wmv) when I misjudged the length of my swoop. Usually it's human error that kills and just as my friends, I'm human.
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What does life mean anyway?
If your not god fearing there is not much to look foreward to after death.
Life is about living and having fun, and in a way I think it is better to check out doing something you love then getting old.
I see old people, relitives or friends relitives, struggle to live every day. Every day a trail. their old bodies, not wanted to do anything for them anymore.
Maybe I am young, but I do not want to go out like that. I want to die right around the point were my body can't deal with regular life anymore. prolly 60 or 65 maybe older.
Death sucks, no doubt about it, but at some point life sucks too. Living in a old folks home not able to take care of yourself is prolly worse then death.
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Originally posted by eagl
First, I'll tell you it doesn't get any easier. That may be a comfort to you since the pain is proof that you're still human.
Yeah, but it sucks bigtime. It seems there is no choice - you either lose part of your humanity or you suck it down and move on. If there ever was such a thing as lost innocense, that's what we got here.
When something like this happens, the first thing we do is take care of business. Someone gets to go pick up the pieces of the plane, the dead pilot, and someone else has to try to hold together the lives of the surviving family members. Records and evidence must be preserved for the obligatory investigations. Business first, and that keeps people busy for a while as the shock sets in.
Same in skydiving. The incident is analyzed. Gear examined, jumper behaviour analyzed in a detached manner.
At some point there tends to be a transition to finding lessons learned. First, we learn from the person or people who have been lost. What can we learn from how they lived their lives? Ideas for appropriate memorials are dreamed up and brought to reality, knowing that a memorial should be be a triumphant celebration of a life, not merely a sad reminder of a death. We also learn from the incident itself. This can take on a very personal meaning if you're the instructor for a student who died, or someone who is doing the exact same thing as the one guy who didn't go home that day. Everyone re-evaluates their own conduct, taking home their own lessons learned.
And then we press on. What else can we do? Still, don't you question the Big Things in life when this happens?
And after going through it all, you go full circle and arrive at the same point you started - 'to me it's worth it'. But it's more a statement of fact that it is a comfort. You grit your teeth and hope the pain and feeling of uncertainty goes away. Then, for me, I get the 'oh f*ck it' feeling. Sort of a flow of aggression. Feels good, but I'm not sure it's healthy.
It may be a simple thing. Our squadron bar has a place where every pilot or WSO who has been in the squadron in the last decade or two has left a nametag when they left. When one of them dies, and everyone dies eventually, the nametag is turned upside down. A simple thing, but it reminds us that nobody is forgotten. A toast to the fallen comrades, a toast to the future, a personal vow that it'll never happen to me, and one more coat of polish is carefully put onto the thick egotistical shell that surrounds any fighter pilot worth a damn. Under the shell may be a human, but damned if any outsider is ever going to find out and pass me another beer you ^*%(^%.
I'm unaware of such ceremonies in my sport, beyond the ash dive. The last sentence I can relate to: it's how it's dealt with.
Living an intentionally hazardous life (ie. skydiving for fun or profit) involves both a calculated risk and a decision about the relative value of the quality vs. quantity of life. The comparison between the dead hero and live coward applies to life in general, not just combat. How safe do you really want to be? Are there some things in life that are worth taking risks?
One is never safe. We're all gonna die. We better make use of the time we're granted by the powers that be. To not do it would be an insult to the divine. Or is that just rationalization? I don't know and I don't know if I care.
Just remember that those close to you have faced the same choices and made their decisions, and honor their lives when they're gone
Thank you for a very well thought out post. I'm new to the death business. Turning 30 this year and only now I've been made somewhat aware of my mortality and the frailty (sp?) of the human body. Perhaps it is good for me. Perhaps now I will make the decision on a more correct foundation. Strength can only be built if there is resistance.
I still question things I already have answered though. Such as 'is it more beautiful to go out early, living fully than to be cautious and live long?' Always end up with the same answer - what's the point of living long if you're not fully enjoying it? Maybe it's just fear of the unknown rearing its ugly head.
GtoRA2 those mirror my sentiments. It's only small comfort though.
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StSanta,
Are you married?
Do you have kids?
eskimo
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Not married. No kids. Single.
No one is affected should I die except my immediate family.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Not married. No kids. Single.
No one is affected should I die except my immediate family.
Cool.
Have fun, play safe.
Being married with kids changes everything.
eskimo
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StSanta
It was hard when my dad died, and it was his own doing in a way. I got to spend the next 9 months cleaning up the mess he made of his life.
It gets easier the pain and sorrow fade.
not much confort now but you will get past it.
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nothing worse than a life lived worrying about dieing.. A risk free life scares hell out of me.
lazs
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I'm old enough to remember when diving and skydiving were dangerous and sex was safe. :D
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"Afraid of living a live without risk"--I'll admit, I think that comment seems a little odd.
You're taking a risk if you so much as walk out your front door. You never know when the local drunk might run you over. It doesn't matter if you're a skydiver or a guy working at the local Wal-Mart. You ALWAYS have to be prepared to lose people you care about.
The only gaurantee life comes with is that it doesn't last forever.
I recommend you think in advance of how you would deal with the loss of a friend, a parent, a spouse. It WILL happen eventually--unless you check out first--so the more thought you give it beforehand, the better you will cope when it happens.
J_A_B
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I think you totaly missed Laz's point Jab.
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Apparently I did, because I don't think there is such a thing as a life without risk.
Now if what he means by a "life without risk" is hiding under a rock and being afraid to do anything at all because of the fact that hey, you might die--then I'd agree, that's not much of a way to live.
J_A_B
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He is saying being forced by girly men to live a risk free life(by the banning of guns, rock climbing ski diving etc because they can be dangerous) would suck more then dying doing something you like.
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Eagl, that was eloquent. I hope you've made copies of that for your family, friends, and squadron mates.
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GTO is correct. that is the way I feel. I would not ask others to live a risk free life for my sake... I have lost a lot of people in my 5 decades. there is no way to prepare and no way to predict how you will react.
Once you have done all you can reasonably do about a situation... worrying is pointless and counterproductive. You can advise your grown son not to buy a motorcycle or fly ultralights like you did but that is all you can do about it...Better to hope he has as much fun and fullfilment out of them as you got than to spend the entire time eating broken glass over the thing. He will either survive or not. You will have no choice on how you react if he doesn't.
My personal opinion is that death does not bear thinking about much. It is inevitable and some behavior that is fullfilling is also risky. A person needs to weigh the two and make his own decision... having it made for you is the worst thing.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
nothing worse than a life lived worrying about dieing.. A risk free life scares hell out of me.
lazs
Walking that fine line has been some of the best times of my life. :D