Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bigsky on March 17, 2005, 06:51:04 PM
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ORLANDO, Fla. -- A police officer twice used a Taser stun device on a drug suspect who was restrained to a hospital bed because the man refused to give a urine sample to medical staff, authorities said.
Antonio Wheeler, 18, was arrested Friday on a drug charge and taken to an emergency room after telling officers he had consumed cocaine, police said.
Because Wheeler said he had used the drugs, Florida Hospital officials wanted a urine sample. A police affidavit said Wheeler wouldn't provide a sample on his own, so workers tried to catheterize him to get one.
Antonio Wheeler
The police document said Wheeler was handcuffed to a hospital bed and then secured with leather straps after he refused to urinate in a cup. When medical staff tried to insert a catheter to get the sample, Wheeler refused and began thrashing around, the affidavit said.
At one point, police officer Peter Linnenkamp reported, he jumped on the bed with his knees on Wheeler's chest to restrain him. When Wheeler still refused to let the catheter be inserted, Linnenkamp said he twice used his Taser, which sends 50,000 volts into a target.
"After the second shock (Wheeler) stated he would urinate and calmed down enough to be given the portable urinal," Linnenkamp wrote.
At the request of Police Chief Michael McCoy, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident.
Linnenkamp, who has more than 18 years on the force, has no history of disciplinary problems, said Sgt. Barbara Jones, a department spokeswoman.
He has been relieved pending the investigation's outcome. Jones said officers in such suspensions usually are paid.
In a Tuesday interview at the Orange County jail, Wheeler acknowledged that he aggressively resisted efforts to insert the catheter because he was scared it would hurt. He said the police officer told him the catheter would be necessary if he wouldn't or couldn't urinate on his own.
"I feel I was basically raped," Wheeler said.
Said Amnesty International USA spokesman Edward Jackson: "If this had taken place in China, it would be an egregious violation of human rights, and the public would be outraged.
"I hope that they don't allow the fact that it happened on U.S. soil deter from the fact that this may very well be a case of torture."
Florida Hospital spokeswoman Melanie Trivento said in a statement Wednesday that hospital officials wouldn't be able to comment on the case until they have thoroughly reviewed it.
"This is a very unusual situation and we are examining all of the circumstances surrounding the incident," the statement said.
Earlier, another hospital spokeswoman, Samantha O'Lenick, said she could not speak specifically about the Wheeler case but said hospital protocol calls for urine samples whenever patients say they have taken drugs or alcohol.
Wheeler was being held on $7,500 bail on charges including possession of cocaine with intent to sell, escape and resisting without violence.
Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
http://www.wftv.com/news/4266952/detail.html
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Sheesh.
A bit impatient no?
All they hadta do is leave him cuffed put a condom on him (to collect the pee in)
And wait for nature to take its course.
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protect and serve
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Can you really be forced to submit an urine sample in the US? Can you be convicted based on it's findings?
In most western countries it's illegal to posses and consume illegal drugs, but it's not illegal to have it in your system.
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WOA WOA WOA WOA
WTF IS THIS
Said Amnesty International USA spokesman Edward Jackson: "If this had taken place in China, it would be an egregious violation of human rights, and the public would be outraged.
"I hope that they don't allow the fact that it happened on U.S. soil deter from the fact that this may very well be a case of torture."
That is bull crap. Freakin amerihating media is really pissin me off lately
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
WOA WOA WOA WOA
WTF IS THIS
That is bull crap. Freakin amerihating media is really pissin me off lately
put them on airhead's ignore list!!! (that'll teach'm) :D
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Originally posted by mora
Can you really be forced to submit an urine sample in the US? Can you be convicted based on it's findings?
In most western countries it's illegal to posses and consume illegal drugs, but it's not illegal to have it in your system.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Guns, I gotta agree with the guy from AI. If it had happened in China, we would be calling foul. There was no need to zap him. Time would have won the contest.
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Originally posted by rpm
Guns, I gotta agree with the guy from AI. If it had happened in China, we would be calling foul. There was no need to zap him. Time would have won the contest.
Nope,
If he's freaking out like he was then he could be a danger to the hospital staff... OR HIMSELF.
The taser did exactly what it was supposed to. It broke his will to resist and made him cooperate. What would have happend if they'd had the cathider halfway in and he started this crap. He would have really injured himself.
If he would have just given the Urine sample this wouldnt have happened.
Can you really be forced to submit an urine sample in the US? Can you be convicted based on it's findings?
In this situation it wasn't the police that wanted it but the hospital staff. They have every right to get that from a patient under their care.
EDIT:
I will say this though. After having re-read the article for the above question it would have been better if the hospital sedated him rather than tasing him.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
...In this situation it wasn't the police that wanted it but the hospital staff. They have every right to get that from a patient under their care...
Uhmm, no they don't.
What the police officer and hospital staff accomplished was to make this criminal a very wealthy man.
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Originally posted by Furious
Uhmm, no they don't.
If they suspect an overdose or the patient may be a danger to himself....yes they do.
It probably wont be admisable in court though.
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Originally posted by bigsky
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Hell... don't forget this one also:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Nope,
The taser did exactly what it was supposed to. It broke his will to resist and made him cooperate.
wow i dint know tazers were for that.
http://www.taser.com/index.htm
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Taser-ed to make him pee?
Sorry, no way can I support that.
Like someone said, put a condom with drain tube to bottle on him.
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They can't take blood sample? Cop tased him so dude would come down....not so he can piss in a cup. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by mora
Can you really be forced to submit an urine sample in the US? Can you be convicted based on it's findings?
Yes and Yes
shamus
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5mg of Haldol would have done the trick and nobody would be in trouble. The guy was already handcuffed and leather strapped to the bed.
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Originally posted by Shamus
Yes and Yes
shamus
Got any examples?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Got any examples?
Every CDL license holder.
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Originally posted by rpm
Every CDL license holder.
Not true. You can refuse to be tested in this state, but the consequence is that you'll lose the license.
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You agree to take a test when you sign the license. It's like a waiver. You can say you refuse, but they will drag you to the hospital and get one and it's still evidence. You're right about losing the license. I've had a CDL since 1992.
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Some of you are forgetting that he wasn't tasered to GET the urine sample....he was tazered because he got unruley and posed a possible danger to himself and the hospital staff.
I agree that a sedative would have been better. and YES you can be forced to give a urine sample.
BUT the main thing here is that he was under the care of the HOSPITAL STAFF not the police officer and it was the HOSPITAL STAFF that was requesting the sample.
If they have reasons to believe he might be at risk and admitting doing drugs they can treat him for what ever they think they need to save his life.
If he was ODing and he died under their care and they could have taken a Urine sample and diagnosed that he was diabetic or somthing but didnt.....they as a hospital would be liable for his death.
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Originally posted by rpm
You agree to take a test when you sign the license. It's like a waiver. You can say you refuse, but they will drag you to the hospital and get one and it's still evidence. You're right about losing the license. I've had a CDL since 1992.
Hmmm... according to CA DMV (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/driversafety/dsalcohol.htm#took), you can refuse to submit to the test.
Where's the law that states that they can take the sample? To drag someone into the hospital and forcibly take a sample sounds like a 4th Amendment violation to me.
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Nevermind... I found it. (http://www.dui.com/duieducation/chemicaltest.html)
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Check CADMV (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/sec1_a.htm) under "How To Get A CDL ". A regular driver's license is different from a CDL.
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When such happens in China, the news media never seems to be able to obtain, nor have the capability to report such alleged information.
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Originally posted by rpm
5mg of Haldol would have done the trick and nobody would be in trouble. The guy was already handcuffed and leather strapped to the bed.
Im no Doc but wouldnt it be dangerous to try and sedate someone who is possibly overdosing already on unknown drugs? Thats why they would want the sample.
This may be why the didnt sedate him.
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The guy wasn't OD'n...
And the only reason he was in the emergency room was because he was dragged there for a urine test after he told the cops he had done drugs.
So... those things aren't on the table.
What a spectacle. I laughed my arse off reading that.
18 year old kid... might have been picked up after the cops raided some college party. Next thing ya know he's tied down to a bed with leather straps, his pants are down around his ankles, a cop climbs ontop him, and 50,000 volts are snakin' through his entire body.
It's the new Siaf Protocol! :D
wtf.....
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Well unless they had a warrant for his pee, they are in deep doodoo (and you can get a warrant fo that too..)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Well unless they had a warrant for his pee, they are in deep doodoo (and you can get a warrant fo that too..)
AGAIN
the article said the HOSPITAL requested the URINE.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
the article said the HOSPITAL requested the URINE.
The cops requested the hospital to request (get) the urin.
This wasn't a medical situation.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
AGAIN
the article said the HOSPITAL ___________ the URINE.
REQUESTED
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
If they suspect an overdose or the patient may be a danger to himself....yes they do....
A patient has the right to refuse any treatment. The hospital has no rights to force treatment or testing.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Nevermind... I found it. (http://www.dui.com/duieducation/chemicaltest.html)
Where does the article say he was apprehended while driving?
If you are just walking down the street, implied consent does not apply.
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It's the new Siaf Protocol!
If he was dealing at 18 I wouldn't have been that nice to him.
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Originally posted by Furious
A patient has the right to refuse any treatment. The hospital has no rights to force treatment or testing.
nope. Not if that patient is out of his mind so to speak.
If a guy walked into a hospital all cracked up and the hospital tried to treat him and then he caused harm to himself or somone else the hospital is liable.
look,
the article does not give that much information here but yes you can be forced to give a urine sample. A hospital has the OBLIGATION to treat you.
Because Wheeler said he had used the drugs, Florida Hospital officials wanted a urine sample. A police affidavit said Wheeler wouldn't provide a sample on his own, so workers tried to catheterize him to get one.
it does not say the cops wanted it nore does it say that they told the hospital to get it. Now you guys want to quote rights that's fine. I'm all for civil rights. At this guys trial the urine sample would probably NOT be able to be used as evidence against him
I'm only going by what the article says.
1. A guy was in a hospital and said he'd used cocaine
2. The hospital wanted a urine sample for unspecified reasons and the guy refused
3. the guy then got Irate and violent
4. The guy was restrained and was still irate and violent
5. The police tried to restrain him further but he refused
6. the police then taserd him and the guy gave in.
I would not want to be in his shoes but:
1. I wouldn't be on cocaine in the first place
2. I would do what the hospital staff asked because usually with them there's the "easy way" and the "hard way"
3. once the police were involved that would be it.
If the hospital or the police violated his civil rights he would have the right to sue them after the fact. Resisting and getting violent is still not the way to go.
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Yeah but he was on dope Gunslinger. You think he spent one second thinking 'what's right?'
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Yeah but he was on dope Gunslinger. You think he spent one second thinking 'what's right?'
Exactly!
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Originally posted by Furious
Where does the article say he was apprehended while driving?
If you are just walking down the street, implied consent does not apply.
Excellent point.
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Well, they taser elderly motorists for sounding the car horn, so... :(
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if he was driving they sure can make him...my brother has a cdl and drives coast to coast..he said they use to be able to pull you over in those vans and make you pee right in the back of them..and i said no way!!..and he said,yup...goes for you 2..i was like what? he said if they think your messed up they can make you do the same thing..he seen it all the time happen to other truck drivers and regular drivers..but he said they mostly targeted truck drivers with the d.o.t vans..lol
im not sure if it was right to tazer this guy..counts how unruley he was getting i guess...i know a guy at my freinds work got out of controll and wouldnt leave the break room..cops had to come to his work..and the guy still wouldnt leave..so they went to grab him and he freaked out and hit one with a chair,,lol they pepper sprayed him and dragged him out..being out of controll will give them the right to tazer or mess you up..lol
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Interesting reading.
http://www.law.uh.edu/healthlawperspectives/Reproductive/040202Prosecution.pdf
shamus
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(http://www.timewarprockband.com/images/postcount.jpg)
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Originally posted by hyena426
if he was driving they sure can make him...my brother has a cdl and drives coast to coast..he said they use to be able to pull you over in those vans and make you pee right in the back of them..and i said no way!!..and he said,yup...goes for you 2..i was like what? he said if they think your messed up they can make you do the same thing..he seen it all the time happen to other truck drivers and regular drivers..but he said they mostly targeted truck drivers with the d.o.t vans..lol
im not sure if it was right to tazer this guy..counts how unruley he was getting i guess...i know a guy at my freinds work got out of controll and wouldnt leave the break room..cops had to come to his work..and the guy still wouldnt leave..so they went to grab him and he freaked out and hit one with a chair,,lol they pepper sprayed him and dragged him out..being out of controll will give them the right to tazer or mess you up..lol
I have a hard time believing this. Someone actually mentioned in another thread that you cannot be convicted from a DWI based on a urine sample.
I don't see the point of urine testing a person who seems intoxicated. Depending on the drug it might take some time before it's even visible in urine. Besides you couln't even know if the person was driving while intoxicated when he took those drugs.
Traffic tests should be done from blood, not from urine.
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well the guy is saying all the right things..
Things like fear, rape, scarred etc.. he's being coached..
IMO he will get paid..
its only a matter of who is at fault.. if the hospital employee asked for help then the liability will be on the hospital employee, (most have their own security were they alerted?) if the officer acted on his own.. saddling a handcuffed man then tasering him claiming he was a threat while handcuffed /saddled and strapped down is far fetched..
trial lawyer will eat up any testimony the officer has becuase the subject was handcuffed and strapped down..
this isn't even taking into 4th admendment violations of forced sample taking which could be contrued as cruel and unusual punishment.. all the lawyer will do is run a statistic of forced attempts / successes and overwall statistics of the the alledged crime (dope slinging) when the results show that its highly unusual to get a sample / conviction in that matter cruel and unusual will be established and he'll walk... then whatever civil proceeding will then take place.. a rather large one considering he's talking rape etc...
a drug investigation does not give you the right attack the man in the way they did.. i could understand if he just committed murder or vehicular manslaughter and evidence needed to be collected, but tasering for failing to comply while cuffed and people trying to jam things up your noodle could easily be construed as torture..... the prefered method would have been sedation (by hospital staff if he was flailing about..)
Then take the sample.. (even then though the evidence is tainted thru forced sample. and a clever attorney may have it tossed..)
IMO he'll get paid.. Florida is sue happy plenty of sharks down here.. (lawyers that are seeing big dollar signs right now)
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by mora
I have a hard time believing this. Someone actually mentioned in another thread that you cannot be convicted from a DWI based on a urine sample.
I don't see the point of urine testing a person who seems intoxicated. Depending on the drug it might take some time before it's even visible in urine. Besides you couln't even know if the person was driving while intoxicated when he took those drugs.
Traffic tests should be done from blood, not from urine.
One more time....
The article is unclear WHY he was told to provide a urine sample. He might not have been driving at all. It was the HOSPITAL that wanted it for whatever reason. The cop tazered him to get him under control and it worked.
If he is a danger to himself or a danger to other people the police could have then been called.
FROM THE ARTICLE
Earlier, another hospital spokeswoman, Samantha O'Lenick, said she could not speak specifically about the Wheeler case but said hospital protocol calls for urine samples whenever patients say they have taken drugs or alcohol.
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Well I dont think that because a hospital has a protocol that legal rights go by the wayside.
But I dont doubt that there may very well be a law out there that will protect the hospital and police from repercusions.
shamus
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In germany the cops can take a blood sample to test for alchohol, from your nose.
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Oh i forgot to add .... Florida has the "Florida Patient Bill of Rights on the Books"
http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/Profiling/billofrights.htm
Under Rights of Patients
Section A - Individual Dignity
1. The individual dignity of a patient must be respected at all times and upon all occasions.
Hence jamming something up your noodle saddled cuffed and strapped down then tasered would not fit under Section A #1
Note: "Upon all occasions"
heres some more:
"A patient has the right to refuse any treatment, except as otherwise provided by law." (mental health is the main reason the provided by law portion not drug investigations..)
Now does the admission of cocaine use (its a bloody confession what more do you need for a conviction here case should be closed..) constitute a strapping , handcuffing , saddling/beating, then tasering.. twice i might add... well let the florida courts decide this one.. IMO they will say hell no considering no vehicular manslaughter / murder investigation etc...
Were not even talking what bill of rights violations yet.. shall I continue?
DoctorYo
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Gunslinger, I can think of nothing that would possibly give the hospital the right to taser someone as part of "treatment."
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So the guy did a little bit of cocaine, big deal.
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I have a hard time believing this. Someone actually mentioned in another thread that you cannot be convicted from a DWI based on a urine sample.
who said they were lookin for dwi? .i never did..... they can get a breathalizer for dwi..need urine or blood or spinal tap{spinals are illegal anymore to force}..to prove you are higher than a kite while driving
I don't see the point of urine testing a person who seems intoxicated. Depending on the drug it might take some time before it's even visible in urine.
because blood test are not cheap or free...needs to go to a lab and wait a day or 2 before they get results.urine test are cheap and get faster results
Besides you couln't even know if the person was driving while intoxicated when he took those drugs.
they can tell if your high on crack coke or meth when pulled over..because your eyes will allmost look black because your pupils get really wide..it is very easy to tell some one is messed up on meth..why do you think cops point there flash light in your eyes? to watch your pupils diolate..and if they dont..they know your high as hell...and most drugs like meth are visible right away in your system.. alot of truck drivers use meth to stay up late..and its only in your system for 2 or 3 days...thats why its the fav of truck drivers...long as they dont do somthing stupid they wont get pulled over before they have to take a pee test..but!! if they do get pulled over and a cop thinks he is high on meth..he gots all the right to give him a pee test
as for this case..he allready said he was high..i dont think they needed to tazer him
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Sandman brought up an EXCELLENT point. It applies for Pennsylvania too.
At any time you refuse a urine test or blood test when they are testing for drugs or alcohol, you get your license revoked.
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Originally posted by bigsky
Antonio Wheeler
The police document said Wheeler was handcuffed to a hospital bed and then secured with leather straps after he refused to urinate in a cup. When medical staff tried to insert a catheter to get the sample, Wheeler refused and began thrashing around, the affidavit said.
At one point, police officer Peter Linnenkamp reported, he jumped on the bed with his knees on Wheeler's chest to restrain him. When Wheeler still refused to let the catheter be inserted, Linnenkamp said he twice used his Taser, which sends 50,000 volts into a target.
[/url]
Our tax dollars at work. I hope that cop never works again.
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one main point about pee tests and the goverment .....
What the hell ever happend to the 5th amendment...... ?
and don't give me that protecting criminals crap ..
it's a balance of power just like guns, the press, the legislative, judical and executive branches.... it's a balance aginst the power of the court and police for the private citizen .. and the fact the think they can require such a test defies the 5th amendment in my eyes......
They are running right over our rights, yet even the media doesn't see them running over the 5th.... seems like it must be standard practise to try to require pee tests on drug suspects ....
HE has the RIGHT to decline and to plead the 5th ....... this is to protect him from such things as this torture....... this is a wise balance like the other balances setup in our consistituition......
cops can ask all the questions they want .... you don't have to say crap till you are sworn into a court of law or subpoened.....
I don't see why the 5th can't protect you from such pee tests.... Identifcation test's to compare with evidance (such as DNA) are diffrant IMHO .. and this was NOT that, this was to test for drugs.... not identify him
Guess some legal types would argue it only applies to the spoken word ... but I disagree.
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If a guy walked into a hospital all cracked up and the hospital tried to treat him and then he caused harm to himself or somone else the hospital is liable.
The guy was strapped down, he was in no postion to hurt himself or anyone else.
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There's one thing that's already been talked about but I can't figure out if it's been settled conclusively or not.
My understanding is.... Cops can request a urine test. If the testee refuses, then he gets charged as having failed the urine test.
No problem with that.
But what I'm confused about is... why did the cops pursue the urine test if the testee already plead guilty, as it were, by refusing one. Why did they need to even bother?
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Originally posted by Nash
But what I'm confused about is... why did the cops pursue the urine test if the testee already plead guilty, as it were, by refusing one. Why did they need to even bother?
Because a urine test might have resulted in more charges being filed.
What the cop should have done was taser him in the balls- that would have gotten him the urine sample he wanted.
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OMG, Hi Airhead! :)
Because a urine test might have resulted in more charges being filed.
Is that right? Lotsa drugs stay in yer system for quite a while, so, it's possible. But is that what they were attempting to do?
Surely that's over the top.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Gunslinger, I can think of nothing that would possibly give the hospital the right to taser someone as part of "treatment."
Me neither....but the hospital didn't taser him the police did. The article is very unclear about the cicumstances of this case.
1. If the guy was in the care of the hospital in the police ward they have officers there to keep criminals in check
I havn't read the patients bill of rights for florida but I would venture to GUESS that somone who is wacked up on drugs does not have the frame of mind to give consent or refuse treatment. Again that's only a guess here.
A cathider (SP) is not a rape it is a standard medical practice. This guy was not tortured nor was he beat. All the dramatics aside he was ordered to do something right or wrong and he refused.
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Gunslinger, you keep going in a certain direction which confuses the hell out of me.
It's almost as if you think this guy was under the care of the hospital, and the cops were only brought in to help the nurses treat this guy.
"...taken to an emergency room after telling officers he had consumed cocaine".
The nurses didn't bring the cops in to help them, the cops were using the nurses to get what they wanted.
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gunslinger's common sense module is malfunctioning.
he wants so very badly for the bad guy to be in the wrong, and he is.
...but, the problem is that the bad guy, in this case, is the cop that needlessly tasered a restrained suspected criminal. twice.
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could of been worse..he could of pepper sprayed him before he used the taser on him,,lol
im sure there are alot worse acts we dont hear about on cop abuse..this one just happend to make the news..doesnt suprize me one bit
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Originally posted by Nash
The nurses didn't bring the cops in to help them, the cops were using the nurses to get what they wanted. [/B]
"Because Wheeler said he had used the drugs, Florida Hospital officials wanted a urine sample."
No place in that article did it say the police requested a urine sample. All the officer was doing was assisting...and, the result after being tasered?
The dirt bag sobered up and peed in a cup.
What would be a travesty is if an eighteen year veteran police officer were fired over this.
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what amazes me is you never here of pedophiles getting abused like that but i guess they are not messed up when dealing with the cops. this would make a good anti-drug commercial, "you do dope, the cops are going to stick things up your wang and give you electricty till it hurts"
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The dirt bag sobered up and peed in a cup.
What would be a travesty is if an eighteen year veteran police officer were fired over this. [/B][/QUOTE]
hmmm, ill bet if i hit you with 50k volts some fluids are going to come out of you without your consent.
the real travisty is that the taxpayer is going to have to foot the bill on this one. its not right that some dirtbag abuses another dirtbag and we have to foot the bill. let the ****er sue that cop, take his house and retirement. it was his choice, his call let him shoulder up the responsibility.
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LOL Airhead, you dork.
lets imagine a scenario.
You walk in to a hospital and tell the nurse you did coke. She requests a piss sample, because that is hospital policy. You refuse. She demands. You refuse. She calls a police officer. You refuse. She has you strapped down. You refuse. She once again demands a sample. You refuse. She has the cop jump on your chest. You refuse. She attempts to insert a catheter (which does hurt btw). You refuse. The cop tasers you (x2). You are now very wealthy.
Cops do not have the authority to enforce hospital policy.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"Because Wheeler said he had used the drugs, Florida Hospital officials wanted a urine sample."
No place in that article did it say the police requested a urine sample.
Are you suggesting that one of the cops, after engaging in phone-sex with an off duty nurse, accidently left his cell phone on during the questioning of Antonio, and the nurse, upon hearing Antonio's admission, demanded that they bring Antonio in for a urine test?
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I'm just going by the limited information that the article provides.
What would be worse than a cop being fired would be if an 18 year veteran cop was permanently disabled because a crack head was out of line.
Furious,
In the scenerio that you state I would agree with you. The hospital does not have the right to force you.
BUT, if you are under arrest in a hospital undergoing medical treatment I don't think you have a whole lot of freedoms. It's not like they were trying to take a kidney, they wanted a urine sample (for what sounds like medical reasons not criminal evidence). This sample might tell them if there's anything majorly out of wack with the guy that he might die of if not treated.
God forbid a guy wacked out on cocaine dies under police custody. The hospitals now are damed if you do damed if you don't. They can almost be sued for anything and have to practice "deffensive medicine" because they cannot financially afford not to.
I just don't see an admitted coke head getting tasered by a cop for struggling with hospital personell a major violation or "torture" as the article describes.
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Even in the military they can't force you to have a catheter placed for a urine drug screen.
And a patient of sound mind cannot legally be forced to do anything that he doesn't want to. Just to state the obvious here.
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undergoing medical treatment
Medical treatment for what? Yer acting like the urine test was a side thing... to his medical treatment.
No... It was the sole reason he was brought into the hospital in the first place. The only reason he was in a hospital bed was to get his urine.
And he wasn't OD'n on coke, trust me. And if he told the cops the truth, went peacefully into the hospital and only started freakin' out when they wanted to shove something up his dick, then he was pretty clear headed if you ask me.
I agree, there's way too much that wasn't said in the article. Hopefully a Floridian here can update this.
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Originally posted by Furious
LOL Airhead, you dork.
lets imagine a scenario.
You walk in to a hospital and tell the nurse you did coke. She requests a piss sample, because that is hospital policy. You refuse. She demands. You refuse. She calls a police officer. You refuse. She has you strapped down. You refuse. She once again demands a sample. You refuse. She has the cop jump on your chest. You refuse. She attempts to insert a catheter (which does hurt btw). You refuse. The cop tasers you (x2). You are now very wealthy.
Cops do not have the authority to enforce hospital policy.
Once admitted the hospital has a LEGAL OBLIGATION to treat you if you appear to be a deranged person.
Without knowing which drugs this dirtbag had ingested it would be impossible to properly treat him, and it was his CARE that was the number one priority in this situation- not building a case against the guy.
How do you know the officer wasn't concerned for the dirt bag's medical emergency and acted only to possibly save his life? What if the Officer knew he was bending the rules but tasered the dirtbag out of compassion?
You are too cynical.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
...I just don't see an admitted coke head getting tasered by a cop for struggling with hospital personell a major violation or "torture" as the article describes.
You are fine with a cop tasering a criminal suspect while he was handcuffed to a hospital bed and then secured with leather straps??
He wasn't running around the room assualting folks. He was strapped down.
What, in your opinion would be the limit of allowable actions a police officer may take in order to forcibly extract a urine sample?
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Originally posted by Airhead
...You are too cynical.
..and your trolls have no power over me. :aok :aok
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Originally posted by Furious
You are fine with a cop tasering a criminal suspect while he was handcuffed to a hospital bed and then secured with leather straps??
He wasn't running around the room assualting folks. He was strapped down.
What, in your opinion would be the limit of allowable actions a police officer may take in order to forcibly extract a urine sample?
very good point BUT. while he is restrained the police are responsible for him. Even people in restraints can cause harm to other people and especially themselves. If he'd injured himself the police are responsible. I've seen criminals get brain damage because they bashed their heads againts things while in cuffs.
I'm sure en4rcer could tell you stories of cops and perps alike getting injured WHILE they are restrained.
Just cause he's tied up don't mean he can't do no harm.
BUT I will admit this story is lacking in details and this could go both ways.
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Originally posted by rpm
5mg of Haldol would have done the trick and nobody would be in trouble. The guy was already handcuffed and leather strapped to the bed.
IV Lasix and he'd a been spoutin' like a fountain in about 5 minutes....
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Originally posted by Manedew
They are running right over our rights, yet even the media doesn't see them running over the 5th.... seems like it must be standard practise to try to require pee tests on drug suspects ....
I refuse to pee on the grounds that I might incriminate myself!
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Originally posted by hyena426
who said they were lookin for dwi? .i never did..... they can get a breathalizer for dwi..need urine or blood or spinal tap{spinals are illegal anymore to force}..to prove you are higher than a kite while driving
because blood test are not cheap or free...needs to go to a lab and wait a day or 2 before they get results.urine test are cheap and get faster results
they can tell if your high on crack coke or meth when pulled over..because your eyes will allmost look black because your pupils get really wide..it is very easy to tell some one is messed up on meth..why do you think cops point there flash light in your eyes? to watch your pupils diolate..and if they dont..they know your high as hell...and most drugs like meth are visible right away in your system.. alot of truck drivers use meth to stay up late..and its only in your system for 2 or 3 days...thats why its the fav of truck drivers...long as they dont do somthing stupid they wont get pulled over before they have to take a pee test..but!! if they do get pulled over and a cop thinks he is high on meth..he gots all the right to give him a pee test
as for this case..he allready said he was high..i dont think they needed to tazer him
I was talking about whether urine is evidence enough to get convicted and problems of urine testing. Do you think it would stand in court if the suspects pupils are wide there's traces of drugs in urine?
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Originally posted by hyena426
if they do get pulled over and a cop thinks he is high on meth..he gots all the right to give him a pee test
What will happen if it's positive?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
A cathider (SP) is not a rape it is a standard medical practice. This guy was not tortured nor was he beat. All the dramatics aside he was ordered to do something right or wrong and he refused.
It's a rape, if they do this against your will.
I'm pretty sure ,you Gunslinger don't want to have one inserted in your noodle against your will.
Ethically there is no difference between a kidney and a urine sample.
The cop and and the nurses need to be fired IMO.
I find strange a cop can legally ask for samples in the US, it don't work like that here.
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Originally posted by straffo
It's a rape, if they do this against your will.
I'm pretty sure ,you Gunslinger don't want to have one inserted in your noodle against your will.
Ethically there is no difference between a kidney and a urine sample.
The cop and and the nurses need to be fired IMO.
I find strange a cop can legally ask for samples in the US, it don't work like that here.
Yea that's a great solution. Fire a bunch of good hard working individuals because some coke head strugled.
Against your will or not the hospital has an obligation to treat a patient even if he's too high to give consent to do something. The article does not say they were asking for it incriminate the guy. Geesh I'm gonna stop posting this article is incomplete and I just keep saying the same thing over and over again.
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False, you'll stop posting because your reasonning is flawed from the start and you know it.
And finally ask 3 doctors what is the "treatment" for cocaine if your have the 3 same answer I'll eat my "beret".
You obvioulsy never worked with junkies and have now idea of what medical ethic mean.
And this postulate :"good hard working individuals" is nothing but a lie.
They didn't repected their own deontology what else will they not respect ?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
".....the hospital has an obligation to treat a patient..."
There you go... yet again. It's unbelievable.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yea that's a great solution. Fire a bunch of good hard working individuals because some coke head strugled.
That's like saying 'Oh yeah, great solution. That's like punishing some national guardsmen because some students protested'. The cop wouldn't be fired because the guy struggled, he would be fired because he used absolutely inappropriate levels of force on the guy. It doesn't matter if you're a rich, well respected senator or a scummy lowlife drug user, you have equal protection under the law from things like this. That's part of what makes this country great, the protection is supposed apply to everyone, not just the popular. You are, in effect, dehumanizing the suspect by suggesting that his status as a drug user somehow nullifies his rights as a US Citizen. I'd just as soon punch him in the mouth as say hello to him, but I won't say the Constitution doesn't apply to him.
Yes, you keep saying the same thing over and over again, but it demonstrates a dramatic misconception about the role of police, the rights of the individual, and the appropriate level of force.
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Originally posted by straffo
False, you'll stop posting because your reasonning is flawed from the start and you know it.
And finally ask 3 doctors what is the "treatment" for cocaine if your have the 3 same answer I'll eat my "beret".
You obvioulsy never worked with junkies and have now idea of what medical ethic mean.
And this postulate :"good hard working individuals" is nothing but a lie.
They didn't repected their own deontology what else will they not respect ?
don't do it straffo you won't look the same without it. eat the bagette instead. :D or if you are really brave try a snail :rofl
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I was talking about whether urine is evidence enough to get convicted and problems of urine testing. Do you think it would stand in court if the suspects pupils are wide there's traces of drugs in urine?
im not a drugie so i dont know how well it really stands up in court..but!! dirty pee sample is anuff evidence to get ya fired off a job....so i think if it would get ya fired off a job it would stand up in court