Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Max on March 18, 2005, 11:33:26 AM
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As of late, I've noticed an increase in the number of Fw190D's in the MA. Perhaps it's just that the new icons make them more easier to spot. In any case being a Typhoon fan, I've come to fear the Dora and would like to fly it awhile to learn it's strenghts and weaknesses.
I use DT's to alt to the fight and drop back to 1/2 of fuel. My MG's and cannons are both set to d375. How'm I doing so far? Once engaged I B&Z and use the nifty roll rate to conserve E. Having faught them, I know they have an incredible verticle zoom climb rate which seems to sustain itself forever. I just tried it myself and roped a number of Spits up. Trouble is, I couldn't pull the nose back around and down fast enought to get a firing solution.
Any tips on that? What I was doing was this: at about 150 ias, I'd pulled a half roll over while dropping a notch of flaps, and kicking about 1/2 rudder to get my tail up; noce down. By the time I pointed down the bad guy is pointed at me. What's the trick here?
DmdMax
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I'd love to tell you, but then I would to kill you MUHAAHHA!!
A little piece of me always feels like i'm cheating in a Dora. :D
You did what seems to be a textbook rope and HH. My only guess is you misjudged his E-State. Try lowering your RPMs a couple of 1000 when laying down the rope. This helps be make you fight less left roll as you start getting slow. It will also allow you to stay verticle a little longer, hopefully long enough to bleed your nme.
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i can never get the nose over stable in the dora, i am usually in a floppy nose down stall, and miss the shot, but yes it can zoom amazing. just watch those desperate D800 hispano lazers. i have died MANY a time to them in the rope.
also, here's a hint i dont like giving out... left spiral climb.
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Originally posted by JB42
I'd love to tell you, but then I would to kill you MUHAAHHA!!
Try lowering your RPMs a couple of 1000 when laying down the rope. This helps be make you fight less left roll as you start getting slow. It will also allow you to stay verticle a little longer, hopefully long enough to bleed your nme.
9 years flying sims and NO ONE has ever mentioned chopping rpms in a zoom climb. I'll give it a try.
At the top of my climb, given a roll left or right, do you have a preference?
DmdMax
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Left. Definitely. Although pulling the throttle back makes it less necessary, the nose will come down faster to the left.
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DMax said:
I've come to fear the Dora and would like to fly it awhile to learn it's strenghts and weaknesses.
You do well to Fear the Dora, young one. It is the true Weapon of the Dark Side. If you use it correctly, you're invincible.
The Dora has the following strengths:
- It is THE fastest non-perked prop plane in the game, except for the bug that allows the Yak-9U to ignore compression and greatly exceed its historical redline speeds and Gs. But otherwise, you can run down or out-run every other non-perked planes at most alts, even down to the deck, although the speed difference with some like lamer7s and 109g10s is very small.
- It has good firepower with 2x13mm and 2x20mm, all of which are essentially on the centerline, although all suffer reduced ROF from being synchronized. Still, with German electric priming, that decrease isn't as bad as for other nationalities.
- It has very good E-keeping qualities in the vertical, in that it can zoom higher than most planes from the same starting speed, and it accelerates VERY quickly in a dive to get that speed right back.
- It has the usual quick FW roll rate.
- It has very good cockpit visibility.
- It has decent range under the 2.0 FBR with a DT. And because it needs the DT, flying the Dora keeps you from needlessly dying in jabo attacks. Leave that for the kamikaze dweebs :).
- It's very durable. It can usually take a few cannonballs and keep on going with nothing showing in CTRL-D. It can also survive collisions. You can, for instance, run a wingtip into most other planes and come off missing just an aileron, whereas the other plane might lose a wing.
- It's got that whole Dark Side mystique going.
- If you're immune to its harmful effects, you can pipe the methanol boost into your oxygen mask to wet your throat as you fly. Methanol immunity is gradually acquired over many hops, and goes some way to fix your nitrous jones that you got in the A8 model :D.
Weaknesses:
- The Dora doesn't hold E well in hard flat turns, as if any Dora pilot's gong to do that anyway.
- I can't think of any others.
So, to fly the Dora, you get a lot of alt, then a lot of speed, and you stay fast. Always fight with an initial E advantage. You use the vertical, doing a rapid series of aggressive high yoyos and lag rolls, never giving the nme time to catch his breath, to bleed the target into wallowing helplessness while you maintain enough speed to be safe from most other nmes in the typical fight. You kill the nme, you extend with your speed, you grab some alt back, and you return to the furball. Then you RTB when out of fuel. Odds are, you won't take any damage except from acks and HOs. You should never get shot in the back except, perhaps, by another Dora, provided you don't get stupid.
I use DT's to alt to the fight and drop back to 1/2 of fuel. My MG's and cannons are both set to d375. How'm I doing so far?
Not well. Always take full tanks. The ONLY reason to ever go with less fuel is to turn harder in a stallfight, which is NOT what you do in the Dora. OTOH, the heavier you are, the quicker you accelerate in a dive, and the more momentum you have in a zoom, which is making the Dora's strengths even better. Also, you need all that fuel to be able to fly the 1.5 - 2 sectors needed to grab 20k on ingress, to grab some alt between engagements during the furball, and for the trip home. Besides, you might want to chase, or be chased by, a 109g10 or lamer7. This will be a LONG chase, and you can always run them out of gas, which is a lot of fun :).
Also, your convergence needs work. You need to set the 20mm at about 200 yards and the MGs at about 300. This gives them all good concentration at the only effective ranges in the games, which are between 100 and 300 yards. Try never to shoot from beyond 200 yards except in 0-deflection chase, and NEVER shoot head-on except at buffs. But in any case, you can usually get 1-pass kills at these ranges with these convergence settings, even if only about 1/2 a second of fire hits the target. You get enough hits close enough together to do fatal damage. I usually run out of fuel LONG before I run outta ammo, but that's because I'm very careful picking my shots.
Once engaged I B&Z and use the nifty roll rate to conserve E. Having faught them, I know they have an incredible verticle zoom climb rate which seems to sustain itself forever. I just tried it myself and roped a number of Spits up. Trouble is, I couldn't pull the nose back around and down fast enought to get a firing solution.
BnZ is a total waste of time. All it gets you is HOs. What you need to do is fairly tight high yoyos to stay inside the nme's turn and keep your passes close enough together in time that the nme can't catch his breath between them. 2 or 3 of these and the nme is bled so much he can't go vertical at all and can barely turn, so you'll have an excellent butt-shot at him as you scream by.
Ropes are fun to do but the problem with them is that they require the nme to be very stupid. They rely on his Greed. Any pilot worth his salt will see the trap and not follow you up enough to get in trouble. This is why you need to use the nme's Fear instead. Cut your zooms off lower and tighter, pulling over with a higher speed instead of waiting until you nearly stall. Not only does this make your next pass happen sooner, it keeps you inside the nme's turn so you build angles and keep the pressure on, so the nme is forced to bleed a lot or die right then.
Any tips on that? What I was doing was this: at about 150 ias, I'd pulled a half roll over while dropping a notch of flaps, and kicking about 1/2 rudder to get my tail up; noce down. By the time I pointed down the bad guy is pointed at me. What's the trick here?
Supose you spot a lower nme so you swoop at him. First you have to do the swoop correctly. Dive steeply down to his alt or a bit below while still a long way from him horizontally, then approach him more or less co-alt on the level, perhaps in a slight climb. This keeps you from diving below the nme, which is about the worst mistake you can make. Give the nme just enough horizontal separation on the approach to avoid getting HO'd, then start your vertical move while you're still several hundred yards out, like about the time you'd shoot if you were a HOdweeb. Hope the nme fires, because that proves he's an idiot and you'll easily get into his rear hemi because he's bound to overshoot you :).
Your vertical move is a form of high yoyo that might end up becoming a lag roll. It'll end up looking like a loop that's twisted in several places. Basically, as you start up, you roll, pull, roll, pull, etc., as needed to keep yourself heading into the nme's rear hemi, while going up high enough to be sure he can't follow you even with bullets. Then you come back down, NOT when you have a certain speed, but when you're in the correct position relative to the nme to be coming in from his rear hemi.
As you start to close in towards firing range, the nme will turn hard into you. At this point, you DO NOT continue in for a shot, because that will be a bad snapshot and will force you to overshoot his turn. Instead, go back up and do the same sort of thing again, only it's easier this time because you're starting behind the nme already instead of in front of him. You do this 2nd vertical move from at least 400 yards out. The closer you are to the nme, the harder it is to stay in his rear hemi. You should expect this sequence of events, and not even THINK about pulling the trigger until the next pass at the earliest, if then.
OK, now you're coming in again on the nme's rear hemi, probably with somewhat better angles. This time, the nme's pretty well bled down and totally defensive, having realized your E superiority by now. So odds are, he'll go straight as you close in trying to rebuild his speed, and then make a hard break at the last second just before you're in range. You should expect this to happen and already be starting 1 last yoyo. And this time, the nme'll be too bled down to even do this, and you'll have him dead. 1 touch of the trigger and he dies. Then you extend away from the other nmes and grab some alt prior to your next engagement.
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or you can make 3 clumsy HO passes before extending to the horizon like 99% of the dora's do ;)
Nice post Bullethead , not meaning to take away from it , just be nice to see more people actually use it like that.
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Redd said:
or you can make 3 clumsy HO passes before extending to the horizon like 99% of the dora's do ;)
Hey Redd, long time no talkie! Hope all is well with you.
Anyway, yeah, that's a real shame. Makes me sick to see such a great plane so incompetently handled. But that's been the sad fact of life since the Great Dweeb Invasion of the late 90s so thoroughly diluted the talent pool. Nobody much knows what real E-fighting is these days. All the dweebs care about is the RTS aspect of capturing bases, so all they know about is making a bombrun and then turning till they die. They only fly E-fighters because they carry the most ord, and only use them for kamikaze pork runs. They don't even try to fight, because they know these planes don't turn, and that's all they know how to do. If they want to fight, they go with a stallfighter and their tactical thinking all centers around "the merge", as if that was something you're actually supposed to do outside of an arranged duel. The only other type of combat they've ever heard of is BnZ, which they mistakenly think is E-fighting. So when I do what I outlined above, basically making a Dora turn inside a spit and keeping it there while staying faster, I get accused of cheating on a regular basis :(.
be nice to see more people actually use it like that.
I agree. But it don't seem like very many folks have the patience required for it. They just can't get over their stallfighter habit of taking every snapshot that comes along, so just can't grasp the idea of deliberately breaking off early on what look like good shots, at least at the start of the pass. So they close in too soon, the nme turns hard as they do so, and they end up with a high-deflection snapshot that they probably miss, they overshoot well beyond the nme's turn, and blow a lot of E doing it. Then the nme revs back into them and they die because they no longer have speed and the nme turns better. After doing this several times, they give up on E-fighters and go back to being spitdweebs :(
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Originally posted by Bullethead
You do well to Fear the Dora, young one. It is the true Weapon of the Dark Side. If you use it correctly, you're invincible.
The Dora has the following strengths:
- It is THE fastest non-perked prop plane in the game, except for the bug that allows the Yak-9U to ignore compression and greatly exceed its historical redline speeds and Gs. But otherwise, you can run down or out-run every other non-perked planes at most alts, even down to the deck, although the speed difference with some like lamer7s and 109g10s is very small.
[/B]
Nice post, Bullethead.
I recently tested most of the faster aircraft for acceleration, climb and speed at various altitudes.
On the deck, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane except the La-7, and this tested at 375 mph for the Dora, 380 mph for the La-7.
As you go up the both the Dora and the La-7 are overtaken by the 109G-10.
Here's some measured speeds at altitudes for several aircraft:
28.5K
109G-10: 436 mph
P-51D: 433 mph
P-38J: 412 mph
190D-9: 406 mph
25K
109G-10: 443 mph
P-51D: 441 mph
190D-9: 421 mph
P-38J: 420 mph
20K
109G-10: 444 mph
190D-9: 426 mph
P-51D: 425 mph
P-38J: 405 mph
Sea level
La-7: 380 mph
190D-9: 375 mph
P51D: 367 mph
109G-10: 366 mph
P-38J: 343 mph
Acceleration from 200 mph to 300 mph @ 20K (time to speed in seconds).
P-38J: 27.47
109G-10: 29.28
190D-9: 30.78
P-51D: 34.01
La-7: 40.10
Acceleration from 200 mph to 300 mph @ sea level
La-7: 28.78
109G-10: 28.97
190D-9: 30.83
Ki-84: 35.96
P-38J: 36.57
P-51D: 36.93
Yak-9U: 37.40
Time to climb from sea level to 10k, starting @ 300 mph (minutes:seconds)
109G-10: 1:46.18
P-38J: 2:03.57
Ki-84: 2:04.09
190D-9: 2:04.35
La-7: 2:06.91
My regards,
Widewing
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Like I said elsewhere....the J's a monster
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Bullethead that's a GREAT read. I just sent ya e-mail via the board about getting some 1 v 1 training time with ya at your convenience. Let me know if you don't get it.
DmdMax
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Im no where near a Dora pilot.
But when comming over the top... flaps? In most planes that makes the nose over faster and more stable.
Tex
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Great write Bullethead.
But, I wouldn't discount a good pilot using the stall technique. There is always room for another procedure.
JB42 (and other JB's) are as good with a Dora I have seen. I fly with them every chance I get just to get a learn on.
I can't wait to work on your style if I can transfer it from words to the cockpit.
Thanks again.
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Widewing said:
I recently tested most of the faster aircraft for acceleration, climb and speed at various altitudes. On the deck, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane except the La-7, and this tested at 375 mph for the Dora, 380 mph for the La-7. As you go up the both the Dora and the La-7 are overtaken by the 109G-10.
Sorry to be so lagged here. I'm a truckdriver and was gone this time much longer than normal.
Anyway, I know the Dora's not supposed to be the fastest non-perked, non-porked plane. And on the flat level, it isn't, as your data show.
However, if you take low yoyos into account, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane. I've run down and out-run many lamer7s and 109G10s that way. It all goes back to the Dora's great zoom ability and dive acceleration. In a low yoyo, the Dora loses insignificant speed going up, and gains a fair amount coming down, so can maintain a higher average speed than anything else, even if the other plane is also doing low yoyos. Nothing else does low yoyos as well. Either they lose speed going up or don't gain as much coming down. The Dora can maintain about 400 knots on the deck this way indefinitely, even without WEP, and gradually out-run anything else.
The only non-perked plane that can catch or get away from a Dora is the Yak-9U, and this only due to the bug that lets it breeze through compression without harm at about double its historical redline speed. But on an NOE low yoyo run, where the 9U's bug doesn't come into play, the Dora is faster.
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Originally posted by Bullethead
The only non-perked plane that can catch or get away from a Dora is the Yak-9U, and this only due to the bug that lets it breeze through compression without harm at about double its historical redline speed.
Uh ?
What are you speaking about ?
And can you back your affirmation with fact and data ?
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straffo said:
And can you back your affirmation with fact and data ?
I have a book, Red Star Volume 5, Yakovlev's Piston-Engined Fighters, by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Khazanov, that gives all kinds of cool info on all types of WW2 Yaks from original Soviet and factory sources. This is what it has to say about the 9U's redlines. This is actually from the chapter on the 9P, which was a 9U totally made of metal, whereas the 9U had a metal wing spar with wood skin and mostly wood ribs.
From page 99:
... thanks to (the all-metal wing), the (9P's) indicated airspeed in a dive could be increased from (the 9U's) 650kmph to 720kmph (404 to 447mph), and the maximum G load in recovery from a dive was brought up to 8.0 instead of 6.5.
What happened with 9Us if they got much above 404mph IAS was they started shedding hunks of wing skin, with usually fatal results. This was a problem shared by all wood-wing Yaks dating back to the prototype. The 9P didn't have this problem, however, because of its all-metal wing.
In the game, however, you can get a 9U to about 600 IAS without any harm done. Not only that, but while it starts buffeting from compression, the controls still work after a fashion, at least much better than those of other planes. Thus, the 9U can out-dive every plane in the game simply because of its immunity to most of the compression problems that affect other planes. And you can't break anything unless you pull over 8 Gs, which is rather above the historical redline G noted above, too.
Anyway, that's the data I got. The 9U seems to be able to go much faster, and pull higher Gs, than it could in real life. I'm not so concerned about the G loading, but the excess speed, especially because it ignores the compression effects that make other planes stop accelerating and totally lock up at considerably lower speeds. That to me is a bug, which is why I refer to the 9U as porked.
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Originally posted by Bullethead
- It's very durable. It can usually take a few cannonballs and keep on going with nothing showing in CTRL-D. It can also survive collisions. You can, for instance, run a wingtip into most other planes and come off missing just an aileron, whereas the other plane might lose a wing.[/B]
The collision model in this game isn't modeled on the actual impact, but rather a who-done-it scenario. The game compares who had a better chance of avoiding the collision and punishes them more severly.
If you can make the game think you aren't trying to collide with people, your rank will be -3000000 :D
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Bullethead you are speaking of build quality not aerodynamism/design :)
I've to go but I'll check my ref. later .
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Bullethead sums it up very good.
But i might at one thing or two.
Going over the top is extremely tough with the Dora as its almost impossible to make a clean wingover or hammerhead, i would not go with that move for any rope. If a con was so stupid to follow you up and you see he won't be able to close the distance and you want to go over the top, just do this. Keep the nose vertical until you reach around 160 IAS, than extend 1-2 notches of flaps and give really only a tad back pressure. Than the D9 will fall over its cockpit. Its really important here to let the plane literally do it itself. To much elevator input and you stall out.
The Dora can even be extremely deadly in furballs at beer bottle height. I really love it to take of from an AF with a large furball around, roughly even numbers and many many spits, nikis and other TnB planes. The trick here is to stay fast and use the exellent accel and roll the Dora provides you with.
For defense in emergency it can necessary to reduce speed to absolute minimum flying speed. I advice you to practise it. Go to the DA or TA, and fly circles with full flaps and ~100IAS. It works, you have to reduce throttle somewhat, because otherwise the D9 won't stay that slow. Handle the elevator with care. Once you manage to fly multiple 360°s to both sides, try out scissors at minimums speed.
If you get used to them, it can save your budd once in a while, especially against LA7s, P51s and G10s.
Ask Redd, although he kicks me around in the DA all the time, i atleast could show him how slow you can get a D9 and still be in controlled flight. :)
@Bullethead: I have to try that out with the low-yo-yos. Do you reduce RPM while doing it. Cause i fly the Dora almost exclusively but i can't maintain ~400mph on the deck using low yo yos and WEP.
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using the full flaps, and being 100 (or even a touch under) you can really shock some pony poilts who think they are untouchable with flaps down low.
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Yup, what 73 said. You dont want to do it in a furball with a bunch of Spits, but the D-9 can be slowed down and turned quite well. Because it accellerates so quickly, that gives you the ability to take the risk of slowing down, and build back your E in a short time.
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Grits, its one of the funnierst thing you can do in a furball against spits/Niki (as long as Levi isn't among them).
They just don't expect a FW190 to slow down that much and you will force lots of overshots that way.
Sadly i always forget to record my flights, otherwise i could show you some fun guncam footage.
But i would not recommend that for everyday use of the Dora.
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Originally posted by Naudet
Grits, its one of the funnierst thing you can do in a furball against spits/Niki (as long as Levi isn't among them).
They just don't expect a FW190 to slow down that much and you will force lots of overshots that way.
Sadly i always forget to record my flights, otherwise i could show you some fun guncam footage.
But i would not recommend that for everyday use of the Dora.
i sent morpheus a film of just that, made an n1k2 overshoot among others, supposedly he's working on the film.
it's a great example of a typical sortie in the MA for me
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Its really unfortunate, I think of La7s on a higher level than 99% of the 190 drivers in the MA. At least the La7 driver attempt to fight, the 190 drivers aren't that interested. :(
I'm hoping there is a resurgence of good 190 flying following the new models being released. If not, re-doing them was a complete waste of effort, imho.
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people like you whine that the 190 wont stay and turn fight your spit or whatever, knowing full well their plane is not designed to twist around on the treetops.
every time you find a spit that wants that there are 5+ other cons in icon range, and if the 190 were to get "down and dirty" they'd be bounced by the 5 other spits that come zooming in.
if the 190 extends up, the poor wittle spitoon dweeb screams bloody murder that the 190 is afraid to fight or some other nonsence BS on CH200 or in the forums.
just because not everyone wants to fly their 190 like a moronic fool and get killed by your twisty plane dont whine here, just shut up and go fight a n1k or something
this thread is about helping others learn more about the 190, and you come in here just top bash it and the people who fly it.
go away unless you have actual comments aiding the discussion
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Originally posted by Naudet
Grits, its one of the funnierst thing you can do in a furball against spits/Niki (as long as Levi isn't among them).
They just don't expect a FW190 to slow down that much and you will force lots of overshots that way.
Sadly i always forget to record my flights, otherwise i could show you some fun guncam footage.
But i would not recommend that for everyday use of the Dora.
I do the same thing, but I try to give people good advice, and avoid tellng them to do the stupid things I do. :)
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I loves you too :)
(of course, you know I'm right)
The last really good 190 flyer I saw that mixed it up was Wilbus. What ever happened to him?
Originally posted by JB73
go away unless you have actual comments aiding the discussion
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Originally posted by Bullethead
In the game, however, you can get a 9U to about 600 IAS without any harm done. Not only that, but while it starts buffeting from compression, the controls still work after a fashion, at least much better than those of other planes. Thus, the 9U can out-dive every plane in the game simply because of its immunity to most of the compression problems that affect other planes. And you can't break anything unless you pull over 8 Gs, which is rather above the historical redline G noted above, too.
I tested and got the same result (provided the testing method was good)
Strange.
I did test also the 51 and was unable to pull up.
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OZ662 said:
If you can make the game think you aren't trying to collide with people, your rank will be -3000000 :D
Rank is for scorepotatos. The object of the game is to beat the nme, either by killing him or totally frustrating his plans. If I can dance on the heads of 8 nmes upping a 100% field, and keep them all there and low, I keep them from going off and porking 1 of my fields. So even if I don't fire a shot for 20 minutes and rtb sans fuel with full ammo, I'm happy.
As to collisions, I set my guns at 200 and try to stay at about 400 knots during my firing passes. With the icon ranges now being guestimates, I accept the fact that I'm going to ram a target once in a while. But Hell, if I didn't, I'd be shooting from too far away to be effective :D. It's this type of collision that the Dora survives quite well.
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straffo said
Bullethead you are speaking of build quality not aerodynamism/design.
Dive a bunch of different planes into compression. You'll note that they all behave differently. They all reach a different speed before they stop accelerating, they all lock up the controls at different speeds, and they all start shedding different parts at different speeds. Therefore, I assume HTC is attempting to model not only compression effects but structural strength.
No Yak-9 with a wooden wing could go as fast as AH's 9U and remain in 1 piece. I don't care whether the aerodynamics would let it, which I seriously doubt because the 9U did NOT have a laminar wing (just 1 experimental model did, but no production models). So first off, I think there's a bug in the 9U that gives it a pass on compression. Second, even if aerodynamically it COULD go that fast in theory, it simply wasn't built strong enough to take the stress. That's not build quality, that's inherent weakness of the design. The 9U should lose major wing pieces long before it reaches the speeds it can in AH. This happened in real life to all types of wood-wing yaks, including hand-built special models and prototypes lovingly built with Stalin breathing down their necks, so it wasn't the fault of shoddy workmanship at relocated factories manned by conscripted peasants.
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Naudet said:
Grits, its one of the funnierst thing you can do in a furball against spits/Niki (as long as Levi isn't among them).
They just don't expect a FW190 to slow down that much and you will force lots of overshots that way.
All FWs can also do what I call the "Bleed Turn". The A-models do it better than the Dora, but that just means in the Dora you can't use it on spit5s and anything already real slow. Save it for faster spits and ponies if you're in a Dora.
Anyway, the Bleed Turn works like this: You're considerably faster than a slow-ish spit and are closing in for the kill from dead astern. He just has the juice left to make a hard flat turn, he can't really go vertical. So he starts his turn. And you turn your FW hard enough to keep pure pursuit, then tighten to lead pursuit as you slide in behind. The FWs bleed speed so fast when you do this that you pretty much drop instantly down to co-speed, perhaps a bit slower, so their turn radius tightens up faster than the target's. This lets the FW turn inside the hard-turning spit, FOR A MOMENT.
DO NOT hold this turn for more than 1/4 of a circle or you'll blow way too much speed. But you should get a good shot, or at least a blind, under-nose tracking shot, in this brief time. But assume you miss. Now you're co-E with a stallfighter, which is not what you want to do with an FW. So you straighten out and dive away as best you can and rely on your acceleration. The nme either has to turn 3/4 more of the circle or blow even more E revving hard back at you. By the time he does, you'll be out of range and will gradually pull away as you either dive, low yoyo, or accelerate on the level.
Another cool FW trick is the split-s under 1k AGL. If you're slow enough, it's like going over the top as somebody described above. The plane just falls over and around. So you can do a tighter low-speed split-s than most other planes. If they try to follow you, they'll black out while pointed down at low alt :). Mostly, however, they can't follow so will have to cut off at an angle to avoid augering. You meanwhile get enough speed back as you go down to stay out of range once they're pointed at you again, and if you see you're too low you can use your wonderful roll rate to angle off a bit yourself. Practice this offline until you can do it at 700' AGL or even less. This is always a good last-ditch evasive move when you've gotten stupid and are low and slow in an FW.
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Naudet said:
@Bullethead: I have to try that out with the low-yo-yos. Do you reduce RPM while doing it. Cause i fly the Dora almost exclusively but i can't maintain ~400mph on the deck using low yo yos and WEP.
No, I never touch the RPM unless I'm trying to stretch my fuel.
The low yoyo thing requires being VERY gentle on the stick to keep the Gs at 2 or less. Any more and you waste speed, and you don't dare do that or the lamer will either get away or get you. So you EASE into a very shallow climb, like 1-1.5k/min which, at about 400, you don't even notice as a climb. Gain a few hundred feet, then EASE into a 0-G dive and EASE back out of it right above the deck. Concentrate on very slow, very smooth stick movements.
Anyway, this works for me. I can catch or get away from lamer7s doing this, although it takes a LONG time. I see the lamer7 doing low yoyos himself, but to no avail. I can still stay just an RCH faster than him.
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That 1k Split-S thingie sounds great. Never though of using the "over the top" flip as an emergency move at low alt.
About the lo-yo-yo, i am very gentle on the stick, it have also calibrated it in a way that allows me very soft G-loadchanges between 1-3Gs. Will practise this if i find the time.
And the "Bleed turn" are very useful move, but you have to be sure to hit, cause if you miss you will have to build up E first before returning to the fight.
I noticed that after getting my TrackIR i got considerably better at that.
In the D9 it often helps against slow turners like SpitVs to cut the throttle in this turn. This will slow you down extremly fast.
Again all this is not recommended for everyday use, as is has a high potential to leave you low and slow.
@Grits: The stupid things are the most fun. And i added the recommendation so anyone is warned. ;) :D
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Originally posted by Bullethead
Second, even if aerodynamically it COULD go that fast in theory, it simply wasn't built strong enough to take the stress.
In Soviet Russia, Yak strong like bear, flies YOU.
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I'm nearly done with that film JB73. I dont want to just throw it together not being done and leave it at that.
If you could persuade my college professors to lighten my workload I might have a little more time to get it finished up faster.
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no worries bud ; ) !
take your time, if i was really worried i'd be emailing you every other day saying :
is it finished yet
is it finished yet
is it finished yet
is it finished yet
is it finished yet
is it finished yet
LOL ; ) and take your time, don't rush out something you are not happy with
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I prefer the G-10 myself, though I have been known to fly the 190a-8 from time to time. :aok
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I have read in books that a pilot with a superior rolling aircraft, such as a 190 or P47 can cut inside the break turn of a better turning aircraft, by using what the book called a "lag displacement roll." If the e.a. turned left, then you would roll right 180ish degrees and turn hard left to cut inside for a descent quick shot. Is this feasible and does anyone do it with any success? And is it really just roll right and pullthrough, or is it like half a barrel roll that has to be properly timed ie a short delay after the break before initiating the roll? I have read some wonderful pointers in this thread that are more important for me to practice, but I was curious about this move that I read about.
Thanx
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yes, almost every sortie brentlo
that's what is commonly reffered to as a "snapshot" you get one quick snap of a shot as they pass right in front of you, then you pull up into the vert usually.
it is very common in the BnZ or boom and zoom fighting style. even at twice the speed a dora can snap roll, pull back, and roll out flat again inside a spitfire for a split second.
the trick is aim, it is a hard shot, and 1/2 the time you hcan not see the plane you are attacking, you have to anticipate where he is going to pot up below your cowl.
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Got it, thanx 73.
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Brentlo said:
I have read in books that a pilot with a superior rolling aircraft, such as a 190 or P47 can cut inside the break turn of a better turning aircraft, by using what the book called a "lag displacement roll." If the e.a. turned left, then you would roll right 180ish degrees and turn hard left to cut inside for a descent quick shot.ie a short delay after the break before initiating the roll? Is this feasible and does anyone do it with any success?
This isn't something I recommend doing regularly, at least until you're quite proficient with less risky moves and are feeling kinda cocky about your blind-shooting ability. Or do it only when you're really desperate, like trying to stop the spit from killing the goon, or when you've already resigned yourself to death. It can be done, but it's a low-percentage thing at the best of times and usually does more harm than good if you're in an FW. In a 51, which can stand more hard turning before falling outta the sky, it's a safer proposition, but still low-percentage.
In general, when you're doing real E-fighting (as opposed to BnZ, which is a waste of everybody's time), you should avoid snapshots like the plague. Real E-fighting consists of an aggressive, quick succession of vertical moves, the whole object of which is to build up great angles over several rapid passes while simultaneously bleeding the nme down until he's a sitting duck. You make several passes on the nme, each more threatening than the last as you exploit the vertical to work towards his tail. Each time you come in, you force the nme to make a hard evasive move that blows some of his E. But you don't follow through into guns range on the first few passes, you break off early and go back up. This makes it easier to gain even more angles for your next pass.
This is why snapshots are bad things for E-fighters. Due to the short effective range of the weapons, combined with your high speed and the nme's tight turn radius at his low speed, closing into guns range from any angle outside the nme's 5-7 rear cone pretty much guarantees you'll overshoot his turn. And when you overshoot, you blow most if not all of the angles you've built up so far, because the nme can rev back in behind you or just continue around to meet you head-on next time. So now you have to start all over, but it's more difficult now because you've used up some of your own E getting to this point, so you have much less of an E advantage to work with for the necessary vertical moves to re-establish your angles. Plus you've wasted a lot of time, which is your biggest enemy. As time passes, more nmes arrive, there's a greater chance you'll make a mistake, and if you give any dweeb enough time, he'll find a way to kill you.
This is why everybody says E-fighting requires patience. You have to suppress the urge to take snapshots early in the fight, knowing that if you keep on working this target as you've been doing, you'll eventually end up with a perfect, low-deflection tracking shot. AH2's gunnery model makes patience in E-fighting more vital than ever before. There's a real premium on accuracy, and the best way to get that is at point-blank range from right behind the target. Don't settle for anything else. When you've achieved the angles and E advantage required to get a tempting snapshot opportunity, just remember that 1 more high yoyo will probably get you a perfect shot. So have the patience to break off well outside of guns range and go up 1 more time.
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Originally posted by Brentlo
I have read in books that a pilot with a superior rolling aircraft, such as a 190 or P47 can cut inside the break turn of a better turning aircraft, by using what the book called a "lag displacement roll." If the e.a. turned left, then you would roll right 180ish degrees and turn hard left to cut inside for a descent quick shot. Is this feasible and does anyone do it with any success? And is it really just roll right and pullthrough, or is it like half a barrel roll that has to be properly timed ie a short delay after the break before initiating the roll? I have read some wonderful pointers in this thread that are more important for me to practice, but I was curious about this move that I read about.
Thanx
I think bullethead mis-read this move a little. This is a pretty classic lag turn move. This IS E-fighting at it's finest. Lets assume your in a 190D9 trailing a spit9 and he does a hard flat left turn. You roll right 90 and, without stopping your roll, start to pull back on the stick turning into a nose low barrel roll. Once your mostly oriented to the left you'll complete this as a deep lag low yo-yo. You'll need to be faster then him. Basically what your looking to do is get a little below him, offset your turn radius a bit, and drop into deep lag persuit using your speed to shoot past his tail and out of sight while you finish getting around on him. One of three things happen here -- he can continue his turn in which case your off set large radius turn will quickly give you a very hittable low angle deflection shot. He can cut and extend in which case your faster then him and below him, which sets you up for a more effecient high yo-yo after the next move to regain any E you lost. Or, if he is a much more competent pilot, as soon as you start heading below his 6 line he'll reverse his turn to get you in view, which gives you an easy snapshot-into-extend but may expose you to a low probability reversal. This last possibility is dangerous, but not really any more dangerous then him cutting into you when you dweeb it out with high yo-yos.
In other words go ahead and put this in your routine. Tricks like this make your E game less predictable, and more effective. Just think this through first and be prepared for any counter your opponent throws out, as very few people in the MA know how to exploit lag turns and you'll see some crazy stuff get thrown at you when you fly out of their playbook.
-pellik
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The lag or vector roll is especially useful if you try to follow a break turning bandit in a multiplane engagement.
The guy usually sees you breaking away from him in the first stage of the move, flatens out and focuses on another target, while you are actually comin back at him and get a nice clean low 6 shot.
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Thanks for the replies gentlemen, very informative.
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Originally posted by pellik
In other words go ahead and put this in your routine. Tricks like this make your E game less predictable, and more effective. Just think this through first and be prepared for any counter your opponent throws out, as very few people in the MA know how to exploit lag turns and you'll see some crazy stuff get thrown at you when you fly out of their playbook.
-pellik
Well said pellik. I have seen some crazy stuff when you do this. The most common reaction is to fly straight and level, I think they are so used to looking for guys in lead or pure pursuit that they dont even see you when you are in low 6 lag pursuit. Most of them also dont expect any fast plane like the P47's, 190's and such to pull such an aggressive move and think you just extended.
It is risky, but the payoff is worth the risk IMO.
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just flew the new FM dora....
toss out all you know ; )
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Originally posted by Widewing
Nice post, Bullethead.
I recently tested most of the faster aircraft for acceleration, climb and speed at various altitudes.
On the deck, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane except the La-7, and this tested at 375 mph for the Dora, 380 mph for the La-7.
As you go up the both the Dora and the La-7 are overtaken by the 109G-10.
Here's some measured speeds at altitudes for several aircraft:
28.5K
109G-10: 436 mph
P-51D: 433 mph
P-38J: 412 mph
190D-9: 406 mph
25K
109G-10: 443 mph
P-51D: 441 mph
190D-9: 421 mph
P-38J: 420 mph
20K
109G-10: 444 mph
190D-9: 426 mph
P-51D: 425 mph
P-38J: 405 mph
Sea level
La-7: 380 mph
190D-9: 375 mph
P51D: 367 mph
109G-10: 366 mph
P-38J: 343 mph
Acceleration from 200 mph to 300 mph @ 20K (time to speed in seconds).
P-38J: 27.47
109G-10: 29.28
190D-9: 30.78
P-51D: 34.01
La-7: 40.10
Acceleration from 200 mph to 300 mph @ sea level
La-7: 28.78
109G-10: 28.97
190D-9: 30.83
Ki-84: 35.96
P-38J: 36.57
P-51D: 36.93
Yak-9U: 37.40
Time to climb from sea level to 10k, starting @ 300 mph (minutes:seconds)
109G-10: 1:46.18
P-38J: 2:03.57
Ki-84: 2:04.09
190D-9: 2:04.35
La-7: 2:06.91
My regards,
Widewing
Great post Widewing! Thanks good info. Now haw about the hog accel? :)
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JB73, we need to go to the DA sometime brush off the rust that formed on my dora.
one a side note, when i do fly a 190, its usually the a5, you can really suprise spits and that butcher bird :)
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Thanks for the great info, Dora gurus.
Nice thread guys...refreshing
Regards
Sun
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I fly the Yak 9u a lot,and was interested in the compression issue.As far as I know the Yak 9u didn't enter service till middle or late '44,this aircraft had a cleaned up airframe similar to the earlier Yak 3,but according to my information was of of all metal stessed skin construction,it also had the more powerful Klimov 107 engine first used on the Yak 3.I don't know if the Yak 3 had compression problems,but it would explain the 9u flight model in aces high.
Just to add,I feel the flight model is very good in general in aces high,compared to some other sims and the staff at htc should be praised for their research and attention to detail.:aok
As for the Yak 9T,I have no information.
I hope this helps.:)
p.s. the Dora is a fine aeroplane:aok
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Originally posted by Flyboy
JB73, we need to go to the DA sometime brush off the rust that formed on my dora.
my dora skills are not in the same galaxy as "uber" but i can DA sometime maybe...
lately i have been getting schooled everywhere i go.