Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jumanji on March 19, 2005, 09:00:58 PM
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This has probably been asked already, but are there any plans for Bearcats in AH?
Thanks
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no f8f,but this is the next aircraft to be modeled
this (http://www.big-boys.com/articles/lawnfly.html)
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F8F was deployed to at least one carrier in the pacific before wars end, but none saw any known combat. As a side-note the same can be said for the 3-canon LA-7 but wo have it... go figure! :rolleyes:
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3-cannon La-7s saw combat.
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^ Yeah. All both of em.
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i dont think its really about wheather it saw combat or not as much as wheather it was deployd in ww2 that makes it a ww2 usuable plane.
Since it was deployd during ww2, i think it counts as a ww2 aircraft, youll find them in plenty of ww2 books.
Sepcially sence were talkin about MA usable stuff, F8f would actually be used and stand a chance in the MA environment, give it a perk and add it. At least itll be used.
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I wanna Bearcat.
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So a plane that has never seen WW2 combat at all, and missed out on the entire 6 year war except maybe a few patrol sorties in the last days, should 'count' as a WW2 plane and make its appearance as a competitve MA plane(albeit heavy perks)?
In that case, what's to stop people from arguing that the planes that were designed and almost went into prototype and production phases before the war ended should be also included in the "WW2 plane" category?
Salamanders and Huckebeins anyone?
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I think while one squadron actually received its Bearcats before VJ day, they were still in transit and not actually deployed yet when Japan surrendered.
So if the only requirement for being a WW2 plane is deployment to active duty, the F8F doesn't make it, sadly. I would have liked to see this one, as well as the Tigercat.
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Didnt the F8f have the ability to go from stop to 30k faster than any other ww2 aircraft?
if my jacked up brain is correct, i think it held the record climb rate untill the f-15 eagle beat it.
or something.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
So a plane that has never seen WW2 combat at all, and missed out on the entire 6 year war except maybe a few patrol sorties in the last days, should 'count' as a WW2 plane and make its appearance as a competitve MA plane(albeit heavy perks)?
In that case, what's to stop people from arguing that the planes that were designed and almost went into prototype and production phases before the war ended should be also included in the "WW2 plane" category?
Salamanders and Huckebeins anyone?
why not ? - let's have them all eventually , a perked Bearcat is no bigger impact on the MA than having 262's running around
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But some people fly AH because they like to think that they're experiencing something that at least resembles the intensity and aura of WW2 skies. AH isn't just about any vintage planes - it's about vintage planes that flew and fought in the skies of Europe and the Pacific.
I'm in it because AH is based on the WW2 theme, and its the best in the market. If it loses that merit and turns into a "The Secret Weapons of the blahblah..." game, I'm not sure I'd like to fly AH anymore.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
But some people fly AH because they like to think that they're experiencing something that at least resembles the intensity and aura of WW2 skies. AH isn't just about any vintage planes - it's about vintage planes that flew and fought in the skies of Europe and the Pacific.
I'm in it because AH is based on the WW2 theme, and its the best in the market. If it loses that merit and turns into a "The Secret Weapons of the blahblah..." game, I'm not sure I'd like to fly AH anymore.
Well a Bearcat is hardly SWOTL
The MA resembles the intensity and aura of WW2 skies ? lol - point me towards that MA , must be a different one to the one I fly in ;)
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Originally posted by Redd
Well a Bearcat is hardly SWOTL
The MA resembles the intensity and aura of WW2 skies ? lol - point me towards that MA , must be a different one to the one I fly in ;)
I tend to agree with Redd here... the f8f was built to participate in the war, and it was designed to play a significant role in WWII specifically. Just because the bad guys surrendered before it could've been used widely doesn't mean it should be considered out of scope. I think its a perfect contender for a perked ride, and one that you can lift from a CV. I can see the King Tiger in about the same way. If we had a more diverse GV selection, a king tiger would be the ultimate perk gv ride. But the tiger has such a dominance now that the king tiger would be overkill.
I think anything that made it into field during WWII time span and was going into mass production before the war ended should be considered in the plane set. Just my opinion
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I agree Howitzer.
1,266 made, altho most after ww2, and into the 50's
the damn thing had a 30% better climb rate than the Hellcat!
R2800 engine, fited to the lightest smallest airframe that could be built.
"Dry humps the air" Gimmie Gimmie!
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It would be a sweet ride to have.
Deffinatly would be perked... No doubt about it.
But any plane I fly should be perked.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
It would be a sweet ride to have.
Deffinatly would be perked... No doubt about it.
But any plane I fly should be perked.
Man Morph is great! Especially in his own mind!!! :p
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Didnt the F8f have the ability to go from stop to 30k faster than any other ww2 aircraft?
if my jacked up brain is correct, i think it held the record climb rate untill the f-15 eagle beat it.
or something.
Don't think it could outclimb the 163... ;)
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I love the 4x20mm luvin feature.
Dipstick what the hell??? YOur avatard' got sparkels too!?
Jeeez wtf First edbert i see now yours??
Thats ok, wait! My avatard gonna be BLING BLING in a day or two.
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Hehehe. Yea I did that when I joined the BKs. Thought the avatar needed a little something. :)
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in an MA populated mostly with g10's, la5 and la7's, D9's and pee 51's...
Why not just let the unperked bearcat in?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
in an MA populated mostly with g10's, la5 and la7's, D9's and pee 51's...
Why not just let the unperked bearcat in?
lazs
Well..
La5 is a summer 1943 in service and plane.
La7 is a summer 1944 in service and combat plane.
P51D is a Spring 1944 in service and combat plane.
G10 is a fall 1944 in service and combat plane.
D9 is a fall 1944 inservice and combat plane.
F8F is a September 1945 plane, that was being shipped to the pacific and saw no combat in the war.
Thats why. You comparsion is no good lazs, a full year and lots of actual service and combant seperates your set of MA planes from the F8F...
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IIRC, didn't they have the Bearcat in "Aces of the Pacific"? You could always beat Saburo Sakai in that one! (or was it just the Hellcat.... memory fading with age....)
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IMHO each new WW2 era (that means the genre is circa 37-46) plane that shows up in the arena offers yet another facet to the game. It's like the old saying " it we build it, folks will come". I think whatever plane is added to the hanger will be flown at some point, by everyone so tell meagain why any plane for that period in history couldn't be flown n AH2? It is a game, isn't it? Besides wouldn't it be nice to not have to subsitute one plane for the real thing?
A plane is a plane so why would anyone complain if a new one became available?
Ren
________________
The Damned
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And people say we shouldnt get the Meteor III or Spitfire F.21...
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As long as it can carry a tactical nook for shed killing I'm all for it.
Seriously, I can think of 20-30 planes we need before the F8F or F7F or any "well it almost made combat" plane.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
IMHO each new WW2 era (that means the genre is circa 37-46) plane that shows up in the arena offers yet another facet to the game. It's like the old saying " it we build it, folks will come". I think whatever plane is added to the hanger will be flown at some point, by everyone so tell meagain why any plane for that period in history couldn't be flown n AH2? It is a game, isn't it? Besides wouldn't it be nice to not have to subsitute one plane for the real thing?
A plane is a plane so why would anyone complain if a new one became available?
Ren
________________
The Damned
Tell us again which great battes of WW2 were fought in 1946?
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Grun, Honestly what does it matter to you if its brought to the game or not? I mean if you dont like it you dont have to fly it... Or are people forced to fly what they dont want to now?
It was on WW2 ships otw to WW2 battle when the war ended. I'd say thats grounds for it to be modeled. Or taken into concideration.
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Its kind of funny how the Bearcat rubs some people the wrong way. The Americans were stupid to make sure the bearcat and P80 were ready for combat before they sent it to the front.
I say bring on the Bearcat and Spit 21 and Tigercat and Ta152 and Tempest V and IL10 and Yak 3 to Aces high.
But thats me.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Grun, Honestly what does it matter to you if its brought to the game or not? I mean if you dont like it you dont have to fly it... Or are people forced to fly what they dont want to now?
It was on WW2 ships otw to WW2 battle when the war ended. I'd say thats grounds for it to be modeled. Or taken into concideration.
I love the Bearcat, but it has no place in a WW2 combat game. If you want neat postwar combat planes then please join me in asking for an AH set to the Korean war.
Pongo.
IL10, Yak3, Tempest V, heck even the Spit F.21 all saw combat in WW2, unlike the Bearcat.
Why do you guys even bother with the service and combat plane compartsions? It just makes yuou look desperete. Much better to just be honest and say:
"I really like Bearcat, I think it's too bad the war ended before it could take part but I still want one in the game because."
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Bearcat would be cool, but if it didn't see combat I'd say it's out.
Instead, we need the B-29 :cool:
About 3000 or so were made during the war and it did see combat.
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Think ya missed the point. Its a WW2 ERA plane.
Make sense to ya now?
Ren
:D
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Think ya missed the point. Its a WW2 ERA plane.
Make sense to ya now?
Ren
:D
It just had zero impact on WWII, because the war ended before it could be used.
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Its still the era the plane was built in. It's still a warbird. And.......this is a game. Not World War II. Show me another World War where high performance prop job airplanes that shoot at you were heavily employeed and you might see yet another online sim. Seeing as these are the era planes that shot people it stands to reason we see those planes in AH2.
Back to square one. The plane's are from that era. If someone models it I had a chance try it out because I sure do like flying, I'm here to tell you I'd jump in one. That's like saying if they build a P80 and stick in the arena no one will fly it? Come on! Wel, the tank drivers might not :D
If you don't ever want fly something like that then don't. But don't expect everyone else to feel the same way about a new plane in the arena.
Ren
________________
The Damned
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Unfortunately for you, the AH mission statement by HTC starts;
Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WWII air combat and sets it in an online high intensity environment where hundreds of players can battle it out with and against each other.
Sure, AH isn't simulating WW2 on a 1:1 scale. But there's still some standard on what kind of battles are fought by what kind of planes. Go outside of those standards and the game easily turns into a gigantic "What-if", "SWOTL" game.
He162s, Ta183s, Bf109Zs, Go229s, J7W Shindens, Do335s.. etc etc.. The F8F belongs in the same category as these "what-if" planes.
It sucked when Oleg and co. wasted their resources on making loads of 'what-if' planes in IL2/FB/AEP, which nowadays nobody allows in their servers because it ruins the whole WW2-era aura from the game. I don't want to see something like that in AH.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
He162s, Ta183s, Bf109Zs, Go229s, J7W Shindens, Do335s.. etc etc.. The F8F belongs in the same category as these "what-if" planes.
Let's understand some facts, ok?
On December 31, 1944, the Navy accepted delivery of the the first F8F-1. By August 1 of 1945, the aircraft was in squadron service aboard US fleet carriers, having been carrier qualified. This was not a "what if" fighter. Likewise, the F7F-2N was in squadron service on Okinawa when the war ended. That fighter is not a "what if" either. Along this line, the P-51H was also in service and was actually flying combat patrols with P-51Ds when Japan surrendered. Gee, that's not a "what if" either!
It's one thing to be flying prototypes, it's another altogether when the aircraft is in active squadron service.
You can make a strong argument against including the F8F, F7F and P-51H without resorting to hyperbole. Simply establishing their rarity is probably sufficient.
My regards,
Widewing
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It takes a lot of time and effort for HTC to develop a flight model for a new aircraft. In addition, they are busy developing scenarios and maps and handling a hundred other projects.
If they attempted to give every jack-leg, virtual pilot his heart's desire of exotic aircraft they would blow their brains out in frustration.
I would like to keep the MA as realistic as possible. In the future, after their immediate goals are met, I would like to see HTC develop a special arena for the F8F, F6F-6, and other aircraft that "almost" made it into WW II.
Besides, it's already hard enough to fly early-war birds in an arena that is already choked with dweebs who will only fly late-war aircraft. We don't really need any more.
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It's one thing to be flying prototypes, it's another altogether when the aircraft is in active squadron service.
Says who?
Considering the possibility that if the war lasted maybe about 6 more months that the 'what if/secret weapons' might have been flying around with the 'serviced approved' F8Fs, the F8F is as much a silly choice for a WW2-based aircombat game as putting in the 'secret weapons' in the game.
Especially when desparation drives some airforces to put whatever kind of aircraft available up in the air. The Bf109Z for instance, was just about to enter production before the war ended. The Ta183s or Gothas might have been a longshot, but the cheapo-jet He162 also made it through initial testings.
There's a good reason why seeing combat as a part of organized, official fighter strength matters so much in these kind of things. In that perspective, the F8F is as much a 'what-if' as any other.
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Kweassa, c'mon man... you fly in the MA, it has stoped being WWII, and started being "quake with old planes" a long time ago. I say put it in, perk it, and bathe in the whines! :)
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So like all debates about the Bearcat we end up at the same point.
Its about what people want from the game. Those that want a game where the 109g2 is signifigant want no part of a game with the Bearcat in it. Really thats all it is about.
The guys that flew the bearcat onto carriers in 1945 are suddenly not ww2 pilots because their country was 4 time zones removed from the action. The guys that flew 400 patrols over the canal zone where not ww2 pilots, the guys that flew Mad boom Calalina sortis for 6 months at 100 ft above the staits of gibralter were not combat pilots because a sub never showed up.
Then their are guys that are interested in the techology and challenges of ww2 aircraft. They feel that the Ta152, Tempest, La7,Bearcat, Me262 and B29 are the pinicle of that era and they want to learn about them.
They love the P40E and if the game was based in 1947 or 1952 they would like the P40E to be in the game cause they would like to experiance it even against yak 9s and Mig 15s.
I would willingly make the Bearcat unavailable to those that fear it if that would get thier blessing to allow pyro to proceed with including this most uber of american low level iron in the game.
BTW, Dean wimped out on the F7F and F8F in A100K.
He ran out of pages.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Says who?
Says me, and anyone else willing to think about it.
This is common sense. F7Fs, F8Fs and P-51Hs were in COMBAT UNITS DEPLOYED IN COMBAT ZONES at the time of the Japanese surrender. These were fully operational aircraft in fully operational units. These were not planes rushed into testing out of desperation, they were fully sorted, combat ready aircraft that had been ordered almost two years before the war ended. The XF7F-1 was flying in December of 1943 and the first deliveries began 11 months before the war ended. In August of 1944, the XF8F-1 was flying, with deliveries beginning in December. First deliveries of the P-51H were in February of 1945, first production flight was February 3, 1945. There were 370 P-51Hs in service by VJ day.
Stop being obtuse. You seem to have the mindset of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up."
These aircraft made no impression on the war's outcome, and on that basis I would say they do not belong in the plane set. That's a valid argument. Saying they were "what if" aircraft on par with the pie-in-the-sky Ta 183 is rediculous in my opinion.
My regards,
Widewing
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Way too many planes not modeled that did participate in the conflict to do before considering those who coulda shoulda woulda in my opinion.
P39s, lighweight P40Ns, maybe the Merlin P40Fs and Ls that saw action with those MTO USAAF P40 groups. What about B25s and A26s. Allison engined Mustangs for the MTO, RAF in the ETO and CBI fans.
All kinds of Spit variants. You want a 4 cannon Spit, then get the Spit 21. It got into action before the war was over. I'm kinda partial to the Spit XII for the low alt work. They certainly saw combat. Might want to get the Meteor in the game as the Allied jet and see how it matches up to the 262.
Might as well get the Beaufighter, Whirlwind, Me210/410, He219 etc in. Lots of German bombers, Italian stuff, Russian stuff, Japanese stuff that saw combat that would add to the fun, before those that didn't quite make it.
I'm sure folks can name a lot more.
Dan
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Originally posted by Widewing
Says me, and anyone else willing to think about it.
This is common sense. F7Fs, F8Fs and P-51Hs were in COMBAT UNITS DEPLOYED IN COMBAT ZONES at the time of the Japanese surrender. These were fully operational aircraft in fully operational units. These were not planes rushed into testing out of desperation, they were fully sorted, combat ready aircraft that had been ordered almost two years before the war ended. The XF7F-1 was flying in December of 1943 and the first deliveries began 11 months before the war ended. In August of 1944, the XF8F-1 was flying, with deliveries beginning in December. First deliveries of the P-51H were in February of 1945, first production flight was February 3, 1945. There were 370 P-51Hs in service by VJ day.
Stop being obtuse. You seem to have the mindset of "don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up."
These aircraft made no impression on the war's outcome, and on that basis I would say they do not belong in the plane set. That's a valid argument. Saying they were "what if" aircraft on par with the pie-in-the-sky Ta 183 is rediculous in my opinion.
My regards,
Widewing
Yep.
Both sides make some inapropriate arguments comparing these planes to either late war high perfomance planes that saw combat or to what if's or other paper projects, both comparsions are inapropriate. These planes were "in-betweens" that were around in some numbers but failed to take part in the war because of timing and so it's no surprise that they often come up in these threads and with the same colntroversy.
Yet to me, it's quite simple, no combat, no effect on the war in any way whatsover, not in AH. Maybe after we get the 500 or so missing ww2 combat planes they might be considered, but anything before that would be awaste of resorces.
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Seriouly.
While I do think the F8F *could* be added to AH I dont think it *should* be anytime soon.
Why?
Because we seriously need other aircrafts.
We do have the main bulk of the later US and LW fighters (and US bombers) but we lack a crapload of the rest. For example there are huuuuge gaps in the Japanese, Russian and Italian (lower prio then the previous 2) arsenals.
I do understand that we have alot of americans playing this game and hence alot of "american plane fans" but that doesnt change the fact that we really need Japanese and Russian planes badly.
When it comes to the american planes Id say what is most needed are the mid war planes like P40N and P39 (partially because that one is "russian"). The P40N was one of the most produced P40s which was one of the most if not the most produced US fither and the most important US fighter to any midwar ToD tour.
Further what we need is Jap and Rus bombers as well as "junker goons".
So imho adding a F8F to AH at this stage is like added a jaccuzi to a house without plumbing. Nice but useless.
Tex
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Psssst.
Little news flash guys.
We're never going to get this thing. Even I know that.
So why waste your breath stomping your feet and screaming, keep it out?
Its nice to dream, but thats all it is. A pipe dream at best.
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I hope so !
The addition of the Bearcat would be fun !!!
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So how come we don't have V1 and V2 rockets available? :D
They could be bought with bomber or vehicle perks, but the perks would always be gone since they never make a safe landing.
Just think: a squad or mission could start an attack by launching V1s or V2s toward a field or town and Tempests could up to tip them over... :)
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*imagines people knocking down FHs with Vx rockets*
*screams and cries*
*hides under table*
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grun... I said nothing about what year they came out or how many of em fired guns or were fired at...
That part is kinda moot in the MA... I don't think any LA7 ever fought p51's or tempests or typhoons. I have to face gazillions of high performance planes that never fought my fm2 in the war.
The bearcat was not a prottype and it had been in service in large numbers 6 months berfore the end of the war. It is indeed a vintage WWII fighter plane by anyones standards.
It is no super plane like even the me 262 I have no problem with the meteor either.
lazs
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Way too many planes not modeled that did participate in the conflict to do before considering those who coulda shoulda woulda in my opinion.
P39s, lighweight P40Ns, maybe the Merlin P40Fs and Ls that saw action with those MTO USAAF P40 groups. What about B25s and A26s. Allison engined Mustangs for the MTO, RAF in the ETO and CBI fans.
All kinds of Spit variants. You want a 4 cannon Spit, then get the Spit 21. It got into action before the war was over. I'm kinda partial to the Spit XII for the low alt work. They certainly saw combat. Might want to get the Meteor in the game as the Allied jet and see how it matches up to the 262.
Might as well get the Beaufighter, Whirlwind, Me210/410, He219 etc in. Lots of German bombers, Italian stuff, Russian stuff, Japanese stuff that saw combat that would add to the fun, before those that didn't quite make it.
Ditto.
As it was already mentioned, HTC has limited art-resourses (Natedog and Superfly). These guys can only do so many planes in certain time frame. So far we've gotten two totally new aircraft 3D-models since AH went 2.0. That was approx. 9 months ago. Though Pyro said that the plane development will get faster after the new system is totally mastered. It's also good to remember that Nate and Super also have loads of work which doesn't involve new aircraft.
There are still tens of significant WWII combat aircraft that actually fought in the war to model.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Way too many planes not modeled that did participate in the conflict to do before considering those who coulda shoulda woulda in my opinion.
P39s, lighweight P40Ns, maybe the Merlin P40Fs and Ls that saw action with those MTO USAAF P40 groups. What about B25s and A26s. Allison engined Mustangs for the MTO, RAF in the ETO and CBI fans.
All kinds of Spit variants. You want a 4 cannon Spit, then get the Spit 21. It got into action before the war was over. I'm kinda partial to the Spit XII for the low alt work. They certainly saw combat. Might want to get the Meteor in the game as the Allied jet and see how it matches up to the 262.
Might as well get the Beaufighter, Whirlwind, Me210/410, He219 etc in. Lots of German bombers, Italian stuff, Russian stuff, Japanese stuff that saw combat that would add to the fun, before those that didn't quite make it.
I'm sure folks can name a lot more.
Dan
Totally agree with your list.
But would like to add a thing... goons... we need goons for each nation.. before we need a plane that didnt fight..
And ohh... mossies... we need later mossie versions..
Tex
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I would still like to see planes like the f8f added to the MA over the brewster and p39. The P40N wouldn't be a bad addition, simply because our B model is pretty worthless in the MA, and the E isn't all that much better. I'd rather fly a jug, and that is sad to me because the p40 was the stereotypical WWII era plane when I was growing up. The reason I would vote no to the brewster and the p39 is that they are so underclassed with our current planeset, I just don't think they would get much use.
Give me something cool to waste more perks on!! =) I don't like the 262 nor the 152, and I'm not that big on the spit 14 because I'd just rather fly a 9 and turn if I have problems. F4U-4 and Tempest are the only options in my mind... and unless I'm upping off of a CV, I'll take the 4 hispano package.
I guess for me, its not about historical usage as much as enhanced gameplay. If its going to add a new aspect to the game, why not put it in if it is reasonable? Just my thoughts.
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How far did the carrier make it? Surely the F8F flew some patrol sorties. CAP duty during war time. It's not the F8F's fault that the enemy didn't show up?
Originally posted by NUKE
Bearcat would be cool, but if it didn't see combat I'd say it's out.
Instead, we need the B-29 :cool:
About 3000 or so were made during the war and it did see combat.
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Originally posted by lazs2
grun... I said nothing about what year they came out or how many of em fired guns or were fired at...
That part is kinda moot in the MA... I don't think any LA7 ever fought p51's or tempests or typhoons. I have to face gazillions of high performance planes that never fought my fm2 in the war.
The bearcat was not a prottype and it had been in service in large numbers 6 months berfore the end of the war. It is indeed a vintage WWII fighter plane by anyones standards.
It is no super plane like even the me 262 I have no problem with the meteor either.
lazs
Lazs you basically said why not have the F8F wen we allready have these late war high performers like La7 or Dora etc.
Well the reason I gave you was that the F8F came out to "service" nearly a full year later than the latest one on your list and thus missed out combat in WW2.
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Just an aside.
Kweassa, You might like to check out what F/O G. Walkington got up to on April 19th 1945 . Similarly what Rudolf Schmitt got up to on May 4th 1945. I know it was rare but it was certainly used in anger and I don't think it belongs in the same category as the Gotha or Do335 et al.
carry on :D
Gatso
(PS He162 for those too lazy to look stuff up)
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grun... my point remains that the only planes worth doing in the MA are late war fast planes.... you could model a dozen duds like the P40 and they would be a huge waste of time... model on f8 and you would see at least 10% of the guys flying it. still no wonder plane and most would never give up cannons to fly 4 .50's now would they?
it was a WWII plane.... It was on carriers and "in the war"... guys were training and flying em for 6 months before the war ended... if they would have been german planes they woulda "seen combat" before they even rolled out of the hanger.
people would use em... They would not be the fastest or meanest plane around but would offer the most variety and usefulness of any plane I can imagine in the current MA. A place where a -4 corsair is perked but D9's and la7's are free.
So... model a bunch of useless planes that 6 guys in the MA use 1 every six weeks or so or.... the f8 that will be used to counter the allready overwhelmingly boring current overused bunch.
If you are gonna put late war planes in with early war ones then it is obvious that only really good planes will be worth doing.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
grun... my point remains that the only planes worth doing in the MA are late war fast planes.... you could model a dozen duds like the P40 and they would be a huge waste of time... model on f8 and you would see at least 10% of the guys flying it. still no wonder plane and most would never give up cannons to fly 4 .50's now would they?
it was a WWII plane.... It was on carriers and "in the war"... guys were training and flying em for 6 months before the war ended... if they would have been german planes they woulda "seen combat" before they even rolled out of the hanger.
people would use em... They would not be the fastest or meanest plane around but would offer the most variety and usefulness of any plane I can imagine in the current MA. A place where a -4 corsair is perked but D9's and la7's are free.
So... model a bunch of useless planes that 6 guys in the MA use 1 every six weeks or so or.... the f8 that will be used to counter the allready overwhelmingly boring current overused bunch.
If you are gonna put late war planes in with early war ones then it is obvious that only really good planes will be worth doing.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Based on what your saying, then anything pre-44 is a waste of time?
Or does it mean at a certain point, AH should split arenas with a pre-44 MA and a 44-46 MA.
Does scenario use play into the equation at all? Or do we just move on to all the end of the war coulda shoulda wouldas that never fired a shot in anger?
Not trying to pick a fight, but asking as one who is clearly more based on a historical slant then just what will go the fastest, highest etc in the game.
I understand what you are saying, but with that thinking, then we might as well have an MA with one aircraft type for everyone so that we'd find out who the real king of the hill is.
Dan/CorkyJr
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P-80 was in Italy in 1945. Albeit just two of them.
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The F8F would be perked much higher than the Tempest, it would be anther pefked plane flown just as conservatively as any other perked plane - even moreso because it couldnt hide behind a non perk tag.
I dont see how it would do the things you hope it would..
It took no part in WW2 combat whatsover.
The F4U4 is perked because its a late war plane from spring 1945 that saw very little combat in very small numbers. Tempest, LA7, Dora, all saw much more use in the past year. The Ta152 is of the same timeframe as F4U4, saw little use, has unremakable AH loalt performance and itsperked too.
There is no anti US navy conspiracy lzs. ;)
.
Plus what do you care about highperformance perked fast uber planes like F8F, i thought you were a dedicated hard core low alt furballer in ww2 us navy planes like f6f, fm2 and f4u? Why do you want the F8F with all its speed, acceleration, climb and outstaning capabilities?
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Howitzer
All plane additions (added versions of existing models and new rides) are most likely gonna have ToD as primary focus and MA as secondary.
MA is going to have the planeset ToD requires not the other way around.
F8F is totally useless for ToD.
P-39 is going to be very needed for ToD tours on east front and even mid war pacific.
So the chance of seeing the P-39 is much much much greater then the F8F.
Tex.
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The way I see it is that if a an 'almost' WWII area plane is added with superior performance, most of the MA will fly it. Most people don't have the skill or patience to achieve even moderate succes in an early war plane. People want to have fun and most people have more fun when they can win.
When was the first time the F-86 Sabre flew? 1947? Why not add that too? Before you know it people will be wanting F-22's with ASRAAMs. Ok, that's taking it too far but you get the point.
I like to fly in an environment where historical opponents are pitched against each other but alas, when I can find time to play, the CT counter says mostly '1'. So I go to the MA and up something I can get a few kills in and survive every now and then. So indeed adding more early war planes is just catering to some (vocal) enthousiasts, not to the majority which just plays 'Quake with old planes'. Maybe if HTC offered relaxed realism and 3 times standard ammo even more people would play... sadly.
To go to the other extreme, The Finns used, in WWII, completely obsolete Bristol Bulldog bi-plane fighters. They even got kills with them. For that reason alone it is more appropriate for the plane set than the F8F, how much I like that plane or not.
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wow bearcat looks wwwhicked! that rudder and bubble cannopy have quite the sexy look.
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guppy and grun... we are arguing different points... I fly slow planes in furballs. It wouldn't affect me that much except on the rare occassion that I grab a faster plane when there is absolutely no furball action in the MA.
How can anyone argue from a historical point and mention the MA in the same breath? How can anyone think that a bearcat with it's 4 .50's will need to be perked in an arena of typhoons and d9 and 51d and la5 and 7's and spits?
I would probly fly the bearcat more than any of the other planes mentioned but most would not... I would say that it would tempt very few out of their la7's or d9's or g10's
and... the -4 is perked because... because it didn't see much use in WWII? performance is no reason? The 262 and tempest seen lots of use and they are perked too.
The bearcat is a WWII aircraft produced and flown in large numbers during WWII. It's not a super plane by the standards of the current top 5 or so in the MA right now.
lazs
lazs
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
Howitzer
All plane additions (added versions of existing models and new rides) are most likely gonna have ToD as primary focus and MA as secondary.
MA is going to have the planeset ToD requires not the other way around.
F8F is totally useless for ToD.
P-39 is going to be very needed for ToD tours on east front and even mid war pacific.
So the chance of seeing the P-39 is much much much greater then the F8F.
Tex.
Okeee... thats cool. Whatever they want to add is fine with me, I'll fly anything a few times. I guess what I was trying to say (and everything I say is from an MA standpoint because I don't know much about this TOD thing) is that you'll see a p39 in the skies about as often as you see a 202 in my opinion. Not saying it doesn't have its place, just would like to see a plane of an ENY of 20 or lower first... I fly plenty of ENY 35+ planes, and it would take a serious advantage from the p39 to get me out of my jugs, a5, or 109s, and it just doesn't seem like it carries that advantage with it.
Thanks for the viewpoint though, I hadn't really thought of it that way.
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What is defined as large numbers?
If we argue large numbers then the P40N should definatly be in game. Even before we start to think about F8F.
I mean we all want different rides to be added, because there are so many gaps in the arsenal. We can all argue tons of arguments why "our ride" should be added but in the same time we will always argue why another ride should be added.
What is needed is a strategy on how to add rides.
Personally I think there is one.
Rework of current models and addition in variants of these plus adding planes that are needed for ToD.
After all atm ToD is the main goal of HTC, not more rides for MA.
If Im wrong and the goal is to provide a borader spectrum of rides for the MA then a strategy for that needs to be in place.
If so Id guess it would be.
Rework current models and addtional versons of these plus late war rides. Simply because there isnt much room for early to mid war rides in the MA.
Given that last fact if the case is to add planes for the MA then we really need a strategy for how to deal with the mid to early war planes in the MA.
Personally, IF this is the case, Id like to see 2 MAs an pre 44 and a 44 and later.
But I dont think the last scenario is the case.. I do think the focus is so heavily on ToD that the plane strategy follows that focus.
Tex
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Damnit, we aren't talking about the standard La7 here. We are talking about the 3 gun package on the La7.
3-cannon La-7s saw combat.
^ Yeah. All both of em.
You'd be hardpressed to find someone in the MA who ISN'T IN A 3 GUN LA7.
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Howi, something you are overlooking is the P-39 was designed to work at low alt, and at the typical MA altitude of 10k and under it will be quite capable IMO. It will also be a good buff and GV killer, just as the Yak9T is now with the 37mm cannon. I hope that if we ever do get it we also get the P400 export version that had the 20mm in place of the 37mm.
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Originally posted by Grits
Howi, something you are overlooking is the P-39 was designed to work at low alt, and at the typical MA altitude of 10k and under it will be quite capable IMO. It will also be a good buff and GV killer, just as the Yak9T is now with the 37mm cannon. I hope that if we ever do get it we also get the P400 export version that had the 20mm in place of the 37mm.
Well, I don't think I'll be disapointed with whatever new planes come in, hopefully it is a great low alt performer. I just don't see many Yak9Ts running around these days so it makes me leary. Sounds like the 20mm version would be sufficient as well. I wouldn't, however object to the p63 =)
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Show me another World War where high performance prop job airplanes that shoot at you were heavily employeed and you might see yet another online sim.
WWI
Those aeroplanes were high performance at the time. :D
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Didnt the F8f have the ability to go from stop to 30k faster than any other ww2 aircraft?
if my jacked up brain is correct, i think it held the record climb rate untill the f-15 eagle beat it.
or something.
Mot sure if the F8F held the record, but the F15 didn't beat the record from any US plane. The Russian MiG (can't recall number, Foxbat was the codename I believe) held the record prior to the F15
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Originally posted by Midnight
Mot sure if the F8F held the record, but the F15 didn't beat the record from any US plane. The Russian MiG (can't recall number, Foxbat was the codename I believe) held the record prior to the F15
Mig29? I thought that plane had a thrust/weight ratio of close to or exceeding 1.0
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Originally posted by Howitzer
Mig29? I thought that plane had a thrust/weight ratio of close to or exceeding 1.0
The F8F Bearcat set the record in June, 1945 for climbing from a dead standstill to 10,000ft in 91 SECONDS... This was not beaten until an F-16 (NOT F-15) beat it in the very early 70s.
Those are the facts...
I would love to see the bearcat in the game along with about 2 dozen other planes... I wont hijack the thread by talking about other planes that may/may not be more important...
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Originally posted by lazs2
guppy and grun... we are arguing different points... I fly slow planes in furballs. It wouldn't affect me that much except on the rare occassion that I grab a faster plane when there is absolutely no furball action in the MA.
How can anyone argue from a historical point and mention the MA in the same breath? How can anyone think that a bearcat with it's 4 .50's will need to be perked in an arena of typhoons and d9 and 51d and la5 and 7's and spits?
I would probly fly the bearcat more than any of the other planes mentioned but most would not... I would say that it would tempt very few out of their la7's or d9's or g10's
and... the -4 is perked because... because it didn't see much use in WWII? performance is no reason? The 262 and tempest seen lots of use and they are perked too.
The bearcat is a WWII aircraft produced and flown in large numbers during WWII. It's not a super plane by the standards of the current top 5 or so in the MA right now.
lazs
lazs
Lazs are you really asking for a plane thats as fast as an LA7 and faster at alt, that climbs and accells as good or better than the Spit14, that rolls as well as Fw190, nearly turns with a Zero and is tough like a grumman and that saw no combat usin ww2 to be unperked? And you think nobody would fly that kind of performance just because of 4 50cals? You cant be serious..
I think you basically deluding yourself, and its really a surprise since I've always seen you as one of the straight shooters here on the board over the years... What gives man?
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Just because he doesn't take your view on all things does't mean he isn't a "straight shooter" =) Personally, I think its performance begs a perk value, but its guns are horrible at 4 50cals. Other planes with those guns have ENY values 35 and over. One being the P51B, which isn't a bad plane minus the fact it lacks a bubble canopy. The 4 50s will really hurt this plane, and that is why I can see where lazs is coming from. Put 4 hispanos on it, and I think you have a case for an extreme perk value.
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Originally posted by Howitzer
Just because he doesn't take your view on all things does't mean he isn't a "straight shooter" =) Personally, I think its performance begs a perk value, but its guns are horrible at 4 50cals. Other planes with those guns have ENY values 35 and over. One being the P51B, which isn't a bad plane minus the fact it lacks a bubble canopy. The 4 50s will really hurt this plane, and that is why I can see where lazs is coming from. Put 4 hispanos on it, and I think you have a case for an extreme perk value.
Well if the 51B was:
Faster than Tempest
Climbed and acceled as good or better than Spit 14
Rolled like Fw190
Was tough like a grumman
Turned almost like late model zero slow and better above 150mph
Then you might have a point, but it isnt, and you dont have point.
Lazs is a great guy, Ive known him here for years and I've even met him in real life. He's always been a to the point noBS guy, which is why this apparent self delusion about the F8F capabilities is really such a surprise to me.
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Someone told me the first plane to really beat that record was an Orion.
The bearcat has 4 50s but they are M3s I think. 1200 rpm so 4 of them is identical to 6 m2s.
The Bearcat would be an expensive perk. Close to Tempest expensive.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Someone told me the first plane to really beat that record was an Orion.
The bearcat has 4 50s but they are M3s I think. 1200 rpm so 4 of them is identical to 6 m2s.
The Bearcat would be an expensive perk. Close to Tempest expensive.
I think it's pretty obvious that the Tempest would be generally out-classed by the F8F-1. Depending upon which test data you prefer (the Navy's or Grumman's), the F8F-1 was able to make 383 mph to 393 mph on the deck. Climb at full load was between 4,570 and 5,150 fpm. Max speed was between 421 and 442 mph at 19,000 feet. This is a certified monster. Even with four .50 cal MGs, perk value would be at least as high as the Tempest.
Cannon armed F8Fs (F8F-1B) didn't begin delivery to the Navy until 2/27/46, making them clearly post-war fighters.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Midnight
Mot sure if the F8F held the record, but the F15 didn't beat the record from any US plane. The Russian MiG (can't recall number, Foxbat was the codename I believe) held the record prior to the F15
MiG 25 = Foxbat
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Originally posted by Widewing
I think it's pretty obvious that the Tempest would be generally out-classed by the F8F-1. Depending upon which test data you prefer (the Navy's or Grumman's), the F8F-1 was able to make 383 mph to 393 mph on the deck. Climb at full load was between 4,570 and 5,150 fpm. Max speed was between 421 and 442 mph at 19,000 feet. This is a certified monster. Even with four .50 cal MGs, perk value would be at least as high as the Tempest.
Cannon armed F8Fs (F8F-1B) didn't begin delivery to the Navy until 2/27/46, making them clearly post-war fighters.
My regards,
Widewing
And how does the Tempest compare to that?
Deck speed in that range. Climb less. Weapons way more effective. Alt speed in that range.
I dont see how it outclasses the Tempest.
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Ok.. so what is the climb rate in FPM of the G10 and tempest and typhoon and la7? Yak and d9 and Ki?
It is a very good plane but I simply don't see no cannon planes in the MA much. I don't hink the M3's came out till allmost Korea but I could be wrong. a 4 50's plane just won't do it for the B&Z crowd. They won't use it.
It is fast and it climbs as good as any of the other planes in the arena tho. It does not turn like a Zero. I have heard that it didn't turn much better than a 51.. it would probly be more comparable to the turn rate of the corsair or F6.
I could be wrong but I think it would be used by furballers more than the sky accountants. It might even be the best plane in the game but... something allways is.
The P40n would be a waste of time so far as the MA is concerned. It really wasn't much of a performer.
lazs
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Sky Accountants...that's funny:lol
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well if the 51B was:
Faster than Tempest
Climbed and acceled as good or better than Spit 14
Rolled like Fw190
Was tough like a grumman
Turned almost like late model zero slow and better above 150mph
Then you might have a point, but it isnt, and you dont have point.
Lazs is a great guy, Ive known him here for years and I've even met him in real life. He's always been a to the point noBS guy, which is why this apparent self delusion about the F8F capabilities is really such a surprise to me.
I was going to respond, but lazs has reaffirmed the point I was trying to make, that you didn't understand. 4 50s aren't good for BnZ type planes as it will probably take more than one pass to kill someone. The gunnery will take away from it being a skilless dweeb plane so the masses will stay away from it. I would use it to run down la7s, the same role I use my tempest for now. But I'll take those 4 hispanos anyday. I'm sorry you are having such a tough time grasping this.
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me too... I would use4 it to get to the furballs quicker and to chase down the cowardly sky accountants.
At this point I grab a tempest once in a while and simply slaughter em because they only perfected their running skills.
I don't think that the bearcat would be near as good a performance plane as the 262 yet it is allowed.
The point is... if we are going to make it a late war only arena then let's not bother with the useless early planes not modled yet... let's get a useful one in.
lazs
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Originally posted by Midnight
Mot sure if the F8F held the record, but the F15 didn't beat the record from any US plane. The Russian MiG (can't recall number, Foxbat was the codename I believe) held the record prior to the F15
The Bearcat holds the piston-powered world record for it's time to climb. That record is 91 seconds from brake release at sea level to 10,000 feet. It is said to have held this record for almost three decades until finally beaten by the F-16 Fighting Falcon.
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You are comparing the Bearcat to aircraft that were in service a year before it. If you add the bearcat you could say that we should be adding the p.80 shooting star too? that was in service in italy before the bearcat?
Although they would be fun, I believe neither deserves a place in this game - they were simply too late.
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Originally posted by Furball
You are comparing the Bearcat to aircraft that were in service a year before it. If you add the bearcat you could say that we should be adding the p.80 shooting star too? that was in service in italy before the bearcat?
Although they would be fun, I believe neither deserves a place in this game - they were simply too late.
What an unusual opinion. WW2 aircraft, deployed to engage in ww2 flown by ww2 pilots on ww2 sortis are too late. For what? They where totaly not to late. I understand people debating prototypes being included in the game. But once the best operational aircraft that Germany could make were included in the game the best aircraft that her enemies could make have to be included in the game too. Especially when thier flight characteristics are perfectly suited to the MA.
A carrier plane that can take the La7s game away from it would be excellent for the MA.
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A carrier plane that can take the La7s game away from it would be excellent for the MA.
But then what do we do when everyone starts *****in' about the F8F? If you don't like the La7's game then your not gonna like the F8F's game either...
respectfully
Magoo
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Ya I will join the crowds of people that complain about the tempest I guess. Cause like I said it will be a near Tempest perk beasty.
You have heard of the perk system?
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The P40n would be a waste of time so far as the MA is concerned. It really wasn't much of a performer.
You're not cool anymore.
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if the tempest and 262 and 163 are allowed in the game then how can the p80 or bearcat or even meteor ruin gameplay?
lazs
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There is a weird resistance to the best US Iron..even amongst many americans. I really dont get it.
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I'm not resistant to the plane from a gameplay standpoint, it wont make much difference because it will be perked and wont be any worse than the others. The problem is, it is redundant in the respect that it doesnt fill a "hole" in the existing set, (IE F4U-4, Temp, Spit 14).
I dont want HT wasting their already stretched resources for yet another uber-perk plane when there are 20-30 other more needed planes to fill gaps in the planeset now.
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20-30 from what stand point?
For them to spend time on the Val is not a waste but to spend time on the Tempest was? I think the use of the two in the MA shows otherwise. The perk system gives players something to build towards and why not include some great American perk planes?
The Hog C? Thats it?
If only for historical reasons we must unleash the secret weapons of the pentagon!
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There is also a wierd resentment of the La7 ..
But like you said Pongo, it'll be sufficiently perked if added, however unlikely, so it couldn't replace the La7 as the arena's most hated plane. My earlier point was that there will always be a plane that dominates in dweebdom, even if the La7 was perked. Did I read you wrong on your hate for the La7?
Hey, I'll fly the bird if HTC adds it to the game, but I'll bet dollars to dougnuts that we ain't gonna see no parts of no F8F in Aces High. Then again, I would have said the same thing about the Me163 - but of course the Me163 did see action.
Magoo
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Originally posted by Pongo
20-30 from what stand point?
A6M3
D4Y
Ki44
Ki45
G4M
Ki100
J2M
I-16
Yak1
Yak7
Yak9M/D
Tu-2
Pe2
Mig 3
Lagg 3
SM.79
P-39D/P-400
B-25C/J
Thats just off the top of my head, there are many more. Any one of those planes is needed more than the F8F. Like I said, I dont have any objection to the F8F from a gameplay standpoint, just that should be a low priority.
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You always leave off the He-111... wouldn't you rather have a buff you can catch AND shoot down in the CT durring BoB?
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Doh! I do always forget it dont I?
Yes, add the He111 to that list too, and probably a 109 in between the G-10 and G-6, I think its the G-14?
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I dunno Grits, I think your pushing it with another 109...:D
Magoo
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A6M3 -wrong
D4Y - wrong
Ki44 - right
Ki45 - wrong
G4M - wrong
Ki100 - wrong
J2M - right
I-16 - right
Yak1 - wrong
Yak7 - wrong
Yak9M/D -wrong
Tu-2 - right
Pe2 - wrong
Mig 3 -wrong
Lagg 3 - wrong
SM.79 -wrong
P-39D/P-400 -right
B-25C/J -right
Sure it would be cool to have AH be a catalog of ww2 combat aircraft and be able to flesh out any scenario with realistic planes.
Thats not what it is though. Its a game about WW2 aircraft. People get to pick what planes they will fly and the perk system lets them earn access to rare and very capable planes.
To say some historically relevent and active aircraft is more important than one that will be very active and sought after in the GAME is just silly. If HT sets out to build every 1942 aircraft that served with the Brits, Italians, Japanese, Russians and Swedes we will never see another worthwhile plane added to the MA again. Ya there are lots of posters here who are anti MA..but guess what, AH is about the MA, thats how HT gets payed.
I think there is not a great chance to get the F8F into AH, But I think its silly that thats the case, as it is with the P47N, Pony H and B29, planes that would see routine use in the MA.
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I'm not anti-MA, I just dont think that the MA needs any new planes. What will the F8F add that other perk planes dont give already? How many perk planes are "very active" other than the C hog (I'm not counting the 163 HQ defence plane)? What will the P-47N, P-51H, add other than more seldom used perk rides (though like the F8F, I'd like to see them eventually too)?
I think you and I basically agree, just not on the planes, just not the order they should be added to the game.
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Originally posted by Magoo
I dunno Grits, I think your pushing it with another 109...:D
Magoo
I did not know this, but some that know more about the 109 series pointed out that we have quite a large gap time and performance wise between the G-6 ('43) and the G-10 (which is really a K-4 I think they said which was late '44-early '45) and that we need a plane in between them. I am not positive, but I think it was the G-14.
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well... I have allmost 16,000 perk points and not one of the current perk rides tempts me except for the occasional "slaughter the sky accountants" run in a Tempest.
F8 would be a fun perk ride... a fun perk ride? what a new concept..
as for the list of 20 planes that we "need".... sheesh... they would be about the worst waste of time I can think of... you would see more P40 b's in the arena than them hanger queens.
lazs
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There is more to AH than just the MA.
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maybe... but not really... the vast majority live in the MA all the time.
lazs
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It is kind of funny to make a list of 6000 developement hours worth of hanger queens and say they are more important then 200 hours worth of bearcat building that would really be an incentive to the average paying customer.
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You guys hear of ToD? Which do you think ToD needs more, my list of "hangar queens" or the F8F? I have said before I dont have any objection to the F8F other than it should not be near the top of the "to do" list.
From my personal standpoint, I dont care what perk planes we get, I wont fly them anyway. I fly the C Hog occasionally, and I've flown the 163 and 262 once or twice, the Temp once, and the F4U-4 for the first time last night. Your more likely to find me in the Hurri IID, P47D-11, 190A-5 (ocasionally the D-9) F4U-1, Spit V and the IL-2 when the Fun Nazi's take down the FH's. I'd like to see more early/mid war planes that will fill out holes in the planeset for the SEA, CT and ToD. In reality the MA only REALLY needs the top 4-5 planes it already has now as that is what 90% fly.
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Imagine that - a fighter, which never fought at all for it's entire life.. and people argue that this is a "WW2 plane".
Since, effectively, the aura of historicity which gave AH its character, seems to have been abandoned by some people, I see no reason why this game should use WW2 planes in the first place.
Let's move it to planet Zork, with Quakians and Dorkians and Skorwhors fighting each other, in their turbo-laser armed space fighters.
After all, the fun in the MA is the only thing which matters, right? Who cares if everything just changed into complete fantasy? HTC doesn't even need to cope with the 'whiners' and stuff, since this is entirely fantasy.
Heck, they can add infinite variety of wild and wacky planes which will always interest the MA fans more and more, instead of filling out the gaps and holes of historical planesets and trying to finish the balanced 'WW2 plane set' in the first place. All the midwars and earlywayrs are hangar queens anyway/
...
Why do we even bother asking HT to add our favorite planes, which saw significant use, with real service records, and had pilots fighting in them for their lives, and participated in the major battles of the World War...
... when we can always ask for a fantasy/what-if plane that suits MA needs, which never even saw one enemy plane during its entire service time in WW2(which isn't saying much, for that matter), and still call it a 'WW2 fighter plane' ?
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If we are going to ask for "it almost made it to combat" planes I want the AD-1 Skyraider. First flown on March 18, 1945 and deliveries started in June 1945.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Douglas AD-1 Skyraider
Type: carrier-based attack aircraft
Crew: 1
Armament: two 20mm cannon
up to 6000 lbs. of mixed weapons externally
Specifications:
Length: 38' 2" (11.63 m)
Height: 15' 5" (4.70 m)
Wingspan: 50' 0" (15.24 m)
Wing area: 400 sq. ft (37.16 sq. m)
Empty Weight: 10,264 lb (4656 kg)
Max Weight: 18,030 lb (8178 kg) max at takeoff
Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 1
Powerplant: Wright R-3350-24 Cyclone 18 radial
Horsepower: 2400 hp
Performance:
Range: 1900 miles (3058 km)
Cruise Speed: 204 mph ( 328 km/h)
Max Speed: 366 mph ( 589 km/h) at 13,500 ft
Ceiling: 33,000 ft (10,060 m)
------------------------------------------------------------
The Shed Killers need a perk ride too dont they? It has just as much claim as the F8F does for "its almost a WW2 plane".
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... when we can always ask for a fantasy/what-if plane that suits MA needs,
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/839_1111784391_cs_plane_003_a.jpg)
If we are going to ask for "it almost made it to combat" planes I want the AD-1 Skyraider. First flown on March 18, 1945 and deliveries started in June 1945.
How about the A-1E, it at least saw a lot combat....in Vietnam.
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I've heard that the AD1 can stay on scene for 8 hours.
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in their turbo-laser armed space fighters.
we do have the niki:D
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Originally posted by Lye-El
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/839_1111784391_cs_plane_003_a.jpg)
How about the A-1E, it at least saw a lot combat....in Vietnam.
The AD-1 and A-1E are the same plane, they changed the designation when they went away from putting the manufacturer in the ID (D=Douglas, F=Grumman etc).
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Imagine that, some desperate custodian of aircraft purity making a pathetic strawman argument against the inclusion of the Bearcat.
IN service in squadron strength on a war cruise on a USN aircraft carrier before the end of the war. Its pilots are ww2 veterans even if they never flew another plane during the war. It is a ww2 aircraft.
Too bad you hate the idea. Apperently others like it and you dont get the luxury of rewriting history to remove this one from the record. Its a ww2 aircraft.
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Kweassa
You dont help your case by going crazy with your anologies.
In squadron service on a carrier headed to the front at wars end.
ww2 aircraft.
You guys arent worried that the Vampire will suddenly be in the game. You just really dont want any more late war planes in and this is one that you think you can boycot with religeos passion and affront cause you can make a case that its not a ww2 aircraft at all. Its not a signifigant one. But its a ww2 aircraft.
But dont worry so much. The chances of HT and pyro putting it in are next to nill.
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Nevermind.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Imagine that, some desperate custodian of aircraft purity making a pathetic strawman argument against the inclusion of the Bearcat.
IN service in squadron strength on a war cruise on a USN aircraft carrier before the end of the war. Its pilots are ww2 veterans even if they never flew another plane during the war. It is a ww2 aircraft.
Too bad you hate the idea. Apperently others like it and you dont get the luxury of rewriting history to remove this one from the record. Its a ww2 aircraft.
P-80 flew in 1944 (http://www.ww2guide.com/jetrock.shtml#p80)
Also history.
I imagine that the P-80 pilots were veterans also as they would most likely be experienced combat pilots.
F7F Tigercat. First service delivery: October 1944
P-61 Black Widow: Service delivery May 1944
Funny thing though. In the book Fighting Aircraft of WWII the F8F doesn't even show up, but then again neither does the P-80.
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there is more than one book about WWII aircraft. I have even seen one or two contradict each other.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
there is more than one book about WWII aircraft. I have even seen one or two contradict each other.
lazs
ROTF! :)
A kill has been recorded.
culero ;)