Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: OIO on March 20, 2005, 06:54:05 PM
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woot
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Entertaining show.
Following one may be even better.
How they might have been at least if not probable, plausable from the standpoint of science
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It's the first I've heard of the "hydrogen boyancy" theory. I laughed pretty damn hard at that one. The show was well done, but extremely stupid. The effects were outstanding. The story itself was crap.
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Its buoyancy, you tard.
-SW
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agreed. nice animations, story made up at the level of a 3rd grader and that hydrogen thing helping flight was so hilarious it was outright sad.
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They had to get those big birds in the air somehow. Can't just throw a prop on them:p I agree though, was a little hard to swallow, kinda entertaining from a purely "sure whatever you say" type of mind.
[edit]: gotta share this. My g/f came in after they did the fake discovery of the dragon corpse. First words from her,"THEY ACTUALLY FOUND ONE?!" My response, "Yeah, isn't that amazing!" Took her about 15 mins to catch on LOL:rofl
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Originally posted by Mini D
It's the first I've heard of the "hydrogen boyancy" theory. I laughed pretty damn hard at that one. The show was well done, but extremely stupid. The effects were outstanding. The story itself was crap.
What was so funny about it? Aniumals have been found to do some pretty wild things in nature nobody thought was possible.
Then again I suppose many moons ago is someone has said an octopus could change color people would have laughed then too
Im not saying I beleive any of the story as true or that they ever existed. There is a very high probability they didnt, but from what I understand they worked with all kinds of scientists and I imagine some of which know far more then any of us here, to produce an explanation that was scientifically plausable.
No matter. Was entertaining and thats all I hoped for
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Ok Im not a chemist nor a biologist.
But can any of you prove the Hydrogen theory couldnt be done?
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Have you ever seen a bottle of hellium float away? Try to lift one some day and see how much that helium stored inside lightens something that's 200 lbs.
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their idea for the firebreathing is believable.. to a certain point.
Its hard for me to consider that a species evolved its firebreathing ability by being able to find sources of platinum (which is not an easy mineral to find). Still, its possible.
But the hydrogen used as a requirement for flight.. totally bogus.
Remember, they said the hydrogen was required to fly... so the creature could not lift its own weight unless it had its sacs full or near full..... but it could fly and pick up a hundred pound or so sheep and fly off with it? Logic fails there.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Have you ever seen a bottle of hellium float away? Try to lift one some day and see how much that helium stored inside lightens something that's 200 lbs.
Playing devils advocate
I could go along with that arguement if animals were made out of and had the same density as steel. Birds, and Pterodons even have a bone structure that makes them much lighter and inch for inch much less dence then steel
the difference could be like the difference between a plastic bottle and a glass one not to mention it would have been able to store much more quantity then a steel gas cylinder. And it wouldnt have had to make it light enough to float away. Just light enough for the creature to be able to fly under its own power.
Actually I saw a video a few weeks ago of some nut who attached enough helium balloons to himself to be able to float and while it was one hell of alot of balloons it wasnt as many as one might think
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Originally posted by OIO
Remember, they said the hydrogen was required to fly... so the creature could not lift its own weight unless it had its sacs full or near full..... but it could fly and pick up a hundred pound or so sheep and fly off with it? Logic fails there.
Good point but remember the fight? it was able to breath fire to a certain point after which it could no longer maintain flight.
So logically speaking if it had enough to breathe fire during that fight and still remain airborne. Perhaps those same reserves used to breathe the fire in the fight would be enough to carry off a sheep.
LOL Silly debate but its fun
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Originally posted by OIO
their idea for the firebreathing is believable.. to a certain point.
Its hard for me to consider that a species evolved its firebreathing ability by being able to find sources of platinum (which is not an easy mineral to find). Still, its possible.
But the hydrogen used as a requirement for flight.. totally bogus.
Remember, they said the hydrogen was required to fly... so the creature could not lift its own weight unless it had its sacs full or near full..... but it could fly and pick up a hundred pound or so sheep and fly off with it? Logic fails there.
Why does it have to fly away. If it sits there and eats the sheep will the other sheep seek retribution?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Why does it have to fly away. If it sits there and eats the sheep will the other sheep seek retribution?
Prior to man getting involved.
He does have a point LOL
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Originally posted by OIO
agreed. nice animations, story made up at the level of a 3rd grader and that hydrogen thing helping flight was so hilarious it was outright sad.
ahhh ...
because maybe the targeted audience was about 3rd grade ?? :)
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There's nothing really to debate. They said "900 lbs". If you were to examine a bird, you'd see every aspect of it was designed to be lightweight. Nothing about a dragon is. It's why they had to create the stupid hydrogen theory. Looking at the paintings means the lift necessary for actual flight made the notion of a dragon simply impossible.
Of course, I found the undersea version just as laughable. Somehow, the hydrogen system that rendered a dragon light enough to fly still allowed him to maintain neutral buoancy. Yeppers. some sound thinking there.
Nice effects. Not much thought into anything else.
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Minus the part about hydrogen being absolutely necessary to fly, it was a neat show. Hydrogen would *help* a large animal fly, but wouldnt be necessary.
Looks like they drew on evolutionary paths of birds and reptiles to create the dragon show. And maybe the bombadier beetle, which shoots fire out of his rectum.
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Have they figured out how a bumble bee flies yet?
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i was just pissed to find out the whole thing was made up!
I mean the tauted it as a realy special, well from what i saw.
but it was entertaining to say the least.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Of course, I found the undersea version just as laughable. Somehow, the hydrogen system that rendered a dragon light enough to fly still allowed him to maintain neutral buoancy. Yeppers. some sound thinking there.
Only problem is there really were creatures that remarkably resembled the underwater dragon.
And whats so far fetched about that? Dont submarines work under a similar principle?
Perhaps while they produced it they simply didnt store as much of the hydrogen.
And if you look at the way they described the Dragon. They too were designed to be as light as possible. According to their description.
Actually the single largest problem I have with Dragons is ones never really been found.
People laughed at the thought of a world with giant reptiles in it and didnt think that was possible until people started digging them up. But we now know they were real.
If science has taught us one thing about nature, its taught us that there are all sorts of animals in the world that can and have been able to do all sorts of things we didnt think possible. So just because we may beleive something isnt possible doesnt mean it isnt.
But the fact still remains that will all the Dinosaurs that have been found. a Dragon hasnt.At least not yet.
And that more then anything else is the strongest arguement against their existance.
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Besides the other obvious things mentioned above, did anybody besides me find the whole thing about their craving for platinum a little too much to swallow.
Pun intended.
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dredlock, MYTHBUSTERS had a special on it.
To be able to lift the weight of a 5 year old child they needed like 400 balloons full of hydrogen. There were so many it practically filled the aircraft hangar they were doing the show in.
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Originally posted by OIO
dredlock, MYTHBUSTERS had a special on it.
To be able to lift the weight of a 5 year old child they needed like 400 balloons full of hydrogen. There were so many it practically filled the aircraft hangar they were doing the show in.
then how did the Hindenburg fly?
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Originally posted by slimm50
Besides the other obvious things mentioned above, did anybody besides me find the whole thing about their craving for platinum a little too much to swallow.
Pun intended.
Not really when you consider this
"Understanding Salt and Sodium
By ANN LOUISE GITTLEMAN, N.D., M.S.
SODIUM IS ESSENTIAL TO LIFE.
Sodium is so important, in fact, that humans have a specific sensor on the tongue that can detect salt. Thousands of years ago, when the diet of humans was potassium-rich and sodium-poor, this sensor for salt was a crucial survival tool. Nature, in her infinite wisdom, devised a way to help humans (as well as animals) seek out salty foods so they could be assured of receiving adequate sodium from their diets"
Animals often seek out specific nutrients during key times of the year
Some species of birds often take in stones to aid in digestion
So its not totally out of the realm of possibility
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Yeah, I can believe the possiblity of dragons I guess, with some exceptions. First, the fire breathing. Why would such a large apex preditor need this extra weapon? Normally species evolve a special ability through a need. The dragon was easily at the top of the list throughout time. Tooth and claw would have been more than enough. Also, with the excepton of the beetle(which is an insect, and insects seem to be the only things that don't follow the norm) no other creature has something so dramatic. You might say snakes have venom, but I wouldn't put that in the catagory of fire breathing.
Also the flight and helium kinda leaves me at a lose. I find this more likely than the fire breathing however, but once again, a large predator would have little use for this. Throughout the evolutionary coarse of history, I can't think of 1 large apex predator that has flown. I'm talking T-rex, tigers, bears, etc. Teridactles don't count, they were hardly and apex preditor.
And my final point is they had to throw in abilities from every species to make it work. Body of a reptile, wings of a bird, fire like an insect. And even after that, they still have to throw in helium sacs. It's just a bit to much for me. The dragon that was the most believable to me was the slender forest dragon. It didn't fly and it didn't rely on fire except to cook tigers lol. It was more realistic, it just sat still and ambushed, much like a tiger would do in that enviroment.
Basically, the closest thing to a dragon for me is a T-Rex. And at the same time, it's the strongest case against a dragon. The T-Rex was the king in it's day and it id it all without flying or fire, and it thrived. Hmmm, I didn't mean to write this much, I think I'll stop here. Anywho, that's my take on it all.:p
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dred... the things that make a creature lighter in air would make it much too light to be under water. Submarines use COMPRESSED air to displace water from TANKS. Having the compressed air in cannisters does nothing for them. If you don't believe me, ask a diver.
Also, just how does fire-breathing evolve in a sea based creature?
I have no doubt that there were creatures that resembled dragons. I have serious doubts about the fire-breathing and the flying capability. That show did nothing to dispell those doubts. The theories they offered up were simply rediculous.
In order for Hydrogen to lighten anything, it would have to be uncrompressed (displacing volumes of something)... not in a bladder. Check out exactly how big the hindenberg was and compare it to how small the cargo capacity was.
Dunno... seems like a pathetically silly thing to try an play devil's advocate on. That is, unless you have the same basic lack of understanding (in regards to physics) as the writers of that show.
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dredlock: the zeppellins, just like hot air balloons and just like the little kid they tried to make fly with party balloons fly by bouyancy, not just because there is lighter than air gas inside them.
http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/aero/planetary/atmospheric/balloon.html
in laymans terms, bouyancy works by creating a 'bubble' of lighter than the enviroment around you gas/fluid.. the density of the gas/fluid inside that bubble will determine the size (volume displaced) the 'bubble' needs to be to lift something.
To lift a 200lb human you would need a balloon about 4 meters in diameter to create bouyant lift to counter the 200lbs weight..more would be needed to actually fly it. A 900 lb dragon would need an 8 meter diameter bladder to counter the 900lbs weight. So even if the dragon used its wings to help counter its own weight, the dragon would still need to have hydrogen bladders displacing several meters wide inside it to have any bouyant lift.
And the dragons shown were barely bigger than a small cow in their body core (aka no tail/neck/wings taken into account). No place there to put the needed hydrogen sacs.
Unless they inflated like a frog's throat that is hehe. ;)
The firebreathing is entirely possible... maybe the platinum thing was farfetched but theres nothing to indicate a creature cant create a spark via chemical interaction (like the bombardier beetle) to ignite hydrogen thats coming out of its mouth.
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Originally posted by Mini D
dred... the things that make a creature lighter in air would make it much too light to be under water. Submarines use COMPRESSED air to displace water from TANKS. Having the compressed air in cannisters does nothing for them. If you don't believe me, ask a diver.
Also, just how does fire-breathing evolve in a sea based creature?
I have no doubt that there were creatures that resembled dragons. I have serious doubts about the fire-breathing and the flying capability. That show did nothing to dispell those doubts. The theories they offered up were simply rediculous.
In order for Hydrogen to lighten anything, it would have to be uncrompressed (displacing volumes of something)... not in a bladder. Check out exactly how big the hindenberg was and compare it to how small the cargo capacity was.
Dunno... seems like a pathetically silly thing to try an play devil's advocate on. That is, unless you have the same basic lack of understanding (in regards to physics) as the writers of that show.
Not nessicarily true.
One of the adaptations of Bony Fiishes includes a swim bladder. which is a Gas-filled sac that allows regulation of buoyant density
In our case the creature in question was not only the cargo but the balloon itself.
I already admitted it was silly.
but its not a whole lot more silly then most of the threads
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on another thought I am thinking. Again playing devils advocate if great leaping ability combined with and aided by wings could have been mistaken for powered flight
Its widely accepted that Dinosaurs such as velociraptor had great leaping ability now if the adaptation of wings were included.
Similar to the flying squirrel
Another thought comes to mind. the locust and the preying mantis each have large bodies in relation to their wings. the preying mantis in particular
And looking at this pic it does kinda bear a resemblence of a dragon LOL
(http://chiwaukee.org/images/picnic/2002/preying_mantis_020921_horizon.JPG)
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The whole problem with the theories is scale. It just doesn't translate to 1/2 ton creatures. The show errored greatly in that aproach. It was very poorly thought out.
I would have rather seen them delve more into the actual mythology of dragons and work from that aspect instead of the autopsy aproach.
They also failed to explain how their autopsy subject survived the comet that they claim wiped out all mountain dragons. A minor oversight in their timeline.
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Dragons are real.
I used to watch one every Saturday Morning. They called him Puff, and he was magic.
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Originally posted by Mini D
The whole problem with the theories is scale. It just doesn't translate to 1/2 ton creatures. The show errored greatly in that aproach. It was very poorly thought out.
I would have rather seen them delve more into the actual mythology of dragons and work from that aspect instead of the autopsy aproach.
They also failed to explain how their autopsy subject survived the comet that they claim wiped out all mountain dragons. A minor oversight in their timeline.
I would tend to agree.
I think the comet problem the idea was they repopulated the earth.
But the whole thing was really a guesstimate
Kinda hard to come upwith any real data without some kind of actual remains
Might be an interesting project though to see if one could with the proper materials be created to scale that would actually work.
I would have liked to have seen somethign like that tried
Much like was done with the pterodon.
Many people beleived that couldnt really fly also.
Hey if someone can make a lawnmower fly. why not LMAO
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body mass to lift is something you cannot get around. There was absolutely no explanation in the entire show that explained that. Hydrogen sacks would not generate lift unless they displaced volume... which they did not even remotely adress.
Something capable of chewing ore in order to "eat platinum" would have to have incredibly dense mussels and bone structures. The more they tried to explain, the more they contradicted themselves.
The prehistoric "birds" had incredible wingspan to body size ratios. Dragons did not. If they tried to go with the flightless aproach they would have been better off.
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Damn it MiniP, get yourself a freaking dictionary!!!!!!
-SW
PS: Bumblebees aren't supposed to fly due to their size vs wing area... or something like that. I still think dragons are a myth.
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You guys do realize that for anything to sustain flight, it would have to take in massive amounts of energy.
This tells us one of a few things assuming there were dragons.
1.) There were a lot of dragons, there wasn't a lot of food. So all the dragons ate all of the dinosaurs and then died of starvation.
2.) There were very very few dragons. They would go around devouring everything in their path (literally) just so that they could stay alive.
But then you have to take a look at the evolutionary standpoint.
The underwater dragon is believable. The hydrogen sack can easily be used. This creature would eventually wander up on land. It would not have wings, nor would it have need for the Bladder. By the time it evolved wings, it wouldn't have had the bladder.
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They also failed to explain how their autopsy subject survived the comet that they claim wiped out all mountain dragons. A minor oversight in their timeline.
Nothing larger than a cat survived the comet, they stated that on the show. Then after millions of years the earth was repopulated with animals through evolution. The mountain dragon was a decendant of the marine dragon. The autopsy subject was a 500 years dead specimen that was killed by 15th century man and frozen in an icecave.
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hehe elfie beat me to it. I think someone has to watch the show with a bit more attention. ;)
"PS: Bumblebees aren't supposed to fly due to their size vs wing area... or something like that. I still think dragons are a myth."
The bumblebee story is that an engineer in pre-computer times, in a social occassion, took a napkin and said that the bumblebee couldnt fly because its wings didnt have enough area to create lift like a rigid aircraft or a bird does. Nowadays they know the bumblebee and many other insects fly because their wings are flexible and 'twist' as they move up and down creating vortices..and its those vortices which the insect uses to fly.
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They showed the mountain dragon as a different evolutionary chain. The dragon that evolved from the sea serpent was not capable of flight and explained the chinese dragon portraits.
The mountain dragon is what they were saying was around before the comet struck, but was whiped out by the comet. The claim that something re-evolved into the same creature given drastically different environments is... umm... well... pretty typical for the show.
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Originally posted by OIO
hehe elfie beat me to it. I think someone has to watch the show with a bit more attention. ;)
"PS: Bumblebees aren't supposed to fly due to their size vs wing area... or something like that. I still think dragons are a myth."
The bumblebee story is that an engineer in pre-computer times, in a social occassion, took a napkin and said that the bumblebee couldnt fly because its wings didnt have enough area to create lift like a rigid aircraft or a bird does. Nowadays they know the bumblebee and many other insects fly because their wings are flexible and 'twist' as they move up and down creating vortices..and its those vortices which the insect uses to fly.
I think they are a myth also.
But assuming they are not and considering nobody has one for actual examination. Why would the same principle not also possbly hold true for a dragon?
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no, because the vortices can only be used for flight if you can beat your wings several hundred times a second.
No large animal can do that, only insects and hummingbirds.
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http://www.abc.net.au/dinosaurs/fact_files/volcanic/quetzalcoatlus.htm
Quetzalcoatlus- A flying dinosaur with the wingspan of a P-51.
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...and weighing only 100lbs.
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They showed the mountain dragon as a different evolutionary chain. The dragon that evolved from the sea serpent was not capable of flight and explained the chinese dragon portraits.
Evolved from the Marine Dragon according to the show. The chinese dragon was just one evolution of the dragon. According to the show the dragons before the comet hit were pre-historic dragons. Although they did use the same model for the pre-historic version and the Mountain version. At least, I couldnt tell any difference visually.
They also showed 2 different evolutionary chains for the dragons. One was pre-historic, the other was post-comet. The post-comet chain had the Marine Dragon evolving into the different land dragons.
I have always thought it was more than a coincidence that so many cultures throughout human history had myths about dragons. The myths all have some commonality about them, ie...dragons were reptilian, had wings and could breath fire.
It's not uncommon for archaeologists to find new fossils. By new I mean new species. Somehow I seriously doubt that we know about every species that ever existed.
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Next you'll be saying leprechauns don't exist.
Frosted Lucky Charms, don't touch my ****ing cereal.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Next you'll be saying leprechauns don't exist.
Frosted Lucky Charms, don't touch my ****ing cereal.
Now those I know DO exist
I know cause I caught one once but his pot O gold turned out to be nothing more then a half filled chamber pot:eek:
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Originally posted by OIO
...and weighing only 100lbs.
Ummm....thats 100 kilograms....not pounds :)