Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on March 21, 2005, 04:04:18 PM
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John DeLorean dead at 80.
John and Jim Wangers(advertising/car guy) were
the guys who came up with the idea of throwing
a Big V8 in a midsize car in 63. GM had a limit, no
V8 larger then 350 Cubes in a mid size car.
The result was the 64 GTO, a mid size car with
a 389 Cubic inch V8, and a 3 speed manual.
You could get a 2 speed auto or a 4 speed
manual as options. You could also order it
with Tri Power upping the HP from 325 to 345.
They had to hide the development from
the GM upper management, and got it
put in as a option package. When GM
management found out they were
upset and also convinced the option
would be a flop with less then 4000 in sales.
The option sold over 32,000 in the first
year, with no real advertising.
The option started the Muscle car craze,
once Pontiac did it, all the other GM
divisions followed. As did most other
American car makers.
By 65, the GTO was its own model.
To bad he messed up so bad in the 80s.
Thanks John, for making my favorite car.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/314_1110216963_img0008.jpg)
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Also see this thread. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146195)
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My thread is better, send them all here!
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He was first.
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He is also on ignore lol.
besides what does some Brit guy know of Pontiac, Musclecars and an American Icon? :D
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I like threads started by goats better than I like threads started by beetles.
:D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I like threads started by goats better than I like threads started by beetles.
:D
three duces and a four speed, and a 389
wawa...wawawawawawa
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Hell Weas
I think John and Jim were even responsible for that song.
Marketing genius.
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Only the odd couple of words to Add
Astin Martin
Bently
TVR
That'll do for now. Thats what Brits know about Muscle Cars! Oh and the land speed record. Mach1 Speed of sound. pretty bloody muscley that Noble Thrust2
:lol :D
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Drove this to work today
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze89ceb/65gto.jpg)
NUTTZ
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Broken link Nuts, but I know what it is I bet.
Edit, link works now. Nice car man. I hope druel doesnt kill keyboards lol.
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"Astin Martin
Bently
TVR"
None of those companies, make or has ever made a musclecar, they may be fast, but they are not musclecars.
Plus TVR produces some of the ugliest piles of crap on 4 wheels.
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There is only one country in the world you could have gotten a "musclecar". The term and the vehicles it applied to is 100% American. It was created and defined here, in the U.S.A.
Dunt futz with me on this one. I grew up in that era. :)
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder indeed.
Of course GtoRa your real agenda is anything not american is rubbish. But I know that so I'll let it go.
Skuzzy you are probably right it is an American term.
I do agree that is a nice car NUTTZ.:cool:
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No, I like many things not american, but thanks for showing us how much of a hypocrit you are again.
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:confused: Urm where's the hypocracy? enlighten me?
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Your hyporcracy is, you wine about labels and things like amerihater, then you label me anti anything american.
On top of that it was just a plain stupid thing to say.
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Actualy thats a fair point. My apologies.
( no smilie for shrugging shoulders ! ):)
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Accepted.
TVRs are still ugly as sin though!:D
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
There is only one country in the world you could have gotten a "musclecar". The term and the vehicles it applied to is 100% American. It was created and defined here, in the U.S.A.
Dunt futz with me on this one. I grew up in that era. :)
Ditto on that!....Wish i had all the MOPARS i owned back then "now"!
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Goats were great cars, definitely an influence in the development of an era of fine stuff from Detroit. Delorean is a hero for what he did in that regard.
I owned what I consider to be the ultimate evolution of what Pontiac started with the Goat - a 1971 TransAm 455HO. Same engine family as the GTO 389, in fact using the RamAir cylinder heads developed for the 389/3X2bbl setup, but with a four-bolt main bearing block, cast iron individual passage header-style exhaust manifolds, aluminum intake manifold, a true OEM high performance package in a chassis with much superior handling characteristics than the Goat (it had much better suspension than a standard Firebird and in that year actually had effective ground effect spoilers). It was wickedly fast stock, felt like it was on rails as it hit 100mph and got better as it went faster (it felt in its element with more power to spare at 140mph, as fast as I ever took it). I credit Delorean for setting Pontiac on the path that resulted in that car, and am grateful for having had the pleasure of it.
He also was responsible for the first Tempest, a truly innovative design.
The stainless steel car he's so often criticized for has a very interesting story behind it. Anyone with an interest should read it. I can tell you that he had a brilliant idea that would have been a very nice car had he been able to do it as he wished to. Many things, including UK/Irish politics contributed to his concept's demise by way of castration.
One of the features of my car repair shop was that I specialized, amongst other things, in the repair of Delorean cars. I got started because one of my good customers bought one and needed me for it. Eventually, several from the local area found me (because most people wouldn't touch 'em or weren't able to do 'em right).
That car was a miserable thing to have to work on, and a disappointment in every respect in terms of the execution of design. That said, I got a lot of admiring glances from folks (including nubile females) whenever I took one for a test drive. I gotta admit it was fun :)
He got a really raw deal on the drug bust thing, blatant bait/entrapment by the Feds. That's in the book, too. Its a good read, recommended.
culero
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austin martins and bentlys are rich boys toys and the TVR's i'v worked on had ford V8's in them.
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"hypocracy" :eek:
You anglos, from either side of the pond, should learn your own language, or something.
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Shut up.
No one likes spelling and grammar nazis.
Don't have anything to say about Musclecars or John D? The get the F of this thread.
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In fact I'd say Aston Martins are nice cars that no one really should buy and musclecars are brutal contraptions of debatable sense or beauty.
I just own a tiny and underpowered Italian econobox, see the pink in my flag. Envy made me tease you. :D
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lol
Sorry, I am in a bit of a mood this morning. Car pooling when I am not the driver for the week pisses me off.
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It's funny. I don't know GtoRA2 at all, but he was the first person I thought of when I read that Delorean had passed away.
Wierd.
BTW, yeah, John and Jim were responsible for the song "Little GTO." And it was great marketing.
-Sik
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Thats kinda funny sick.
Man from the time I turned 15, tell about a year or so before my dad died, I lived and breathed everything GTO.
I was hooked on them like Crack.
I still love the cars, and still dig muscle cars but, not like I used to. Prolly something to do with my dad dying.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Only the odd couple of words to Add
Astin Martin
Bently
TVR
That'll do for now. Thats what Brits know about Muscle Cars! Oh and the land speed record. Mach1 Speed of sound. pretty bloody muscley that Noble Thrust2
:lol :D
you cant even spell 'Aston'....
one of my pet hates is people that cannot spell it. usually it is 'Austin Martin'.
Nearest any of them as come to a muscle car i *think* in my limited knowledge about the american term would be the Aston Martin V8 Vantage, but i am probably wrong..
anyway:-
(http://digilander.libero.it/Logiko2031/Aston%20Martin%20V8%20Vantage%20Le%20Mans.jpg)
Despite looking like a warthog it is pretty awesome
engine TwinTurbocharged V8
valvetrain Quad Cam, 4 Valves / Cyl
displacement 5340 cc / 325.9 cu in
power 447.4 kw / 600.0 bhp @ 6500 rpm
hp per litre 112.36 bhp per litre
bhp/weight
torque 820 nm / 604.8 ft lbs @ 4000 rpm
body / frame Aluminum
front brakes AP Racing Vanted Discs w/ABS
f brake size 362 mm / 14.3 in
r brake size 310 mm / 12.2 in
front wheels F 45.7 x 25.4 cm / 18.0 x 10.0 in
rear wheels R 45.7 x 25.4 cm / 18.0 x 10.0 in
front tire size 285/45ZR18
rear tire size 285/45ZR18
steering Rack & Pinion w/Power Assist
weight 1975 kg / 4354 lbs
wheelbase 1611 mm / 63.4 in
length 4745 mm / 186.8 in
width 1944 mm / 76.5 in
height 1330 mm / 52.4 in
transmission ZF 6-Speed Manual
top speed 321.9 kph / 200.0 mph
0 - 60 mph 3.8 seconds
0 - 100 mph 9.9 seconds
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=23
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Blimey I feellike I'm back in English class!
Nice car though. warthog or no, I bet it shifts. Until the traffic slows ;) ( had to get that in )
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Oh, and i was wrong...
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.
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You already found it.
Like I said, the only country in the world where one could get a "musclecar" is in the country that defined and created the term. The U.S.A.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
You already found it.
Like I said, the only country in the world where one could get a "musclecar" is in the country that defined and created the term. The U.S.A.
yup... shame you can't build "sports cars" too ;) :D
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Why do what has been done? :D
Seriously, with the roads we have the go-fast cars we make are just fine. I would be willing to wager the cost of ownership of a Corvette would be far less than that of a Ferrari or Aston Martin, regardless of other circumstances.
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i agree, the english roads are generally narrow and twisty, sports cars are in heaven on them - why the emphasis is placed so highly on handling.
Corvettes etc suit your style of roads completely, i am suprised they are not more popular in places like germany for those long high speed autobahns ;)
typo ;)
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I would not consider a Corvette (you can spell Aston, but not Corvette? :D) if I lived in Germany either.
Our roads are not setup for high speed driving either. The Corvette has the muscle to make the speed, but duration would be of concern on the Autobahn. It's not legal to go-fast here and when you do, you do it for short burst, which the Corvette will handle well enough.
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AMC Javelin AMX...
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I would not consider a Corvette (you can spell Aston, but not Corvette? :D) if I lived in Germany either.
Our roads are not setup for high speed driving either. The Corvette has the muscle to make the speed, but duration would be of concern on the Autobahn. It's not legal to go-fast here and when you do, you do it for short burst, which the Corvette will handle well enough.
Sounds about right. That's alot of the reason AWD relatively low priced boosted rockets (WRX, Evo, ION Redline) are still riding their popularity explosion. 0-60-0-60-0-60-0-60.
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I lost any respect or admiration for Corvette's after I smoked one with a MOPAR 4 banger.
(http://www.surpluselectron.com/aaron/scharg.jpg)
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Thats oK, cause vettes aint musle cars and are way over priced.
Damn GM robbed Pontiac of its tri power after 66 to make it Vette only.
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The first car I ever owned was a 1965 GTO convertible. 389 w/tri-power and 4-speed. I paid $600 for it in 1972. I can't imagine what it's worth now.
:(
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Good gosh rpm, get that ratty thing out of this musclecar discussion.
And GTo is correct. There are no musclecars anymore. That era died in the first gas crunch (actually it sort of was on the way to dieing before then). I think it was 73(?) when that happened.
I think the last true musclecars (what I would call true muscle cars) were made around 69 and 70.
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And who could forget that other early muscle car, the "409"! I owned a 65' Impala SS 409, 4-speed. A heavy car, but when you're pushing 425hp, it gets groceries pretty quick.
"She's so fine, my 409!"
:aok
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67 Ford Galaxy 500 XL with a dual 4bbl 427 engine w/side oilers.
I knew a girl in high school who owned one and a convertible at that. Rare car, with an even rarer engine.
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I owned one of these also. LOL, I delivered pizza's In a 65 gto 4speed, they nicknamed me "Dash" cause i was the fastest pizza delivery boy EVER! too bad the pizza's where all mashed in a hot steamy mess in the back of the box, and didn't resemble ANYTHING close to a pizza.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by 2stony
And who could forget that other early muscle car, the "409"! I owned a 65' Impala SS 409, 4-speed. A heavy car, but when you're pushing 425hp, it gets groceries pretty quick.
"She's so fine, my 409!"
:aok
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As awsome as the 409 Chevies were they were not muscle cars.
Awsome cars yes, Muscle no.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Good gosh rpm, get that ratty thing out of this musclecar discussion.
LOL Skuzzy! Its a mopar, it prolly looked just like that the day it drove off the show room floor!:D
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Originally posted by GtoRa2:
As awsome as the 409 Chevies were they were not muscle cars.
So a 62-64 Bel Air or Biscayne with a hi-po 409 with radio and heater delete is not a muscle car? I think you need to re-think this.
:rolleyes:
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No, you need to read the post made here about what a muscle car is.
Unless I am mistaken and the full size chevies, like the impala Bel air and biscane are not FULL SIZE Chevies.
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.
The cars with Radio and heater delete were factory race cars. Meant to be sold to racers.
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Wow. These cars were considered classics before I was even born. You people are old. :p
Hey, don't get upset though. For pretty much my entire life... the most common car on the road has been 4 cylinder Camry's.
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Thats ok, the world just get worse the older it gets!
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Originally posted by GtoRa2:
impala Bel air and biscane are not FULL SIZE Chevies.
But they are "full size" Chevys. The only difference between the three is chrome, options and tail lights. They have the same frame, wheel base, etc. There were no Chevy's made from 61-65 that were larger/heavier than these.
Besides, with the same driver, the 409 would beat the GTO anytime(both stock of course).
;)
P.S. As for race cars, the "normal" Bel Airs and Biscaynes were the same except for the "deletes". I would, however, consider the ones with the Z-11 motors to be "race cars".
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Right and you still missed the point, a muscle car is a mid size car like a chevelle, torino, GTO charger etc.
The full size cars like the imapalla, catalina, galaxy etc, as fast as they were were not muscle cars they were to big to apeal to the "youth" and to pricey.
Thats why the muscle car era started with the GTO in 64 and not the 409 chevy, in 60 or 61.
Besides, with the same driver, the 409 would beat the GTO anytime(both stock of course).
That is so much BS as well. It would depend on the options on both cars. the 64/65 Goats were pretty light, with few options and tri power the they could come in around 3300 pounds. Ordered right they would give most 409s a damn good race if not beat them.
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were to big to apeal to the "youth"
So the "409" wasn't made to appeal to youth? What song came out first(because I don't know), "She's So Fine" or "Little GTO"?
I don't care what the criteria is for a "muscle car", they are what they are. If "mid size" is the criteria, then the Hemis wouldn't be considered muscle cars either. Or any of the Mopars with 440s, etc. Muscle car is an adjective, not a precise description as you state.
As for the options, 389 w/tri- power won't stand up to a Bel Air with a 409 hp 409 cu in. If I'm not mistaken, the 64-65 GTOs biggest engine was the tri-power version. I owned both types of cars, and the 409 was definately faster, even though it weighed more.
I raced a 65' Corvette with a hi-po 396 and stayed dead even with him in my 4,000 lb. 65' Impala 409. I'm sure the Vette weighed less than my Impala. We both had 4-speeds.
Ball is in your court!
;)
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Dude
Midsize was not engine size but car size. You are aware thet a 409 impalla as cool as it is, is about the size of an Forestal class CV?
let me make this clear.
A: they were big.
B: they were exspensive compared to the Mid size Cars like the chevelle, GTO, Charger road runner etc.
C: The 409 was rare most SS impallas has 283 or 327s in them. (I think, but I am not expert on early 60s non musclecars :) )
The Musclecar came about when John D and his advertising guy Jim Wangers decided to put a 389 V8 in a lemans/tempest body, a mid size car.
Mopar came back with the Road runnerm GTX and charger, all muscle cars cause they packed BIG v8s into Mid size cars.
as long as it was a big V8 in a Mid size Cars it was a muscle car, camaros and Mustangs are pony cars and Full size cars with big motors are fast fullsize cars but not muscle cars.
From 61 to 64 how many 409 chevies got sold? I would be floored if it came close to 30,000 of them.
It does not mater if your 409 could beat a F-16 in a drag, it is not, will not, nor will it ever be a musclecar. It was not just about speed, it was about apealing to a market that was either not interested in big cars, or could not afford them or both.
Now If you want to keep thinking your 409 is a musclecar and the fastest thing on 4 wheels thats fine, but you are wrong on the muscle car part.
Most young adults from the time wanted something smaller and sporty like a GTO and not a land boat like dad or granddad drove like an imapalla.
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I don't care what John D. and his buddies "decided" a muscle car was "supposed" to be "Dude". Small, medium or big cars with a high horsepower motor are "muscle cars" "Dude".
Toe mah toe, toe may toe, it's all in what you want to call it "Dude". I can't believe you're sticking to some criteria that someone decided on "Dude".
You're probably one of those guys that "goes by the book" and is afraid to "step out". It's ok, you can call those "big cars" muscle cars and no one will think badly of you.
:rolleyes:
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If ignorance is bliss you must be one happy guy.
So what other words do you define your own way?
But hey if calling your invincable 409 a Musclecar is so important you, more power to you.
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409 was a good engine, not going to take that away from it. But if you wanna compare very rare stuff a 61 catalina w/ the 421 was the fastest car in it's class.
I would still take the GTO w/ the 389 or 400 or 68' ram air 400 over the 409.
Right now the 65 i posted in this thread sports a 455.
My convertable still has the 389 tri power although it's in a thousand parts.
The GTO also had the thinest metal body parts , thats why they rust out so fast, I once lost a whole tool box threw a hole in the trunk.
Funny my 65 convertable is as long as my moms old lincoln, mid sized my ass:)
P.S. that is a Coors light in my hand, I have to watch my girlish figure:)
NUTTZ
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Nuttz
Was the 61 Cat, the car you could order with a swiss cheese frame, and aluminum front fenders hood and drums?
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whooops,, i FUBAREDD, It was a 62 Catalina the one with the curved half circle tailights. I could ask my dad, he had a 62 catalina w/ a 421 4 speed, you could hear him coming home 5 blocks away.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Nuttz
Was the 61 Cat, the car you could order with a swiss cheese frame, and aluminum front fenders hood and drums?
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62 cat was the swiss cheese car ..
I think i'll let ya all argue somemore befor i really ring in and set ya all straight
:D
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Bah, set us strait now!
I named my moms cat Catalina.
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Chevelle was the first LITTLE CAR with a big bellybutton motor, and it was in 1960, and Deloran was a hack, not the father of musculy cars. There is no bigger pc of **** than the Delorean, except maybe the Briklin, which at least looked cool and had an actual motor.
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GtoRa2, I never said my 409 was the ****e, I just said it was a muscle car. IMO, a muscle car is any car that's a typical daily driver that has an option for a big motor with lots of horsepower. {i.e. A Tempest with the big motor became the GTO. The Camero and Mustangs were Pony cars, but had the option of a fast motor. The "full sized" Chevys came with any engine from a six to a 409(396, 427 & 454 in later years)}. Here's a list compiled by a site devoted to muscle cars. It looks like the 67 GTO made it to number 47 on the list of the 50 fastest muscle cars.
50 FASTEST MUSCLECARS
# YEAR/MODEL ET/MPH ENGINE HP TRANS GEAR SOURCE
1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118 427 8V 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/65
2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.36 CD 11/65
3 1969 Road Runner 12.91@111.8 440 Six BBL 390 4-Speed 4.10 SS 6/69
4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/69
5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.55 CC 11/69
6 1969 Camaro 13.16@110.21 427 ZL1 430 4-Speed 4.10 HC 6/69
7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68
8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 SS 12/69
9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 MT 1/70
10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.55 CD 6/68
11 1969 Charger 500 13.48@109 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 4.10 HR 2/69
12 1968 Charger 13.50@105 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.23 CD 11/67
12 1970 Plymouth Superbird 13.50@105 426 Hemi 425 ? ? ?
14 1968 Road Runner 13.54@105.1 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.55 CD 1/69
15 1973 Trans Am 13.54@104.29 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73
16 1969 Corvette 13.56@111.1 427 L88 430 automatic 3.36 HR 4/69
17 1969 Super Bee 13.56@105.6 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 4.10 HR 8/69
18 1969 Boss 429 Mustang 13.60@106 Boss 429 375 4-Speed 3.91 HC 9/69
19 1970 Challenger R/T 13.62@104.3 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 3.23 CC 11/69
20 1970 Torino Cobra 13.63@105.9 429 SCJ 370 automatic 3.91 SS 3/70
21 1968 Biscayne 13.65@105 427 L72 425 4-Speed 4.56 SS 4/68
22 1964 Polara 500 13.70@107.37 426 4V 365 4-Speed 3.23 HC 2/64
23 1969 GTX 13.70@102.8 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 MT 1/69
24 1969 Dart 440 13.71@105 440 4V 375 automatic 3.55 CC 5/69
25 1971 Road Runner 13.71@101.2 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 CC 1/71
26 1971 Cuda 13.72@106 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 SS 4/71
27 1971 Corvette 13.72@102.04 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.36 CL 8/71
28 1971 Super Bee 13.73@104 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 MT 12/70
29 1968 Hurst/Olds 13.77@103.91 455 W-30 390 automatic 3.91 SS 8/68
30 1970 Hemi 'Cuda 13.78@101.2 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 MT 9/69
31 1968 Firebird 13.79@106 400 HO 335 4-Speed N/A HR 3/68
32 1967 Corvette 13.80@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.55 HR 5/67
33 1965 Catalina 13.80@106 421 6V ? 4-Speed 3.42 CD 3/65
34 1969 Super Bee Six Pack 13.80@104.2 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 CD 7/69
35 1971 Boss 351 Mustang 13.80@104 Boss 351 330 4-Speed 3.91 MT 1/71
36 1966 Satellite 13.81@104 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CD 4/66
37 1969 Coronet R/T 13.83@102.27 440 4V 375 4-Speed 4.10 SS 4/69
38 1968 Cyclone GT 13.86@101.69 428 CJ 335 automatic 4.11 MT 8/68
39 1969 Nova SS 396 13.87@105.1 396 4V 375 automatic 3.55 HR 7/69
40 1969 Shelby GT-500 13.87@104.52 428 CJ 335 4-Speed 3.91 SS 9/69
41 1969 Cyclone Cobra Jet 13.88@101.7 428 CJ 335 automatic 4.11 MT 1/69
42 1970 Olds 4-4-2 W-30 13.88@95.84 455 W-30 370 automatic 3.42 CC 11/69
43 1962 Corvette 13.89@105.14 327 FI 360 4-Speed 4.10 HR 1/62
44 1969 Barracuda 13.89@103.21 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 SS 8/69
45 1962 Catalina 13.90@107 421 4V ? 4-Speed 4.30 MT 5/62
46 1969 Mustang Mach I 13.90@103.32 428 CJ 335 automatic 3.50 CL 3/69
47 1967 GTO 13.90@102.8 400 RA 360 automatic 4.33 CL 10/67
48 1970 Trans Am 13.90@102 400 RA 345 4-Speed 3.91 HR 2/70
49 1970 Torino Cobra 13.99@101 429 4V ? 4-Speed 3.91 MT 2/70
Legend: CC=Car Craft, CD=Car and Driver, CL=Car Life, HC=Hi Performance Cars, HR=Hot Rod, MCR=Muscle Car Review, MM=Mopar Muscle, MT=Motor Trend, SS=Super Stock
Yes, I noticed that there are no 409s on the list, but it does show you the range of cars that are considered muscle cars from pony cars, to mid-size to full size. Get over "who coined the phrase" muscle car and see that your "narrow" description has a "narrow" fan base.
Daddy luvs ya!
:aok
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Ah the good ole mag list ... some of those are prepped cars , some arnt . that 67 gto is one of the heaviest on the list and wasnt a prepped car . boy they left alot of factory stock classed cars off that list.
notice the '64 427 thunderbolt isnt in the list that car was a rocketship of its time ,same with the 427 gt/gta fairlane . hell the '65 Gto was a 13.10/.30 car off the showroom.
anyone remember that little dart w/ the 340 and a 6 pack ??? or the 69 trans am RA IV ???
(just tossing more crutons in the salad here
:D )
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Originally posted by Roscoroo:
hell the '65 Gto was a 13.10/.30 car off the showroom
Not even close. I owned one of those and you were lucky to get it in the high 13s on a good day. There's no way a stock 65' Goat w/389 tri-power would get into the low 13s.
:rolleyes:
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Roscoroo, I was wrong. Here's the actual 1/4 performance for a 65' Goat with 3.90 gears, 389 tri-power, 4-speed.
Performance: 389/360 (3x2): 0-60 in 6.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec @ 99mph.
Hell, my 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP is faster with a 255hp six. The 65' was actually not very fast.
;)
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I guess i better fill in the blanks here ... as for theres alot of stuff you guys dont know about ...
Well back in the day there were several dealerships across the U.S. were everyone went to by there" factory stock race cars" ..
sort of like how you can buy all the ford motorsport stuff outta the ford dealers . Well they did the installs and retune's right there at the dealer back then .
Every once and awhile these cars managed to get hooked up for a magazine test ...
These cars were ussually non insulated , optioned out just for racing . they did everything from changing to thinner head gaskets, to rocker ratio's, recurved distributors, exhaust , and verious other tweeks to get the car light and fast .
Now how I know all this you ask ...
Because I own one of those cars .
It was bought by my dad back when i was a pup .. I aquired it when i was 15 and ive had it for over 25 yrs now ..
Ok the car Its one of 51 built '66 GTO's non insulated , 6 cyl frame , sport coupe, XS 389 tri power , 4 speed, 4.33's , ram air ,rally gages , electronic ignition... my car ran 12.80's from day one .. with a cam change and better exhaust it ran 12.30's in the factory classes . one of the big things that made these cars out perform the others is they left over 350- 400 lbs outta the car when they were built . mine weighs in at 3150 in full dress with the spare in the trunk . an normal '66 weighs 3400+ and a 67 gto weighs close to 3700 in full opt dress . remember the rule of weight in racing every 100 lbs is equal to 1/10th of a second.
so the magazine tests were very rarely correct in true performance wise for the cars everyone was buying back then . (I sort of have a feeling insurance or other factors came into play )
I've personally owned over 70 gto's/leman's... and ive had a few others 10 or so camaro's ,a roadrunner, a 340 dart , a 69 cougar eliminator , 69 xr-7, malibu's and assorted others over the years .. (ive killed enough of these cars to make ya cry )
I know were several of the super stock dodges and other factory race cars live ... I can show ya everything from swiss cheese cats... to the feared 64 thunderbolts (can you say 11.60's outta the box) want to talk Hemi's I know were theres more of these then you can count .. I can show ya factory cyl heads that hardly anyone has ever seen or even knows about .
Also remember as tire technology got better alot of these cars got faster .. alot of the mag tests were limited by this back then ..
back in '66/67 pontiac had the 2 "tiger cars" that ran around the drag curcuit that were promotional and they would let ya race one if ya knew who to talk to . these were the same as what ive got .. if ya look them up u'll see they ran 12.80's - 13.10's most of the time .
So theres a whole underground world of cars that alot of you guys now know about .. I've lived, breathed, breeded in this world for my whole life .
ok off to work ... befor i get yeowled at ..
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Rosco
I knew about how Pontiac used "special" cars, sometimes gone over by royal pontiac for the magazine test etc.
But I still dont see how that makes me wrong on what a musclecar is.:D
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gee RPM regale us all again with your story of how your econo crap box beat the big nasty worn out smog era vette that was running on all 5 of it's 8.0 to 1 compression cylinders.
lazs
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Roscoroo, nice lineup of cars you've owned. I'm somewhat jealous of a few of them. Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth came out with I believe two cars, one being the Dart and the other a Cuda that came with an 800hp engine and you could order one of them. I think they still have a special class for those at the drags. My 65' GTO ragtop was one of my three favorite cars that I've owned and I have a special place for it because it was my first. The other two are my 65' Impala SS 409 and my 64 Nova 283(both had 4-speeds). I'm getting nostalgic just thinking about them now.
:cool:
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But I still dont see how that makes me wrong on what a musclecar is.
The horse is dead GtoRa2. Some people agree with you and some people agree with me, so there you are.
;)
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I would not consider a Corvette (you can spell Aston, but not Corvette? :D) if I lived in Germany either.
Our roads are not setup for high speed driving either. The Corvette has the muscle to make the speed, but duration would be of concern on the Autobahn. It's not legal to go-fast here and when you do, you do it for short burst, which the Corvette will handle well enough.
It's a bit a legend :),at least not true for the whole road network.
I'm sure there is some AutoBahn parts where a horse will be faster than a car :)
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I found that french roads have no speed limit either..... the 100m or so approaching pedestrian crossings.
Its like normal traffic, then suddenly they reach that 100m and they all hit the pedal to the metal.
Jerks :D
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The parts of Germany I have been too had very nice high speed roads straffo (mostly northern Germany).
I have only been in cities in France so cannot comment on the road conditions outside of the cities.
Italy is quite crazy though. Roads outside of major cities are a lot of fun.
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I've been to the oldest on Bavaria and isome parts were a pain (doing more than 90km/h was dangerous)
@furball : here you look to the left before crossing.
You were dangerous not us :D
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hell... I consider the '50 olds coupe a muscle car. biscanes with 409's weighed less than full optioned GTO's in most cases.
I guess I never liked the term "muscle car" anyway... Amereican Muscle seems better.
lazs
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Quote:
By 65, the GTO was its own model.
Wrong.It was not it's own model until 1966.
Technically there is no 64,65 GTO because it was a Tempest with the GTO Option.
Too settle it any car that had a big block motor and was midsized was a Muscle Car.All that changed through the years though,as the cars got bigger.
And don,t forget the 1966 Catalina 2+2 HD with the Factory souped 421 ci.
The song little GTO was brought too jim wangers attention by 2 boys who persisted in him hearing the song,so they made him a tape after which the lyrics were unintelligable he re-wrote them and came up with the final song.
So here is some trivia for u all who recorded the song and what was on the flip side of it?
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Iklink
I was not 100% sure if it was 65 or 66 that it became its own model.
Should have gone 66 I see lol.
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Actually it was a lemans w/ the option. The difference is the window frame on the door, Tempest has them, LeMans and GTO don't.
64 headlights are side to side.
65 are up and down. and body style is completely changed.
66 body style completely changed
67 just like 66 just different tail lights
68 body style completely changed again.
But yes in 64' 65' they were dealer options.
I think the statement really ment the Idea of the GTO was firmly planted in 65'. So it's all in the interpritation.
Either way the GTO is a fine car that most people wouldn't mind having parked in thier driveway:)
NUTTZ
Originally posted by 1Klink
Quote:
By 65, the GTO was its own model.
Wrong.It was not it's own model until 1966.
Technically there is no 64,65 GTO because it was a Tempest with the GTO Option.
Too settle it any car that had a big block motor and was midsized was a Muscle Car.All that changed through the years though,as the cars got bigger.
And don,t forget the 1966 Catalina 2+2 HD with the Factory souped 421 ci.
The song little GTO was brought too jim wangers attention by 2 boys who persisted in him hearing the song,so they made him a tape after which the lyrics were unintelligable he re-wrote them and came up with the final song.
So here is some trivia for u all who recorded the song and what was on the flip side of it?
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The 67 had parking lightz in the grill also,and was a tad bit bigger.
I had a chance to buy a 69 GTO about 10 years ago.
It had the Ram Air V motor in it,not the Ram Air III or IV.
They only produced 500 of those motors in 1971,1 was a 428 ci. with 2 - 4 barrels,and the other was a 400 ci. with the single 4 barrel.The guy only wanted $3500 for the car,but i was already in the process of building my 1971 Le Mans T-37 which had a 428 ci.
with a Tri-Power set up off of a 65 GTO 389,coupled too the M-21 Rock crusher Tranny.
That car was for real grease lightning.
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I beleive that was a 426 not a 428.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I beleive that was a 426 not a 428.
I think that we should ask an expert in general automotive knowledge...
(http://www.htautographs.com/celebrity/images/t/tomei.JPG)
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426 is a Mopar thing Skuzzy
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
Actually it was a lemans w/ the option. The difference is the window frame on the door, Tempest has them, LeMans and GTO don't.
64 headlights are side to side.
65 are up and down. and body style is completely changed.
66 body style completely changed
67 just like 66 just different tail lights
68 body style completely changed again.
But yes in 64' 65' they were dealer options.
I think the statement really ment the Idea of the GTO was firmly planted in 65'. So it's all in the interpritation.
Either way the GTO is a fine car that most people wouldn't mind having parked in thier driveway:)
NUTTZ
'66 was its own model .. befor that the gto was just an option .
from '64 - '66 they came in three body styles,
Hard top
Convertable
Sport coupe - (has post around the door window ) yes the gto had a post for the 1st 3 years ... any post gto after this is a fake . (my '66 is a Post "sport coupe" as for these were the lightest body's )
67-72 the GTO came in 2 models
hardtop
convertable
(note; they still made post car's on the Tempest,lemans, T-37 but not the Gto or the Judge) I did see a 68 once that the guy swore was a post gto but he shied away when i asked to see the build tag ..
the tri power option ran from 64- 66 1/2 with the 389 ci , in 67 they went to the Q-jet on the 400 ci with the 670 casting cyl heads 2.11 intake valves, the early 67 heads are closed chamber ,the later and all heads after this are open chamber .
in '68 they came out with the Round port heads for the ram air 2 engine .
the ram air 3 engine was a D port engine and the heads were seen on bolth the 400 and the 428 ci these were basically the same as the late '67 "670" casting heads
1969 ... here we still have the ram air 3 engine ... but low and behold here comes the ram air 4 (these heads are based on the ram air 2 heads with round port exhaust ,, but with bigger ports , a set of virgin ram air 4 heads can bring a pritty penny these days "5000+ " )
also in '69 pontiac came out for there trans am racing program the "Tunnel port " engine alias the Ram air 5 ,
now this was the monster of pontiacs
this eng was strickly for racing use ... and were never put in a car for resale . they went out the backdoor and straight to certian people .. they made this eng in 303 ci and 400 ci .
there was 200 sets of heads made and 50 intakes manufactured for the RA 5 .
there are a couple of these engs in Gto's /TA's .. I myself had a set of these heads for awhile. but i never put them together ... I did get to see a dyno pull on one and let me tell ya 927 hp (that made my 427 ci ford in my 9 sec cougar at that time flinch "it was only 790 hp ") this was back in the early '80's way befor turbo's and N2O was common place .. these motors were banned from most racing classes ..
The intake ports on these heads are bigger then 351 clevelands by over 1/2 inch and the push rod has to go thru a tube pressed into the head thru the port .
now supposedly no 421ci or 428 ci engines were offered from the factory in a '64-69 Gto ..... but I did own a 65 convertiable that I bought from the original owner that had a build date matching 421 / 2bbl engine in it ... I do believe this may have been one of the factory flukes , it was sort of a rare optioned 65 also .. Ti ignition , rally gages, power steering/brakes/ antenia , 4 way power seats and windows , Mayfair maize paint / black interior/white top ... kinda wierd thats for shure .. (my good friend has one the really rare 65 converts thats in the ultra rare "Tiger Gold" paint but w/ the black int/top and the Hurst wheels )
ok thats enough for now ...
And Nuttz you better have disc brakes on your Gto or im gonna beat ya ...
I did mine back in '80 and added the aluminum rear drums along with the 1 3/8's front bar 1 in rear bar .. its really sic to have a Gto that corners too :D
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Man Im so glad I was a teen, at the time these cars were "the cool car" but cheap enough by then that I could afford one. I had a 70 Chevelle. She was tired and being in New Hampshire, here body and frame were pretty much gone. But she still had that shape.
Something about mid60s-70,71 cars, that had great shapes to them. Not these ugly stamped out cake pan lookin MFs that we see today. That said..that boxy looking van thats out now may be a return to square shapes, and aerodynamics be damned!
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Thats my Fav. rosco,the tiger gold paint.
The one thing you forgot was that back in the DAY you could go into a dealership and order the car the way you wanted it,then a couple of monthz later it was there at the dealership just like you ordered it.
The rarest one i have seen was a 68 GTO with a BENCH seat,frickin crazy man,how can somebody own that car without the buckets and a 4 speed?
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ive seen several bench seat gto's even 4 speed ones that way ... in 68 you could get the chrome front bumper too instead of the endura one .. my fav option (besides the tri power) has always been the am/fm w/ the reverb box, my 66 has that and its way cool sounding .
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yeah... I had a reverb in my 57 chevy business coupe... that was a neat car... 394 olds motor with tri power and muncie 4 speed in a two door sedan that looked inocent as all hell. Would run 13.6 in the quarter on street tires just pulling up to the staging lane on grudge nite after a night of cruising...
lazs
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What the funk is MOPAR?
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it is a word that has allways made guys with ford and chevy fast cars just a little bit..... uneasy.
lazs
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LOL@ Laz,yea like GTX,or wedge.
66 is my fav. year of GTO.
Why would anybody in thier right mind take a 283 out of a 57 chevy?That's like the best engine general motors ever produced.
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but what does it mean?
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dodge/plymouth/chrysler = mopar , which also = very very collectable cars these days ....
that last '70 Hemi cuda convert that sold was hidding a few doors down from my shop ( the cops set the guy up and came stole his cuda from him .... something about getting busted for growing wacky plants a few years earlier ..and they took that along with alot of his other cars)
but that sold up here for 450,000 ...
ive been doing a fair amount of work on the early 300 series cars ... fins fins fins and more fins, early hemi /max wedge eng's ... these cars have been selling 200,000 + these days
(http://www.4wheelz.net/virtual/carz/chrysler/300j/1963_chrysler_300j_engine.jpg)
(http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chrysler-300/images/chrysler-300-1a.jpg) http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chrysler-300/chrysler-300-pictures.shtml (http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chrysler-300/chrysler-300-pictures.shtml)
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Even rusty junker Mopars are pricey now.
Isaw a guy asking ten grand for a 440 69 charger, they did not run, did not have the tranny in and the interior was trashed! lol.
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1klink... I never owned many mopars but I was allways warry of em... they were brutal and they had bulletproof drivetrains.
When I was growing up 57 chevies were $200 cars. a 327 (the real best chevy small block) was VERY expensive and hard to come by for a high school kid. big oldsmobiles were stacked up at the wrecking yard... 10.5 to one compression.... allmost 400 cubes and... a lot of em had factory tri power... they were tough as nails too... shave the heads and a decent exaust and no small block short of full on race motor could touch em in a light belair.
plus... it was something to do.
lazs
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the wildest MOPAR engine i,ve ever seen was a wedge with 4 -4 barrels on it.MOPAR just made ugly prettythang cars,thats why i never really liked them,plus as a teenager when i saw the GTO it was all over from there on.
A good friend of mine is selling a 1967 327 ci. with the 202 double humped heads.
And no matter what anybody says there really isn,t nothin that will out run a ROCKET motor.
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Ros, Nobody mentioned the fact that the 65 GTO has the Worse stopping distance of any car. The factory brakes with the single resivior brake is suicidal. My brother installed ABS in his 65' with disc brakes. The problem he has now is a wider turning radius.
My 65' Convertible and HT both have power drum brakes. I have the zinc pads with the cut "cooling groove" Thats the best I can do for now. I always have to allow a few extra car lengths when driving, and have to deal with the brake peddle getting "mushy" after they get hot. Oh well, until I can switch it to disc, I'll just have to suffer:)
NUTTZ
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the 68-72 A ,F body discs and backing plates w/ calibres are a bolt on
you dont even have to change the spindles if ya dont want to ..(the difference is in the cotter pin hole clocking) then ya just add a fresh 2 cyl master and the porpotioning valve ... they sell the change over new for around 450-500
ive got used several sets laying around the shop (i'll toss a $ figure at ya if your interested )
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my 69 camino has factory power disc fronts with good rotors. Adding good pads and rear brake shoes helped a lot as well as bilstein shocks. I am gonna add the ceramic shoed "highway patrol" 11" x 2" drums that are currently for sale... they will fit the goat and work as well as any rear disc.
Chevelles allways handled better than goats but I have all hotchkiss suspension and four link as well as heavy sway bars and the aforementioned bilstiens. The camino has much better weight distribution than either the goat or the regular chevelle so it handles pretty sweet.
lazs
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First brand new car I purchased was a 1969 Road Runner.
Vitamin C orange, 4 spd 383 cu. in. 335 hp.
Wish I still had it.
Meep Meep.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
67 Ford Galaxy 500 XL with a dual 4bbl 427 engine w/side oilers.
I knew a girl in high school who owned one and a convertible at that. Rare car, with an even rarer engine.
And one hot-rod SOB that was, too. Wow. The Ford 427 cammer was amazing.
culero
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Originally posted by Hajo
First brand new car I purchased was a 1969 Road Runner.
Vitamin C orange, 4 spd 383 cu. in. 335 hp.
Wish I still had it.
Meep Meep.
Buddy of mine in high school had one. Being a rich boy, he did what rich boys can do - ordered it new, had it shipped to a speed shop in San Antonio, and spent $6,000 on what they did there before he ever saw it (remember, 1969...lotsa $$$ that).
He had it equipped with a set of 6 Cragar SS mags, 4 with street tires for everyday use, 2 with street slicks for when he wanted to run. Friggin car would get the front tires over a foot in the air off the line with the slicks on, stock 426 Hemi's were no competition.
He replaced it 2 years later with an orange 442 W30, and that was another story....
We had fun skipping school and riding around town, that's for sure ;)
culero (then there was the guy whose Dad owned the Dodge dealer, and let him drive whatever he wanted)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
but what does it mean?
Nilsen MOPAR was (actually, still is) Chrysler Corporation's brand name replacement parts branch, much like Motorcraft is to Ford nowadays. People adopted it eons ago as a nickname for Chrysler Corporation cars.
culero
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Sometime in the mid to late 1930's Chrysler Corporation looked into consolidating the parts divisions of all their brands -- Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, DeSoto, Imperial etc. -- into one division.
Thus was created the Chrysler Corporation Motor Parts division, From then on, parts used on ANY of the Chrysler Corporation marques came in boxes branded with the Chrysler Motor Parts division's logo: MOtor PARts).
(http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/images/mlogos2.jpg)
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Had a 67 Mustang with a .60 bored over 289.Now I know the 289 is NOT concidered a muscle engine but they were the toughest block made.Ran an Edelbrock intake manifold and an MSD ignition with the holo distributor.Holly 750 double pumper and a hot cam.It was doing 350 horses on paper and it did that on the street too :) Damn thing handeled for crap at speed tho....sigh.