Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: nirvana on March 21, 2005, 05:07:37 PM
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Recently my family has come upon a pure breed German SHepard puppy but we are in need of some help. He is constantly getting out of his 20 inch high day kennel we have set up in the kitchen and in doing so he is getting into things and causing havoc. Along with this he is chewing/knawing on things constantly as i'm sure puppies do with their teeth coming in and stuff. He is also willing to go to the bathroom anywhere at anytime including when someone is standing watching him as he did today. Our patience is running short, well at least my sister's and mine because we are the ones cleaning all of this up so any advice on house breaking or getting him to STOP when told to do so would be kindly appreciated.
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you need a professional dog trainer and quick.
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er... you considered TRAINING the dog?
they dont learn by themselves where they can poop you know.
When i was a kid I trained my dogs where they had to relieve themselves by taking a scoop of their feces, putting it where they SHOULD be taking their dumps, grabbing the dog from behind the ears and making his face look at the pile of crap and tapping my finger at the floor next to the crap. After that if you catch him taking a dump somewhere else, roll up a newspaper, slap the offender on the rump and snout , make sure he sees you scoop up the crap and repeat the above mentioned procedure.
Repeated that several times a day for a bout a week... dog learned quick and for the rest of his life pooped in the designated spot.
as far as chewing and gnawing... thats normal for young pups.. nothing you can do about it other than give him toys to chew (buy the toys that have bacon flavor or bacon-scented material).
If the dog does that when hes almost full grown (aka not a fist-sized puppy) then thats behavioural... use ultra hot spicy sauce and smear the stuff he chews on with it... after a few weeks the dog wont come near it ...ever again.
Important note though.. dont ever give a dog beer. Its not good for them and more importantly, its less beer for YOU. ;) :aok
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Wow that was quick thanks OIO I think i'll try that.:aok
I heard dogs respond to stern shouts of "NO" or just by hearing the anger in your voice aparently he doens't listen. Oh and we had a "profesional" trainer come to our house on Sunday (I wasn't awake to see her in action my parents were) but it seems to have done nothing.
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no prob man. I had seven dogs back home, worked with them all. Boxers, labradors, dalmatians (ironically the dalmatian LIKED the hot sauce.. I had to use lots of vinegar on it instead) and their mixed breed (boxer+labrador is a BEAUTIFUL dog hybrid.. ill try to dig up a pic for you) pups.
Dogs do respond to stern voices.. but that depends lots on the dog itself. If the dog respects you a word alone is enough... if the dog thinks youre the big fat idiot that feeds him and picks up his crap then your words will mean nothing to him.
It may sound a bit inhumane but I think dogs respect you more if you use physical punishment (I dont mean beat him up, the newspaper slap works fine). After a year or so you can switch to words and you'll be set.
When i was like 8 my dad would slap the boxer when she did something wrong.. then id go to the boxer and play with her... wrong message. dog thinks big guy thinks its bad, little guy its ok. So dog ends up crapping in the right place only when big guy is around. So if you have kids keep em away from the dog for an hour or so after you 'deploy' the newspaper ;)
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The Dog is a pack animal. You guys are the pack. Each pack has one Alpha usualy male, and one dog at the bottom of the pecking order. It is up to you guys to identify the Alpha and make sure the Dog obeys him or her. Then the rest of you need to assert your dominance. Stern words, facial expressions, constancy and occasionaly physical dominance are the way to do it. Leave it too long and your dog will be the Alpha and rule you guys.
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We crate trained our last lab.
Dogs dont like to go to the can were they sleep.
They key here is with pups to take them outside often.
She got house broken from Crate training, and being taken outside 4 times a night lol.
Some dogs love to chew and never grow out of it. Punish them if they chew ANYTHING but the chewtoys.
I am with OIO You need use a bit of force on ocasion with some dogs, not beating them by a good swap to the rear and a raised voice lets them know. Be consistant.
Pay lots of atention to them as well.
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How old is the pup?
When housebreaking a pup, take them out to do their business immediately
1. Whenever they wake up from a nap
2. Whenever they finish eating
Stay out there with him, encourage him with that "special word" ... "business", "potty".. whatever you choose. Praise him when he'd done, then take him back inside. For ease of training and cleanup, take him to the SAME PLACE in the yard every time.
Teething:
Get thee down to Petsmart or Petco and pick up 6-10 of the hollow steamed bones. These are white bones, have no meat on them at all and have a hole down the middle. Get the longest ones they have.
Take them home, stuff about a tablespoon of his canned dog food up into the hole. Just smear it in as far as it will go from each end. Then put them in the freezer. When he starts gnawing on things, get a bone FIRST, go to him, tell him "NO!" while sticking his nose towards what he's chewing. Move him away, out into the middle of the room where there's nothing to chew and give him the frozen bone. The food will keep him working at it for a half hour, the cold will feel good on his gums and he will teeth on something that is no loss to you.
Leave a few "used ones" lying around his area. Reload and refreeze as necessary.
Kennel. Either get an airline dog crate if you really want to keep him boxed in a small area. Otherwise, use a better gate. You're the human; you should be able to devise a containment gate that he can't work around.
Good luck!
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crate in the daytime and at night when they go to bed.
attention when you are present. (they are your friends and loyal servants)
a long walk twice a day...they also LOVE (i cant stress this enough) having a set and reliable pattern. a ROUTINE. if they know its coming soon, they will hold it.
praise over punishment.
with my pups, (german shepards) i fed them a treat each time they asked to go outside. there are times when a swat is good, but rarely and ONLY when they are caught in the act. it should be a shock...not pain. dealing in pain is for sickos. teaching is what it is all about.
you just have to think of things from thier perspective...and remember...you pooped yourself often once and there wasnt a thing you could do.
should they be any smarter than you were at thier age?
: )
hope this helps.
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First off, there are tons of things you can do to assert dominance and train your dog without ever having to give them so much as a swat. How?? Read on :)
The best thing you can do is to crate train him. Buy a crate that will be big enough for him to fit in when he's grown and keep him in there when you're not around. It sounds mean, but dogs, pups especially, enjoy having a place that they can call their own to get away from everything. Do a google search on crate training and you'll find tons of info on it. Just make sure that as soon as you take him out of his crate the first place he goes is outside. As soon as he does his business outside make a big fuss over it. Act like a fool, anything to get him excited about what he just did! If you can catch him weeing inside, give him a stern No! and then rush him outdoors. If he finishes his business outside, make a big deal of it! When it's time to go back to the crate he will probably whine and howl, but it's essential that you just ignore him. With time he'll figure out that being noisy isn't going to get him anywhere. Also, make sure he has access to his crate even when he's not in it. Some dogs will prefer to get away to their crate for a while even when they're family is around.
Another thing is to take him out way more than you think he needs it. My pup went out every hour until he was completely housebroken. It's much easier to train them to go outside than it is to break them of going inside. Go outside often and keep him in the crate when you're not around.
German Shepherds are herding dogs and are usually very high energy. They're bred to run all day long and out-think a flock of sheep. If you don't find something for them to do, they'll find something on their own and you probably won't like it! Play lots of games, go for lots of walks, just do your best to make sure he's tired. If you can keep his mind busy and his body tired you'll have a lot easier time of the puppy stages.
For chewing, just keep a whole bunch of toys around, but don't leave them all out at one time. Keep three or four out at a time and throw in a different one every now and then. If he starts chewing on something he shouldn't, give him a stern No! and then put an appropriate toy in his mouth and praise when he starts to play. Look for a Kong at your local pet store. They're beehive shaped pieces of rubber that you can stuff with treats. Fill it up with dog food and plug the end with some peanut butter. He'll have to get the PB off and then roll the Kong around to get at the rest of the food. This kept my Collie pup entertained for a good half hour.
As soon as he's settled in and comfortable you'll want to look at clicker training. It's too involved to really get into in a post, but it really does work wonders. You'll start reading about it and think "Man, this is some really hokey crap", but trust me, it works wonders on training a dog quickly.
Finally about dominance. It's important that your pup sees you as the pack leader. There's several ways you can do this. The pack leader controls access to anything good. Food, choice place to sit, attention, water, etc. If you find him in your favorite chair, tell him "off" and then move him. If he tries to jump back up, repeat "off" and move him again. It'll take a few tries, but he'll get it. You can also do a long "down, stay." It's basically keeping the dog laying down at your side until you release him. He'll need to know "down" and "stay" before you could do this of course. Extend the length of the "down, stay" until he can do it for 30 minutes. That's the best non-confrontational way to teach a dog his place in the pack. If that doesn't work, you can use the "alpha roll." If you catch him doing something he shouldn't and he doesn't respond to a stern voice, flip him over on his side and hold him there with pressure just behind his jaw. Make sure you keep a hand available to hold his body down as well. He will flail about and give you a fit for a while, but then he'll sigh and just give up. At that point you can let him back up. Be careful with this though, if you don't do it right you could get bit.
Dog training is something that I love. I've been working with my dogs (2 collies and a border collie) on agility and herding for quite a while now. There's a lot to learn, but it's real satisfying to get it right! Agility is something you may want to think about for your pup as well. If you have any more questions just feel free to ask.
Cougar
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One last thing, make sure you're giving him a good quality puppy food. Nutro is the brand I recommend. The cheaper foods are full of fillers and just get pooped out. A quality food will give better nutrition and also produce less crap. ;) The nutrition is really important for the German Shepherds at the growth stages because they are very prone to hip dysplasia.
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My personal solution is to only adopt older dogs...
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I find if you shoot at animals they learn real quick.
-SW
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Was having a discussion on "positive only" training with a clicker advocate.
The guy is very nice and very smart. I asked him if any Labs had titled at any level using positive only and/or/with clicker and he said, to his knowledge, no. He also said that folks were trying.
I find that sort of interesting as Junior Hunter is not a very difficult test for a well-bred Lab.
I do intend to look into clicker, but my sked is just way overfull.
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ok I will try what you guys have recommened my parents are soft so they use the kitchen kennel so he doesn't whine (doesn't like to be alone) but he goes in a smaller one at night next to my parents bed. I have tried to hold him down but I guess I will try to get close to his jaw next time. Walks seem to be a must I guess every day after school will be his time for a walk, other dogs love to walk too though:( . See if I can get my sister into the walking mode too so they others don't feel left out. I was taught (by our smaller dog) that hitting with news papers will cause resentment but she was abused as a pup so that could be why. Anyway I think i'll go and take him for a walk before it gets too dark. Would any of you guys know if an injury (Other dog bit his ear last night:( ) would cause the ear to not stand up? Seems to be a major cause of concern for my step dad.
Thanks for all the info been helping me:aok
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What's about 3 notches below "junior hunter". I'm thinking about entering Bradley in the "senior face licker" or "outstanding belly rub" division.
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ah well theres a difference between being beaten the snot out of with a newspaper and a slap in the butt and nose.
Anywho, here's a pic of the boxer+labrador I was telling you about.
Yago (http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=222914)
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Buy an Akita.
My female pissed once in the house and after I showed her where to go she was trained.
Akitas will only crap in one area of the yard or waite till you take them walking then they become crap machines LOL.
We used the crate on her for a short while untill we noticed that she had chewed her way thru the 1/8th inch thick bars.
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from the chewing and willingness to use the floor as a toilet right in front of you, I'd guess he's bored as hell.
puppies (and especially active dogs like Shepard's) require a lot of interaction in the first 10 months or so, it won't be so demanding as they get older and gets more patients but if they don't get the attention they need they'll find a way to get noticed.
I don't know the details of your situation, but setting up a pen in the kitchen screams to me that you likely don't have the time to or experience to devote to that kind of dog. Shepard's are wonderful dogs but no matter how good your intentions, a badly trained or untrained one is big and dangerous, and very capable of doing damage.
all that aside heres a couple of basics on dogs (the principles are also handy when you get kids. IMO nobody should raise kids until they can raise a dog to adulthood that comes when called, sits or stays when told to, heels without a leash, and doesn't bark all night, piss on the floor or hump your leg. )
1. any rules that you will ever have for the dog apply from day one. you are more patient with them when they are younger, but all rules apply. they get privileges and more trust, not new rules, as they mature.
you aren't going to have a dog that is eager to learn if every time he gets a lesson down you just show him something new he's not allowed to do. it may be cute when the little puppy tries tow you with the leash, it's not nearly so cute when he tops lbs (just like those idiots that think it's cute when a toddler curses, and then gets embarrassed and angry when he's 8 years old and says something inappropriate).
2. know something about the breed you are getting and if they will fit into your life for a reason that is more thought out than "I've always wanted one and think they are just the coolest breed"
many breeds have some tendencies 'hardwired' into their personality. you can be an excellent and dedicated trainer, but your not likely to make much of a dent in stopping a collie from rounding up other animals, or making a Dalmatian sit still and relax. many behaviors have been bred into them for generations, don't try to fight this, learn about the breeds and find one thats peculiarities are a plus for your lifestyle and expectations.
3. the 'pack mentality' approach to teaching a dog his place is very helpful in hounds, working dogs and intense or aggressive dogs (like rotts). but unless you have some sort improper aggressiveness (growling or snapping at the kids) it's not really helpful with most companion dogs.
4. in most cases dogs want nothing more in life than to make you happy. and most dogs that fall short of that do it because the have no idea what you want them to do. most good professional dog trainers want the owner to be there. what they don't tell you is that that is because they aren't really training the dog, their training you how to own a dog.
you need to be clear with your signals, don't let your mood effect how you respond to your dog, and never forget that they are always learning, but not always what you think you are teaching.
what I mean is that if you let unacceptable behavior go uncorrected just one time, you've taught them that it is sometimes exceptable. you are going to be tested (as they try and see if todays a good day to do it again) many, many times and correct them many, many times to get them to forget that other lesson.
unlearning takes much longer than learning.
5. the best way to teach a dog good behavior is to set up a situation where the dog can't help but do what you want, and then heap them with praise and attention. this is way more effective then trying to punish bad behavior, since they often aren't sure exactly what part of the behavior got them punished. (should they avoid you when you get home from work because you're just always mad and mean when you get home? or does your mood have something to do with the meal he made out of the trash-cans 6 hours ago?)
6. don't get a dog and then start thinking about when you are going to get the time to train him. you should already have a plan and be prepared before you ever bring him home.
for instance I almost always prefer to get new pups in late spring. the weather is nice, you can leave the doors open and you and the puppy can be outside comfortably all day if you want.
first thing I take the pup to a corner of the yard, set him down to play and lie down diagonally and play with them. you've effectively kept him in the corner but he doesn't feel trapped and is getting all the attention he craves.
after he relieves himself a few times you get up and expand the play area a bit, go along with him as he explores the yard. let him have a little more room to roam around but not to much all at once. wait until he's relieved himself a few more times before you expand the area. until you've thoroughly explored the yard (I'm talking about hours here. this isn't something you do and then it's done, it's a approach to living with your dog. no scolding, just play, setting him up where he can only do the right thing, and praising him when he does)
after awhile you can go in the house but leave the door open. except when you are trying to undo problems from bad training or lack of training, the dog will prefer to go to the same area to relieve himself. if you set him up to know nowhere else but the yard for relieving himself, and don't block his access (until the rule are more clear and he has more bladder control) to the yard with closed doors or harsh winter weather, they'd much rather go outside.
not all dogs are going to be perfect in this area but it's way more effective than the "rub his face in the mess and hit him on the way out the door mentality".
my chow-pit mix will be 15 yrs old this spring. she's only made a mess of my floor one time when she was extremely sick and a broken car left her spending a whole day left in the house. we don't even have to shovel the yard, for the last 15 years she has consistently gone back to that same corner of the yard where I first took her when I brought her home. at one point she actually attacked my brothers dog while he was visiting because it crapped in the middle of the yard (and she stepped in it) instead of putting it in the corner like a civilized dog.
wow, looking back thats a huge wall of text and it doesn't even scratch the surface. I hope there's something in there that can help you.
I hope anybody else who's thinking about getting a dog changes up the order a bit and asks the questions and learns what they need to know before getting the dog. if you get the dog before the plan you are left with a lot of un-teaching to do before you can even really begin it's training.
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Originally posted by Toad
Was having a discussion on "positive only" training with a clicker advocate.
The guy is very nice and very smart. I asked him if any Labs had titled at any level using positive only and/or/with clicker and he said, to his knowledge, no. He also said that folks were trying.
I find that sort of interesting as Junior Hunter is not a very difficult test for a well-bred Lab.
I do intend to look into clicker, but my sked is just way overfull.
Toad, I once had a Lab that was the best in-field dog I've ever seen. And, I never had to punish her physically in order to bring her to that state of training. I used demonstration and praise for compliance/scorn for disobediance as my training SOP (admittedly with considerable patience).
But what took her from 90% obedient to 100% was a life lesson supplied by nature :)
I used to enjoy going out at night with a couple of friends and our dogs to hunt varmints - jackrabbits and coyotes mainly. We used spotlights, .22 rifles for short to intermediate range, 5.5-6mm rifles for longer ranges. We set the dogs on anything wounded but not killed (usually difficult running/bounding targets) and sometimes allowed the dogs to engage in pursuit without shooting first. They loved every opportunity, of course, but we as a team (man/dog) were always happiest with the instances where they brought quarry to bay for a close range coup de grace kill.
Anyway, Sheba as I said was pretty damned good, but did have a tendency to allow excitement to overcome her enough that she'd ignore a command to disengage and return to truck.
Then, one night, Scott (my hunting buddy) shouted "STOP" as I was driving. I did, and he told the dogs "GET 'EM". They went :)
Then I saw that the prey was a skunk.
After telling Scott what a dumbprettythang he was, I immediately endeavored to call the dogs off. Scott's dog ignored me completely. Sheba turned her head, looked at me, looked at Scott's dog still running, and decided "Fuggit, Daddy, I'm on a Mission From God". She followed in close pursuit.
Luckily she didn't close Scott's dog, so it took the brunt of the headon shot the skunk delivered. The odor immediately made Sheba reconsider the fact that perhaps Daddy had a point, and that returning to the truck was the WTG. She did.
I heaped scorn on her, refused to allow her to mount the truck, and made her follow me home (not a cruel thing, our regular thrice weekly exercise session was a five-mile run by her following me on my motorcycle for @ 15-20 mph, she was a born running fool).
Once home, I chained her under shelter, away from the house (she lived inside with me) and left her with food, water, and no attention for 2 days.
When I finally went to her, bathed her with tomato juice, and allowed her back in the house, she was visibly relieved.
And she never ever failed to instantly obey a command for the rest of her life :)
culero (those were the days, and her pups were as good)
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you evil man. you tortured the dog by denying it your beloved company for TWO days.
If I were the dog id've preffered the slap on my snout.
;) :p
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I second what cougar said about the alpha roll. I used that technique with our beagle. He would drop and roll on his side when he heard a stern NO. It saved his life once, chasing a rabbit he was running for the road, my mother shouted NO to him and he dropped to the ground, a second later the rabbit was pancaked on the road by a cement truck. I have no doubt that if he hadn't listened he would be burried in the back yard at my parents house.
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Originally posted by OIO
Important note though.. dont ever give a dog beer. Its not good for them and more importantly, its less beer for YOU. ;) :aok
My parent's Lhasa Apso has drunk a beer a day for the last .. 12 years? He's around 130 in dog years. Will not drink when my dad is out of town. Takes his job of protecting the house very seriously. 1 1/2 sedatives and still mean enough to wake up and attack the groomers. It takes sedatives, myself with the shears, and my 270 pound dad to groom him ourselves. Best dog we've ever owned.
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Can I say i'm $15 and had nothing to do with the planning? If it was my choice we would've gotten it at the end of the school year when I could be home all day with him but I can't. Thanks for the info again guys it's helped a good bit.
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Dogs lick themselves clean.
Use his conveniently soft fluffy fur to clean up the mess, tell him 'No!' and put him outside till he cleans himself up.
Harsh. but works a charm.
He may start eyeing your jugular funny though.
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Originally posted by nirvana
ok I will try what you guys have recommened my parents are soft so they use the kitchen kennel so he doesn't whine (doesn't like to be alone) but he goes in a smaller one at night next to my parents bed. I have tried to hold him down but I guess I will try to get close to his jaw next time. Walks seem to be a must I guess every day after school will be his time for a walk, other dogs love to walk too though:( . See if I can get my sister into the walking mode too so they others don't feel left out. I was taught (by our smaller dog) that hitting with news papers will cause resentment but she was abused as a pup so that could be why. Anyway I think i'll go and take him for a walk before it gets too dark. Would any of you guys know if an injury (Other dog bit his ear last night:( ) would cause the ear to not stand up? Seems to be a major cause of concern for my step dad.
Thanks for all the info been helping me:aok
I'm on my 4th pure German Shepherd now, Hunter is 5 months old and his right ear is just standing up. They should be up by 6 to eight months but they can be a bit lazy and floppy until 12 months.
Try not to pet the ears or pull on them to allow the cartilage to stiffen. I needed to cut a spoon shaped piece from a plastic lid (cool whip works well) and after cleaning the ear well taping this in side as a brace can work. Ask your vet or a good breeder.
Here are some pics from 3 months old he will be very large (over 100 lbs) he is a German German Shepherd long hair from a full German blood line.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/57_1111583674_aut_4715.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/57_1111583633_aut_4723.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/57_1111583496_aut_4705.jpg)
Note the reading material on the table
This is the Breeder we got him from
http://www.4GSD.com
Crate trained all four, longest house breaking was 4 weeks
Read all you can on dog training and German Shepherds you can they deserve it.
Best dogs going IMHO but they NEED to learn and to be an active part of the family, do not neglect him or you will have a large frustrated bored smart dog and that's not going to be good.
This is Kayla last year on a trip to family for Christmas, she does have the life. She is 10 in the pic and has only eaten Nutro for food from day one. Coat is like mink.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_57_1058814448.jpg)
When I die I want to come back as my dog, they have the life.
Take care.