Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Pongo on March 23, 2005, 06:05:23 PM

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Pongo on March 23, 2005, 06:05:23 PM

Dont know if the results every made it back here.
He will never command a boat again.
Sounds fair. (http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.aspx?re=B92F52FC-451F-404A-8AF5-3EFFD1D0B5C2)

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Chairboy on March 23, 2005, 06:20:10 PM

That....  sucks.  The whole situation.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: killnu on March 23, 2005, 06:34:11 PM

as a current submariner, that definitely sux.:(

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: SunTracker on March 23, 2005, 06:56:16 PM

Theres two places you dont goof off, underwater and in the air.  

Apparently this accident was preventable, and due to some people not doing their jobs, a submariner was killed.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Chairboy on March 23, 2005, 07:44:35 PM

That...  may be an oversimplification.  I think it's clear that nobody 'goofed off'.  The evidence suggests that's an unfair, and inaccurate assessment.  Here's my read:  

1. The US Navy provided charts with bad data.
2. Crew uses the data provided to drive the boat, boat crashes.
3. US Navy brass says: "omfg!!!" then begins working on accountabillity minimalization plan.
4. Result: "Well, we notice that your charts (for your ship, built in 1981) are, uh, missing some Notices to Seamen published in the 1960s that suggest there might be something wrong there.  Sure, we gave you bad charts, but...  you should really have known somehow."

The only real area where someone messed up is, when they did a sounding earlier and got a return that was shallower then expected.  Mayhaps they should have begun not trusting their maps then?  Tough call, especially when you're ingrained to so all your troubleshooting based on finding your location, because your maps are a known accuracy.

Finally, the most important:
5. The captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship.

Just because he didn't MAKE this happen, and most likely could not have prevented it from happening through any reasonable excercise of his command authority doesn't change the fact that a military commander is, in the end, responsible for everything on his ship.

Hence, this situation sucks.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Gunslinger on March 23, 2005, 08:15:12 PM

Quote

Three other enlisted men, all members of the San Francisco navigation team, were demoted one rank, one of them from electronics technician 1st class to electronics technician 2nd class, and two others from 2nd class to 3rd class.

This is what kinda of ticks me off.  Yes this crew is responsible for the Navigation but it seems like they are held to a higher standard than the officers with all the demotions.

Most of them will probably not be allowed to re-enlist thus ending their carreers.  The officers OTOH may never command but might well be able to serve 20 and retire.  

I admit I am ignorant of submarine operations and this may be standard practice in this type of situation.

I can only see this if the maps are updated like our technical orders that we use for mait.  We recieve TO pages that have changes in them and are required to update them.  If these guys ignored those changes and were using outdated maps then yes it seems like all the NCOs in the section should be held accountable.  Just seems like the enlisted guys here are getting the shaft.

PS TY pongo for the update.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: SunTracker on March 23, 2005, 08:18:53 PM

I dont think its that lop-sided Chairboy.  The first thing they teach you in oceanography is that only 5% of the sea floor has been studied.  I think the Captain knew that there were uncharted sea mounts in the ocean.  And why hadnt he checked to see if his charts had been updated?

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Swager on March 23, 2005, 08:32:13 PM

Well this totally blows.  Freakin Navy always has to blame someone when something goes wrong.  The sailors have to have faith in their charts, otherwise they couldn't go anywhere.  

This was an accident with noone to blame.  There are submarine sailors being found guilty for doing nothing but their job.  Being on a submarine is always a risk and it is hazardous. One knows that when they volenteer.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: lasersailor184 on March 23, 2005, 09:20:03 PM

I definately feel sorry for those guys.  Sometimes **** just happens and you have to accept it.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Sandman on March 23, 2005, 09:42:01 PM

Hmmm...

Quote

The punishments, and the lines of questioning, seem to support claims by Navy sources last month that the submarine had not updated its charts with notices to mariners, some dating back to the 1960s and some made as recently as last year, that would indicate a seamount in an area where the water was supposed to be several thousand feet deep.

They were complacent and they were lucky they got away with just NJP.

Mistakes like this are completely avoidable  and this could have been.. hell should have been corrected.

I wouldn't chalk this accident as **** happens. The crew was negligent.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Gunslinger on March 23, 2005, 10:07:36 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm...




They were complacent and they were lucky they got away with just NJP.

Mistakes like this are completely avoidable  and this could have been.. hell should have been corrected.

I wouldn't chalk this accident as **** happens. The crew was negligent.

So am I reading this right that the nav section could have updated their maps but failed to?

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Sandman on March 23, 2005, 10:28:44 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger
So am I reading this right that the nav section could have updated their maps but failed to?

That's my impression.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Maverick on March 23, 2005, 10:46:01 PM

I concur as there is a statement in the article that there was an update in the last few months that showed the mountain. The charts hdn't been updated for several years in that sub the way I read it. That is an egregious fault on the CO, XO, Navigator(s) side. Not having the current updates when they are available is negligence. Doing it through NJP was less painful and costly to those invilved. The CO was shuffled to a end of career position and "invited" to retire the way the article sounded.

The Officers careers are toast. I doubt that any of the junior officers will see a promotion and be selected for eraly seperation when they get passed over. The enlisted folks can llikely salvage a career except for those with a permanent leter in their record. They will never see much in the way of decent assignments and possibly have a bar to reinlistment. Certainly they are lilely to need a new MOS to continue. I doubt any sub will want them.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: rpm on March 23, 2005, 11:29:28 PM

I said it the day it happened. Grounding a ship will end your Navy career 99.9% of the time. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: JB73 on March 23, 2005, 11:41:12 PM

Quote

Please Note:
Registration is now required to access articles on TheDay.com that are one (1) day old to one (1) week. News articles written by Day staff after one (1) week will require purchasing.
The article that you are trying to read - "Six Members Of Sub Crew Punished For Pacific Crash", published on 3/23/2005 - falls beyond that limitation

notice posting date of my reply:

03-23-2005 11:41 PM

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Sandman on March 23, 2005, 11:45:27 PM

Pffft... the ultra melon that came up with the  "read today for free but access the archive for a fee" business model oughta be gutted like a fish.

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Dinger on March 24, 2005, 12:07:54 AM

mmmm.... fish...

http://www.bugmenot.com/

now in a handy Firefox plugin!

Title: Remember that LA class sub that hit a mountain?
Post by: Pongo on March 24, 2005, 02:23:51 AM

Still makes you wonder how nimitz got away with grounding a ship.