Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: KCDitto on March 25, 2005, 01:35:57 AM

Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: KCDitto on March 25, 2005, 01:35:57 AM
SHeeeeesh

You can even go up anymore with out seeing those dam planes all over the place now.


Change the name of the game to La7's high

The damn 3 cannon version was not even in combat until march of 45 for crying out loud.

not only that but internal cockpit temps were at 104 and it suffered from exhaust gasses in the cockpit. it also had a short range .

I went out and got a book on this plane, Yes it was a great plane and could out perform the FW's and out run the 109's but it had problems. It also suffered from poorly trained ground crews.

I was surprised to see that the spar was made out of metal intead of wood as I had thougt.

But beeing a late war aircraft and it performance so exceptional in the game, it needs to be perked   or atleast the 3 cannon version perked. Or more and more players ore going to get fed up and start flying it and then it will become  

La7's HIGH
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Cooley on March 25, 2005, 01:40:27 AM
^ You may have won a prize for the 1,000th thread started regarding the lala,,not sure, but im sure these guys below me will let ya know...:D

Just give it two guns, that should do the trick
or perk it

and discount the spit 14 perk tag a bit please
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Oleg on March 25, 2005, 01:53:48 AM
You guys just possessed by that 3-guns La7 :rolleyes:
There no big difference between 2x20mm and 3x20mm. Like the somebody said: who cannot hit with four guns will miss with eight.

P.S. Perk all late war planes, please ;)
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Howitzer on March 25, 2005, 01:58:04 AM
Quote
I went out and got a book on this plane, Yes it was a great plane and could out perform the FW's and out run the 109's but it had problems. It also suffered from poorly trained ground crews.


Umm we don't have ground crews in AH...   PERK THE GROUND CREWS!!!
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: o0Stream140o on March 25, 2005, 02:52:28 AM
Take a P-40 out and get that LA-7... works everytime.


(http://www.virtualcheckertails.com/Sig4.gif)
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: eilif on March 25, 2005, 03:11:00 AM
no better way to do it ;0
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: aztec on March 25, 2005, 04:43:30 AM
Well the C-Hog was perked as a result of mass whining...going on that theory it's just a matter of time for the LA7.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: eilif on March 25, 2005, 04:46:32 AM
who cares, once tod is out perks wont mean anything.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: JB73 on March 25, 2005, 08:23:28 AM
what do people care about the 3 cannon opposed to the 2 cannon?

realistically you will get better performance from the 2 cannon ammo load because of the decreased weight....


the effect in small, so in AH people take the more ammo (small ammount anyway) because like me thay can't shoot.



give up the whole "3 cannon" argumnet, it is an ammo loadout in the game, not an entirely different plane you dolts
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Furball on March 25, 2005, 08:40:24 AM
LA7
109G-10
Fw190D-9

possibly P-51D

Should all be perked, all late war uber versions of aircraft we already have in game.

Just like the perked Spit XIV, Tempest and F4U-4
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: JB73 on March 25, 2005, 08:53:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
LA7
109G-10
Fw190D-9

possibly P-51D

Should all be perked, all late war uber versions of aircraft we already have in game.

Just like the perked Spit XIV, Tempest and F4U-4
then no non-perked plane with catch the uber-quad hizooka typhoon

where does it end?

you can't perk everything.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 25, 2005, 08:54:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
LA7
109G-10
Fw190D-9

possibly P-51D

Should all be perked, all late war uber versions of aircraft we already have in game.

Just like the perked Spit XIV, Tempest and F4U-4


Yanno I could buy into this arguement.
Perk the high end version of each plane a nominal perk cost like the C-hog. (anyone who cant afford a C-Hog needs to spend more time in the Training arena)

Course none of this would effect me much as I only rarely fly the high end planes let alone perked ones
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Tilt on March 25, 2005, 09:04:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JB73


realistically you will get better performance from the 2 cannon ammo load because of the decreased weight....



 2  x shvak weighed 42Kg each = 84Kg

 3 x B20 weighed 25kg each = 75 kg

In fact the 3 cannon had ammo box/belt room for 170 rnds per gun but rarely used it mainly loading 130 to 150 rnds per gun.

I do not know the total weight of a 20 x 99 round and shell. but if it was 1.5  the weight of the projectile (97 grams) @ 150 grams then the 9kg saving between the 2 x Svak and the 3 x b20 would allow an additional  60 rounds.

I think we can assume that the weight of a 3 x b20 @ 150 rpg is pretty much the same as a 2 x Svak at 200 rpg.

re the 3 cannon advantage.

As a very regular La7 pilot of average capability I can say that the 3 cannon is a significant benefit over the 2 cannon.

Its the difference between several kills and  many assists.

Edit

There is another reason why the two ac may be split in future patches. HTC are vastly improving the object  shape accuracy as they upgrade each ac. Exentually they will come to the La7 and the fuselage covers over the cannon are quite different for the 2  and 3 cannon versions.

This would be the time to split the La7 into eg La7_44 and La7_45
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Magoo on March 25, 2005, 10:12:26 AM
Quote
you can't perk everything.


Oh God, here we go again...
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: AWMac on March 25, 2005, 10:44:55 AM
A Whine has been Recorded.

Waaaaaaaa....... Waaaaaaaa.....   Whaaaaaaaaaa....

Yaaaa Just Gottaaaaaaa perk da LaLaaaaa......



:rolleyes:
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Longdist on March 25, 2005, 10:50:21 AM
Hunt them in a P-40, they're suckers for it and it works every time.  The other alturnitive is to just through a rock.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Pongo on March 25, 2005, 10:51:54 AM
Yup. lets get perked load outs so the La7 B20 can follow the F4u Hizooka into a light perk status where it belongs.

Also the performance we have on the La7 is near optimal, in an aircraft that was more prone to being sub optimal then most.

Anyone that says the 2 guns is the same as the 3 guns doesnt know much about how fighters work.  It has 50% more weight of fire. 50% more lethality.
When you are improving something 50% at no cost to the real perfomance of the plane its a pretty big deal.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: rod367th on March 25, 2005, 10:55:36 AM
if the la7 was such a bad plane how come it wup the 2 p51's that it fought in ww2. 51's had alt and E advantage, while la7 pilot didn't fire untill 4 passes were made on him. so I guess it was really bad plane.





 What I'm trying to say in short is its not the plane. Its the pilot But some will whine about guys running away when they are at a disadvantage. While guys like some of you whine about guy running away  aka extending. Lots of us laugh at the guy  that whines. It tells us your on his 6 in a better turn fighter, and Are mad that he's not stupid enough to turn fight you. So you think if you whine others will think guys are afraid of you.  Trust me  your only fooling yourself.




  I for one could care less what  or how others fly. I don't care if others all fly 262's its more fun to kill a 262 with il2 or a20 to the p40. Just more fun to me......................
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Swager on March 25, 2005, 11:08:50 AM
INsider review concurs
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: GunnerCAF on March 25, 2005, 11:27:18 AM
If you can deal with LA7s, you need some training.  Ask the trainer about ENERGY, and you will learn the ways to keep out of the sights of LA7s.

The LA7 is fast, but if you retain your energy, you can get out of it's range even with planes that have a slower top speed.  LA7s have a small ammo load, and they have cannons.  They are not going to be doing much spraying at long distance, so keep out of their range.

You will mostly find LA7s in close defence of an enemy fields at low altitudes.  

If you hate them so much, take this information and find a way to hunt them down and kill them.   This is a game.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: humble on March 25, 2005, 11:31:42 AM
I'm constantly amazed at how often you hear the "perk this..." whine. Yes the la-7 is an outstanding airplane, however its got its limitations in both range and performance at higher alts. Additionally its only a marginally better performer than the La-5 overall.

1 on 1 the lala isnt any better than the guy flying it. In a horde its just one of a bunch of fast planes. The D-9, tiffie, G-10 and pony all have similiar speed. The pony & G-10 can E/angles fight well in good hands and the tiffie has the ability to reach out and ruin your day at ~800 or more....

Personally the hurricane is the biggest problem in the game:)...basically just a HO machine in the hands of 90% of those who fly it....things a flying porcupine:)

If you think the lala's the be all end all then fire one up and go play...
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Magoo on March 25, 2005, 11:45:07 AM
I hate the La7 too, but only because it has such a tiny fuel tank and I go bingo gas before I even think to look at the guage...oh and it hates rudder input at low speeds (too much time in a Jug on my part).

Magoo
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: TheDudeDVant on March 25, 2005, 12:57:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GunnerCAF
If you can deal with LA7s, you need some training.  Ask the trainer about ENERGY, and you will learn the ways to keep out of the sights of LA7s.

The LA7 is fast, but if you retain your energy, you can get out of it's range even with planes that have a slower top speed.  LA7s have a small ammo load, and they have cannons.  They are not going to be doing much spraying at long distance, so keep out of their range.

You will mostly find LA7s in close defence of an enemy fields at low altitudes.  

If you hate them so much, take this information and find a way to hunt them down and kill them.   This is a game.


Im sorry but I have to disagree with most of what you have said here..

 The la7 does not have a small ammo load.. Perhaps medium? But it's guns are extremely leathal..

Also, there is not much in this game that will beat the La7 in an energy fight.. The la7 will simply zoom with or out-zoom any of it's competition..
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Kutt on March 25, 2005, 01:00:01 PM
I think it is a question of perception.

Good pilots know how to wring all of the performance they can out what ever plane they are in. A great P-40 pilot can easily over come a nugget La-7 driver. That can easily be proven.

The perception is that there are alot of La-7's in the air most of the time in the MA. If a plane becomes too numerous I think it is time to perk it.

The reason for the perk is not because it meets certain thresholds of performance. The reason to perk it is to promote the perception of variety in the arena.

Each aircraft brings it's own unique capabilities to a fight. Knowing your enemy and choosing the appropriate tactics is a fun/interesting skill to perfect. If the perception is that you are always fighting the same type of enemy, boredom sets in if you can deal with the threat. Frustration sets in if you can't. Either way it ends up being a negative for all involved.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: wetrat on March 25, 2005, 02:13:28 PM
grats... you're an idiot.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: eilif on March 25, 2005, 02:17:27 PM
i never have problems with la7's, you never find decent sticks behind em anyways, there needs to be some uber planes out there for the meak.  just dont waste time chasing lalas.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Guppy35 on March 25, 2005, 02:33:05 PM
There's something satisfying about chopping down LA7s.

I'm a lousy stick but I'm up 18 kills to 11 deaths vs LA7s in my 38G, and if someone as lousy as me can get the better of em, then most folks should be able to.

I tend to always be low and slow turning on the deck in a furball too, where the LA7s are racing in and out trying to blast me in the face.

I see Niki's just about as often.

Dan/CorkyJr
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: ALF on March 25, 2005, 05:12:37 PM
I refer you to the link to my movie below...entitled NEW LA7 VIDEO....the move is called "Deal with it" :rofl

I actually used to fly the La7 quite regularly(3 years ago), and it was a sweet ride, issue now is the good pilots know its limitations and exploit them very well.  My trip back last month gave me insite into the new balistics and the La7....its one deadly ride....but so are many of the MA planes.

Your in deeper dookie if I fly my P51 or P47 than an La7.....heck dont even think about getting me in a SPit  BWAHAHAHAHA!
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Kutt on March 25, 2005, 05:17:51 PM
It seems to me that the main purpose of perks is to keep a diverse set of planes flying in the arena.

Case in point, when the MA went down a few nights ago and everyone rolled over to the back up arena with free planes, it turned into jet night.

The La-7 isn't unstoppable by any means. I'm a crappy pilot, I fly a 47 usually, and even I manage to break even on them.

Are there too many of them up is the question?

I think there probably are, but it doesn't keep me awake at night. If you are really serious about getting them perked start flying them all the time. Enough people fly them, I think it will go the same way as the C-Hog.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: humble on March 25, 2005, 06:04:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Im sorry but I have to disagree with most of what you have said here..

 The la7 does not have a small ammo load.. Perhaps medium? But it's guns are extremely leathal..

Also, there is not much in this game that will beat the La7 in an energy fight.. The la7 will simply zoom with or out-zoom any of it's competition..


I'd say about 10% of the lala's are a "threat" the other 90% are just other targets (unless of course they're part of a hoard). Very few lala drivers fly them aggressively enough...
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Zazen13 on March 25, 2005, 06:29:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kutt
It seems to me that the main purpose of perks is to keep a diverse set of planes flying in the arena.

Case in point, when the MA went down a few nights ago and everyone rolled over to the back up arena with free planes, it turned into jet night.

The La-7 isn't unstoppable by any means. I'm a crappy pilot, I fly a 47 usually, and even I manage to break even on them.

Are there too many of them up is the question?

I think there probably are, but it doesn't keep me awake at night. If you are really serious about getting them perked start flying them all the time. Enough people fly them, I think it will go the same way as the C-Hog.


That's always been Shane's rationale for flying them, he's just doing his part to get them perked allegedly. ;)

Zazen
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: AKFokerFoder+ on March 25, 2005, 07:47:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by aztec
Well the C-Hog was perked as a result of mass whining...going on that theory it's just a matter of time for the LA7.


And that is the only reason it was perked.  And now it remains perked because of tradition.

So maybe the whiners will get there way with the LA7.

I just wish there were some imperical method for perking, rather than just that it is perked because it is perked.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 25, 2005, 08:31:35 PM
Ditto, the text in your sig pretty much sums up your way of thinking nicely for me.


Edit/PS-Threads like this have gone well beyond GHEY to just plain patheticly old.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Glasses on March 25, 2005, 08:38:08 PM
Perk only the b00bies I say :D
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: SKJohn on March 25, 2005, 09:32:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by humble

1 on 1 the lala isnt any better than the guy flying it.  


I agree.  Instead of perking certain aircraft, we should be perking the pilots!  
We could do something like Monopoly.  Those pilots ranked in, let's say, the top 2000 (makes me safe!) have to pay a certain amount of points to take off.  These points go into a pool.  THen, the pilot who shoots them down, gets  the points in the Perked Pilot Point Pool!

Bring on the P.P.P.P!!!!!!!:D
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: KCDitto on March 26, 2005, 12:00:52 AM
O K

I did not mean to stat a revolution.

My problem is not the plane.  It is hte historical FACT that the 3 cannon version was not avil before the end of the war.

And I do not agree that 2 cannons is as leathal as 3.

The LALA dweebs may turn with you 2 times and when you reverse them they run away and come back and shoot you in the FACE with 3 cannons
 When I try to avoid the HO shot I get hit anyway so now I just point and shoot back!

How about giving us Luftwaffe guys the 109K4.  Perk it   I will still fly it.

sorry for making some of you mad  I was just frustrated from getting shot in the face by every dweeb that flies the La7
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Widewing on March 26, 2005, 12:26:42 AM
LOLOLOL "Get rid of the La-7" Get a grip....

I don't get it... Okay, the La-7 is a great low-level fighter, big deal.

As far as I'm concerned, they are nothing more than targets, with the vast majority of them flown by guys who are no threat unless you are in a coma.

Stop whining about them and learn how to beat them....

My regards,

Widewing
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Stang on March 26, 2005, 01:16:05 AM
P40's pnw joo elgay seven tards!   haha come git it!!

:p
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: simshell on March 26, 2005, 01:28:30 AM
you should be asking is the plane causing the trouble or the 3 cannons


because its not like the world of AH main is going to change alot if you face 1 less cannon on the LA7
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Oleg on March 26, 2005, 01:37:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by KCDitto
How about giving us Luftwaffe guys the 109K4.  Perk it   I will still fly it.


You has it free already, it called 109G10 in AH but it is K4 in fact.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: StarOfAfrica2 on March 26, 2005, 01:51:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by KCDitto
O K

I did not mean to stat a revolution.

My problem is not the plane.  It is hte historical FACT that the 3 cannon version was not avil before the end of the war.

And I do not agree that 2 cannons is as leathal as 3.

The LALA dweebs may turn with you 2 times and when you reverse them they run away and come back and shoot you in the FACE with 3 cannons
 When I try to avoid the HO shot I get hit anyway so now I just point and shoot back!

How about giving us Luftwaffe guys the 109K4.  Perk it   I will still fly it.

sorry for making some of you mad  I was just frustrated from getting shot in the face by every dweeb that flies the La7


You didnt start a revolution.  You joined one.  

2 cannons or 3 cannons, neither is lethal if you cant shoot.  The point is moot however, if HT could perk loadouts with our current setup, dont you think that would have been put in place a long time ago?  

As for face shooters, thats another topic entirely.  Dweebs will be dweebs, and if some of them fly La-7's, just as many fly spits and Tiffies and N1k's and 110's ............... anything they feel like they can get a HO kill with, they will fly.  

You already have a K4.  Its called the Bf 109G10.  Fly it with the 30mm cannon.  You have your K4.

Welcome to the club.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Innominate on March 26, 2005, 02:28:26 AM
The la7 ceased to be a worry for me with the introduction of AH2, which really brought a lot of the la7s disadvantages up.  It's range is abysmal, and it doesnt seem to have the performance gap it used to.

Any pilot who commits to an HO pass is sacrificing the initiative in any following maneuvering. Make a small jink, start a lead turn, and mr HO is now on the defensive.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: KCDitto on March 26, 2005, 10:35:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate
The la7 ceased to be a worry for me with the introduction of AH2, which really brought a lot of the la7s disadvantages up.  It's range is abysmal, and it doesnt seem to have the performance gap it used to.

Any pilot who commits to an HO pass is sacrificing the initiative in any following maneuvering. Make a small jink, start a lead turn, and mr HO is now on the defensive.



Nope  they just run away!
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 10:58:09 AM
Quote
And I do not agree that 2 cannons is as leathal as 3.


mmmk.

So you want a lighter plane to fight, that will turn better and basicly shoot just as well?

Righton.

Keep on b1tchin. :aok
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: SlapShot on March 26, 2005, 11:56:59 AM
Any pilot who commits to an HO pass is sacrificing the initiative in any following maneuvering. Make a small jink, start a lead turn, and mr HO is now on the defensive.

Innom ... some find it is much easier to piss 'n moan.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 01:48:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
mmmk.

So you want a lighter plane to fight, that will turn better and basicly shoot just as well?

Righton.

Keep on b1tchin. :aok


didnt someone else already post the weights of the guns and the 3 B-20's were basically the same as the 2 Shvaks?
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 01:50:29 PM
I would like to see Kweassa's plan for perking the late war rides put in place. I think it would add alot more variety to the MA.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 02:01:37 PM
It takes someone of my genious to see that Extra Cannon+ammo=more weight?
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 02:29:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
It takes someone of my genious to see that Extra Cannon+ammo=more weight?



Ummm read the thread.

2 x shvak weighed 42Kg each = 84Kg

3 x B20 weighed 25kg each = 75 kg

In fact the 3 cannon had ammo box/belt room for 170 rnds per gun but rarely used it mainly loading 130 to 150 rnds per gun.

I do not know the total weight of a 20 x 99 round and shell. but if it was 1.5 the weight of the projectile (97 grams) @ 150 grams then the 9kg saving between the 2 x Svak and the 3 x b20 would allow an additional 60 rounds.

I think we can assume that the weight of a 3 x b20 @ 150 rpg is pretty much the same as a 2 x Svak at 200 rpg.


The 2 Shvak loadout has 50 more rounds per gun than the 3 B-20 loadout does. The 3 B-20 loadout only adds 50 more rounds TOTAL than the Shvak loadout offers. The B-20's are lighter than the Shvaks. The difference in weight is negligble between the 2 loadouts. I have flown both loadouts and if there is any difference in aircraft performance I can't see it. The 3 B-20's however are FAR more lethal than the 2 Shvaks.

So..*genious*....what do ya have to say now? :D
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 03:19:20 PM
Roughly 93 lbs or 42kg(Gun)+(160g(1rnd)*150)= 144lbs

In a fighter plane made of paper and wood, where weight, every last ounce means speed and performance be it gain or loss due to inscrease or decrease in wieght... 144lbs means alot elf.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 03:36:21 PM
The total weights are basically the same Morpheus.

B-20  25kg per gun = 75kg TOTAL

Shvak 42kg per gun = 84kg TOTAL

Then add in 50 more 20mm rounds and the TOTAL weight difference is almost nil.

Quote
Roughly 93 lbs or 42kg(Gun)+(160g(1rnd)*150)= 144lbs


Thats the weight of ONE Shvak plus ammo. But...you need to add 50 more rounds to your equation. You used the weight for the Shvak and the ammo load for a B-20.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: victor on March 26, 2005, 03:41:52 PM
While I'm no expert on the matter ,I''m spending this month learning the advantages/disadvantages of the yak 9u,which seems mostly capable of  turning  using the vert. and horiz. planes to fight against all and any plane that i've encountered .With that said I fought  1v1 against an La-7,while he the advantage in acceleration I was able to maintain the vert. and thus control the situation.As a note the book "ILLUSTRATED AIRCRAFT OF WW2" PUBLISHED by SALAMANDER PUBLISHERS  states that  while the La-7 was the chosen plane of almost all Russian aces the Yak 9u did have a 31mph speed advantage over it,and yet noone ever complaines about Yaks.I'm sure that any number of different opinions and info. can be obtaiined ,but this is my 2 cents worth ,if its worth that much.

VIC
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 04:24:13 PM
Quote
Thats the weight of ONE Shvak plus ammo. But...you need to add 50 more rounds to your equation.


I am speaking in terms of the weight gain or loss by adding or deleting the 3 gun option IN GAME. That is what you get. 144lbs more or less on or off of the La7 if you take the 3 gun option.

150rpg..... my mistake. Give or take 100lbs. Too lazy to do the math and i got dinner waiting.

Although, you cannot refute that weight is weight and 100+lbs in a tiny, light weight fighter such as the La7 is nothing to spit at. It may not seem like much but in the air, in a paper plane, it is. And it WILL affect performance no matter how you want to slice it.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 04:34:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
I am speaking in terms of the weight gain or loss by adding or deleting the 3 gun option IN GAME. That is what you get. 144lbs more or less on or off of the La7 if you take the 3 gun option.

150rpg.....



2 Shvaks + 400 rnds = 148kg    42kg + 42 kg = 84 kg + (400 x 160g = 64kg) =148kg

3 B-20's + 450 rnds = 147kg     25kg + 25kg + 25kg = 75kg + (450 x 160g = 72kg) = 147kg


1kg (2.2 pound) difference, in favor of the B-20 package. Because of the significant weight difference between the 2 guns, there is almost no TOTAL weight difference, hence the 3 cannon advantage. There is a 2.2 lb net loss in weight with the 3 cannon option. Not a 144lb gain.

*edit* typo and added in the math
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: bj229r on March 26, 2005, 04:45:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by victor
the book "ILLUSTRATED AIRCRAFT OF WW2" PUBLISHED by SALAMANDER PUBLISHERS  states that  while the La-7 was the chosen plane of almost all Russian aces the Yak 9u did have a 31mph speed advantage over it,and yet noone ever complaines about Yaks.

VIC


..Thats because in AH NOTHING has a 31 mph speed advantage over La7
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 04:48:54 PM
I disagree on the wieght of three guns versus 2. I would continute to add to this conversation but its honestly going to accomplish nothing.

The weight on the B20s is false. 2 of them doesnt equal the same as 3 shvaks. Not even by a small margin are they close.

The ammo; you have 50 more rounds there. Or does that not count either?

Elfie, WEIGHT In a Fighter is weight. If you're arguing just for the sake of doing so (which I know you, and you most likely are doing just that) then fine. So be it. But your wrong in your thinking, and there is no escaping that fact. Sorry.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 05:00:25 PM
Quote
Elfie, WEIGHT In a Fighter is weight. If you're arguing just for the sake of doing so (which I know you, and you most likely are doing just that) then fine. So be it. But your wrong in your thinking, and there is no escaping that fact. Sorry.


You can't argue with the math Morph.

You DONT know me, and I never argue for the sake of arguement.

The math equations are dependant on 2 things being correct. The weight of the Shvak and B-20, and the weight of each individual round. So far no one has come up with different weights for the guns themselves.

Quote
The ammo; you have 50 more rounds there. Or does that not count either?


Yes I do have 50 more rounds. The Shvak loadout is 200 rpg. (200 x 2 = 400) The B-20 loadout is 150 rpg. (150 x 3 = 450) IF the weights previously posted here are correct, even with 50 more rounds total, the B-20 package is 1kg lighter.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 05:15:45 PM
The weights do appear to be correct at 42kg for the ShVak and 25kg for the Berezin B-20 cannons. The ShVak was a 1930's design. The B-20 was developed much later and with alot less weight.

Info on the ShVak.


http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/gun-shvak20.html


Info on the ShVak and the Berezin B-20. (Along with alot of others)

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm


Weight is weight to a fighter Morph, more is bad, less is good. That goes without saying imo. In this particular case I seriously doubt that 1 kg will make any difference if flight characteristics.



*edit* adding one more source.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 05:20:12 PM
Now that I think about it.....the Soviets were quite ingenious when designing the B-20 cannon. They added 1 gun to the La-7 (for a total of 3 guns), added 50 more rounds to the package, and STILL maintained basically the same weight. Amazing.....
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 05:42:26 PM
Quote
Weight is weight to a fighter Morph, more is bad, less is good.


In in gods name are you telling me that?

I've been the one arguing that point all along.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: SELECTOR on March 26, 2005, 05:51:08 PM
i personaly think the la7 is a nice plane from what ive read about it... i don't fly it  in ah. in ma  it truly is a scab on the game play .. especially if you want to fly early mid war planes( cts keep your big mouths shut..im talking about ma not the graveyard called CT)
somthing needs to be done about them..
i would perk them 2 perks or even restrict them to HQ defense, just like the me163...
too many gaylord ;a7s make the game very dull... its like a virus la7 attacer spawns la7 defender. eventually everyone will be flying them...


don't give me we need an easy plane for the noobs excuse either.
thats further up the dark hole than yesterdays dinner.. after all i recon more so called experienced pilot that should knw better fly them than noobs..
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 06:02:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
In in gods name are you telling me that?

I've been the one arguing that point all along.


That wasnt the point, the point was that the ShVak weighs significantly more than the B-20. In fact the difference is enough to cancel out the weight from 50 more rounds, AND 1 more gun  with 1kg to spare.

So prove your point that the 3 gun option weighs more than the 2 gun option. :)

I posted links to back up someone else's claim on the gun weights. Did you look at them?
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 26, 2005, 06:07:22 PM
I forgot to add.

You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.

They aren't hard to beat. Not in the least bit. If an La7 starts to run I know basicly right from the start what I can expect from him. All you have to do is go on your way and keep an eye on him. He WILL screw up and if your watching for it you can capitolize on it.

They can turn very well but take some know-how. But they can be taken down just as easy never the less.

I wish you guys would just play the game.

You do know perking it will only force them to run more right? That goes for the 51's or Tiffys or any other late war ride. Sure there are those who've got 1000s of perks. But there are even more who do not. Those that dont aren't going to be turn fighting in a plane they dont really know how to fly to begin with if it costs perks now.

You perk those rides and we'll have even more runners than we do now. You guys want that?
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: DipStick on March 26, 2005, 06:16:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
I forgot to add.

You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.

They aren't hard to beat. Not in the least bit. If an La7 starts to run I know basicly right from the start what I can expect from him. All you have to do is go on your way and keep an eye on him. He WILL screw up and if your watching for it you can capitolize on it.

They can turn very well but take some know-how. But they can be taken down just as easy never the less.

I wish you guys would just play the game.

You do know perking it will only force them to run more right? That goes for the 51's or Tiffys or any other late war ride. Sure there are those who've got 1000s of perks. But there are even more who do not. Those that dont aren't going to be turn fighting in a plane they dont really know how to fly to begin with if it costs perks now.

You perk those rides and we'll have even more runners than we do now. You guys want that?

That pretty much says it all. Thanks for saving me the typing Morph. :p
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 26, 2005, 06:38:43 PM
Quote
You perk those rides and we'll have even more runners than we do now. You guys want that?


Not sure if we will have more runners or not. Odds are we wouldnt see as many of the late war track stars as we do now. Otoh, people would jump in the next fastest ride and run in that hehe. More runners though? People will either engage or not, doesnt really matter what plane they are in. I've seen planes that can outturn/outrun me, that had every advantage, inexplicably dive and run away.

I think its more of a persons mentality than a plane thing.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Raider179 on March 26, 2005, 10:09:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
I forgot to add.

It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.

 But they can be taken down just as easy never the less.

 


This sounds contradictory. how can it be easier to live in and easy to take down?
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: humble on March 26, 2005, 10:33:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by victor
While I'm no expert on the matter ,I''m spending this month learning the advantages/disadvantages of the yak 9u,which seems mostly capable of  turning  using the vert. and horiz. planes to fight against all and any plane that i've encountered .With that said I fought  1v1 against an La-7,while he the advantage in acceleration I was able to maintain the vert. and thus control the situation.As a note the book "ILLUSTRATED AIRCRAFT OF WW2" PUBLISHED by SALAMANDER PUBLISHERS  states that  while the La-7 was the chosen plane of almost all Russian aces the Yak 9u did have a 31mph speed advantage over it,and yet noone ever complaines about Yaks.I'm sure that any number of different opinions and info. can be obtaiined ,but this is my 2 cents worth ,if its worth that much.

VIC


Actually half of the russian top 10 flew the P-39. It was actually one of if not the most preferred ride of the elite VVS guards units.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: ATA on March 27, 2005, 01:37:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by humble
Actually half of the russian top 10 flew the P-39. It was actually one of if not the most preferred ride of the elite VVS guards units.

There wasn't much of a choise.This is Russia we talking about, there isnt a "prefered" plane,there is  a "plane that given to you".
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Morpheus on March 27, 2005, 01:47:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
This sounds contradictory. how can it be easier to live in and easy to take down?


Its not contradictory if you understand the nature of the beast.

The plane gives the players some sort of a choice to engage and or disengage at their own leisure. But this works to a point.

That point is when the fight becomes as such where any disengagment is out of the question and not an option. At that point the La7 is no different than any other plane in the game. At that point its all about pilot Vs pilot and how each can perform in the given plane.

Lets face it. This type of thread has been going on for as long as the La7 has been around. I can think of many threads that go years back which were almost identical to this one. I doubt very much that Hitech will perk the plane, and I hope he doesnt. Not because I fly it, which I rarely do. But because it helps a new player to dive into the fighter scene head on. (no pun intended)

This, along with planes like the SpitV and Spit9 are very good choices for a new player to pick from.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Tilt on March 28, 2005, 02:11:45 PM
Morph if HTC have caused the total loadout of the three cannon (B20) version to be heavier than   the two cannon (shvak) version.

Then they have made a gross error.

Infact when empty the three B20 total weight (75kg) is 9kg lighter than the two shvak total weight (84kg).


The three cannon La7 did see action in the GPW..........

It was coming off production lines in  Jan 45

The "Mongolsky Arat" escadrilya (squadron) of the 2nd GIAP were issued with three cannon La7's prior to mid spring 45 and were in the thick of fighting (Poland, Czechia, Germany) right thru to the end of the GPW

The 4th GIAP of the Baltic Fleet recieved them at the same time.

Airmess's skin Yellow 3 was in service in the Baltic during April (olive skin was introduced in spring of 45)

But WWII did not end for the Soviets with the finish of the GPW. They then mounted a massive attack on Japanese held Manchuria during July and August during which La7's again served along side Yak 3's, Yak 9U's and (latterly)King Cobras.

The P 39 was very popular with the Soviets. It was reliable, robust, could take a beating. its use by so many "aces" is really down to one man.............

Aleksandr Pokryshkin 2nd Highest scoring allied ace and (many say) one of the greatest allied fighter pilots/commanders of WWII.

Pokryshkin flew through out the  GPW flying nearly all types at one time or another and developing Soviet fighter tactics latterly taught throughout the VVS.

In particular he developed tactics for the P39 during his command of 16GIAP and latterly (May 44) 9 GIAD (A division which was made up of most of the P39 equipped air regiments whose "aces" appear in the top ten. 9GIAP produced 61 HSU's, 4 double HSU's and in Pokryskin himself one triple HSU)

However even 9 GIAD 's P39's were replaced with La7's by 45.
Title: Whooping LA7's 101...
Post by: g00b on March 28, 2005, 02:26:17 PM
How to beat a LA7.

Try climbing over 10,000 ft before engaging.

That's it.

g00b
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: humble on March 28, 2005, 02:50:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ATA
There wasn't much of a choise.This is Russia we talking about, there isnt a "prefered" plane,there is  a "plane that given to you".


Actually there was alot of pressure from higher up to move away from the P-39 to the la-5,la-7 and other russian built planes. The various "guards" units had choice of material. The top russian aces could fly any plane they wanted....

Here are a couple of excerpts and a link....

Drawing conclusions, it can be said that the debut of the Airacobra in the Soviet VVS was singularly successful. In skilled hands it was a powerful weapon, fully on a par with the enemy equipment. There was no "special" operational environment for the Airacobras-they were employed as normal multi-purpose fighters that fulfilled the same roles as Lavochkins and Yakovlevs: they contested with fighters, escorted bombers, flew on reconnaissance, and protected our ground forces. They differed from Soviet-produced fighters in having a more powerful armament, survivability, and a good radio, and fell behind our fighters in vertical maneuverability, capability to withstand excessive G-forces, and to execute acute maneuvers. The pilots loved their Airacobras for comfort and good protection. As one P-39 pilot expressed it, he felt like he was "flying in a safe". Airacobra pilots did not burn because the aircraft was metal and the fuel cells were positioned far away in the wing. They were not subject to jets of steam or streams of oil because the engine was behind them. Their faces were not beat up on protrusions of the gunsight. If the airplane should happen to flip over on landing, they were not turned into lump of flesh, as happened to twice HSU A. F. Klubov after transitioning from a P-39 to an La-7. There was a kind of mystical belief that a pilot attempting to preserve a damaged Cobra by belly landing it would almost always emerge not only alive, but also undamaged. But if he bailed out of the same airplane he often was seriously injured or killed by the stabilizer, which was on the same level as the door.

The regiment went into combat on 17 March 1943 from Korenovsk airfield, in the Kuban, as part of the 219th Bomber Division, 4th Air Army. The regiment fought in this subordination for the entire extent of the celebrated air campaign over the Kuban. It fought against the best German fighter squadrons: JG 51 (Mulders) and JG 3 (Green Hearts). During the period from 17 March to 20 August 1943, the regiment flew 1,625 combat sorties with a flight time of 2,072 hours. It conducted 111 aerial engagements, in which it shot down 167 and damaged an additional 29 enemy aircraft. Its losses were 30 Airacobras destroyed and 11 damaged.
For combat successes in the Kuban campaign, the 298th IAP was designated the 104th Guards IAP on 24 August 1943. The regiment commander, I. A. Taranenko, received the rank Hero of the Soviet Union and was promoted. Major V. G. Semenishin, who had been awarded HSU on 24 May 1943, was named the regiment commander on 18 July 1943. In August 1943, the newspaper Pravda published a photograph of the four best pilots of the regiment with the inscription, "Fighter pilots who, in the battle for the Kuban, have shot down 60 German aircraft: major V. Semenishin, Captains K. Vishnevetskiy and V. Drygin, Junior Lieutenant A. Vilyamson". V. M. Drygin received the HSU rank on 24 May 1943, Vishnevetskiy at the end of the Kuban campaign on 24 August 1943, and Vilyamson on 27 June 1945.

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/part2.htm
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Magoo on March 28, 2005, 02:57:42 PM
Perk the P39!!!

oh, wait...
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Magoo on March 28, 2005, 03:10:50 PM
Ponder for a moment the idea that if most fights in AH took place at 25K instead of 5Kish we'd be calling on HTC to perk the Jug!

not the La7 - which would be considered a dog...

Magoo
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Vipermann on March 28, 2005, 03:20:06 PM
If your having trouble with LA-7's running away just start flyin the Tempest and run em down.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Innominate on March 28, 2005, 03:50:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Magoo
Perk the P39!!!

oh, wait...

Can we hijack this thread an turn it into a
"Add the P-39Q!" thread?
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: paulobrien6969 on March 28, 2005, 04:00:33 PM
L(http://flightsims.info/datas/users/12-icon_batty.gif)7
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: ATA on March 28, 2005, 04:27:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by paulobrien6969
L(http://flightsims.info/datas/users/12-icon_batty.gif)7

62 kills in la5-7,more than any of  Shi*fire Aces
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Elfie on March 28, 2005, 05:24:38 PM
Quote
Then they have made a gross error.


I don't think HTC has made an error in regards to the weight of the 2 gun packages. As I said earlier I have flown the La-7 with both gun packages and noticed no difference in flight characteristics.

I have also tryed to find a source that shows a different weight other than 25kg for the Berezin B-20. I havent been able to find anything that says differently.
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: paulobrien6969 on March 29, 2005, 12:13:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ATA
62 kills in la5-7,more than any of  Shi*fire Aces


lol i only joke
i just wanted to use my gay smiley he he
i like the plane myself
great for base defence
and to kills other la's
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Wurger on March 29, 2005, 12:06:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus


You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.
 


Thats fine, let the noobs have it unperked for thier first tour or two, then start perking it.  Sadly, most of the LaLa dweeb hoarders I run into are not noobs at all and this plan lets the noobs have their uber-fitter and makes the vets pay for it...

Bazi
Cactus Air Force
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Wurger on March 29, 2005, 12:06:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus


You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.
 


Thats fine, let the noobs have it unperked for thier first tour or two, then start perking it.  Sadly, most of the LaLa dweeb hoarders I run into are not noobs at all and this plan lets the noobs have their uber-fitter and makes the vets pay for it...

Bazi
Cactus Air Force
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Wurger on March 29, 2005, 12:07:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus


You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.
 


Thats fine, let the noobs have it unperked for thier first tour or two, then start perking it.  Sadly, most of the LaLa dweeb hoarders I run into are not noobs at all and this plan lets the noobs have their uber-fitter and makes the vets pay for it...

Bazi
Cactus Air Force
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Wurger on March 29, 2005, 12:07:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus


You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.
 


Thats fine, let the noobs have it unperked for thier first tour or two, then start perking it.  Sadly, most of the LaLa dweeb hoarders I run into are not noobs at all and this plan lets the noobs have their uber-fitter and makes the vets pay for it...

Bazi
Cactus Air Force
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Wurger on March 29, 2005, 12:07:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus


You will NEVER see the La7 perked. And I do not think it should be either. I'm glad that HT set that plane in the game the way he did. It gives new players something to fight in and live in more importantly.
 


Thats fine, let the noobs have it unperked for thier first tour or two, then start perking it.  Sadly, most of the LaLa dweeb hoarders I run into are not noobs at all and this plan lets the noobs have their uber-fitter and makes the vets pay for it...

Bazi
Cactus Air Force
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: humble on March 29, 2005, 12:16:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wurger
Thats fine, let the noobs have it unperked for thier first tour or two, then start perking it.  Sadly, most of the LaLa dweeb hoarders I run into are not noobs at all and this plan lets the noobs have their uber-fitter and makes the vets pay for it...

Bazi
Cactus Air Force


The lala just isnt all that uber....yes its a very very good plane. However, it just doesnt dominate the arena. The biggest issue a lala creates is it forces you to break and allows the rest of the horde to catch up...but a pony,tiffie,D-9 or G10 will do the same thing. I'm much more worried about high zekes, spit V's & hurricanes then La-7's. The lala is a great point defense fighter...nothing better to up from a capped field....but its limited beyond that...
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: bozon on March 30, 2005, 03:25:06 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again, entire WWII is a too wide timespan. You can take it to an even greater extremes and create 1916 - 2005 areana where you can fight F16's with Fokker Eindeckers.

The MA HTC chose to make is a 1945 areana. The mid war planes are for veriety, the early war are a joke and probably ment to be used in CT/events.
I just can't see why the spit 14 is perked in this areana though.

Bozon
Title: get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: dedalos on March 30, 2005, 10:30:05 AM
3 hours on last night.  Did not see any.  All spits, NIKs, and 190s