Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on March 28, 2005, 03:04:30 PM
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Been along time since I've done any serious phonebooth fighting. Even flying the Ki-61, -1 hog, F6 in the MA primarily I didnt realize just how far I'd migrated away from the edge of the envelope. Saw a large bunch in the DA when I logged in last night and jumped on in....had alot of fun but got seriously schooled by hemp and a few others....just amazed how hard it was for me to find the edge...let alone keep the thing near it:).....
Anyway, upped a couple different flavors of spit this AM. In 2nd sortie was in a IX (mainly since I only had the two hops and wanted DT for range). Got in a fight with a higher spitV that bounced me....was able to get the overshoot and ended up in a pure vertical looping fight. amazed that I slowly lost angles to the spit V...played with hvy throttle and barely getting over top to full out on wep.
Couple questions....what is "most efficient" way to play that vertical looping game. second is I'd guess that spitIX should win since its got more power....so in my mind I was just getting out flown...or am I wrong and spit V is better in that context??
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more power=more torque=less stability. Its a small difference, but big enough that in my 38, I can loop indefinately with a spit9 and mantain position. Aginst a spit5 I have 3-5 loops to gain position, after that if I dont have position, I probably wont get it.
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So the spit V will out perform the spit IX in a "loop contest"...?
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Given even E and pilot skill, it should hold the egde of stall slightly better, and eventually out turn it. Or mabey better put, every time the spit9 has to ease off to avoid a departure, the spit5 gains.
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I'd take my spit5 in a loop fight against a 9 anyday. To me, the stall of the spit5 is MUCH more controlable than the spit9. And as Murdr so nicely put it, spit5 will gain position while the spit9 is trying to recover. I know I only got 1 fight with you humble and you did very well. Stop by the DA more often and us "chest thumpers" will get ya back on track and pushin that envelope with ease once again :D
PS: humble have you ran into bovidae yet? If so, it's nothing you're doing wrong, he's just not human lol. CYA up:p
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I was amazed just how far off my feel got....I used to "duel" (using the term loosly:)) DMF (levi) Citabria (fester) Nash Nath Av8tr and a bunch of others in the TA all the time (back in 2001/2002. Certainly never claim I wupped up on em, but I think I at least provided some reasonable entertainment while learning a bunch I could pass on to the baby seals.
Trust me I'll be in the DA alot...going to spend next tour in the various spitties trying to regain a bit of feel for hard core T&B again....
I didnt feel like I was losing the plane at all in the above referenced encounter....just was suprised I was losing angles instead of gaining them. Obviously in a horizontal fight I'd expect that...but the vertical felt like the extra power would help not hurt....
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Originally posted by humble
Anyway, upped a couple different flavors of spit this AM. In 2nd sortie was in a IX (mainly since I only had the two hops and wanted DT for range). Got in a fight with a higher spitV that bounced me....was able to get the overshoot and ended up in a pure vertical looping fight. amazed that I slowly lost angles to the spit V...played with hvy throttle and barely getting over top to full out on wep.
Couple questions....what is "most efficient" way to play that vertical looping game. second is I'd guess that spitIX should win since its got more power....so in my mind I was just getting out flown...or am I wrong and spit V is better in that context??
I would suggest that the difference here is weight. If you had taken off with a DT and hvy internal fuel and got bounced by a Spit V with lighter fuel load, he would probably have a substantial advantage, even in the vertical. You may have more power, but he's got to be using a lot less g to make each loop if he's lighter...
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Good point....carrying 75% + DT...so was at 75% at start of fight....
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With the change to 16+ boost on the Spit V it is not at a power disadvantage anymore. When it had 12+ boost the IX had an advantage in the verticle, but no more, and the IX is only 2-3 MPH faster on the deck now, where it was 20MPH faster.
The only advantages the IX has over the V now is hi alt performance, the .50 cal gun loadout and the ability to take DT's. Otherwise the V owns it IMO.
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Originally posted by humble
Good point....carrying 75% + DT...so was at 75% at start of fight....
I teach folks who want to fly a spit 9 to take 50% and DT. This provides the newer guys with approx a 1/4 tank to fight with (after they get there, drop the ext and engage) then turn for home on the last 1/4 tank. They also find that they are just about outa ammo at that point. 50% fuel is a very nice weight to get used to and fight with. The 9 is very easy and snappy to handle at that weight.
While I know you're no noob to flying I'm surprised that you really try and work a loop fight against the 5. Everytime you come over the top you provide the 5 the opportunity to cut inside your loop. Think of the Egg, sitting on its fat end, pointy end up. Your plane actually flies around the circumference of the egg as it sits there. As you power over the top he cuts power and flops over inside you. As you continue to nose down and fly down to the bottom of the loop (fat part of the egg) he cuts some power and again turns inside your bottom of the loop. He still carries enough power to continue back up with you because he never got his nose as buried as you did so he starts going up from a higher alt than you do. So for every loop you do he has two chances to turn inside you for a shot.
My suggestion is you put your lift vector on his high 6 and pull to it. It's a very aggressive move but that's what dogfighting is all about :) As long as you can place him ahead of your 3-9 line you will always be behind him and you can take the shots as they present themselves.
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Originally posted by Grits
With the change to 16+ boost on the Spit V it is not at a power disadvantage anymore. When it had 12+ boost the IX had an advantage in the verticle, but no more, and the IX is only 2-3 MPH faster on the deck now, where it was 20MPH faster.
The only advantages the IX has over the V now is hi alt performance, the .50 cal gun loadout and the ability to take DT's. Otherwise the V owns it IMO.
Actually the 9 will flat out beat the 5 in the vertical if you set up the fight correctly. Once you do you own the fight and the 5. :)
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I almost never fly spitties so I'm really not all that good in em...I spend a lot of time just scrubbing E off the bird still even though I fly off the gas more then half of a fight. In this case ren the other spittie came in with 4-5k of alt and had control...I was able to force the overshoots pretty easily but it was easy to see he was E fighting me. After I forced the 3rd overshoot he converted to a looping fight (think he didnt think he could zoom again)...at that point I think he's toast. I expected to gain angles force him to evade by breaking off to a flat turn and then grab the perch from him...instead he ate my angles gain up to the point I had to break and scoot. He then got cherried and I never did find out who he was....
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Originally posted by Grits
The only advantages the IX has over the V now is hi alt performance, the .50 cal gun loadout and the ability to take DT's. Otherwise the V owns it IMO.
Hmmmm.
How would you know this, Grits?
- oldman
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You told me so!
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Originally posted by Grits
With the change to 16+ boost on the Spit V it is not at a power disadvantage anymore. When it had 12+ boost the IX had an advantage in the verticle, but no more, and the IX is only 2-3 MPH faster on the deck now, where it was 20MPH faster.
The only advantages the IX has over the V now is hi alt performance, the .50 cal gun loadout and the ability to take DT's. Otherwise the V owns it IMO.
I had a spit V on my butt last night...was my 2nd or third time in the IX. I ignored him since he was about 2k out and finished up the business at hand...look back and he's 1.0.....800....600....levels out at 600 and I was able to create enough motion that he missed (if he was firing)...opened back up to 800 then 1.0 as the 9 started to top back out. Once I reversed he went all angles and it was pretty easy to swat him. The saving grace with the spit V drivers seems to be their total reliance on the plane to do the work (now oviously that doesnt include the heavy hitters).
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Yeah, Ill agree that the spit5 is a very forgiving plane. Against the avg MA player normally you can get away with a mistake or 2 and slip out of it, that with other aircraft you'd have a much tougher time. Against the better pilots however, you make 1 mistake and your toast, but thats normally the result regardless of plane:)
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80% plane 20% pilot....
BTW I got dumped last night...DSL was screwy for about an hour so I didnt bother coming back....
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We have the best version spit V and worst version spit IX possible. In this case the spit V is the better plane of the two. Sadly, this is the best non perked RAF fighters (no offence to the typhoon lovers out there).
The only (slight) preformance advantages that the 9 might have over the 5 is high speed zoom and speed at altitude. This is not a lot to work with.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
We have the best version spit V and worst version spit IX possible. In this case the spit V is the better plane of the two. Sadly, this is the best non perked RAF fighters (no offence to the typhoon lovers out there).
The only (slight) preformance advantages that the 9 might have over the 5 is high speed zoom and speed at altitude. This is not a lot to work with.
Bozon
I hate to disagree but I have no idea where you are getting your data. IMHO there is a big performance difference in the planes. The 9 is head over heels above the 5. The only thing the 5 can do over the 9 is turn a lil better. That's it.
Ren
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The Damned
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I, personally, am not on the "spitV is the best spit" bandwagon.
I do much better in a Spit9 then a V.
The main area where the SpitV shines is low alt base defense where you are makin it up but not have time to climb. As anything but a lower speed turn fighter I prefer the Spit9 over a SpitV any day.
Now ofcourse this is relative to preference.
The problem in your case is that you where in a E disadvantage which is extreamly painfull against a "better turner", which the SpitV is. Even though he overshot you he still has more E.
The difference in planes aint big enough for you to make up for that E advantage in a "loop fight".
Problem is you cant slow the fight down either as the SpitV will out turn you.
Somehow you have to equalize the E situation before dealing with the spit.
Personally what I would have done is broken off the second I see him go nose down in the loop, roll and keep climbing. This way you gain vertical position on him and he has to go down and up again to climb on you.
Anyways somehow you need a co-E situation.
From there I would go into the vertical games with the SpitV any time. Though not in a loop game. What I would do is use my HP advantage and make him work for his alt. Go for the merge like you would go for a immel but streach it up instead into a steep climb. Work that engine, make him come after you and if he doesnt turn the table and go agressive on him.
Another alternative is doing the first immel and then doing a second immel. Note not loop but double immels or tripple depending on how much juice you have. Then as you start running out of juice go into high YoYos. Make him work UPWARDS.
Important here is to win vertical separation on each merge. If you win each vertical separation and immel your way up to the skies then the SpitV will fall off before you do and you will endup in a good position.
Tex
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LOL, horsepower advantage for the IX. You guys flown the V after they upped the boost to 16+ over the previous 12+?
After that boost change the V eats the IX's lunch and gives it change back, even in ther verticle.
The V was 20MPH slower on the deck than the IX before the boost change, now its only 2-3 which is basically nothing. I would totally agree with Tex and Ren if we were talking about the 12+ boost Spit V, but after it got the 16+ boost, its a monster.
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
I, personally, am not on the "spitV is the best spit" bandwagon.
I do much better in a Spit9 then a V.
The main area where the SpitV shines is low alt base defense where you are makin it up but not have time to climb. As anything but a lower speed turn fighter I prefer the Spit9 over a SpitV any day.
Now ofcourse this is relative to preference.
The problem in your case is that you where in a E disadvantage which is extreamly painfull against a "better turner", which the SpitV is. Even though he overshot you he still has more E.
The difference in planes aint big enough for you to make up for that E advantage in a "loop fight".
Problem is you cant slow the fight down either as the SpitV will out turn you.
Somehow you have to equalize the E situation before dealing with the spit.
Personally what I would have done is broken off the second I see him go nose down in the loop, roll and keep climbing. This way you gain vertical position on him and he has to go down and up again to climb on you.
Anyways somehow you need a co-E situation.
From there I would go into the vertical games with the SpitV any time. Though not in a loop game. What I would do is use my HP advantage and make him work for his alt. Go for the merge like you would go for a immel but streach it up instead into a steep climb. Work that engine, make him come after you and if he doesnt turn the table and go agressive on him.
Another alternative is doing the first immel and then doing a second immel. Note not loop but double immels or tripple depending on how much juice you have. Then as you start running out of juice go into high YoYos. Make him work UPWARDS.
Important here is to win vertical separation on each merge. If you win each vertical separation and immel your way up to the skies then the SpitV will fall off before you do and you will endup in a good position.
Tex
Tex...
I dont ever have a problem being neg E in a fight. In this particular encounter he was good enough to avoid the pitfalls and carry thru to his end game...I dont know if he wanted to convert to a looping fight to close me out of simply decided I'd carried enough E to make a zoom to dangerous to him...
There is no practical way to force equalization of E under the circumstances laid out. It's simply a question of grabbing a combination of E and/or angles when/how possible.
At the time I felt we were equal overall...I'd eaten into his E advantage significantly and gained maximum angles possible (since I'm on his dead 6)...if I let the nose fall off I'm giving angles back for little or no real gain in E. If I climb thru his reverse I risk a front quarter shot while giving up angles and E. It's simply not possible (IMO) to take a fight up vs a higher alt/higher E opponent...had I gone up after he looped down now I'd be topping out while he's climbing back up to me...at best we'd be pretty close to co-e and he'd now have both angles and the shooting position.
To me the critical element when your bounced is winning the angles...then working on equalizing E. The con now has to "end run" you to gain another shooting solution....invariably you gain E as he is forced to convert E to angular gain. As long as you maintain "top down" shooting solutions for him and defend any in plane or "bottom up" attacks he'll give up both angles and E on every shot.
This was a fight I "won"...and then gave back do to a poor decision in tactics on my part...my question here is/was pretty simple...was I wrong in assuming I had the edge in performance or was I simply outflown.
As it was I had no problem with exit since I was in control of the fight from an angular perspective...however I dont think any move to "take the perch" would have survived the reach of his hazooka's....any more than he would have survived mine :)....
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Ren...
Going back to your "egg" post I was working the inside track...I was in drag on the spit V's last overshoot....simply keeping angles as long as practical...he wasnt seperating so I kept on climbing with him...he converted to a loop and I immedialty came off wep/gas to both avoid the possibility of a face shot and to grab the "inside track"...I was the one "flopping" while he was driving the outside "circle"...my thoughts mirror your comments i'm cutting his circle top and bottom....but he actually gained...so I went to wep (as needed) to try and power thru at max G's had little circle window going ... then tried middle ground. After a couple of each it was pretty clear I didnt have an answer so as he went up I split s'd him and dove away looking to retrim then reverse back to reengage...he kept going and engaged a con coming from other way and got whacked...
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angles, vectors and bears, Oh My! (I am gettin nightmares about this)
Going to go back to read up on all this over-my-head-stuff till it starts to sink in. Here's Ren again, who I have to credit with my First exposure to the 3-9 line.....
I can keep awake during powerpoint, and while I have a headache after reading this indepth post, I am also getting a nosebleed.
Boy oh boy.
"The more I know.... the More I know how little I know!"
Respect to ya gents.
cyas up.... I will not give up.
(I think i can, I think i can, I think i ccan, I think i can)
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Originally posted by humble
Ren...
Going back to your "egg" post I was working the inside track...I was in drag on the spit V's last overshoot....simply keeping angles as long as practical...he wasnt seperating so I kept on climbing with him...he converted to a loop and I immedialty came off wep/gas to both avoid the possibility of a face shot and to grab the "inside track"...I was the one "flopping" while he was driving the outside "circle"...my thoughts mirror your comments i'm cutting his circle top and bottom....
Hmmm were you guys splitting the circle? As in canopy to canopy but at opposite ends of the egg? In other words could you have gone level (immel) on top and drove off while he continued around the bottom of the loop so while he came back up you would now be carrying more speed as he reached his "top" then you take him up in a chandelle to force him to continue? Just a thought. You can't turn over the top of him or you give him a snapshot at his max range but you can force him into a rope. You level flight at the top of the loop gives you the opportunity to accelerate back into the chandelle.
Also, if he's in the tighter looping plane that flies a lil slower, even if your able to turn inside him he is prolly alot closer to his best fighting speed than you are. So his loop "looks" alot larger but may be at his best speed to perform it while you are much slower for the same circle, plus you cut even more speed to turn inside him. At some point his looping edge will win the day if your max performance loop is much larger.
IMHO sometimes what you see is more an illusion because your view is comparative only to what his plane is doing. Obviously, you know immediately when he is beginning to win the loop fight but the reason may not be as apparent until you look at the performance differences in the planes.
Ren
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Originally posted by humble
I was able to create enough motion that he missed
Damn stick stirrers. :D
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Originally posted by TalonX
Damn stick stirrers. :D
hehe.....
Actually if I'd "flopped" I'd of burned enough E he'd of got me...just an occasional dip or slide to avoid sitting in his sights to long:)....I'm always amazed at the guys who start flopping around at 800 out....invariably they let me in to 200 where I can hit em:aok
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the seafire holds up preety well against the spit 5, most of the time