Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: TweetyBird on March 28, 2005, 07:14:24 PM
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It seems Michael Schiavo wants proof of the extent of his estranged wife's brain damage. So did he allow a PET or fMRI?
Nope. He ordered an autopsy. Just when you think it could get no weirder. I just hope he doesn't have to say "oops."
>>Felos also said that the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy on Schiavo. He said that her husband wants proof of the extent of her brain damage.
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Un friggin believable.
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What you're doing here is making a 'straw man' argument. You may have missed the cat scans that ALREADY show the brain damage. Wait, did you miss it? Or are you deliberately not mentioning it because it's an inconvenient fact that hurts your "argument"?
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How many thread are you going to open on this subject??? You have 3 so far and Skuzzy deleted the second one. You don't like what is happening, that is plain.
It isn't your family, it's not your call. Deal with it.
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apparently he has to argue on an internet message board to make himself feel that he's fighting for the 'cause.'
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-Winston Churchill
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I used a website to get the exact wording on the previous quote, and it had two others that, in hindsight, I see are equally as applicable to the situation:
A fanatic is a man who does what he thinks the Lord would do if only He knew the facts of the case.
-Finley Peter Dunne
The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity.
-Oscar Wilde
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Its a different topic, a test after a person is dead to prove something that could be proven before the person is dead.
But you ya don't have have to hit me in the head with a brick.
If enough people want me to stop posting here, I will. There's other forums. I'm sure not trying to mess up yours.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-Winston Churchill
i didn't know churchhill knew michael schiavo.
quote
Michael Schiavo "is that b**** dead yet?"
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Personal attack
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>>You may have missed the cat scans that ALREADY show the brain damage. Wait, did you miss it? Or are you deliberately not mentioning it because it's an inconvenient fact that hurts your "argument"?
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Do you know how a CT scan works? Do you know how meaningless one slice of a CT scan can be? Have you seen ONE 3d image of Terri Schiavo's brain? Do you think its possible to show all the slices of a CT scan to create a 3d image?
Do you know why this hasn't been done?
Because she has some cerebral cortex. A PET or fMRI would show if there was activity there. Her husband would rather use an autopsy.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Its a different topic, a test after a person is dead to prove something that could be proven before the person is dead.
But you ya don't have have to hit me in the head with a brick.
If enough people want me to stop posting here, I will. There's other forums. I'm sure not trying to mess up yours.
The test after is for proof for people like you. The rest of us already know what the CAT scans show.
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TweetyBird please read this. Click on the links after every piece of information.
You can then be at peace knowing that all tests have been performed and many many experts have agreed that the poor women is a vegetable.
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
If enough people want me to stop posting here, I will.
I'll second this motion.
All in favor, say "aye".
:aok
Note: This vote is regarding the Shiavo case, not all posts by Tweetybird in general. ;)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Its a different topic, a test after a person is dead to prove something that could be proven before the person is dead.
But you ya don't have have to hit me in the head with a brick.
If enough people want me to stop posting here, I will. There's other forums. I'm sure not trying to mess up yours.
As the scan the same legal value as the autopsie ?
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Nor do they show the same thing with defintiive proof.
In fact, autopsy is the only way to find out what exactly was going on in the brain. So, for example, many US insurers used to exploit this loophole to get out of paying for Alzheimer's patients: they required a definitive diagnosis before they would pay for care. Only way to diagnose Alzheimer's definitively is an autopsy. MRI or brain scan don't work.
So yeah, autopsy's a good idea; after all the medical examinations and tests by people without a theological axe to grind show that she is, indeed, vegetative, an autopsy will put to rest the line of arguments that she might improve. Who knows? It might even reveal that a conscious human bieng was murdered.
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Tweety, you want her alive, then YOU foot the bill...:aok
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"June 18, 1990
Court appoints Michael Schiavo as guardian; Terri Schiavo’s parents do not object"
This is where the parents had a chance to be involved in the decision. They could have objected and asked the judge to be co-guardian or to have a say in any medical decision, especially one involving her life. They basically gave him the decision making. So, for those who ask "well, who is the family?" Her husband is the family making the family decisions and the parents did not object to this.
If I were him I would have handed Terri over to her parents and said good bye then and moved on with my life. But I respect his decision, it's his family, not mine, and my government should stay out of it.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'll second this motion.
All in favor, say "aye".
:aok
Note: This vote is regarding the Shiavo case, not all posts by Tweetybird in general. ;)
Aye!
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'll second this motion.
All in favor, say "aye".
:aok
Note: This vote is regarding the Shiavo case, not all posts by Tweetybird in general. ;)
I would think my position would be clear but let me make it crystal.
"Aye"
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poor taste...but I'm poor so....
http://www.okcupid.com/profile?tuid=1472100630467380267
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
It seems Michael Schiavo wants proof of the extent of his estranged wife's brain damage. So did he allow a PET or fMRI?
Nope. He ordered an autopsy. Just when you think it could get no weirder. I just hope he doesn't have to say "oops."
>>Felos also said that the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy on Schiavo. He said that her husband wants proof of the extent of her brain damage.
<<
Un friggin believable.
(http://hammer.afdc.com/activities/ultimate/summer01/teams/4/photo1.jpg)
The horse done died.
Karaya
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I am emphatic about this subject, because I personally went through a similar situation, i.e., having an immediate family member suffer catastrophic brain damage.
Now this is *very * long (far outside soundbyte length), so if you are uninterested, just scroll or go on to another message. Don’t blame me for posting it, when you don’t have to read it.
On October 17, 1993 at about 5pm, I came home to find a message on my answering machine that my oldest brother (38 at the time) was in the emergency room with high blood pressure. This didn’t surprise me because my mother’s side of the family had a history of hypertension. On my way to the hospital, I was thinking they would probably give him an injection and discharge him soon. But what I found when I got there was them admitting him and moving him to ICU.
That was the first time I ever remember hearing the terms “malignant hypertension” and “tachycardia.” His blood pressure was 260/175 when he arrived at the hospital. His heart rate was 140. My father was there and said that they had put a needle directly into his heart to slow it down. They had managed to bring his blood pressure down, and were moving him to ICU.
At about 11 pm, an endocrinologist came out to the ICU waiting room to talk to us. I expected a heart doctor. The endocrinologist explained that blood pressure that high could not be explained by “normal” causes of hypertension (e.g., cardiovascular disease). He suspected a pheochromocytoma, which is a tumor that grows in the adrenal glands. That night and early morning, we spent 10 minutes every 4 hours visiting my brother who seemed to be feeling much better. By the 8 am visit he was sleeping.
The following day, a CT scan confirmed a mass in the adrenal gland above the left kidney. Armed with all this information, I searched medical texts for pheochromocytoma.
I found that in most cases it was benign. I ripped out the page and brought it to my brother – this was good news indeed.
The endocrinologist put my brother on a regiment of drugs to counteract the hormonal chaos the tumor in the adrenal gland was producing. It took a week for them to stabilize him enough to perform the surgery to remove the tumor. During this week, I slept in the ICU waiting room and visited my brother for 10 minutes every 4 hours.
The Sunday night before the surgery, my girlfriend stayed with me in the ICU waiting room. I remember asking her what I was going to do if the tumor was cancer or if he had problems in the surgery. “You’ll handle it.” Simple enough, I guess, but up to that point everything in my life had worked out. I had family members sick, (in fact another of my brothers almost died when he was 16) but it always worked out. I saw old people die (grandpas and grandmas, old uncles) but never someone young and close to me. A girl in my second grade class died after falling off a rope, but I didn’t really know her. My girlfriend was surer than I, that I could “handle it.”
They told us the surgery was going to take about 4- 5 hours, but the surgeon would come out during the middle of it, and talk to us to let us know how things were going. There was also a phone set up, where a nurse would call every now and then and give us updates. At first the calls were frequent,. She told us they had begun the surgery and had opened the abdominal cavity. Then the calls got less frequent. And then it was 2 hours before the surgeon came out to talk to us. There were two questions I remember, “how’s he doing?” and ,”does it look like cancer?” The only answer I remember is “yes” and then everything getting almost like slow motion.
I didn’t even stay for the end of the surgery. I had to go home. When I got to my truck, I found a tire was flat. The spare was on some thing underneath you had to screw down and it was stuck. I remember sitting in the parking lot crying like a baby and crying the whole time I changed that tire. I went home and slept for 12 hours. No one called.
When I went up to the hospital the next day, I almost expected to see someone dieing of cancer – thin, draw, and sunken eyes. But he still looked my brother. He was groggy, but he was talking, even joking. The banter was careful. “You sailed through that,” or “you’ve just got to focus on getting better.” There was no mention of the results of the biopsy everyone was waiting on. You think they would have figured a way to get them back sooner than 3 days. But it takes 3 days. So those 3 days were broken into 10 minute visits every 4 hours.
It was Friday when we got the biopsy results. I remember it was also my birthday. Oct 29, 1993. I was 35, and the biopsy showed no cancer- the tumor was benign. It was large and had wrapped up on some organs (the now absent spleen, the now ½ pancreas, the now absent left kidney), but the surgeon’s first impression wasn’t right. The tumor was benign. I do remember a lot of backslapping, laughing, rejoicing, and going out and getting smashed that night. It was Friday, my birthday, and my brother didn’t have cancer. I remember telling a bartender in a drunken stupor, “Jesus does exist.”
On Saturday, they moved my brother out of ICU into a regular room. My hangover and I went to see him, and he was kidding me as I slunk in a chair reading the paper in his room. And then he started to get on me again, “Shawn, I don’t think there anything wrong with partying once in awhile, but I’m afraid you’re going to get killed in one of those bars late at night. If someone comes in to rob the place, they won’t even find you all till the next morning. You need to be careful.” The pall of the hangover had me agreeing and swearing off booze. Then we started guessing about how many days before he would be discharged.
On Sunday night, my father called me at home and told me my brother was talking out of his head. They were having trouble getting a doctor, but a nurse said his blood pressure was high again, that it might be residual tumor. What the hell is “residual tumor?” When I got there, I found him alert but using the wrong words for things he was talking about. He’s be pointing at a glass and calling it a comb. Or he’d ask about a football game and ask something like “who won the horn?” It was almost like watching a computer crash. It was Halloween night and they performed an emergency CT scan. Since it was Halloween night, orderlies and help were in short supply. My younger brother and I had to lift him onto the table for the CT scan. There was no one else to do it.
The results were not good and the neurologist’s face showed it. It was a massive bleed on the left side of the brain. It was all white.
One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do in my life is explain to my mother what had just happened. I don’t think I ever remember her looking as small as she looked when I was walking toward her. Her eyes were pleading for news. I don’t know why, but I told her to walk outside with me. The whole time we’re walking she’s just getting more anxious, but all I can say is “please come outside.” She just looked so small, and she makes fists and asks (or curses) “when is this nightmare going to end!”
In my 46 years of life, I have never been sicker than when I plopped down in that waiting room of the ICU that Halloween night. The recliners, the tile, the wallpaper, the candy machines, every part of it made me want to throw up. I had spent over a week in that waiting room, and all of a sudden it hit me how absolutely sickening of a place it was. I’d go to the bathroom and throw up. I come back to the waiting room, it would make me sick, and back I’d go to throw up. The place was absolutely hideous. People sprawled out on recliners, some dinky television with the weather channel, half empty vending machines, all of it was disgusting. And yet, back again, when we should be going home.
During the night, I switched from a groveling, puking slug, to take charge “action hero”. Why? I have no idea. But it just seemed things were going too slow. I made a nuisance of myself and finally was face to face with the staff neurologist. And I asked him flat out, why my brother sitting in a bed with his brain bleeding instead of being in an operating room to stop it. I’ll never forget his answer, “Because you don’t get the best help in the middle of the night, especially a holiday night.” How do you answer or protest that?
By 9am that Monday morning, my brother had stopped breathing and was rushed to surgery being ventilated. The neurosurgeon rushed by us, stating,” I can’t talk now, but you have to understand, he is not going to be the same, he is going to have deficits. I am trying to save his life.”
That he did. But my brother never spoke again. He never walked again. He never ate through his mouth again. He never played his guitar again. He never played the piano again. He never wrote another essay. He never cautioned me again. He never argued religion till the sun came up, again. But he did smile again. I’m sure anyone who didn’t know him would mistake it for some involuntary muscle twitch. But I know different.
It was pretty dismal day, and I had just taken him outside. It was a few days after Christmas, and it was just too cold out there. Back in his room, at the rehab hospital, he was gazing at a hand drawn Christmas card. “Nicholas drew that for you.” He smiled wide. Nicholas is my youngest brother’s youngest son, and was always a favorite of Hank.
Hank died from septemia on January 4, 1994. He was 38, and I still miss him.
This story is not to be a drama queen. I know everyone suffers bad things ( this story is my first bad thing). But during the months my brother could not speak or respond, he would show glimpses of awareness. I know 10,000 doctors will say its involuntary. But I know better and was better able to see what was him and what was a twitch.
So yea, I am a fanatic about this.
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Not to make light of your experience, but am I reading this right?
Three months?
At three months, I and everyone else would probably agree with you and your opinion. At fifteen years, don't count on it.
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With due respect, and I understand that your loss was extremely difficult and emotional, I don't think that gives you a license to spazz.
You've started multiple threads on the subject, some of which are closed because they're troll bait. You've had comments censored by the admin for being personal attacks, and it is my opinion (for whatever that's worth) that you've conducted yourself poorly.
I don't claim to be a saint, and there are many on this board who vehemently disagree with me on some big subjects, but I try very hard not to violate the structure of polite conversation. I'm not perfect at this, not by far, but there's a difference.
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Inflammatory
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Originally posted by Silat
TweetyBird please read this. Click on the links after every piece of information.
You can then be at peace knowing that all tests have been performed and many many experts have agreed that the poor women is a vegetable.
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm
Does that mean the PETArds can eat her?
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I am not trying to be mean but that is absolutely irrelevant to the topic. I see nothing similar or nothing that would even come close to being on topic. I watched a grandmother die of emphysema over the course of a year and I was 11. That has nothing to do with anything. Everyone experiences death. If that is why you object to Terri You have some serious soul searching to do.
Hope you get over your brother and move on.
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I want to talk about that horse. Are you sure he’s dead? To me it looks like he’s just lying there.
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>> I see nothing similar or nothing that would even come close to being on topic. <<
Thats exactly right, you don't see much, but you speak loudly.
Have you ever wondered that you don't fully understand the implications of a left brain injury? Have you ever even heard the term "prisoner in his own body"?
You don't see how this fits and I'm supposed to be patient with you?
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Read the forum posting rules.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
It seems Michael Schiavo wants proof of the extent of his estranged wife's brain damage. So did he allow a PET or fMRI?
Nope. He ordered an autopsy. Just when you think it could get no weirder. I just hope he doesn't have to say "oops."
>>Felos also said that the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy on Schiavo. He said that her husband wants proof of the extent of her brain damage.
<<
Un friggin believable.
Next time you cite a news report, you should post exactly what they say in it instead of paraphrasing it and twisting it to fit your views.
If you had read the report, the M.E. said the autopsy was asked for to show the public the extent of her brain damage. Michael Schiavo is going to make the autopsy results public. He's not trying to hide or cover up anything.
ack-ack
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I wasn't paraphrasing. What I posted came from an AP story - quoted directly. The point was not the motive but the choice of test. Micheal Schiavo denied requests to have Terri undergo PET (which can be done while the patient is alive) but had no problem with an autopsy. I just found it a little like consenting to DNA testing after the execution of a prisoner.
If the DNA confirms the dead man is guilty, well its payday. If not, there are all types of excuse you can use to say its inconclusive.
Michael Schiavo can only win with an autopsy. If there is significant cerebral cortex, he can just claim it wasn't functioning.
You play poker much?
Now ask Michael if he'd take this bet. If an autopsy shows significant cerebral cortex, you stand trial for concpiracy to commit murder. I think if that was looming there, he wouldn't want to "prove" anything. But as is, he can only win, so how is that noble?
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Tweety, Michael Schiavo isn't gambling. Her brain is 80% gone and replaced by fluid. I saw the scans.
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Just catching up (believe it or not, I skip over some post)
>>What you're doing here is making a 'straw man' argument. You may have missed the cat scans that ALREADY show the brain damage<<
You are so wrong. I have addressed the limited value of CT scans in a few post. CT scans are a preliminary test. NO disease is confirmed by a CT scan. PET scans are a step up, and more accurate that a CT scan. When one is suspected of cancer the tests go like this, xray, CT scan, PET, biopsy.
In Terri's case a biopsy is not practical ( Michael is shooting for it with the autopsy) but a PET scan was practical but refused by Michael. No doctor would rip open a patients chest in search of cancer with just a CT scan. He would order a PET scan first, and then a biopsy. The CT is one of the first tests, but here we are treating it as a final test. We're gonna kill a woman with just a CT scan, and we're going to try to justify it after with an autopsy. But NO one is wondering why Michael isn't asking for PET?
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>>Tweety, Michael Schiavo isn't gambling. Her brain is 80% gone and replaced by fluid. I saw the scans.
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You saw a CT scan (more accurately one slice of a CT scan which means about nothing. You don't read one page of a book and claim you've read the book). A CT scan is a sophisticated test - 20 years ago. It falls woefully short and thats why things like MRI, fMRI and PET were developed.
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I just heard on the news that she passed away....
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This has a few ways to play out but really lets try to keep the "spin off of it.
The autopsy results so no significant cortex remaining, obvious conclusion.
The autopsy shows significant cortex, really the same conclusion based on the years of no improvement and lack of cognitive behavior. Just because the equipment is present does not mean it works. Ask any para or quadraplegic.
Now please note I am not saying para and quadraplegics are in the same situation. Do not extrapolate anything into the example given.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>> I see nothing similar or nothing that would even come close to being on topic. <<
Thats exactly right, you don't see much, but you speak loudly.
Have you ever wondered that you don't fully understand the implications of a left brain injury? Have you ever even heard the term "prisoner in his own body"?
You don't see how this fits and I'm supposed to be patient with you?
1)Have I ever wondered that I dont fully understand the implications of a left brain injury??? Explain how that relates to Terri Having had 80% mush in her brain... What she had was no left brain injury.
2)Yes I have heard the term.
3)I could care less of your patience.
4)The PET scans would be worthless as she can not do what is required to perform them. See my above posts but again you pick and choose your information and provide no links to stuff you quote.
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Inflammatory
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Tweety.
I don't mean this as anything but as an observation... It seems you're kind of busted up over this. Which is perfectly cool.
I don't mean to pry, and don't answer if you don't want to, but have you made any changes in your life...... whether it be wrt family relationships, some sort of spititual awakening, volunteering, family planning.... any sort of proactive get-out-there-and-affect motions?
Or has it all been just..... effect?
For all I know, you are already the Mother Teresa in some slum. Either way... what's your investment?
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You are VERY right I'm busted up about this. I am absolutely furious about this.
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So....
(and still just outta curiousity)
When you take stock of your reaction, and compare it to those who may seem ambivelent, what would you say the difference is?
Why do you think it is that you are having this reaction and others do not?
What, if any, changes will your life take as a result?
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...and holy... I am sucking at the english language right now..
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>>When you take stock of your reaction, and compare it to those who may seem ambivelent, what would you say the difference is?
<<
What is the difference between the reaction of someone who feels strongly about something and those ambivlent about something?? Well, gee, I dunno, but I'd guess there's a big difference...
>>Why do you think it is that you are having this reaction and others do not?
<<
Are you still beating your wife? Your contention that no one else had been completely revolted and disgusted by the starvation of Schiavo is a blatant misprepresentation or ignorance. But I can't say or ignorant or my message may be edited.
>>What, if any, changes will your life take as a result?<<
An easy resolution. To never again take crap from stupid people.
Reserve compassion for those trying to help other and give those trying to manipulate others an 11 1/2 up the arse.
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Ah..
Mmkay....
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"The Schiavos and Schindlers moved in together, sharing a house in St. Petersburg Beach as they devoted themselves to Terri Schiavo's care. In June 1990, Michael Schiavo was appointed his wife's guardian, and months later, he took his wife to California for an experimental, but ultimately unsuccessful, treatment to stimulate her brain.
Terri Schiavo was later placed in a nursing home in Largo where Michael Schiavo was strict with and sometimes hostile toward staff, according to court transcripts.
"His demanding concern for her well-being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as 'a nursing home administrator's nightmare,' " wrote Jay Wolfson, a court-appointed independent guardian for Terri Schiavo who had no say in her case but researched it in 2003.
Michael Schiavo even went to nursing school with the goal, his brothers say, of better caring for his wife."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/217692_families26.html
Tweety, have you read what the Schindlers had to say about what they thought of Michael as a husband a guardian during the malpractice suit?
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Inflammatory
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The veggie died, no big deal.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Thrawn, I will not waste time arguing if the facts don't support my case. Oh, and I love cheese.
Wow, that was out of left field...
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This may encourage you
looking in from the outside (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4400865.stm)
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"It seems Michael Schiavo wants proof of the extent of his estranged wife's brain damage. "
is there any truth to this statement that they were estranged? IE they were divorced or seperated when she was injured?