Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: tapakeg on March 31, 2005, 03:06:26 PM
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story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7349099/)
Not really apologizing, but says the trip was a mistake. I just might Tivo 60 minutes this Sunday
Tapakeg
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Does anyone really care what she has to say anymore...if ever...I would not waste the effort to tape her..in fact I have wasted way too much time on the subject already...:rolleyes:
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Sounds like a publicity stunt.
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I'm just waiting for her to pass on so I can pisss on her grave.
:D :aok
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Originally posted by Sandman
Sounds like a publicity stunt.
I was thinking the same thing. I am debating seeing her new movie. It looks good (jennifer lopez) and it looks like something I can watch with my wife,
BUT,
I will not pay to see this woman on any big screen. I bet they're worried that her "rep" might effect the bottom line.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Sounds like a publicity stunt.
Read the story, she's trying to sell her new book.
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**** that dried up old ****.
SHe should have been hung for treason.
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I agree..If justice were served when it was supposed to be served...she would be apologizing from prison...or years ago as her last word just before her execution.
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I detest the actions she took in Vietnam and believe she should have been deported. However, she was pretty hot in Barbarella. Not that that's any excuse of course.
What was that other movie she was in... about the nuclear plant meltdown reaching the water table, oh yea the China Syndrome. That film helped destroy the US nuclear industry after 3 mile island. She really has a consistent record of being a bad citizen. I vote she needs a good spanking... in public. Of course I haven't seen her in a while... is she still hot?
Regards,
Malta
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She was passed a note from a Prisoner when she was shown the American Prisoners, which she promptly gave to the North Vietnamese.
Gee....just ask Sen. McCain what he thinks?
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McCain has forgiven, I think you all can take a lesson from him.
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To borrow a quote from Bill Cosby, this is just an old person trying to get into heaven
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I'm just waiting for her to pass on so I can pisss on her grave.
I do too, but I hate waiting in lines.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
McCain has forgiven, I think you all can take a lesson from him.
Oh nevermind
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Originally posted by midnight Target
McCain has forgiven, I think you all can take a lesson from him.
LOL the difference is that MCcain served his country with honor and was a POW for many years .
Come on MT you are smarter than that.
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Originally posted by wombatt
LOL the difference is that MCcain served his country with honor and was a POW for many years .
Come on MT you are smarter than that.
along the same lines as what I was going to say
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You guys crack me up.
All the more reason for him to be bitter..... yet he is not.
Get a grip and think before you post.
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Oh MT I always enjoy your posts from the other end of the spectrum...However wether she has been forgiven by one soldier or not...what she did was a crime...one which she got away with and has never been punished for...I've posted alot about injustices in our great nation..and this is just another example.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You guys crack me up.
All the more reason for him to be bitter..... yet he is not.
Get a grip and think before you post.
MT I have no problem with admitting that I will never by half the man John MCcain is.
He is a true gentleman to forgive her I simply can not.
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Originally posted by Hajo
She was passed a note from a Prisoner when she was shown the American Prisoners, which she promptly gave to the North Vietnamese.
Gee....just ask Sen. McCain what he thinks?
Not true. Snopes it.
The most serious accusations in the piece quoted above — that Fonda turned over slips of paper furtively given her by American POWS to the North Vietnamese and that several POWs were beaten to death as a result — are proveably untrue. Those named in the inflammatory e-mail categorically deny the events they supposedly were part of.
"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him, saying, "I never met Jane Fonda."
OTOH, there's PLENTY of things she DID do that are more than reason enough to dislike her.
To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars."
Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players.
These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
Forgive is one thing, like/tolerate is another.
I dislike her. Intensely. But I can forgive her for being a young, stupid Hollywood c*nt that played right into the hands of the NV.
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Why does everbody assume snopes is the final authority on everything?
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It's not only Snopes that "outed" this one. It's all over. The POW's themselves have said it wasn't true in various interviews.
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Originally posted by AWMac
I'm just waiting for her to pass on so I can pisss on her grave.
:D :aok
Was down at Yuma air station in 87, all the urinals in the NCO club had her picture in em :)
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
Was down at Yuma air station in 87, all the urinals in the NCO club had her picture in em :)
shamus
I've used those same urinals. I wasn't born but 10 years after her stunt - **** her.
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Originally posted by Toad
It's not only Snopes that "outed" this one. It's all over. The POW's themselves have said it wasn't true in various interviews.
There was a part of it that was true.
The story about a POW forced to kneel on rocky ground while holding a piece of steel rebar in his outstretched arms is true, though. That account comes from Michael Benge, a civilian advisor captured by the Viet Cong in 1968 and held as a POW for 5 years. His original statement, titled "Shame on Jane," was published in April by the Advocacy and Intelligence Network for POWs and MIAs.
Dang I was right though, She's doing this to promote herself wether it be book or movie, history repeats itself:
In 1988, sixteen years after denouncing American soldiers as war criminals and tortured POWs as possessed of overactive imaginations, Fonda met with Vietnam veterans to apologize for her actions. It's interesting to note that this nationally-televised apology (during which she attempted to minimize her actions by characterizing them as "thoughtless and careless") came at a time when New England vets were successfully disrupting a film project she was working on.
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
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Yeah, Guns... but look at WHAT was true:
"When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with her.
I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as 'humane and lenient.'
Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel re-bar placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped.
Benge didn't meet with Jane; they didn't let him.
When he announced to his captors that he planned on telling her how horrid conditions in North Vietnamese prison camps really were, he got the "treatment".
So you can't really blame Jane for this guys treatment. He could have just declined to meet or not told them his intentions. Either way, he could have still gotten the "treatment", of course.
However, the way he did this, given the brutality typical of all Communist captors, almost insured he'd get hammered.
Mind, you, I'm not defending Jane at all.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Why does everbody assume snopes is the final authority on everything?
Prove 'em wrong... on anything. Go ahead... give it a try. ;)
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I won't spend a penny to buy or see anything she is in or involved with. As far as I am concerned she needs to relocate to the little paradise she visited when she was photgraphed.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Prove 'em wrong... on anything. Go ahead... give it a try. ;)
:rofl
Karaya
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Originally posted by Sandman
Prove 'em wrong... on anything. Go ahead... give it a try. ;)
Prove em right:aok
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Ditto what Mav said
cars
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Originally posted by Maverick
I won't spend a penny to buy or see anything she is in or involved with. As far as I am concerned she needs to relocate to the little paradise she visited when she was photgraphed.
Braves fans would surely pay dearly. Glad I'm not one. AMEN Maverick!
Karaya
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Good thing Barbarella is on cable! I wouldn't pay to see her eather..but since I already pay for cable and she happens to be on it..thats still okay right?
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Originally posted by Shamus
Was down at Yuma air station in 87, all the urinals in the NCO club had her picture in em :)
shamus
Go into any PX or NX and try and find her exercise/arobic tapes....Been removed years ago.
:aok
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This makes what......about the 20th time she has tried this? Seems like every time she needs a little publicity they throw this out.
I mentioned it in another thread some time ago, but in my biker supply business, one of my best selling jacket patches was the " Jane Fonda American Traitor *****" patch. Things sold like hotcakes.
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Most of you guys weren't even alive when she did this, and out of those that were alive, how many of you were in Viet Nam?
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I think the Vietnamese seem to be doing OK these days!
Pity they had the French and Then the US blowing the sh*t out of them for so long. just goes to show what an absence of Warfare can do for a country's wellbeing!
;)
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I am sure all the dead from South vietnam who got exacuted by the commies when the US pulled out agree with you.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You guys crack me up.
All the more reason for him to be bitter..... yet he is not.
Get a grip and think before you post.
Now MT, this is like when Voss was posting crap and wouldn't admit it.
She was crazy stupid and it took her this many years to somewhat admit it.
If she had just admitted she was stupid years ago most people wouldn't harbor such anger.
No one likes a bastard but people will not forgive an unrepenting bastard.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I think the Vietnamese seem to be doing OK these days!
Pity they had the French and Then the US blowing the sh*t out of them for so long. just goes to show what an absence of Warfare can do for a country's wellbeing!
;)
Oh yea, Vietnam is the next vacation spot of the world.
Can a statement possibly get any lamer?
.............
Well yea, I believe it can and I believe you are just the dork for the job Zulu.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Most of you guys weren't even alive when she did this, and out of those that were alive, how many of you were in Viet Nam?
Would it matter. Supporting anything this woman does TO ME would be betraying ANYONE who ever wore the Uniform.
That's just my opinion though.
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She's a traitor c*nt, but I still jerk it to Barbarella lolh:rofl
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Would it matter. Supporting anything this woman does TO ME would be betraying ANYONE who ever wore the Uniform.
That's just my opinion though.
She is a disgrace not only to those who have worn the uniform, but to any patriotic U.S. citizen.
There is also way more here than he thinks that were alive when this happened, but a disgrace and out and out treason knows no time limits. Her picture splattered across the cover of a magazine sitting behind the gunsite of an enemy anitaircraft gun is enough to turn your stomach on the biatch.
Also there is a lot of folks that don`t particualrly like to discuss their time in this tropical paradise.
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Actualy Vietnam makes a good holiday destination. Featured a couple of times on TV shows here and plenty of History for when you get bored of the beach.
Cuba isn't bad either. I know a couple who are honeymooning there!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Actualy Vietnam makes a good holiday destination. Featured a couple of times on TV shows here and plenty of History for when you get bored of the beach.
Cuba isn't bad either. I know a couple who are honeymooning there!
Yes, I can see where either is perfect for ya there Zulu.
You should feel right at home in either a communist or a communist puppet country.
As an added extra bonus the cash you spend there could possibly get funneled to where it could be used against The Evil U.S. Empire that you are so jealous of.
All in all it would be a good trip for ya.
Please take it and don`t forget to visit the uncleared battle fields. :D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You guys crack me up.
All the more reason for him to be bitter..... yet he is not.
Get a grip and think before you post.
Bitter? Hell I'm not bitter, I just want to get near the front of the line to piss on her grave. It's going to be a long one. You could make a fortune selling beer. Mc Cains going to run for President. He is just using it to get the wuss vote.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Actualy Vietnam makes a good holiday destination. Featured a couple of times on TV shows here and plenty of History for when you get bored of the beach.
Cuba isn't bad either. I know a couple who are honeymooning there!
Remind that honeymooning couple to tip the help where no one can see them....all hard cash goes directly to Fidel. If he does an extra good job of bringing in Euros, he may get an extra chicken this year. Nice for the honeymooners,dirt cheap...the servants that wait on them are trying to put together enough cash to buy an innertube and float away from the Communist Paradise.
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Originally posted by wombatt
Prove em right:aok
The slimy ***** gave aid and comfort to the enemy.....by any idiots definition that is Treason. By some Morons definition on this board, aid and comfort to the enemy is patriotism.
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Originally posted by weaselsan
The slimy ***** gave aid and comfort to the enemy.....by any idiots definition that is Treason. By some Morons definition on this board, aid and comfort to the enemy is patriotism.
You missed it. Try again... trace the quotes.
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She's not all bad, she says she did threesomes with husband #1... she says she even recruited the other women...
As for the Vietnam thing... f****** c***
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funny thing is i got banned (BGBMAW)in here for starting the hanoi lists..names of people who try to destroy thsi country..you knwo...Boxer-Feinstien..Kennedy..ect..
disgusts me..
Hanoi Jane..ya..we will always rememebr this one
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
funny thing is i got banned (BGBMAW)in here for starting the hanoi lists..names of people who try to destroy thsi country..you knwo...Boxer-Feinstien..Kennedy..ect..
disgusts me..
Hanoi Jane..ya..we will always rememebr this one
Why would you get banned for listing traitors to the USA?
edit: After looking up the thread I see why...nevermind.
edit2: The Name BGBMAW does not have the "persona non grata" next to it that all banned people get..so your other personality may not be banned after all.
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(http://www.winisp.net/ptaylor/images/inigo_montoya.jpg)
"You keep saying 'treason'... I do not think it means what you think it means".
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Blameing Jane for the torture that was infliced on US airman is kind of silly. Her letting her self be used by the North was pretty stupid. Her using her name and fame to try and show the US what its airforce was doing in north vietnam was a good idea. One that had its intended effect and contributed to the saving of many lives that apperenlty some of you would still be takeing and throwing away.
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Airhead said
Most of you guys weren't even alive when she did this, and out of those that were alive, how many of you were in Viet Nam?
Speaking as a 100% disabled, service connected, rated permanent and total, Viet Nam veteran, theres no forgivness from here. That rich ***** is living well. VA disability pension isn't much compensation. How much is 37 years of YOUR life worth? I have yet to have a day when I forget. Nope, not gonna forget OR forgive ANY of her ilk EVER. Bitter? You better ****ing believe it.
cars
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Originally posted by cars
Airhead said
Most of you guys weren't even alive when she did this, and out of those that were alive, how many of you were in Viet Nam?
Speaking as a 100% disabled, service connected, rated permanent and total, Viet Nam veteran, theres no forgivness from here. That rich ***** is living well. VA disability pension isn't much compensation. How much is 37 years of YOUR life worth? I have yet to have a day when I forget. Nope, not gonna forget OR forgive ANY of her ilk EVER. Bitter? You better ****ing believe it.
cars
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Originally posted by midnight Target
McCain has forgiven, I think you all can take a lesson from him.
A politician doing his best to garner the vote of the socialists that inhabit our country. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want a true opinion of what she did, ask the people that were there that aren't in politics.
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cars
and thank you for your service....I'd love to sit down and swap stories with you, and yeah, a VA disability pension ain't much to live on.
Basically I'm addressing those who feel Jane Fonda should have been tried for treason and imprisoned....and she was tried, she was tried in the Court of Public Opinion and sentanced to a lifetime of contempt- as it should be.
I joined the military and helped fight for and safeguard the rights of Jane Fonda, The Dixie Chicks, and the common flag burner that they might have the right to protest.
Treason? If we want to start putting people on trial for treason then I can think of a few hundred elected officials who take special intrest money and pass legislation knowing it's not for the common good- let's start with them.
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Airhead
.........thanks for your service. Gotta admit I agree with your last post. Court of public opinion is as it was and should be. I'm simply saying, to me her apology is very hollow and self serving. I won't forgive as long as I can take a breath or until she honestly apologizes. I was willing to put my life on the line to guarantee she could sit on that gun, as did both my mother and father before me and all those who have ever served and still serve. I would never ask that anyone be tried for treason for being, IMHO wrong.
cars
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cars..Salute..and thank you
F Hanoi Jane
ASTAC..ya..i was just banned form O club....I know..I included some memebrs names form here also..I still feel the same way about those ..."folks"
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There she is on "60 Minutes," simpering about her failed relationship with her stoic father.
There she is in the Washington Post, detailing her past bouts with bulimia and lingering body image problems. (Which haven't damaged her enough to prevent her from posing for publicity photos: "Oh, God! Side lighting is not so good for me," the suffering Fonda orders the photographer.)
There she is in The New York Times. And Time magazine. And on "Good Morning America," blabbing about her bizarre trio of ex-husbands and their various pathologies. Adultery. Alcoholism. Prostitutes. Group sex. Blecchh. Aging hippies never learn. As college students, they had no appreciation of the value of self-restraint. Decades later as senior citizens (Jane Fonda is a 67-year-old woman prattling on, Howard Stern-style, about threesomes, for heaven's sake), they still have no appreciation of the value of discretion.
Unless there are big bucks involved, that is.
And now, Hanoi Jane is everywhere, everywhere, issuing what many in the mainstream media have characterized as a so-called apology for her betrayal of American troops in Vietnam.
The New York Times reports: As she has before, Ms. Fonda apologizes for being photographed laughing and clapping while sitting on an antiaircraft gun in Hanoi. (She writes that she absent-mindedly sat down in a moment of euphoria with her North Vietnamese hosts, and adds, ''That two-minute lapse of sanity will haunt me until the day I die.'')
On "60 Minutes," she moans: I will go to my grave regretting that. The image of Jane Fonda, 'Barbarella,' Henry Fonda's daughter, just a woman sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal. It was like I was thumbing my nose at the military and at the country that gave me privilege.
"Like" she was thumbing her nose? The woman delivered numerous broadcasts on Radio Hanoi claiming tortured POWs were in "good health," calling her own president a "new-type Hitler" on enemy airwaves, and accusing American pilots of being "war criminals."
Vietnam veterans see clearly through Fonda's ploy -- yet another insult to the memory of fallen American troops. Walter Inge wrote in a letter to the editor of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Despite repeated claims, Hanoi Jane Fonda has never apologized for her treasonous collaboration with the Vietnamese Communists. Writing that it was 'a betrayal' and 'a lapse of judgment' is a confession, not an apology.
Henry Mark Holzer, co-author of "Aid and Comfort: Jane Fonda and North Vietnam," was more blunt on MSNBC's "Scarborough Country" this week: "She committed treason. She exploited and misused American POWs. She gave the North Vietnamese communists, with whom we were then at war, propaganda that American POWs endured unimaginable torture not to give them, she gave it to them for free. And, indeed, she caused the deaths of American fighting men and the deaths of our allies as well."
Meanwhile, Fonda's fellow Hollywood hippie leftover, Peter Yarrow, traveled to Vietnam last week "ready to get down on my knees as one American and say, 'Please forgive us'" -- a sentiment with which the unrepentant Fonda -- who has yet to apologize for those treasonous radio broadcasts -- no doubt concurs.
No mind. Fonda's cynical non-apology "apology" keeps making headlines, just as she and her book publicists had hoped. This isn't about making amends. This is about making money.
Me! Me! Me! Hanoi Jane rides again.
Michelle Malkin is a syndicated columnist and maintains her weblog at michellemalkin.com ©2005 Creators
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Originally posted by stantond
I detest the actions she took in Vietnam and believe she should have been deported. However, she was pretty hot in Barbarella. Not that that's any excuse of course.
What was that other movie she was in... about the nuclear plant meltdown reaching the water table, oh yea the China Syndrome. That film helped destroy the US nuclear industry after 3 mile island. She really has a consistent record of being a bad citizen. I vote she needs a good spanking... in public. Of course I haven't seen her in a while... is she still hot?
Regards,
Malta
Both movies I seen and they were pretty good movies, especially Barbarella. Kind of wacked out and appears to be made especially for stoned tripped out hippies, but still good.
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Jane Fonda News (http://www.channelcincinnati.com/entertainment/4397174/detail.html)
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I heard a Vet spit a big 'ol wad of chew directly in her face from just a couple of feet away.....great shot! He waited for over 90 minutes in line at a book signing just to be able to "make his statement". Served her right
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Sorry, didn't read sandman's post
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No kidding? :D
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that traitor ***** is worthless
has anyone even brought up in this thread the possible military information she supposedly gave to the VC during her "visit" ?
let's see snopes prove that wrong.
as for mccain... i dont trust him saying that. he was running for president for chrissakes. a candiate will say anything in that arena, AND you really think he'd say something that possibly might PO "hollywood"???
gimme a break.
<--- waits in line to piss / puke / drop fecal matter on her grave
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What kind of "military information" could a thirty-five year old actress have?
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Someone said "threesome" ???
Jackal, you're obviously Zulu's new pet... "here boy, sniff this bone...fetch!" :D
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Originally posted by wombatt
LOL the difference is that MCcain served his country with honor and was a POW for many years .
Come on MT you are smarter than that.
So...if HE can forgive, why can't someone, like myself for example, who never served, at least entertain the idea of forgiving her?
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He "forgives" her because it will further his political position of being a moderate.
In my opinion anyone who gives aid to the enemy should NEVER be forgiven.
But if you choose to forgive then that is your opinion and I for one would not hold it against you.
Not at first anyway.:p
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Originally posted by Mighty1
He "forgives" her because it will further his political position of being a moderate.
Yeah, there is that. Didn't think of it. Now I'll have to reconsider my decision.
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They just had the spitter, Michael A. Smith, on TV- he said he spit on her "for all Vietnam veterans."
Well, thank you but no thank you Mr. Smith- what you have done is help to continue to pertripate the myth of Viet Vets being anti-social dirtbags with this-grosest of protest actions.
It's unfortunate Jane Fonda didn't press charges against you for this assault- you need a time out of, oh, say- eighteen months in County.
Disgusting behavior, not condoned by any Viet Vets here, I'll bet- only the angry little wannabees seem to be OK with this.
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They just had the spitter, Michael A. Smith, on TV- he said he spit on her "for all Vietnam veterans." Well, thank you but no thank you Mr. Smith- what you have done is help to continue to pertripate the myth of Viet Vets being anti-social dirtbags with this-grosest of protest actions.
It's unfortunate Jane Fonda didn't press charges against you for this assault- you need a time out of, oh, say- eighteen months in County.
Disgusting behavior, not condoned by any Viet Vets here, I'll bet- only the angry little wannabees seem to be OK with this.
Yes I'm sure all the Vets near you right now are cheering for Jane to have a speedy recovery from her tragic experience while promoting her book on how she wasn't sorry for anything she said or did to those same Vets.:rolleyes:
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Ya know, there were quite a few vets who got spit on themselves, some were just returning from their tour or released from the service. Seems only fair that fonda should experiance it as well. Hell I experianced it and hadn't even served in Nam, didn't phase the spitter, I just had a uniform on.
Other than that I agree that it was a bit over the top. A pie in the face would have been better but that is treserved for other political statements I suppose.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Ya know, there were quite a few vets who got spit on themselves, some were just returning from their tour or released from the service. Seems only fair that fonda should experiance it as well. Hell I experianced it and hadn't even served in Nam, didn't phase the spitter, I just had a uniform on.
Other than that I agree that it was a bit over the top. A pie in the face would have been better but that is treserved for other political statements I suppose.
A pie in the face may have been more appropiate, as it makes a political statement without being over the top, but spitting is just vile and disgusting- especially to spit in someone's face.
All Mr. Smith does is make Vets look vindictive, angry and anti-social- in other words he perpetrates a 35 year old myth.
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Sorry but it seems to me the anti-war protesters were the ones that were vindictive, angry and anti-social-.
I've never thought of vets in a bad way.
But then again I'm not a liberal. I see things the way they are while liberals see things any way they want to.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Sorry but it seems to me the anti-war protesters were the ones that were vindictive, angry and anti-social-.
I've never thought of vets in a bad way.
But then again I'm not a liberal. I see things the way they are while liberals see things any way they want to.
OK, let me tell you "the way it is-" Spitting is vile, disgusting and speaks poorly of the very same people he claims to have spoken for by this act of (being kind here) "protest."
If you wish to see this as a black and white, liberal vs. conservative issue, like you see every issue, then you're missing the bigger picture- Vets should be dignified, not spitting on people.
Mr. Smith doesn't represent me- he's a disgusting emberassment to Vets.
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Originally posted by Airhead
OK, let me tell you "the way it is-" Spitting is vile, disgusting and speaks poorly of the very same people he claims to have spoken for by this act of (being kind here) "protest."
If you wish to see this as a black and white, liberal vs. conservative issue, like you see every issue, then you're missing the bigger picture- Vets should be dignified, not spitting on people.
Mr. Smith doesn't represent me- he's a disgusting emberassment to Vets.
It wasn't just spit....IT WAS CHEW SPIT. The guy was quoted as saying ne normally doesnt chew tabacco but did for this occasion.
As a vet. I'd wait in a mile long line to shake this guys hand. I do the same for the oppertunity to spit on Jane Fonda......I'd do the time for it to!
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Originally posted by Airhead
Mr. Smith doesn't represent me- he's a disgusting emberassment to Vets.
No he may be an emberassment to you but to other vets he did a good thing.
BTW just because I see things black or white doesn't mean I "Miss" anything.
I just don't try to look at everything in a touchy feely way.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
As a vet. I'd wait in a mile long line to shake this guys hand.
As would I! :aok
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My uncle served in the 'Nam, I was too young. I asked him this morning if he heard about the spitter becoming the spittee. He said they guy was probably over the line but added that he was glad he wasn't there because he'd have spit that tobacco juice on a nade for lube before ramming it up her...nevermind.
Forgiveness is a gift granted by the offended only when the offender is deemed to be honest in their expressions recanting past actions, not when the "remorse" is thinly veiled and only issue during a book tour.
Rot in hell Hanoi Jane, and take Ted with you!
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Originally posted by Mighty1
I just don't try to look at everything in a touchy feely way.
I don't either Mighty1- I look at more as becoming what we despise.
If this type of protest is to be condoned as being legitimate then I guess what you're saying is those people who spit on returning Vets were just as justified to spit on them as Mr. Smith was to spit on Jane Fonda.
I just can't buy that- like I said, a pie in the face I would have chuckled at- but spitting is over-the-top, regardless of who's spitting and why.
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Just wait a couple more years and pi** on her grave.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Just wait a couple more years and pi** on her grave.
Got a feeling that might be a long line. lol
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Originally posted by Airhead
....spitting is just vile and disgusting- especially to spit in someone's face....
I think you missed the point. :D
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
My uncle served in the 'Nam, I was too young. I asked him this morning if he heard about the spitter becoming the spittee. He said they guy was probably over the line but added that he was glad he wasn't there because he'd have spit that tobacco juice on a nade for lube before ramming it up her...nevermind.
Forgiveness is a gift granted by the offended only when the offender is deemed to be honest in their expressions recanting past actions, not when the "remorse" is thinly veiled and only issue during a book tour.
Rot in hell Hanoi Jane, and take Ted with you!
Man... I love you! :D
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I'm an angry, vindictive, anti social dirtbag and proud of it. I thought you were OK with the court of public opinion airhead. She's not in jail is she? she should be thankful. I hope more vets show up at her book signings to show her some "public opinion".
Thank you Mr. Smith
cars
edit: I wish I could help him pay his fine.
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My problem with mr. Smith is that he ran off after he spit.
How much more would it have meant if he looked her in the eye as she wiped off and said, "I hope you will accept my humble and sincere apology."
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Why does everbody assume snopes is the final authority on everything?
Because they do a lot of research, certainly more than the people/email blathering on about whatever bit of misinformation they are passing along. They are rarely if ever, wrong. ;)
Woof
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Originally posted by Airhead
I don't either Mighty1- I look at more as becoming what we despise.
If this type of protest is to be condoned as being legitimate then I guess what you're saying is those people who spit on returning Vets were just as justified to spit on them as Mr. Smith was to spit on Jane Fonda.
I just can't buy that- like I said, a pie in the face I would have chuckled at- but spitting is over-the-top, regardless of who's spitting and why.
I just think it's overdue payback for what she did.
BTW why is a pie in the face OK? It's the same sh|t!
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No I was never in the service, but Jane still ticks me off. It did back then, and it still does, it will till she's gone.
Its one thing to hold a dissenting opinion.
Its quite another to take that to the enemy, to be a traitor to your own country in thought if not in deed.
People in the public eye should hold themselves to a higher standard. They are after all examples to millions of people.
Same as the Dixie Chicks when they made some unfavorable comments. No one says they couldn't think what they choose.
But don't run down your country when it counts. Hanoi Jane, Dixie chicks, etc will never see a dime from me. Frankly she deserved to be spit on. I just wished it would happen wherever she goes.
Put her in the same cells our boys lived in for years. Feed her the same diet.
THEN after a year or 2, I think you'd sese a REAL apoligy.
This one is all media hype.
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I just wonder how many of the Jane haters would pay money to meet a Nazi air ace? Or how about one of the pilots who dropped an armor piercing bomb on the Arizona?
You guys crack me up.
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You can't see the difference between soldiers on the opposing side and someone on your side that gives aid and comfort to the enemy?
You crack me up.
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Originally posted by Airhead
I don't either Mighty1- I look at more as becoming what we despise.
If this type of protest is to be condoned as being legitimate then I guess what you're saying is those people who spit on returning Vets were just as justified to spit on them as Mr. Smith was to spit on Jane Fonda.
I just can't buy that- like I said, a pie in the face I would have chuckled at- but spitting is over-the-top, regardless of who's spitting and why.
Airhead... I gotta ask this.... were you personally injured, in any way, by anything that Jane Fonda has done? My impression is, like me, you were not. You were not a soldier fighting for your county while a hollywood brat used her celebrity status to attempt to demoralize you and your fellow soldiers in the field.... and boost the moral of your enemies that are trying to kill you.
Maybe I'm wrong and you were one of those soldiers... but I don't think so. I think that you really have no reference for how a lot of those people feel. I can understand how you can feel that this was outrageous.... but in truth... if she sincerly attempted to heal those wounds, instead of just put a band-aid on it everytime she wants to make a buck... it would go a lot further towards these people forgiving.
IMO.... Jane Fonda is one of the perfect examples of how screwed up the 60's generation was..... They had something noble to say about how they felt about the establishment and it was their right to say it and even try to change it.... but they chose, in mass, to expressed it by taking drugs (to show their defiance) and attacking soldiers. And like the childeren they were acting like, they didn't get heard... they were just tollerated until they burned themselves out.
(steps off of soapbox)
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Originally posted by mosgood
Jane Fonda is one of the perfect examples of how screwed up the 60's generation was..... They had something noble to say about how they felt about the establishment and it was their right to say it and even try to change it.... but they chose, in mass, to expressed it by taking drugs (to show their defiance) and attacking soldiers. And like the childeren they were acting like, they didn't get heard... they were just tollerated until they burned themselves out.
(steps off of soapbox)
I'm "sixties generation".
Just a heads up; you posted a generalization. In general, you're wrong. ;)
The media likes to give the impression that every kid in the country was wearing tie-dyed shirts, wearing beads and long hair, smoking dope and waving the peace sign.
In truth, there was a little of that. In fact, in some places, there was a LOT of that. There may have even been a few places where EVERYONE was like that.
However, taken overall, it was just the old "bell curve". There were a very few at both extreme ends of the spectrum and most of us were somewhere in the great mass in the middle.
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Originally posted by Toad
I'm "sixties generation".
Just a heads up; you posted a generalization. In general, you're wrong. ;)
The media likes to give the impression that every kid in the country was wearing tie-dyed shirts, wearing beads and long hair, smoking dope and waving the peace sign.
In truth, there was a little of that. In fact, in some places, there was a LOT of that. There may have even been a few places where EVERYONE was like that.
However, taken overall, it was just the old "bell curve". There were a very few at both extreme ends of the spectrum and most of us were somewhere in the great mass in the middle.
OK. I thought about that when I wrote this... and my parents and their friends WERE those hippies so I guess that's where I get that impression
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Do you guys have as much vitriol to throw at the leaders on your own side who started, perpetuated and escalated the conflict as you do for one dumb and misguided woman who was trying to end it?
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Originally posted by mosgood
Airhead... I gotta ask this.... were you personally injured, in any way, by anything that Jane Fonda has done? My impression is, like me, you were not. You were not a soldier fighting for your county while a hollywood brat used her celebrity status to attempt to demoralize you and your fellow soldiers in the field.... and boost the moral of your enemies that are trying to kill you.
Maybe I'm wrong and you were one of those soldiers... but I don't think so. I think that you really have no reference for how a lot of those people feel. I can understand how you can feel that this was outrageous.... but in truth... if she sincerly attempted to heal those wounds, instead of just put a band-aid on it everytime she wants to make a buck... it would go a lot further towards these people forgiving.
IMO.... Jane Fonda is one of the perfect examples of how screwed up the 60's generation was..... They had something noble to say about how they felt about the establishment and it was their right to say it and even try to change it.... but they chose, in mass, to expressed it by taking drugs (to show their defiance) and attacking soldiers. And like the childeren they were acting like, they didn't get heard... they were just tollerated until they burned themselves out.
(steps off of soapbox)
(sigh) Mosgood, I'm a Viet Vet, did one year in-country 1970-71....and I feel this fact is irrevelent when it comes to acceptable behavior. No, I won't be waiting in line to get a book signed, but at the same time I won't be waiting in line to spit on her either.
At NO POINT did I condone or excuse what Jane Fonda did in Hanoi in 1972, but, as usual, a bunch of you dip ****s will twist a statement like "spitting is vile and disgusting" and turn it into "You love Jane Fonda."
Oh, as a member of the 60s generation I must inform you that you're full of **** on that one too- as a matter of fact there was LESS drug abuse, and LESS (i mean, like NONE) casual sex than there is among young people today. We did sports, went to proms, tuned our Chevys in Auto Shop, and met at the lake for kegger parties on Saturday nights- pretty tame stuff compared to what kids are doing today.
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Yup!
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Originally posted by Airhead
(sigh) Mosgood, I'm a Viet Vet, did one year in-country 1970-71....and I feel this fact is irrevelent when it comes to acceptable behavior. No, I won't be waiting in line to get a book signed, but at the same time I won't be waiting in line to spit on her either.
At NO POINT did I condone or excuse what Jane Fonda did in Hanoi in 1972, but, as usual, a bunch of you dip ****s will twist a statement like "spitting is vile and disgusting" and turn it into "You love Jane Fonda."
Oh, as a member of the 60s generation I must inform you that you're full of **** on that one too- as a matter of fact there was LESS drug abuse, and LESS (i mean, like NONE) casual sex than there is among young people today. We did sports, went to proms, tuned our Chevys in Auto Shop, and met at the lake for kegger parties on Saturday nights- pretty tame stuff compared to what kids are doing today.
Like I said... maybe I'm wrong. Airhead... this is the second thread in a row that you have been totally defensive and construed something I've said into an attack on you. I never said "You Love Jane Fonda". I said that you might not have the same reference that others might have. Drama can be entertaining... is that what your goal is here? because you seem to like to turn a lot of my opinions into a dramatic scene where you feel attacked.
what's up?
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Originally posted by Momus--
Do you guys have as much vitriol to throw at the leaders on your own side who started, perpetuated and escalated the conflict as you do for one dumb and misguided woman who was trying to end it?
Yeah, I do. I think Bob McNamara should have been hung. I think LBJ should have been impeached. Nixon had his faultsf or sure but he's the one that got us out of there eventually.
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Originally posted by Airhead
[Bpretty tame stuff compared to what kids are doing today. [/B]
You said it better than I did. But the truth isn't as ded saxxy is it? The media is bored with the truth. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
You said it better than I did. But the truth isn't as ded saxxy is it? The media is bored with the truth. ;)
I gotta tell ya that I've really always been under the impression that a lot of the 60's generation were a bunch of hippies and drug users. This is new info to stick in my pipe to smoke :)
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I went to Kansas, which was considered a pretty "radical" campus at the time. Some clowns tried to burn the ROTC building, for example.
Maybe 10% of the student body were into the long-haired-beads-flowered-peace-love-dope and understanding thing.
Your real life experience must be telling you this is the truth.
You know it's never 100% of anything; there's always the bell curve. Think of the hippies as the "early adopters".
(http://software.ericsink.com/bell.gif)
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Originally posted by mosgood
Like I said... maybe I'm wrong. Airhead... this is the second thread in a row that you have been totally defensive and construed something I've said into an attack on you. I never said "You Love Jane Fonda". I said that you might not have the same reference that others might have. Drama can be entertaining... is that what your goal is here? because you seem to like to turn a lot of my opinions into a dramatic scene where you feel attacked.
what's up?
Sorry if it seemed I was getting personal Mosgood- it's a subject I don't like, and one that I should avoid. And drama sucks.
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FWIW,
I am on another bbs of retiree's. There is a secondary portion of it set aside for Veterans. The current post feeling is 100% in support of the spitter. No one has posted a singel word in support of jane. Perhaps those Vets on that bbs who would feel sympathetic to her just don't want to post but to date there are no kind words thee for her. Nope, I didn't post on it either, I just looked the thread over.
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Originally posted by tapakeg
story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7349099/)
Not really apologizing, but says the trip was a mistake. I just might Tivo 60 minutes this Sunday
Tapakeg
Now that sentiment has changed we should go back to Vietnam and kick out the Commies.
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Originally posted by Toad
You can't see the difference between soldiers on the opposing side and someone on your side that gives aid and comfort to the enemy?
You crack me up.
Of course there's a difference. Just noting two types of people who did things in their youth that they may not be proud of today. The degree of forgiveness of the people on this BBS would be much higher for a Nazi than for Jane.
OK then... would you spit in the face of Tokyo Rose? I bet (if she were alive) some of the Jane haters on this BBS would pay money to hear her speak.
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Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW,
I am on another bbs of retiree's. There is a secondary portion of it set aside for Veterans. The current post feeling is 100% in support of the spitter. No one has posted a singel word in support of jane. Perhaps those Vets on that bbs who would feel sympathetic to her just don't want to post but to date there are no kind words thee for her. Nope, I didn't post on it either, I just looked the thread over.
This is why I don't like talking about this- right away it becames an issue of "supporting" Jane Fonda instead of an issue over rather spitting on someone- ANYONE- is acceptable behavior.
It was wrong, classless and portrays Veterans in a negative light- and it has nothing to do with Jane Fonda and everything to do with the actions of Michael Smith.
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I heard that Airhead shot Staga when he was in the 'Nam.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Oh, as a member of the 60s generation I must inform you that you're full of **** on that one too- as a matter of fact there was LESS drug abuse, and LESS (i mean, like NONE) casual sex than there is among young people today. We did sports, went to proms, tuned our Chevys in Auto Shop, and met at the lake for kegger parties on Saturday nights- pretty tame stuff compared to what kids are doing today.
Heh... I don't know where you were. Me and my ilk pretty much drank, drugged, had casual sex with multiple partners, girlfirends, other people's girlfriends (sometimes in the same day) right up until about 1978. We did drugs, drank and went to proms, Worked on and raced our Cars, met at the beach and out in the woods for parties from hell complete with about everything you could think of including handguns. I'm suprised any of us are still alive. And I sure as hell didn't want to go to Nam.
Woof
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Originally posted by Curval
I heard that Airhead shot Staga when he was in the 'Nam.
Vietnam wasn't a game Curval. What posessed you to make a statement like that?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of course there's a difference. Just noting two types of people who did things in their youth that they may not be proud of today. The degree of forgiveness of the people on this BBS would be much higher for a Nazi than for Jane.
OK then... would you spit in the face of Tokyo Rose? I bet (if she were alive) some of the Jane haters on this BBS would pay money to hear her speak.
Apples and oranges.
Nobody forced Hanoi Jane to do what she did. Therefore I'll have to cancel any boo-hoo's for her at this time.
Besides, right or wrong, "Tokyo Rose" (Iva Ikuko Toguri) paid the price for her actions, as opposed to getting rich off of them.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Vietnam wasn't a game Curval. What posessed you to make a statement like that?
You don't need to tell me that mate...my wife got out in 1975.
It was an attempt at humour...obviously it failed.
No disrespect meant.
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Heya Curv,
How old was your wife?
how does she feal about the whole thing? The war and the pullout etc?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Blameing Jane for the torture that was infliced on US airman is kind of silly. Her letting her self be used by the North was pretty stupid. Her using her name and fame to try and show the US what its airforce was doing in north vietnam was a good idea. One that had its intended effect and contributed to the saving of many lives that apperenlty some of you would still be takeing and throwing away.
Using that logic, any well meaning American that went to Germany or Japan or France during world war two, to sit on an 88 with a big grin on their face, to show solidarity with the German people and point out the thousands of innocent women and children that where being killed by the US Airforce would have been saving lives. Then they could have come back and brought Nazi propoganda to further "Aid and comfort the enemy". It sure sounds logical to me.
The peoples representatives. The Congress and the Senate, and the President make those decisions. If their wrong they can answer to the people. We don't need two bit actresses giving aid and comfort to the enemy to point out S**t.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Heya Curv,
How old was your wife?
how does she feal about the whole thing? The war and the pullout etc?
She was 10 years old at the time.
Difficult to say really...she doesn't talk about the war much. I'll ask her if you like.
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Originally posted by Curval
She was 10 years old at the time.
Difficult to say really...she doesn't talk about the war much. I'll ask her if you like.
Yeah, ask her if she thinks America was doing the right thing fighting against the communist north.
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so I see a colonel swear on his life that Hanoi Jane passed the notes from P.O.W.'s to the torture commanders?
I really think a physical assualt would ok'd by me. She is a disgusting traitor still in our country...
Nothen liek a punch in the nose to remind her of the pain and torture she not only cuased our soldiers but there family and friends
ya...punch in the nose,,,every other month
wonder if shes signgn books up here soon
i may need to start defense fund
and MT..you are off your rocker..you comparing soldiers to civilians?...lolol..wow
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Gren Clooud,
The slips of paper bit is an urban legend. Look at the posts in the beginning of the thread and the snopes link is there. The Colonel described in the legend stated that did not happen.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Vietnam wasn't a game Curval. What posessed you to make a statement like that?
It occurred to me that Lye-El may not know the back up to what I said.
Lye-El:
Airhead, the resident AH BBS troll and great Latin American type fellow, claimed he shot down Staga twice in AH recently. Staga vehamently denied this and even had "proof" as he hasn't flown in months by way of the logs. His protestations simply fueled Airhead's desire to keep up the charade,
(It all relates to Airhead's hatred of all things European, especially Staga)
Now...fast forward a couple of days and Nuke posts proof that Staga was indeed online over at the Check6 Forums in the form of screenshots (Staga is banned from that forum and unable to respond). It was all a photoshop "job", but quite funny.
In a separate thread over there Airhead challenged Midnight Tahgut to a one-on-one basketball game....first one to reach 11 wins. He then claimed to have played Staga some time ago and beat him 11-0.
THAT is the basis for what I said and again it was just an attempt at humour.
So...carry on.
LOL...the very next thread I opened this morning illustrates the ongoing Airhead vs Staga saga -
Here (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148888)
GTO..I'll asked the wife and she will post later.
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it is a pity that Abrahms didn't take over sooner. He won the war in vietnam with less resources than westmoorland used to screw it all up. Winning wasn't enough tho.. by then, people were so against it that we had to give it back to the north while breaking all our promises to the south... the south fought on with no support and still did a decent job for years with no equipment to speak of.
The reason I didn't go was because.... one, I was selfish and two... I had no idea why we were there and was suspicious when no one would or could come up with a logical reason... but mostly... It became apparent early on that westmoorland and the government were content to simply trade casualties with no real plan for winning or turning over the country to the vietnamese until Abrams took over and..... His polices (which worked) were never made public. His successes were ignored by the press and promised made were broken at the negotiating table.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
it is a pity that Abrahms didn't take over sooner. He won the war in vietnam with less resources than westmoorland used to screw it all up.
Dude...:confused: ....what Vietnam War were you watching?
Woof
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Originally posted by Curval
(It all relates to Airhead's hatred of all things European, especially Staga)
Staga's OK- he's uptight cause he hasn't seen the sun for several months. He'll be normal by July 4th.
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to Michael Smith, the gentleman that spit in her face at the book signing. Far cry from what she truly deserves.
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Originally posted by EN4CER
to Michael Smith, the gentleman that spit in her face at the book signing. Far cry from what she truly deserves.
I was drafted and I do not <> or condone the behavior or this poor representative of an American male.
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Silat, quit talking like a commie. :D
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A wad of tabbacco juice in the mug was just what she deserved.She led to more than a few troops getting spit on returniong home.I say a loogie in the eye for a loogie in the eye. :)
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snopes does not prove she did not turn notes over to torture commandrers...
I beleive Hackworth
Shes a traitorous maggot..
Bulldozer Time
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"She lauded the North Vietnamese military and citizens while she denounced American soldiers as "war criminals" and urged them to stop fighting, she lobbied to cut off all American economic aid to the South Vietnamese government even after the Paris Peace Accords ended U.S. military involvement in Vietnam, and she publicly thanked the Soviets for providing assistance to the North Vietnamese. And she did all this not as a reckless youth who rashly spouted ill-considered opinions now best forgotten, but as a 34-year-old adult who should be expected to bear full responsibility for her actions."
ya classy
rumble rumble..bullldozer
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Was Hackworth actually there?
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skywolf... the war is "won" when 90% of your land is secure. Abrams had kept the North so far down in supplyu that they were unable to mount an effective attack for 3 years. Local security forces were in control of their own areas 400,000 farmers were owners of 2.5 million acres of land and tenancy was ended... no rocket strikes were made on the capitol for 2 years.
why? what war were you watching? A good book to read on the subject is one toad told me about.
"A Better War" by Lewis Sorley a third generation West Point graduate and holder of a doctorate from Johns Hopkins.. He served on staff at the pentagon for the Army and later as a senior advisor for the CIA.
Westmoorland simply went on search and destroy missions with body count the only thing important (I am sure you "watched" that)... Abrahms was into training the people and holding territory... and... stopping supply from and for the north. He succeded wildly and his tactics can be seen in Iraq I believe.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
skywolf... the war is "won" when 90% of your land is secure. He succeded wildly and his tactics can be seen in Iraq I believe.
lazs
You are correct in the fact that I've never read anything on the war. I just grew up watching it, hearing about it from relatives and friends who were there, and Hiding from it in college.
It's interesting to think that we won it. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. I was aware that we had done some things successfully, but for the most part I thought we had our hands tied by a bunch of ridiculous rules and were mired in a body count trading clusterf__k (also as seen in Iraq). It also seemed at the time that we pulled out after pretty much having our oscares handed to us. At least that was the preception at the time. (yes... I'm older than dirt).
Woof
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Originally posted by Curval
It occurred to me that Lye-El may not know the back up to what I said.
THAT is the basis for what I said and again it was just an attempt at humour.
Curval, I did not make the connection that you had referenced your comment to. In retrospect, I was out of line.
I am not a Vietnam vet although I did volunteer for the Army in 1975. After all of these years, a lot of things about that time frame still pisses me off. Hence, I comment when I should let it go by. Sorry.
On another note, I watched Hanoi Jane on Bill Mayhers show last night. She is just as unrepentant now as she was then. I got the impression that she even took Mayhers by surprise with her attitude when he was asking her questions.
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skywolf... read the book. It is not a quick read but if you, like me, grew up listening to the news of the war and avoiding being in westmoorland and the bright boys in politics meatgrinder... It will be a breath of fresh air.
Even John Paul Vann felt that the war was won by '72. It took a monstrous effort to turn it into a loss.
lazs
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Curval, I did not make the connection that you had referenced your comment to. In retrospect, I was out of line.
You weren't out of line....in order to know all that stuff you would have had to be a very regular follower of this O'Club AND Check6. If I was reading the thread without this knowledge I might have reacted the same as you.
Gto/Nuke
My wife has been sick with a bad cold all weekend and my oldest son had an astmah attack again on Sunday morning at 1.00am, followed by another during the day on Sunday.
Stress levels were high this weekend and my wife's list of priorities didn't even have responding to this post on it.
I'll bug her about it later...when she is less stressed.
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Thanks Curv, whenever she has time is cool with me.
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.
Woof
You have been watching too much of the traditional media. They were always the ones talking about our "failures" and minimizing our successes. Going along with the government line doesn't make for good copy, don't you know?
The fact is that the Viet Cong were almost completely eliminated as a viable force in South Vietnam by 1970. The North changed tactics, and infiltrated regular forces into the south, forces we destroyed in masses. The South Vietnamese troops took over most field work by 1972, as we pulled forces out. And they were successful in defending their own country.
The 1975 back-stabbing we pulled was incredibly dishonorable, in my opinion. We refused to help our allies, and violated our treaty with them.
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
You are correct in the fact that I've never read anything on the war. Woof
May I suggest A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam by Lewis Sorley. Available on Amazon.
I believe it will significantly change your view.
Using a host of oral interviews, 455 tape recordings made in Vietnam during the years 1968-1972 and numerous other sources, military historian Sorley has produced a first-rate challenge to the conventional wisdom about American military performance in Vietnam.
Essentially, this is a close examination of the years during which General Creighton Abrams was in command, having succeeded William Westmoreland. Sorley contends that Abrams completely transformed the war effort and in the process won the war on the battlefield.
The North Vietnamese 1968 Tet offensive was bloodily repulsed, he explains, as was a similar offensive in 1969. Together, the 1970 American incursion into Cambodia and a 1971 Laotian operation succeeded in reducing enemy combat effectiveness.
Renewed American bombing of the North and Abrams's use of air power to assist ground operations further reduced Hanoi's ability to wage war. Sorley argues that the combination of anti-war protests in America and a complete misunderstanding of the actual combat situation by the diplomats negotiating the 1973 Paris accords wasted American military victories.
In spite of drug use and other problems, Sorley maintains, the army in Vietnam performed capably and efficiently, but in vain, for South Vietnam was sold out by the 1973 cease-fire, America's pullout and the failure of Congress to provide further military assistance to the South.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
McCain has forgiven, I think you all can take a lesson from him.
Not necessarily. McCain is a politician. What he says may not be what he thinks. It may what he wants his constituents to think of him.
IMHO she was and is a traitor to the USA. Many people in the US argued against the war but did not give aid to our enemy's. That's the difference.
Who was it who said, "do not forget the past, lest ye are doomed to repeat it"?
Eventually she too will pass into history. Hopefully everyone will remember her for the traitor she was.
Ren
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
It's interesting to think that we won it. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.
By 1972 or so, with the popular opinion of the American public as close to unanimous as ever possible favoring our withdrawal...the only thing close to a win was to force the north to come to a negotiated peace during the Paris accords. All attempt at getting them to negotitate had been failing for many years before we bombed them and their supply lines into near oblivion. Had we done that in 1964 things MIGHT have been different.
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oops..not Hackworth,,
but Col Hunt,
ya..traitorous maggot..\
she did turn over notes from pow's
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
oops..not Hackworth,,
but Col Hunt,
ya..traitorous maggot..\
she did turn over notes from pow's
What is your proof. Only incident I have read about was false.