Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: NUKE on March 31, 2005, 06:16:28 PM
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Last week President Fox warned at a Mexico City press conference:
"We totally reject the idea of these migrant-hunting groups. We will use the law, international law and even U.S. law to make sure these types of groups, which are a minority, will not have any opportunity to progress."
Notice how he refuses to call them illegals or acknowledge that what they are doing is illegal? This issue is going to reach a boiling point with Americans and something may finally be done about it.
Well, now Mexico seems to have put one thousand Mexican troops across the Arizona border.....I wonder if these troops will be used help get the illegal aliens into the U.S. :lol
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/31/134212.shtml
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Let them try it.
You're going to defend your citizen's rights to illegally enter the U.S., sap taxes and education and work from us with your Army?
Do it! I DARE YOU FOX!
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Why is this guy so keen on people leaving his country...maybe if he was worth a crap as "el presidente" he might try to make some actual changes to his own corrupt stinkhole and make it better for his people.
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Put a few tanks on the border along with some A-10s from DM and see how far Mexican Army plans to go. I'm sure they'll make a move onto US soil to protect their illegals "rights". :lol
They'll waste man power to make sure they can get their illegals into our country but they won't waste them to keep the bastards out.
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Maybe the Mexican army is there more to make sure the drug traffic keeps flowing through the Mexican government/military sponsored smuggling routes.
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ASTAC wouldn't surprise me one bit. Especially considering these people only planned to track and report the where abouts of these illegals entering the country until they were detained.
So why would they need to put up a show of military force on our borders to protect their illegals entering our country? Must mean a little bit more to them than to ensure their illegals get across "safely".
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There is no vigilante action on the minutemen's part either...they are going out there unarmed.
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Mexican army:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Aparently, Mexico is still upset about the whole Texas thing.
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LOL wombatt, thats what i was thinking. Fricken Mexicans, funny people they are.:rofl
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Oh don't get me wrong.
I love the Mexican people.
It's there corrupt government I have issues with.
Mexicans are descendent's of the Mayans and they were a very advanced couture we owe our 365 day year and calendar to them.
Among many other things.
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As much as I support our president on most issues..This immigration thing is just wrong..Our leaders and theirs want us to lie down and just let anybody come here, not have to pay taxes (because they are paid illegally) but have all the rights as a citizen..they even get on welfare and they want to give then social security too? Too bad we can't be vigilantes and just sit on the boarder and shoot on sight.
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Originally posted by wombatt
we owe our 365 day year and calendar to them.
Julius Caesar changed the European calendar to 365 1/4 days in 45 BC with no knowledge to the Mayan people.
The Mayan Calander ends December 21st, 2012 AD for some reason.
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That would actually be funny to see the Minute men get killed by the "enemy''.:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Is Mexico considered a 3rd world nation ? Or would I be considered 1/2 caused by a reduction in population.
(Was funnier in my head)
Seriously, is it really a 3rd world country ?
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Mexico is a democracy. Yay, Democracy!
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Julius Caesar changed the European calendar to 365 1/4 days in 45 BC with no knowledge to the Mayan people.
The Mayan Calander ends December 21st, 2012 AD for some reason.
http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-mayan.html
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Damnit, I came into this thread expecting a photoshopped picture, instead I get some serious story. I demand a refund of the 10 seconds I spent reading and replying to this thread.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Is Mexico considered a 3rd world nation ? Or would I be considered 1/2 caused by a reduction in population.
(Was funnier in my head)
Seriously, is it really a 3rd world country ?
I may be wrong here and will defer to anyone who spends the time looking it up, but the 1st, 2nd and 3rd world distinctions are from the Cold War Era...
US, NATO, etc = 1st world
USSR, Warsaw Bloc = 2nd world
Everyone else = 3rd world
3rd World countries came to mean poor and underdeveloped b/c if they had any economic clout, they would've picked a side (and the benefits of a sugar daddy like the US or USSR)
That's my first approximation...
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20 million Americans should emigrate to Mexico illegally, then demand full rights as Mexican citizens. They should also demand free medical care, tax free paychecks, driver's licenses and a retirement plan.
Of course the Mexican gov't wouldnt like that at all, and would probably threaten us with more of their army. ;)
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If the police extort money from you as the day to day way of doing business, you may consider it a third world country. Mexico s a third world country.
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Originally posted by Elfie
20 million Americans should emigrate to Mexico illegally, then demand full rights as Mexican citizens. They should also demand free medical care, tax free paychecks, driver's licenses and a retirement plan.
Of course the Mexican gov't wouldnt like that at all, and would probably threaten us with more of their army. ;)
what's funny is that Mexico gaurds it's southern border, yet complains that we want to guard ours.
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there's oil in mexico.
right?
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Originally posted by OIO
there's oil in mexico.
right?
Mexico = 51st State? :D
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Canada is #52 then.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Canada is #52 then.
Well, would each province become their own state? Or the whole country as one state? :D
I forget....how many Provinces in Canada?
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Originally posted by Elfie
I forget....how many Provinces in Canada?
Who cares ? (kidding)
Canada would be seperated into 2 states, the lower part with actual people in it, and the northern part with polar bears and seals.
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The seals would be for clubbing, right?
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Yup.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Who cares ? (kidding)
It would be 2 states, the lower part with actual people in it, and the northern part with polar bears and seals.
:rofl
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Well, I've done my part. Today I saw some Mexicans stealing fruit right off the trees, and when I shot at them they dropped thier buckets full of fruit and guess which direction they ran off to?
That's right- SOUTH- right back to the safety of Vicente Fox and the Mexican Army....which, even as we speak, is massing on our borders, preparing to invade Arizona.
Now before we all grab our deer rifles and shotguns to repel the invaders, let's think this through- What if all the Mexicans want is Arizona? That wouldn't be so bad, would it? Arizona is nothing but cactus and desert, and if we could get the Mexicans to agree to limit migration to Arizona then I say we give up Arizona and make Puerto Rico a State...Puerto Ricans, per capita, are younger, work for less money and Puerto Rico has trees without stickers on them.
Plus if we annex Puerto Rico at the same time we give up Arizona then we won't have an issue with trying to design a 49 star flag.
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Your bait is sized to catch minnows, Airhead.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Well, now Mexico seems to have put one thousand Mexican troops across the Arizona border.....I wonder if these troops will be used help get the illegal aliens into the U.S. :lol
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/31/134212.shtml
Funny how Vincente never had enough troops to stop illegal immigration...
Sigh, so tell me again Mr. President why I had to go through the whole Green Card, go to this city, get fingerprinted, fill out this form, pay this fee, stand in this line, get this form stamped, go get photographed, nope those photos won't work, get new photos whoops - its expiring, do it again thing?
Am I not elligible for most favored alien status if I'm not from Mexico? Its the bad teeth thing isn't it?!
Racists!
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Lizking
Your bait is sized to catch minnows, Airhead.
Yeah, I know...I was fishing for Nuke. If I wanted to catch lunkers I woulda said the Mexicans were massing at the Texas border and we should give them that state.
;)
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Can you say "self-serving political pandering"?
culero (I thought so)
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problem is I have no faith in our president to respond or do anything about it. He is taking fox's throat yogurt like its oxygen.
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Pfft, Fox enforcing the border?
Heck it workes out good for him, he's getting rid of the ones he doesnt want and they become our problem.
Forget the Minutemen, get some Civil War re enactors out there..and to really shake em into sealing that border up, Hawklore's lil paramilitary group! :p
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Mexican MBT's gearing up.
(http://www.muttmotorpool.com/mexican.jpg)
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Is that real?
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Who cares ? (kidding)
Canada would be seperated into 2 states, the lower part with actual people in it, and the northern part with polar bears and seals.
Being that you live in Buffalo, i can understand your desire to see it so.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Is that real?
Of course not- that's an old shot of Iraqi jeeps. Mexican Jeeps have little itty bitty wheels, diamond tuck interiors and fuzzy dice hanging from the rear view mirror.
Now put your weapon back on safety, Mister.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Of course not- that's an old shot of Iraqi jeeps. Mexican Jeeps have little itty bitty wheels, diamond tuck interiors and fuzzy dice hanging from the rear view mirror.
Now put your weapon back on safety, Mister.
Don't forget about the hydraulics and chrome rims.
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Originally posted by wombatt
... and they were a very advanced couture....
Jean Paul Gautier is Mexican too ? :D
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Mexico has a lot of natural resources and a corrupt government.....kind of like Russia and the USSR.
We need tp get the national guard to seal our borders as much as is humanly possible. We don't need the illegal Mexicans.
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Do we have enough National Guard to stand from Texas to California at a double arm interval?
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Think about how much US taxpayer money is being spent to spread democracy abroad, in the hope that Sharansky's thesis in his book "The Case for Democracy" will prove correct.
Then consider, Mexico, the poster child for dysfunctional, corrupt governments-- and it's a democracy. In our own backyard.
Is our borrowed money being spent wisely? Maybe Natan Sharansky isn't so smart after all.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Mexico has a lot of natural resources and a corrupt government.....kind of like Russia and the USSR.
We need tp get the national guard to seal our borders as much as is humanly possible. We don't need the illegal Mexicans.
Agreed that we don't need the illegals, but the way you suggest accomplishing the goal is stupid, on several levels.
If you don't put bait on a hook, fish won't take it. Eliminate the bait (illegal employment) and the problem will go away. Its as simple as enforcing the laws we already have. If we'd quit allowing people to get away with HIRING illegals we wouldn't have the problem.
culero
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culero, believe it or not its easier to deploy a military presence across the entire border ...and cheaper.... than to enforce laws on several millions of citizens inside the US who employ illegals for cheap labor.
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Originally posted by culero
If we'd quit allowing people to get away with HIRING illegals we wouldn't have the problem.
culero
Lovely sentiment, but you do realize that then we'd be holding people accountable for their actions? That's sorta un-American, isn't it?
I'm sure that some manufactured or harvested inanimate object MADE the employer higher the illegals. Thus, we must ban..... lettuce.... to solve this problem.
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Originally posted by OIO
culero, believe it or not its easier to deploy a military presence across the entire border ...and cheaper.... than to enforce laws on several millions of citizens inside the US who employ illegals for cheap labor.
Agreed, especially if you suspend the Bill of Rights in order to make it easier for that military presence to do its job.
But I don't want to live in that sort of society.
Sig Heil!
culero
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Originally posted by LePaul
Pfft, Fox enforcing the border?
Heck it workes out good for him, he's getting rid of the ones he doesnt want and they become our problem.
Forget the Minutemen, get some Civil War re enactors out there..and to really shake em into sealing that border up, Hawklore's lil paramilitary group! :p
Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt.....
:rofl
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Originally posted by OIO
culero, believe it or not its easier to deploy a military presence across the entire border ...and cheaper.... than to enforce laws on several millions of citizens inside the US who employ illegals for cheap labor.
WOW!!!!!! :eek:
I'm glad that's settled :rolleyes:
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this whole thing is reaching a flashpoint pretty quick. Truthfully while I dont want to see any more mexicans crossing over into our boarders, I also dont want to see anyone getting killed over it all too.. There has to be a way we can come to peaceful resolution. Once you start deploying troops, gun fights are only a jump, hop and a skip away.
The illegal immigrants have become a huge problem in Atlanta. Right outside where I work is Chamblee Ga. Five years ago it was a nice upper middle class area. Now it is refered to as "little mexico" Half the ppl driving dont have licences, there are tons of car crashes, ppl getting hit by cars. It is sad really. I have to watch my P&Qs on my 5 min drive from I-85 off into the airport.
When you go down into Chamblee it looks like a mess. There are ppl hanging out on street corners, kids playing in the street. It looks like a getto. It is sad really.
I have two vehicles, I have stopped driving my pickup truck becuase every time I stop at the Mc Donalds down the street from my job I am rushed by mexicas jumping in. No S--t They open the doors, pile into the back and climb all over the place. I had some lumber in the back because I was redoing my deck, so I guess they figured I needed some help. I have a CCW here in the state of Ga, so I almost always have my pistol on me. On this day I found myself pulling it out. Lucky for me a buddy of mine a MARTA cop saw what was happening and pulled up. I holstered my weapon and he moved them along. However he didnt arrest them. There was no point. How sad.
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Originally posted by Regular
That would actually be funny to see the Minute men get killed by the "enemy''.:rofl :rofl :rofl
WTF???:(
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yep... all that is needed is to have a national 5 day waiting period/background check for all hires. Mandatory 1 year sentance and fine for any employer who hires illegals knowingly.
several things could be done on the benifiets thing also.
seagoon.. I will admit that the main reason for the brits being discrimnated against is the dental hygene thing... the other thing is that brits speak a semi understandale form of english and tend to voice their opinion on politics... and there is the perception that you are all gay.
All of this is unfair of course and there are several brits who aren't like that at all but... life is not fair.
lazs
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Originally posted by Kegger26
There has to be a way we can come to peaceful resolution.
Yea, there is a "meeting of the minds" for discussion and the resolution of this problem and has been for quite some time.
The first 5 years were spent debating when and where the discussions would be held.
The next 10 years were spent debating who should be eligible to enter the discssions.
The next 5 years were spent debating who should be seated where at the discussions.
The next 5 years will be spent debating on what food and refreshments will be served at the discussions.
I figure by that time there will be a need for at least a 5 year debate on if the decison to have the discussions to begin with was the correct choice.
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If this breaks out into violence, and if the mexican army voilates our border, how much you want to bet the Bush admin, will A: Do nothing about it, B: Prosecute the minutemen, not mater who started it and C: Go on letting ilegals suck this country dry.
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There is no vigilante action on the minutemen's part either...they are going out there unarmed.
This is incorrect. They are allowed to carry sidearms. I'm wondering just how different people interpret the word "sidearm".
heheh go Minutemen!
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GtoRA2,
I think Bush would do nothing about it - 1) they are cheap to employ and so business owners can make more profit by hiring illegals, and 2) they have no oil.
Why do you think he would do nothing?
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Because Bush has a hardone for ilegals.
He has been trying to sell out this country to that **** Fox since day one as president.
I am not sure why he is so pro ilegal, but he is.
Worst liberal president we have had in years.
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Everything Bush does is either for a) business or b) Christian right.
Hiring illegals has got to be good for business - they can pay them peanuts and don't have to pay SS tax on them.
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The Minuteman volunteer organizers have stated they expect 1500 volunteers to show up for this weekends effort.
The ACLU has claimed they will be sending 200-300 volunteers to watch the Minutemen.
The U.S. Border Patrol will be beefing up their numbers with about 150-200 additional agents in the area.
The media reports that there could be up to 200 media personell in the area to cover the events.
Man I gotta tell you, there are gonna be so many ***** people down there this weekend no one is gonna be crossing the border. Mabye we should just keep coming up with ideas to get thousands of people along the border, the added attention will do more to keep people on their side of the border than anything else.
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Man I gotta tell you, there are gonna be so many ***** people down there this weekend no one is gonna be crossing the border.
About damned time.
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Originally posted by RTStuka
The Minuteman volunteer organizers have stated they expect 1500 volunteers to show up for this weekends effort.
The ACLU has claimed they will be sending 200-300 volunteers to watch the Minutemen.
The U.S. Border Patrol will be beefing up their numbers with about 150-200 additional agents in the area.
The media reports that there could be up to 200 media personell in the area to cover the events.
Man I gotta tell you, there are gonna be so many ***** people down there this weekend no one is gonna be crossing the border. Mabye we should just keep coming up with ideas to get thousands of people along the border, the added attention will do more to keep people on their side of the border than anything else.
Whay is the ACLU getting involved....It's the AMERICAN civil liberties uunion..designed to make sure our rights as outlined by the constitution are upheld....not Mexican Rights who have NO protections under our constitution whatsoever.
I can't believe that this group of unarmed citizen observers is being called a vigilante group by our own government. Just another nail in our own coffin I think.
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Puerto Ricans, per capita, are younger, work for less money and Puerto Rico has trees without stickers on them.
They also have some of the highest Hiv/aids rates per capita in the Hemisphere..
I guess you dont call yourself Airhead for nothing...
:p
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Whay is the ACLU getting involved....It's the AMERICAN civil liberties uunion..designed to make sure our rights as outlined by the constitution are upheld....not Mexican Rights who have NO protections under our constitution whatsoever.
I can't believe that this group of unarmed citizen observers is being called a vigilante group by our own government. Just another nail in our own coffin I think.
Probably because of the ACLU can raise a stink about it, sue people, and go on TV to be attention potatos, they'll get involved.
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Who can they sue when no one protected by their "values" is harmed?
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Who can they sue when no one protected by their "values" is harmed?
Have you seen some of the lawsuits the ACLU has filed? It's like they don't even need a legal reason to do it, they just file lawsuits to piss people off and drain their victim's pockets.
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I don't think a shooting war is the answer (well... the only answer).. We could do it with a lot less bloodshed if we just jailed a couple hundred sleazy employers.. but still...
Be pretty neat if a bunch of ACLU sissies got caught in the crossfire tho.
lazs
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i been watching this pot simmer for awhile.
President Bush, during a recent meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox (search), denounced such "vigilantes."
"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America and for enforcing law in a rational way," Bush said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152212,00.html
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yep more proof bush is a avacado.
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I read that the Mexican Air Force spotted a UFO the other day.
CAN YOU BELEIVE THAT????
Mexico has an AIR FORCE?????????
I bet they fit about eight of them in the cockpit!
-larry the cable guy
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Julius Caesar changed the European calendar to 365 1/4 days in 45 BC with no knowledge to the Mayan people.
The Mayan Calander ends December 21st, 2012 AD for some reason.
The Mayan calender is supposed to be more accurate than the calendar we use now.
And maybe this could shed some light as for the Mayan Calendar end date.
Mayan Calendar end date Dec, 21, 2012 (http://www.crawford2000.co.uk/maya.htm)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by culero
Agreed that we don't need the illegals, but the way you suggest accomplishing the goal is stupid, on several levels.
If you don't put bait on a hook, fish won't take it. Eliminate the bait (illegal employment) and the problem will go away. Its as simple as enforcing the laws we already have. If we'd quit allowing people to get away with HIRING illegals we wouldn't have the problem.
culero
Somehow this little gem of logic has been lost in this thread.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by oboe
2) they have no oil.
Why do you think he would do nothing?
Wrong. Mexico has quite a substantial oil reserve in the Yucatan region as well as natural gas.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Mayan calender is supposed to be more accurate than the calendar we use now.
And maybe this could shed some light as for the Mayan Calendar end date.
Mayan Calendar end date Dec, 21, 2012 (http://www.crawford2000.co.uk/maya.htm)
ack-ack
I've read about the Mayan Calendar before, interesting stuff.
Although a few nights ago the whole situation had me laughing my arse off because some hippy was on AM talk radio in my area trying to tell listeners that 2012 would be the end of all cities and industries and that the "psychedelic way of life" (his words) would replace it.
It was funny because everytime someone called in to ask a question, he'd give some completely un-related answer and just confuse the host and the caller.
Honestly, if that crackpot was right, I don't want to live after 2012. Seriously.
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im starting my hydro romaine lettuce trays now...
I hope salads go to 5$ a head of lettuce..
SECURE OUR BORDERS!!!
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Somehow this little gem of logic has been lost in this thread.
ack-ack
yes but the problem is the "people" Every time you try to enforce or make new immigration laws the Mexican constituents freak out and cry racism.
No politician can survive in the "border states" without the latino vote and you WILL lose it if you appear hard on illegal immigration.
Pretty sad actually if you ask me but that's the nature of the beast.
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Originally posted by bigsky
i been watching this pot simmer for awhile.
President Bush, during a recent meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox (search), denounced such "vigilantes."
"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America and for enforcing law in a rational way," Bush said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152212,00.html
I think placing the term "vigilante" for this group would be a pretty far reach.
It`s more like a neighborhood or community watch group on a broader scale.
Sensationalism can make a mountain out of a mole hill.
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Jackal1,
You have a point about the molehill situation but there is another consideration. It brings MASSIVE publicity into an area tired of mere lip service. There is a heck of a problem on the communities nearest the border and all those that live in 10 miles of it. Ranchers are being forced out of business as livestock is stolen, killed or run off when the fences are cut. THe fence just repaired an hour ago can be found cut again on the way back. This isn't just the border fence, this is several miles inside the US border.
The Western states are going bankrupt over medical coverage, education and simple welfare of illegals. Most don't pay the taxes you'd expect of a citizen to cover these services because they'd then be in the system and vulnerable to detection.
Some are GOOD folks and are just looking to feed their family. I had an Uncle who used to hire them to help work his ranch. Several years ago he couldn't get any more to work, they just ripped him off of his belongings.
There is a more disturbing trend in the last 10 years of rather undesirable folks. Those looking to just steal, rape and run drugs here. It is just getting worse and the Border Patrol is losing badly. They have neither the resources or manpower to do anything about it. At best they try to spot large groups in the desert and get them water before they die in the heat in the summertime.
Maybe the publicity will help get more to them to work with. Until the Mexican get their own countrymen to stay home with decent jobs and a way to keep their families safe. I doubt seriously it will happen in our lifetime. Pity.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
yes but the problem is the "people" Every time you try to enforce or make new immigration laws the Mexican constituents freak out and cry racism.
No politician can survive in the "border states" without the latino vote and you WILL lose it if you appear hard on illegal immigration.
Pretty sad actually if you ask me but that's the nature of the beast.
Eye on the ball, eye on the ball. The solution isn't about immigration, its about employers. We wouldn't have the illegal immigration problem if we eliminated the illegal jobs. All we have yo do is work on what's wrong on this side of the border.
culero (you apparently didn't read what you replied to)
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Originally posted by lazs2
snip
seagoon.. I will admit that the main reason for the brits being discrimnated against is the dental hygene thing... the other thing is that brits speak a semi understandale form of english and tend to voice their opinion on politics... and there is the perception that you are all gay.
All of this is unfair of course and there are several brits who aren't like that at all but... life is not fair.
lazs
You're not being entirely fair. You should point out that while they are gay, at least they are predominately pitchers (they have the French to be catchers ;))
culero
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Originally posted by culero
Eye on the ball, eye on the ball. The solution isn't about immigration, its about employers. We wouldn't have the illegal immigration problem if we eliminated the illegal jobs. All we have yo do is work on what's wrong on this side of the border.
culero (you apparently didn't read what you replied to)
Yes I did read it. I was referring to the fact that a politician who appears tough on illegals will not get the Mexican vote. If that's cracking down on employers and actually enforcing the laws we allready have or writing new ones he wont get RE/Elected.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
There is no vigilante action on the minutemen's part either...they are going out there unarmed.
According to the article I read, no one was dissuading any of them from carrying personal firearms, and they interviewed at least one carrying a .38 revolver who made it sound like it was fairly common amongst their numbers to have guns for self defense.
Not to make it sound like they are encouraging people to carry guns, because they arent. I applaud their efforts. They have already drawn the interest of Aryan groups though. And regardless of whether the Minutemen project shuns them or not, if a few of those idiots show up down there and start shooting up the place, tempers are going to flare and its going to hurt their cause.
Here's a link to their SOP. I wish them luck.
http://www.minutemanproject.com/SOP.html
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yes I did read it. I was referring to the fact that a politician who appears tough on illegals will not get the Mexican vote.
He also wouldn't get campaign money from the unions, and the industries that rely on illegal immigration to supply their work force.
The Hispanics aren't very well organized politically and while a possible significant influence by their votes, on average they don't vote in enough numbers to be a major influence. The current mayor of Los Angeles proved that when he get elected.
Also, the votes amongst the Hispanics are almost evenly split between Republican and Democrat. The majority are also against illegal immigration and support the efforts to stop it. What we do not condone is the underlying bigotry of such movements like these "Minutemen" and propositions such as 187 and the one that was recently passed in Arizona.
Just my dos centavos
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What we do not condone is the underlying bigotry of such movements like these "Minutemen" and propositions such as 187 and the one that was recently passed in Arizona.
Just my dos centavos
ack-ack
What bigotry? I don't want to give away one cent to any illegal and I want them all removed from the country. They do not deserve to get any public benifits from the US. Screw them all.
They do not deserve: a drivers license, to go to school.....nothing.
Basically they need to stop breaking the law and be deported out of the country. If they get caught here again, it should be tent city for a year.
I suppose you think that people who want our laws respected are bigots.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Jackal1,
You have a point about the molehill situation but there is another consideration. It brings MASSIVE publicity into an area tired of mere lip service. There is a heck of a problem on the communities nearest the border and all those that live in 10 miles of it. Ranchers are being forced out of business as livestock is stolen, killed or run off when the fences are cut. THe fence just repaired an hour ago can be found cut again on the way back. This isn't just the border fence, this is several miles inside the US border.
Yea, agreed on the fact there is a local problem in relation to the near border situations, but there is a larger problem throughout our country as a result.
If I were a rancher that owned property on the border, I believe I could handle the property damage problem.
On the other hand, at least in Texas, there are some property owners that Ummmmmm look the other way. There are quite a few places that with a little knowledge can be crossed with a pickup, etc and bam , your in.
Used to be that illegals crossing and the drug running were pesky problems and were made a token atttempt to catch a percentage of. A low percentage I might add.
With things going like they are in the world now , there is much bigger problems with the mexican border than the illegals and drug running. Some pretty serious problems such as groups using the border from other areas of the world to get their people and articles into the U.S. that could possibly do us great damage.
Mexico has become a staging point for lots of things and activities and our border is , more or less, a door frame without a door.
As far as the illegals goes, I would expect while the minuteman excercise and the influx of new homeland security personel into Arizona is going on, we will see a lot more activity on the Texas border in the very near future. The fact that it has been made evident where this is to be concentrated in the Arizona region by the open press will pretty well guarantee this.
I also know that if I were trying to get materials and people into this country from another country at this time, Texas would be my option without a doubt.
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Originally posted by NUKE
What bigotry? I don't want to give away one cent to any illegal and I want them all removed from the country. They do not deserve to get any public benifits from the US. Screw them all.
They do not deserve: a drivers license, to go to school.....nothing.
Basically they need to stop breaking the law and be deported out of the country. If they get caught here again, it should be tent city for a year.
I suppose you think that people who want our laws respected are bigots.
Your bigotry, like that of many others, is self-evident. The proof is right here in this discussion.
You are talking about a problem we all agree is a problem (illegal immigration) but you focus solely upon the immigrants themselves and harshly punitive measures against solely them as the proposed solution.
In doing so, and although its been pointed out repeatedly in the discussion (more than once in reply to your posts) you deliberately ignore the fact that the single most important causal factor in this problem is that it is common practice here on the part of US citizens to actively seek out and hire illegal illimgrants for employment.
These US citizens provide the reason illegal immigrants come here (to take these illegally provided jobs). These US citizens cause the wages they pay for these illegally provided jobs to be kept off the books for tax purposes, denying our community its fair share of tax revenue (which the illegals would certainly be glad to pay in order to have their jobs legally, I assure you). These US citizens do so in order that they may have a lower cost to themselves, and often deny other US citizens the opportunity to obtain the jobs they provide to illegal immigrants because they don't want to have to pay at least legal US minimum wage and tax share (remember, employers must contribute half of an employee's FICA and pay bookeeping costs).
We'll ignore the fact, since you obviously do not give a damn, that individuals who wish nothing more than the opportunity to earn an honest wage are being ruthlessly exploited by these US citizens. I direct your attention to the fact that rather than include enforcement of current law and even perhaps enhancements of the law designed to compel compliance on the part of employers, you seem to want to blame these wage-earners for the whole problem and seem to want to punish them only. Yet, you ignore what's much more aggregious on the part of US citizens - violation of the laws governing our tax system and our immigration system in order to have lower costs for services, and exploitation of other human beings for the same purpose.
You want to step up efforts to crack down on mostly impoverished laborers who are for the most part only seeking to earn wages in order to feed their families yet continue to ignore the fat cats here who are enriching themselves while providing THE REASON those illegal immigrants come here.
If you (and everyone else who expresses similar views, please understand I'm not singling you out personally by replying to your post) don't think you are bigoted, you need to do some self-examination, IMO.
This isn't by way of insult, BTW. I myself have been squarely where you are now, when I was much younger (I was raised to be a bigot). I've been able to rise above that. I'm trying to give you (and others) a hand up by sharing what I feel is a better understanding of ALL the factors involved, and ALL the people involved. Keep in mind when considering that the fact I've grown up living a ten-minute drive from the border and that I both speak both languages involved and interact with both classes of people I'm discussing every day of my life. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that I may have a greater fund of experience to draw upon regarding this issue than most here. I'm honestly just trying to promote better understanding, not bust chops.
culero
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Typical upstart Mexico. They here we're gonna have armed vigilantes engaging in running gun battles with gangs and immigrants around the borders, and they send the army in to make sure we don't cross into Mexico.
Come on, Americans have never violated the sanctity of Mexico's borders in its attempts to "enforce the laws".
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Originally posted by culero
Your bigotry, like that of many others, is self-evident. The proof is right here in this discussion.
You are talking about a problem we all agree is a problem (illegal immigration) but you focus solely upon the immigrants themselves and harshly punitive measures against solely them as the proposed solution.
yeah, kinda like all with criminals, I'd like to first focus first on enforcing the laws when they are caught breaking the law rather than the reasons they decided to break the law.
And they are not "immigrants", they are illegal aliens who knowingly are breaking the law are are here illegaly. When they are caught, they need to be punished.
I don't give a rat's bellybutton why they are here illegaly, they do not deserve one red cent of US taxpayer support.
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Culero, you can do both. Start punishing employers AND increase border security. We can reverse your argument and it is still true. Eliminate the illegals and the employers have to hire legal citizens and legal aliens.
I once worked for a contractor that decided to get rid of all of his American siding crews in favor of Mexicans. While we were finishing our last house, immigration showed up on the jobsite. Shoulda seen those Mexicans running. The contractor decided it wasnt worth the hassle to have to pay people to finish up the houses the Mexicans left half finished so he rehired all his American crews.
I know the pissed off American carpenter that called Immigration.
Get rid of the illegals that are here now and stop more of them from coming here and the problem is just as solved as your solution.
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Originally posted by NUKE
What bigotry? I don't want to give away one cent to any illegal and I want them all removed from the country. They do not deserve to get any public benifits from the US. Screw them all.
They do not deserve: a drivers license, to go to school.....nothing.
Basically they need to stop breaking the law and be deported out of the country. If they get caught here again, it should be tent city for a year.
I suppose you think that people who want our laws respected are bigots.
Nice job in proving my point :)
ack-ack
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hmm being against ILLEGALS is now being a bigot.
Guess you can call me a bigot to. Since I am against anything ILLEGAL.
so ack-ack. Do you like illegals in the country?
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Originally posted by Dnil
hmm being against ILLEGALS is now being a bigot.
Guess you can call me a bigot to. Since I am against anything ILLEGAL.
so ack-ack. Do you like illegals in the country?
Thats what the Dems and libs what everybody to think...that enforcing laws against illegals is racist to Latin Americans(to use a Politically Commie "PC" term)...Forget that Laws are broken...and they are bad for us on so many levels..I'd be against Canadians doing the same thing...and don't care much for the Government approved illegal migration of Cubans either (If it is so bad they should take their country back).Hell, you have to know 2 languages in South Florida and I'm sure it's much worse in the southwest..sucks we are the only country in the world that bends to the will of illegal immigrants like that.
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Originally posted by Dnil
hmm being against ILLEGALS is now being a bigot.
Guess you can call me a bigot to. Since I am against anything ILLEGAL.
so ack-ack. Do you like illegals in the country?
I guess I am a bigot as well according to that definition. If you are here illegally you should NOT get a drivers liscence, medical care, welfare etc.
I am all for people immigrating to America LEGALLY.
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Originally posted by Kegger26
this whole thing is reaching a flashpoint pretty quick. Truthfully while I dont want to see any more mexicans crossing over into our boarders.
If we stop them who's gonna do all the work that no one else wants to do? And for peanuts? Like working in the bean and strawberry fields and digging ditches or pouring concrete for $3-4 an hour? You? If they pay you minimum wage would you do it? How about 3 bucks more an hour than minimum wage? To go out and dig ditches in 95 degree weather....So, are you saying they're gonna steal work and food from out of American mouths? To that I say Bolshevik!
Cripes. They come across the border live with a mere 10-12 people in an apartment, make less than minimum wage yet do an honest days work of the type that no one else wants to do. They drive POS cars and pickups, send all of their money home to support their families and only call the immigration service once or twice a year so they can get a free ride home for the holidays and special occasions.
Personally I'd like to open the borders, both ways and retire down there. The weather's great, food's ok and living's cheap. What more could you ask for? Don't we let just about every Canadian who wants to, drive across the borders every day? Tell me the difference. 'Sides Baha California probably wont fall into the ocean during my lifetime :).
BTW, I once flew 450 Poilish immigrants from Vienna to New York back in the early '80's. Tell me what those 450 had to offer over any Mexican? They put in for it? Big Deal! Those folks on the plane couldn't even speak a word of English!
Ren
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There's always someone who will do it.
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maybe if there wasnt cheap illegal labor the wages would be legal and people would work there.
How many of those POS cars they drive are insured? Many studies are out as to how the healthcare system is going bankrupt in some cities because of illegals. crime studies also. This is more then I want some one to mow my lawn for cheap.
I am all for LEGAL immigration, bring um on love to have them. This sneaking across the borders and not following the rules is not an option.
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BTW, I once flew 450 Poilish immigrants from Vienna to New York back in the early '80's. Tell me what those 450 had to offer over any Mexican? They put in for it? Big Deal! Those folks on the plane couldn't even speak a word of English!
Going thru the immigration process as oppossed to sneaking across the border in the middle of the night makes all the difference in the world imo. Btw, alot of those Mexicans dont speak a word of english either when they first come here. Some of them have such strong accents that they might as well be speaking a different language.
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Bring us your tired your weary! 'Cept La Mex.
Sorry you have your opinion and I have mine. If it came to a vote I'd say let em all in, have no borders! Have the United States of Noth America!:D
Change is in the air! Didn't the European's do that? BTW, what IS a Euro Dollar? Hmmmm, dolla. Dollar. Isn't that an American word? Naw :)
Ren
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All we ask is that they do it by a legal means...Is that such a bad thing to ask?
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Originally posted by Elfie
snip
Btw, alot of those Mexicans dont speak a word of english either when they first come here. Some of them have such strong accents that they might as well be speaking a different language.
Imagine that, the nerve of those little brown bastards to not speak the King's English properly!
Sig Heil!
culero (I feel sorry for you)
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Originally posted by NUKE
snip
I suppose you think that people who want our laws respected are bigots.
I would reply that those who only want to enforce laws being broken by those of a different culture and are willing to tolerate laws that apply to the same problem being broken by those of their own culture are, by definition, bigots.
culero (look at yerself in the mirror after reading that)
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Originally posted by culero
Imagine that, the nerve of those little brown bastards to not speak the King's English properly!
Sig Heil!
culero (I feel sorry for you)
As an American..go anywhere else where it is the norm to have signs in both the Native language and English...you won't find it...Go anywhere and see if the public schools cater to your "special" needs as a non-official language speaker.
ESOL=English as a SecOnd Language....the most perposterous public school program I've ever heard of.
If they come here..come legally..and once you are here learn English or you are assed out.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Culero, you can do both. Start punishing employers AND increase border security. snip
You're missing my point, and I fear its because you don't want to face it.
I also want to get exactly where you do - that we don't have a flood of illegal immigrants.
My point is that if we clean up OUR OWN HOUSE (by eliminating the illegal jobs at their source) we'll have already gone a long way toward drying up the flow of illegal immigrants. What part of "If there's no jobs they won't have a reason to come" do you not understand?
Why are you so keen to spend money on border security when it simply wouldn't be necessary if we fixed things here?
Look at it this way - you have rats in your house. They are there because you're filthy in your housekeeping, and leave food sources out in the open all over.
Do you spend huge sums on traps and poison, all the while leaving all that food out to entice them to keep coming?
Or do you solve the problem sensibly by cleaning your damn house, plus a little bit of rodent control?
I think what's at play here is people who resent people of other cultures so much they want to blame them for everything, punish them for everything, and ignore everything else that's a factor.
Shades of Kristallnacht. Sig Heil! :(
culero
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It's gonna take a little of both...without people going to EVERY farm in the US..or every illegal sweat shop..you'll never find all the employers..so while hunting for illegal employers..we must also hunt for illegals crossing the boarder....doing only one will never work.
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Originally posted by Dnil
snip
I am all for LEGAL immigration, bring um on love to have them. This sneaking across the borders and not following the rules is not an option.
I agree.
The point here is what's the most effective way to correct the problem. IMO, its dry up the job source first, then clean up what little illegal immigration is left next (it'll be such a small portion of what we have now it'll be much easier and less costly).
culero
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Originally posted by ASTAC
It's gonna take a little of both...without people going to EVERY farm in the US..or every illegal sweat shop..you'll never find all the employers..so while hunting for illegal employers..we must also hunt for illegals crossing the boarder....doing only one will never work.
Absolutely right.
The problem is, precious little is being done to solve what's wrong here, and everybody I see discussing it seems to be a reactionary that wants persecution of the illegal immigrants to be the only means used to solve the problem.
There is simply a more effective way to get to the end, and that's housecleaning.
culero
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Originally posted by ASTAC
As an American..go anywhere else where it is the norm to have signs in both the Native language and English...you won't find it...Go anywhere and see if the public schools cater to your "special" needs as a non-official language speaker.
ESOL=English as a SecOnd Language....the most perposterous public school program I've ever heard of.
If they come here..come legally..and once you are here learn English or you are assed out.
One of the reasons I am proud to be a US citizen is because we don't have an official language.
One of the reasons that I want to channel immigration into legal immigration as opposed to illegal immigration (by shutting off illegal job sources) is because most Mexican immigrants, given the chance to, will enthusiastically comply with legal requirements to become US citizens....including the portion of the naturalization requirements that specify basic English literacy.
And, yes, I do know for a fact what the hell I'm saying there.
culero
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I agree...I can live with a plan that would legalize the ones already here..make them citizens and subject to all federal laws...especially taxes and such....try harder to keep new illegals out...and crack down on employers (probrably the biggest/hardest part)
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I agree...I can live with a plan that would legalize the ones already here..make them citizens and subject to all federal laws...especially taxes and such....try harder to keep new illegals out...and crack down on employers (probrably the biggest/hardest part)
Which is exactly what I've been trying to get folks to see all along. (Especially that its the illegal employers here that's the ROOT of the problem).
culero
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I agree...I can live with a plan that would legalize the ones already here..make them citizens and subject to all federal laws...especially taxes and such....try harder to keep new illegals out
This would be the worst thing we could do, short of giving up completely. All Mexicans who are considering coming here illegally would then rush stateside, figuring they'd get amnesty eventually.
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Then once that is done..we need to break down the cultiural divides...it has always bothered me that immigrants set up their country within ours..hence "little Italy"..China Town..and the like...if we are to survive as a country we need to be a country and try to find some sort of common culture and not all come here and stay seperate. It's sad to be an American citizen but be unwelcome in certain neighborhoods because I am not of the same race/culture as the people living there, and vice versa. Those kind of places encourage people not to assimilate and not to meld with the general population. Not saying it shopuld be left behind..or that all people need to come here and be Wasps..just that we need to be one people.
And for Steve..ther would have to be some sort of cutoff date.
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Especially that its the illegal employers here that's the ROOT of the problem).
This is pure Bullshiit. The root of the problem is a weak Mexican economy and a corrput Mexican govt.
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Originally posted by Steve
This is pure Bullshiit. The root of the problem is a weak Mexican economy and a corrput Mexican govt.
isnt that mexico's problem and not ours?
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It's our problem, as far as illegals go, that induces them to come here.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
snip
ESOL=English as a SecOnd Language....the most perposterous public school program I've ever heard of.
If they come here..come legally..and once you are here learn English or you are assed out.
BTW - I agree about the ESOL thing, and if you think this discussion here is pissing me off, lemme tell you it's a milquetoast reaction compared to what I'd be doing in local community circles and politically with the school board if that crap was being proposed in my own local schools (it wouldn't be the first time I've been on local TV because of raising public hell about public stupidity).
My 7 year old grandson goes to school where Spanish as a second language is part of the local curriculum and I want it that way. But, that same school focuses on any kids who aren't fluent in English by devoting special resources to them to bring their English up to par while mainstreaming them as much as possible, rather than the reverse. This is IMO the way it should be.
culero
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Originally posted by Steve
This is pure Bullshiit. The root of the problem is a weak Mexican economy and a corrput Mexican govt.
LOL, this is BS dood :)
The Mexican economy and government are no more weak and corrupt than those elements in most of the world, as a matter of fact outside of Europe and the rest of North America Mexico compares rather favorably.
I'd go so far as to say that so far as personal sophistication, ethics, and morals are concerned that Mexico compares rather favorably with anywhere in the world.
Especially where the kind of bigotry I see being displayed here over this issue is concerned.
culero
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Then once that is done..we need to break down the cultiural divides...it has always bothered me that immigrants set up their country within ours..hence "little Italy"..China Town..and the like...if we are to survive as a country we need to be a country and try to find some sort of common culture and not all come here and stay seperate. It's sad to be an American citizen but be unwelcome in certain neighborhoods because I am not of the same race/culture as the people living there, and vice versa. Those kind of places encourage people not to assimilate and not to meld with the general population. Not saying it shopuld be left behind..or that all people need to come here and be Wasps..just that we need to be one people.
And for Steve..ther would have to be some sort of cutoff date.
Thank you very much, this is exactly where I'm coming from.
I'd also point out that encouraging bilinguality on the part of BOTH cultures who share a common border is one good way to avoid the kind of division you cite.
culero (hates the term *-American)
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Originally posted by culero
BTW - I agree about the ESOL thing, and if you think this discussion here is pissing me off, lemme tell you it's a milquetoast reaction compared to what I'd be doing in local community circles and politically with the school board if that crap was being proposed in my own local schools (it wouldn't be the first time I've been on local TV because of raising public hell about public stupidity).
My 7 year old grandson goes to school where Spanish as a second language is part of the local curriculum and I want it that way. But, that same school focuses on any kids who aren't fluent in English by devoting special resources to them to bring their English up to par while mainstreaming them as much as possible, rather than the reverse. This is IMO the way it should be.
culero
Not only that...In Florida (where about 90% of my family are public school teachers) They require teachers to get trained and certified for the ESOL program..and make them pay for the classes themselves.
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Originally posted by Steve
It's our problem, as far as illegals go, that induces them to come here.
so wouldnt that encourage us to solve OUR problem verses theirs? I'm just sayin that it would probably take a hell of a lot more work to get the mexican economy off the ground and their people out of poverty than it would to enforce the laws that we currently have.
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Originally posted by culero
Thank you very much, this is exactly where I'm coming from.
I'd also point out that encouraging bilinguality on the part of BOTH cultures who share a common border is one good way to avoid the kind of division you cite.
culero (hates the term *-American)
If I had the time..I would learn Spanish and probrably French too (Since our Northen Neighbors have an entire subculture that is French)..if not for any other reason thean I wouldn't be the typical one language American imposing myself and language in another country.
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Where's all the U.S. citizens jumping through hoops trying to get the job's illegals do?
They're looking for a better way of life, we should be doing something to help.. which is exactly what culero is advocating.
Why? Because we can. We're going to pay higher prices for certain things whether or not we shut them off or welcome them with open arms. It's gonna happen, might as well take an optimistic approach.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Not only that...In Florida (where about 90% of my family are public school teachers) They require teachers to get trained and certified for the ESOL program..and make them pay for the classes themselves.
Yanno, it seems like every time I hear about something happening in Florida, California, or Massachutsetts I immediately reflect that I'm damn sure glad I live in Texas ;)
culero
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I am becoming increasingly embarrased to be from there..We used to be such a quiet state...now look at it..been ruined by politics....It's sad..luckily the part I'm from is not much part of the problem.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Where's all the U.S. citizens jumping through hoops trying to get the job's illegals do?
Let's be fair - maybe US citizens would go for those jobs if they were paid for fairly, because employers were no longer allowed to make illegal employment arrangements.
Originally posted by Tumor
They're looking for a better way of life, we should be doing something to help.. which is exactly what culero is advocating.
Why? Because we can.
snip
Actually, I disagree. I'm not a bleeding heart who wants to "help because we can". I'm a libertarian who wants everyone to be responsible for themselves as much as is possible.
What I am saying is that we should RESPECT them for wanting to WORK to EARN a better way of life, rather than despise them for exactly that.
And, that in addition to not tolerating foreigners breaking our laws, we should not tolerate CITIZENS breaking our laws.
All I want is a fair deal all the way across the table, period, for all involved. What pisses me off is people who can't see we are as guilty of contributing to the problem as they are.
culero
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I am becoming increasingly embarrased to be from there..We used to be such a quiet state...now look at it..been ruined by politics....It's sad..luckily the part I'm from is not much part of the problem.
My mother in law lives in Fort Myers, and has always wished we'd relocate there.
The corporation I work for has a significant presence in the panhandle area, future opportunities for me may exist there.
What are those areas like, in this respect?
curiousalero
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The Mexican economy and government are no more weak and corrupt than those elements in most of the world, as a matter of fact outside of Europe and the rest of North America Mexico compares rather favorably.
Oh ya, except the other countries aren't neighboring the U.S. you for got that one little detail, conveniently.
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They're looking for a better way of life, we should be doing something to help.. which is exactly what culero is advocating.
This is so short sighted and wrong that I don't feel like expending the effort. Tumor, do me a favor? Pick up my share of the tab for what you are advocating.
Culero is not advocating what you suggest, btw.
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Originally posted by culero
My mother in law lives in Fort Myers, and has always wished we'd relocate there.
The corporation I work for has a significant presence in the panhandle area, future opportunities for me may exist there.
What are those areas like, in this respect?
curiousalero
Stay away from anything south of and includiing Orlando....Northeast/North Central/ and the Panhandle are the best places to live...quite..decent economy...Jacksonville is full of jobs....central and south florida..full of retirees and liberals
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Originally posted by Steve
Oh ya, except the other countries aren't neighboring the U.S. you for got that one little detail, conveniently.
No, actually I didn't. Keep in mind where I live (it would be hard for me to forget where Mexico is).
My point stands, you're wrong to suggest the illegal immigration problem is not as much our fault as it is theirs.
culero
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Originally posted by Steve
snip
Culero is not advocating what you suggest, btw.
But I am saying that we shouldn't refuse to consider helping if that is possibly the most cost-effective way of solving the problem (and in some respects, it just might be).
culero
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Originally posted by ASTAC
As an American..go anywhere else where it is the norm to have signs in both the Native language and English...you won't find it...Go anywhere and see if the public schools cater to your "special" needs as a non-official language speaker.
ESOL=English as a SecOnd Language....the most perposterous public school program I've ever heard of.
If they come here..come legally..and once you are here learn English or you are assed out.
Umm ESOL programs are designed to teach them.... english, as a second language, because their "first" language is - well whatever they speak from wherever. Or do you think that immigrants come from countries with no language at all?
But then again, not many people around the globe would class that language taught in US schools as "English" any more ;)
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ESOL exists becaus ealot of the parents don't bother to learn...putting their children at a big disadvantage..and also helping to keep them from assimilating to our "culture"..making the teachers pay out of pocket for the program is what I find most distasteful about it..I'm sure it is helpful to some kids
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Originally posted by culero
Let's be fair - maybe US citizens would go for those jobs if they were paid for fairly, because employers were no longer allowed to make illegal employment arrangements.
I don't have a problem with that, I just don't see it... we're in too deep and it's our own fault. JMHO, no argument.
Actually, I disagree. I'm not a bleeding heart who wants to "help because we can". I'm a libertarian who wants everyone to be responsible for themselves as much as is possible.
I'm not a bleeding heart either, just don't see why we should be adamant about slamming the door on the same pursuits we were founded on when it really (at least I think) wouldn't hurt us in the first place.
What I am saying is that we should RESPECT them for wanting to WORK to EARN a better way of life, rather than despise them for exactly that.
Well.. we'll just have to agree to agree.
And, that in addition to not tolerating foreigners breaking our laws, we should not tolerate CITIZENS breaking our laws.
Funny how muny werks eh?
All I want is a fair deal all the way across the table, period, for all involved. What pisses me off is people who can't see we are as guilty of contributing to the problem as they are.
Stop spreading common sense all over the place ya freak.
culero
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Originally posted by Steve
This is so short sighted and wrong that I don't feel like expending the effort. Tumor, do me a favor? Pick up my share of the tab for what you are advocating.
Culero is not advocating what you suggest, btw.
There's no cheap alternative for either of us.
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It's day two.... Any update? Are they making a dent? Any gunplay or anything like that?
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Originally posted by Nash
It's day two.... Any update? Are they making a dent? Any gunplay or anything like that?
Can't find any news..still alot of coverage about the Pope overshadowing all other current events
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Originally posted by culero
I would reply that those who only want to enforce laws being broken by those of a different culture and are willing to tolerate laws that apply to the same problem being broken by those of their own culture are, by definition, bigots.
culero (look at yerself in the mirror after reading that)
so then you agree that I am not a bigot, because I want to treat ALL illegals exactly the same. I want them thrown out of the country and I do not want even one of them to get one red cent of US taxpayer support.
Glad we agree.
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My point stands, you're wrong to suggest the illegal immigration problem is not as much our fault as it is theirs.
I just can't find where I said it wasn't our fault too. Mind pointing it out to me?
While we're at it do you seriously believe that if Mexico's economy was strong and there were plenty of jobs for the people that they would be illegally coming here? Seriously?
I mean I must be wrong about this, right? There are millions of people crossing illegally from Canada too then , right?
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Originally posted by culero
Which is exactly what I've been trying to get folks to see all along. (Especially that its the illegal employers here that's the ROOT of the problem).
culero
I believe the root of the problem lies in Mexico's low standard of living. You will never find all the employers that hire illegals. There will always be someone willing to hire them. Your solution isnt as simple as you make it out to be. The costs of investigating and prosecuting every employer you find that has illegals on his/her payroll will be enormous.
The simplest solution is to close the border.
I'm not against Mexican's or anyone else for that matter coming here legally.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I agree...I can live with a plan that would legalize the ones already here..make them citizens and subject to all federal laws...especially taxes and such....try harder to keep new illegals out...and crack down on employers (probrably the biggest/hardest part)
That's pretty much what Culero and I have been advocating. If you want to cut down on the illegal immigration, you need to go after the "why", which in this case are the employers who employ them as cheap labor.
It's like the drug war, you'll never win going after the supply until you get rid of the demand.
And at least in California, you need to show proof of citizenship to get on state welfare such as Medical and the like. IIRC, it's the same for federal welfare. Blaming illegal immigrants for the state of our welfare system is just a smoke screen used by the politicians to mask how badly they've screwed it up.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Thats what the Dems and libs what everybody to think...
It would probably be a kick to your bellybutton to know that I'm a registered Republican, have been since 1988.
The horror, a Hispanic that's conservative and votes.
ack-ack
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Are "republican" and "conservative" the same thing anymore?
These things move so fast....
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Originally posted by Nash
Are "republican" and "conservative" the same thing anymore?
These things move so fast....
yup same goes for Democrat, liberal,Socialist, communist, idiot, pansy, an non-gendernormative.
Once they all went hand in hand but today it's just so hard to tell. I mean you really have to look hard to see. In todays day an age you really have to make sure first.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Julius Caesar changed the European calendar to 365 1/4 days in 45 BC with no knowledge to the Mayan people.
The Mayan Calander ends December 21st, 2012 AD for some reason.
Come on I atleast have to get to 30 years
I want to know how it feels to be old :D
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Originally posted by Nash
Are "republican" and "conservative" the same thing anymore?
These things move so fast....
The far right has blurred the definition of what a Conservative Republican is. I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative, which was the original meaning of a conservative Republican.
ack-ack
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Hey AKAK, please don't think I am a bigot...I am not......and to hate or discriminate is 100% opposed to my beliefs.
When I was talking about Chula Vista on 200 the other night, I was trolling you......I let a squad mate know before I typed.
Actually ( as I told my squadie) Chula Vista is a beatiful place and I gave been there several times.
As far as my stance on imigration, I hope you can understand that I am in no way angry with nor am I targeting any race or group. I just want the illegal imigration stopped and it's frustrating for me that it goes on like it has.
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Originally posted by NUKE
so then you agree that I am not a bigot, because I want to treat ALL illegals exactly the same. I want them thrown out of the country and I do not want even one of them to get one red cent of US taxpayer support.
Glad we agree.
No, we don't.
I note you still avoid addressing the fact that we are rife with citizens providing the source that attracs illegal immigrants. So long as you seem willing to ignore that, therefore giving consent by silence to that practice, and focus strictly on measures that are punitive to foreigners, it will appear to me that you are, in fact, prejudiced against a class of people and therefore a bigot.
culero
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culero, you are ignorant.
I want our laws enforced, plain and simple. If you insist on calling me a bigot, I will complain to HTC ( for the first time I ever have) about you.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I believe the root of the problem lies in Mexico's low standard of living.
Undoubtedly, that's a contributing factor. However, think this through. Even given that, why would anyone from there want to come here if they didn't think they could find work? Yes, many people in Mexico are impoverished, but its the ease with which they find illegal employment that causes them to come here for it.
Originally posted by Elfie
You will never find all the employers that hire illegals. There will always be someone willing to hire them. Your solution isnt as simple as you make it out to be. The costs of investigating and prosecuting every employer you find that has illegals on his/her payroll will be enormous.
The simplest solution is to close the border.
snip
I disagree strongly. Detecting illegal employment is as simple as auditing business records and practices. You can either account for services paid for in your books and tax records or you can't.
A large part of my job is contracting for services rendered, in a community that has large numbers of illegal immigrants. If someone wants to sign a contract with me, they have to provide valid identification and a SSAN, or they aren't eligible, period. If I can't report via Form 1099 I ain't playing. If I didn't act in these ways, it would be easy for an auditor to detect the gaps in my reporting, and therefore identify likely sources of illegal labor. This will work in almost any business I can think of.
"Closing the border" would wreck the local economy here. Those "impoverished Mexicans" spend $millions in the stores and shopping malls here. Its a simple fact of life that there are better deals on certain types of goods here as compared to there. Its common to see middle-class Mexicans come here for a week at a time, stay in local hotels, eat in local, restaurants, and spend freely buying goods to take home.
Not to mention you're talking about a method that's spring-loaded to turn our border areas into mini-police states.
Quit trying to screw my hometown over. There's a better way to deal with it.
culero
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Even given that, why would anyone from there want to come here if they didn't think they could find work? Yes, many people in Mexico are impoverished, but its the ease with which they find illegal employment that causes them to come here for it.
You are either a complete moron (which, to be fair, I do not believe) or you are denying the obvious simply to avoid conceding a point in this "debate"
The poor Mexican economy is the root of this multi-faceted problem.
If the Mexican economy was robust, how many Mexicans would literally risk their lives for "ease with which they find illegal employment"?
Do you seriously think they would still be trying to come across in anythying but a minute fraction of current numbers?
I'll again point out that there are not Canadians illegally crossing the borders, by the millions, to find employment. The only logical conclusion can be that there is enough employment in Canada to prevent this.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I agree...I can live with a plan that would legalize the ones already here..make them citizens and subject to all federal laws..
Not to throw a wrench in your cogs here, but if you will step back in time a few years you will find that this has been tryed and failed more than miserably.
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Originally posted by NUKE
culero, you are ignorant.
I want our laws enforced, plain and simple. If you insist on calling me a bigot, I will complain to HTC ( for the first time I ever have) about you.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/176_1095446371_peeweescared.jpg)
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"Closing the border" would wreck the local economy here. Those "impoverished Mexicans" spend $millions in the stores and shopping malls here. Its a simple fact of life that there are better deals on certain types of goods here as compared to there. Its common to see middle-class Mexicans come here for a week at a time, stay in local hotels, eat in local, restaurants, and spend freely buying goods to take home.
Who says we want tourism stopped?
I disagree strongly. Detecting illegal employment is as simple as auditing business records and practices. You can either account for services paid for in your books and tax records or you can't.
Costs to audit hundreds of thousands of buisinesses across America would be horrendous and time consuming. You can do random audits, but you would still have to audit a significant number of businesses each year in order to provide a deterrent.
Undoubtedly, that's a contributing factor. However, think this through. Even given that, why would anyone from there want to come here if they didn't think they could find work? Yes, many people in Mexico are impoverished, but its the ease with which they find illegal employment that causes them to come here for it.
I think Steve covered that one quite well :D
Not to mention you're talking about a method that's spring-loaded to turn our border areas into mini-police states.
Maybe thats what it will take to stop the hordes.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
ESOL exists becaus ealot of the parents don't bother to learn...putting their children at a big disadvantage..and also helping to keep them from assimilating to our "culture"..making the teachers pay out of pocket for the program is what I find most distasteful about it..I'm sure it is helpful to some kids
Ummm, unless "Second Language" has some other meaning in the USA... do you think you could be any more confused?
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Ya know, if there was more fake grass in Arizona it would cut the need for mexican landscaping crews. Of course you would need a few to use as installers.
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One thing increasing illegal immigration from Mexico, in spite of NAFTA, is the robust Chinese economy.
It's hard to have things both ways. Companies opened factories across the border in Mexico to take advantage of the low direct and indirect labor costs, low construction costs, lower pollution and employee safety standards to reduce the costs of the goods produced.
China's even lower production cost has forced the Mexican factories opened in the 1980s and 1990s to close. The cheap Mexican labor has been put out of work by even cheaper Chinese labor.
Your low price of products comes at a cost - illegal immigration by desperate people doing desperate things.
I know many of you won't get this, but the only way to reduce illegal immigration is take away the desperation - to improve the state of their lives through economic development and investment. Many US companies opened Canadian subsidiaries generations ago, and not to just exploit low labor costs.
You can't exploit cheap labor then discard them when you find someone even further down the desperation scale to do the same work a little cheaper. You don't like it when it happens to you. You scream bloody murder, but you're willing to do it to others.
I would propose to you that the cost of investment, training and economic development aid would be less than all costs associated with illegal immigration.
Laws are fine. There are more than enough laws declaring robbery, burglary, murder and even illegal immigration, to be illegal. All those laws haven't reduced the prison population much. More than 20% of all prisoners in the world (we're talking the entire planet here...) are in US prisons.
The US does a pretty good job of putting people in prison, but keeping people out of prison is a lesson still not learned.
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Originally posted by Rolex
More than 20% of all prisoners in the world (we're talking the entire planet here...) are in US prisons.
Hehe. Sorry, but I got a chuckle out of this. It reminded me of a statement made by our county sheriff to a family member on the phone. I thought then it was the poster child for "DUH" statements. Then a few days later I see the statement from him quoted again in the newspaper.
He was bemoaning the work his dept. had to do in a certain area of the county. He actualy came off with the attitude that if you lived in this area you were not going to get much consideration from his dept.
The statement he made was that 65 to 70 percent off all the sheriff`s dept calls were to this area. Considering the area in question holds around 80 to 85 percent of the county`s population and is basicaly the only area not under a city police jurisdiction it was a real brain buster. :D
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cuelero and I are right on this.. the REAL problem is the employer.. A national 5 day waiting period and background check on all employees regardless of race would do it... the highly overworked imigration officials would be 10 times more effeftive with one tenth the workload. People who were illegals would be more obvious in an atmosphere of few illegals.
Employers would need to be jailed. period even the rich ***** with a maid... even you hiring a landscaper.
The politicians would win in this one two. legal immigrants don't like the illegals any more than natural citizens... legals of mexican decent would vote for a politician who got rid of the illegals by punishing the fat white employer.
but cuerlo... I don't agree on the multi lingual teaching thing.. My daughter went... I thought it was a good idea till I went to class to watch... everything was said in english and then in spanish..
everyone got half as much teaching in the same time period (except in language) that they would have under all english.
lazs
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Originally posted by Elfie
Well, would each province become their own state? Or the whole country as one state? :D
I forget....how many Provinces in Canada?
10 Provinces and 3 Territories if I so recall, as I am some "Evil American".
Karaya
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Originally posted by lazs2
snip
but cuerlo... I don't agree on the multi lingual teaching thing.. My daughter went... I thought it was a good idea till I went to class to watch... everything was said in english and then in spanish..
everyone got half as much teaching in the same time period (except in language) that they would have under all english.
lazs
I'd be pissed off if that was the case here. What I'm talking about is classes taught in English, with Spanish as one subject amongst many.
culero
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Originally posted by NUKE
culero, you are ignorant.
I want our laws enforced, plain and simple. If you insist on calling me a bigot, I will complain to HTC ( for the first time I ever have) about you.
Looks like the shoe fits, IMO. Now you sound gay, as well.
culero
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Originally posted by lazs2
but cuerlo... I don't agree on the multi lingual teaching thing.. My daughter went... I thought it was a good idea till I went to class to watch... everything was said in english and then in spanish..
everyone got half as much teaching in the same time period (except in language) that they would have under all english.
lazs
I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I didn't learn to speak English until I got into kindergarten and then I learned by full English immersion. There was none of this English as a second language classes that were offered. Don't think they even thought up this concept back in 1975. Within 6 months, I was speaking English almost fluently and by the time I entered 1st grade, was fully fluent in English.
ack-ack
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cuelero and I are right on this.. the REAL problem is the employer..
At least partially. Lax law enforcement is also to blame. Poor border security. People in powere in fear of liberals, etc.
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Originally posted by Steve
People in powere in fear of liberals, etc.
PERK THE LIBERALS!
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Rolex
Laws are fine. There are more than enough laws declaring robbery, burglary, murder and even illegal immigration, to be illegal. All those laws haven't reduced the prison population much. More than 20% of all prisoners in the world (we're talking the entire planet here...) are in US prisons.
Errmm, ever seen prisons in a 3rd world country? Usually theres not enough money for them, so more down to earth (or should I say in to earth) methods are used for criminals.
For example, you talked about China, they have a rather extreme way of dealing with even petty criminals.
The high level of imprisonment in the US merely reflects the high level of crime you need to acheive to make it to the death penalty.
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They should find out where they are going and arrest the guy who wants to employ them cheap. Living up here on the northern border the only thing we see are french canadians who come in the summer, willing to spend money. So I dont have much input on the issue.
But I will say if citizens are willing to spend their own time and money doing this, they must be pissed off. If nothing else it may kick the government in the butt and wake up to it.
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Trying my best to stay out of them.
Fair point about 3rd-world prisons; however, the world is not separated into the US, with every place else being a 3rd-world country.
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You know how this is gonna end up, some some inbread redneck donutwood and his buddies are gonna be drinking Lone Star Beer (or Pabst) get drunk and shoot somebody trying to cross the border. Who knows they may even shoot an entire family in the name of protecting us from someone who is willing to do a job that nobody else wants.
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You'd probably like that, just to for the sake of being right.
Maybe they'll bring attention to the fact that our borders are porous and millions of criminals cross into the US every year.
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Originally posted by BBQ_Bob
You know how this is gonna end up, some some inbread redneck donutwood and his buddies are gonna be drinking Lone Star Beer (or Pabst) get drunk and shoot somebody trying to cross the border. Who knows they may even shoot an entire family in the name of protecting us from someone who is willing to do a job that nobody else wants.
You sure they won't be drinking Dos Equis?
(http://dosxx.com/dos_lda/new_lda_1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Steve
Maybe they'll bring attention to the fact that our borders are porous and millions of criminals cross into the US every year.
But Steve, they are not criminals, they just want to work....the real criminals are the people who hire them. Just like drug dealers are not criminals ...the who people buy drugs are.
It's complete racism to want to seal the border like Mexico seals it's southern border.
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Originally posted by lazs2
cuelero and I are right on this.. the REAL problem is the employer.. A national 5 day waiting period and background check on all employees regardless of race would do it... the highly overworked imigration officials would be 10 times more effeftive with one tenth the workload. People who were illegals would be more obvious in an atmosphere of few illegals.
Employers would need to be jailed. period even the rich ***** with a maid... even you hiring a landscaper.
If you arrest the employers whos gonna bring the food to the market? Then you will be without food in your local piggley wiggley. Next thing ya know people will be whinin about lack of food or food at much higher prices. Gas prices aint high enough for you Now ya want to raise the prices of everything else too? What are you a millionaire that you can throw money away? Im not:)
The politicians would win in this one two. legal immigrants don't like the illegals any more than natural citizens... legals of mexican decent would vote for a politician who got rid of the illegals by punishing the fat white employer.
Forget legal or illegal! Open the borders if they're Mexican or Canadian let em come in and take the menial jobs. Prices will be cheaper. You guys need to get with it. Unions are OVER! That's a thing of the '60's and as dead as Aunt Bea!And, you can godown and get a nice retirement pad in Baja for next to nothing if you move when they open the borders.
but cuerlo... I don't agree on the multi lingual teaching thing.. My daughter went... I thought it was a good idea till I went to class to watch... everything was said in english and then in spanish..
everyone got half as much teaching in the same time period (except in language) that they would have under all english.
Did you ever think they learned twice as much? Perhaps the second language has much more value than you think!Ren
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Originally posted by Steve
At least partially. Lax law enforcement is also to blame. Poor border security. People in powere in fear of liberals, etc.
Lax law enforcement? Try Law enforcement out for themselves and retirement. How many police officer have you seen pull some dude over for doing 5 mph over the speed limit or rolling through a stop sign. Then when they finish they pull a u-turn across double yellow lines and 4 lanes of traffic. That's not against the law too? How about 2 police cars side by side at a stop light then racing (tires smoking and all) to the next light!MUAHAHAHAHAHA
And fear liberals? I doubt it! :lol Ren
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Originally posted by Steve
You'd probably like that, just to for the sake of being right.
Maybe they'll bring attention to the fact that our borders are porous and millions of criminals cross into the US every year.
I think they go both ways across the border. Who's fault is that! In our area they are talking about privatising the State prison systems but the overpaid, underworked union holders might lose they're jobs. It's about time someone had to work for an honest days wages! Like those poor old Mexican's who come across the border to support their families at home! Ren
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Originally posted by NUKE
But Steve, they are not criminals, they just want to work....the real criminals are the people who hire them. Just like drug dealers are not criminals ...the who people buy drugs are.
It's complete racism to want to seal the border like Mexico seals it's southern border.
How is it racism? I'm sure if Canadians were doing it we'd feel the same way about sealing our northern boarder...It's not an issue of sealing the boarder because they are mexicans..but because it's not a legal way to enter the country....even someone here legally can still work an "under the table" job for shady employers. So why not try to come here legally...that is all we ask.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
How is it racism? I'm sure if Canadians were doing it we'd feel the same way about sealing our northern boarder...It's not an issue of sealing the boarder because they are mexicans..but because it's not a legal way to enter the country....even someone here legally can still work an "under the table" job for shady employers. So why not try to come here legally...that is all we ask.
He's being ironic, because I've called him on stubbornly insisting that persecuting illegal immigrants is the way to fix this problem.
I note that he wants less illegal immigration but refuses to see that working on both sides of the problem is the most effective way to fix it (eliminate illegal jobs PLUS do a more effective job of controlling who enters the country, made easier by the fact there will be smaller numbers to work with).
I have to chalk this up to the fact he resents the people on one side of this (the illegal immigrants) for being who they are that he is deliberately ignoring the fact that people of his class (US citizens who are employers) are a major contributing factor to exactly what he's complaining about.
I'd point out that makes him smell like a bigot, but he apparently has become quite sensitive about having his tendencies discussed, so I won't do that ;)
culero (can't ignore what's right in front of him)
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Originally posted by culero
He's being ironic,
It's called sarcasm.
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ren... yu are probly kidding but... cheap labor is not the way to keep farm prices down... there is no cheap way to produce food when you depend on labor.
look at tomatoe harvesting... they used to have 40 mexicans riding on a sorting rig... when minimum wage laws kicked in the farmers all cried that a tomatoe would cost $5
That didn't happen... the new sorters use lasers and have 2 mexicans on em instead of 40 and those guys get about double the minimum wage.
costs for labor will rise... the only way to get over that is to create harvesters that do tedious mindless work... that won't happen tho so long as illegal labor can be exploited.
Faced with jail time... the farmer will raise prices... John Deere will then see the demand and create a machine to replace another 40 illegals per 100 acres.
once there is less demand for illegal labor... less illegals will cross... those that do will be more eaisily caught with less strain on the law/border enforcement.
The illegals caugtht then will probly be real criminals not families looking for (nonexistent) work... they will be drug smugglers and the like. The real mexicans that need to be policed.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
look at tomatoe harvesting... they used to have 40 mexicans riding on a sorting rig... when minimum wage laws kicked in the farmers all cried that a tomatoe would cost $5
lazs
I grew up. oldest of five, in the Central Valley Lazs. I did everything fgrom knocking almonds, bucking hay, olives,etc., etc., but the most miserable of all was tomatoes....As they came by on the conveyor I had to pick out rotten ones, dirt clods, rocks and, occasionally, other organic matter of indeterminate origin. The smell was Gawdawful. Small areas of tomatoes were harvested the old fashioned way, picked and placed in a five gallon bucket- for every bucket we got ten cents, with a bit of hustle we'd get twenty buckets an hour, which paid better than the buck fifty an hour I got for working the conveyor.
BTW, up here the lumber industry takes advantage of migrant worker laws and hires only Mexicans at minimum wage - if you're looking for a villan then look no further than our elected representatives that allow this.
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So Airhead...did your parents hop the border...or your grandparents?
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April fools... check date of original post. News media are not uncommon to pull jokes april 1st. Living in Europe I don't get the US news but that's my bet anyway. Don't believe anything u read or are told on April 1st. ;)
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Originally posted by Curval
So Airhead...did your parents hop the border...or your grandparents?
Growing up poor in the 50s-60s you had to work at whatever you could get. I was raised by a single Mom (it's her birthday today BTW) and my alcoholic father only came around occasionally, then in bout 66 he stopped coming around at all. FWIW I wouldn't trade my heritage with anyone here, and feel I grew up blessed by my life experiences, moreso than people I know who grew up with a silver spoon in thier mouths.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Growing up poor in the 50s-60s you had to work at whatever you could get. I was raised by a single Mom (it's her birthday today BTW) and my alcoholic father only came around occasionally, then in bout 66 he stopped coming around at all. FWIW I wouldn't trade my heritage with anyone here, and feel I grew up blessed by my life experiences, moreso than people I know who grew up with a silver spoon in thier mouths.
Wow...reading this my pointer finger and my thumb started to rub together automatically mimicing the world's smallest violin playing a soul wrenching piece...just for you Airhead. Just for you.
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LOL Still a bit o' hard feelings over my Euro comments, huh?
:D
Like I said, I grew up blessed- and wouldn't trade my background for all the pink bermuda shorts wearing accountants' backgrounds on the entire island of Bermuda put together.
Save the sympathy, send cash instead.
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Happy birthday, mom.
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lol
I was just checking to see if I was still on your ignore list. Apparently not.
But, hey...if you are any good I can use a new gardener. Hell, you could even plant some tomatoes and stuff.
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Airhead,
Why did you block Curval, since when are the bahamas part of europe?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Airhead,
Why did you block Curval, since when are the bahamas part of europe?
That started off as a spoof, but after the reaction I got, here and on CheckSix, I can honestly say I don't care for most Euro posters.
(shrug) No biggie, all it means is I took Europe off my places to visit list, and whenever a European tourist asks me directions I'll direct them into the nearest high crime ghetto area.
It's all good. :D
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Mexican MBT's gearing up.
(http://www.muttmotorpool.com/mexican.jpg)
Is it M16 on his back ?
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Originally posted by lada
Is it M16 on his back ?
Looks like a G3A3 by H&K. The come in green. The airsoft versions have a problem with body flex, but I like the way the feel shouldered.
(http://www.silentheroes.se/media/handguns/AG3.jpg)
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might be i were wondering about that shape... i were thinking about M14 for a while .. but your hint seems to be correct
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Looks like they use the extendable stock, not the fixed or folding one.
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Originally posted by Airhead
That started off as a spoof, but after the reaction I got, here and on CheckSix, I can honestly say I don't care for most Euro posters.
(shrug) No biggie, all it means is I took Europe off my places to visit list, and whenever a European tourist asks me directions I'll direct them into the nearest high crime ghetto area.
It's all good. :D
I'm not a Euro, so you obvioulsy aren't referring to me.
Geography isn't you strong suit I guess.
:p
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Originally posted by BBQ_Bob
You know how this is gonna end up, some some inbread redneck donutwood and his buddies are gonna be drinking Lone Star Beer (or Pabst) get drunk and shoot somebody trying to cross the border. Who knows they may even shoot an entire family in the name of protecting us from someone who is willing to do a job that nobody else wants.
...and WHAT the hell, if I may ask, is wrong with PBR?? :D
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Originally posted by Curval
I'm not a Euro, so you obvioulsy aren't referring to me.
Geography isn't you strong suit I guess.
:p
You aren't Euro so I'm obviously not refering to you.
Reading comprehension isn't you strong suit I guess.
(shrugs) :aok
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People,mexicans actualy work and they work hard unlike other "brothers",but the idea of spanish becoming second lang. is disturbing.I had to learn eng. why can't they do the same?
(this reply probly off topic,lol)
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Originally posted by Airhead
You aren't Euro so I'm obviously not refering to you.
Reading comprehension isn't you strong suit I guess.
(shrugs) :aok
Gto said this:
Airhead,
Why did you block Curval, since when are the bahamas part of europe?
To which you responded thus:
That started off as a spoof, but after the reaction I got, here and on CheckSix, I can honestly say I don't care for most Euro posters.
(shrug) No biggie, all it means is I took Europe off my places to visit list, and whenever a European tourist asks me directions I'll direct them into the nearest high crime ghetto area.
It's all good.
Now Gto certainly seems to be geographically challenenged, but you answered his direct question about me with an answer about Europe and Europeans.
Dunno..seems to me as if I got "lumped".
I'm like a carrot that slipped past the migrant tomato watcher on duty at the food conyeyor belt down at the processing plant. I got lumped in with all those tomatoes.
:eek:
;) :aok
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Originally posted by Curval
Gto said this:
Airhead,
Why did you block Curval, since when are the bahamas part of europe?
To which you responded thus:
That started off as a spoof, but after the reaction I got, here and on CheckSix, I can honestly say I don't care for most Euro posters.
(shrug) No biggie, all it means is I took Europe off my places to visit list, and whenever a European tourist asks me directions I'll direct them into the nearest high crime ghetto area.
It's all good.
Now Gto certainly seems to be geographically challenenged, but you answered his direct question about me with an answer about Europe and Europeans.
Dunno..seems to me as if I got "lumped".
I'm like a carrot that slipped past the migrant tomato watcher on duty at the food conyeyor belt down at the processing plant. I got lumped in with all those tomatoes.
:eek:
;) :aok
You deny that you are red ? :o
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Originally posted by ATA
People,mexicans actualy work and they work hard unlike other "brothers",but the idea of spanish becoming second lang. is disturbing.I had to learn eng. why can't they do the same?
(this reply probly off topic,lol)
Because your wise professors of English are so lazy that they haven't reformed the spelling for more than a millenium.
I can do it in two months, but I won't.
But don't worry, your Spanish-speaking grandchildren will have to learn Chinese anyway.
Unless the USA conclude the confederation treaty with Russia for joint exploitation of Alaska. :aok
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That rifle looks like a G3 to me.
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I know geography fine. I can point right to the Bahamas on a map!
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I know geography fine. I can point right to the Bahamas on a map!
Too bad 90% don't even know how many states in USA
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Originally posted by NUKE
But Steve, they are not criminals, they just want to work....the real criminals are the people who hire them. Just like drug dealers are not criminals ...the who people buy drugs are.
It's complete racism to want to seal the border like Mexico seals it's southern border.
Comparing an illegal alien that is here in search of work to a drug dealer is idiotic but then it's kind of the knee jerk response one expects of you.
ack-ack
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The point being the logic. People here are saying it's not the illegal aliens fault that they decide to knowingly break the law.....instead it's perfectly okay for them to break the law, because people in the US are hiring them.
The point is, they are breaking the law regardless of their reasons or motivations.
Pretty simple.
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Who said it was okay for them to break the law? That is not "pretty simple" - that's just being simple minded.
Supply and demand, man. As a start, no demand or jobs will make the flow a trickle.
You want simple and fast? Try this: Start seizing assets then deporting the employers and see how fast it stops. The employers should lose their US citizenship. They are no more worthy of citizenship than the illegal immigrants are.
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Rolex, I am taking the extreme view because I know that there are people that do not want to put any blame at all on illegal imigrants whatsoever.
People like President Fox, who refuse to aknowlege that the illegals are even breaking the law. The Mexican government wants the US to make all the illegals legal and then open our border. The Mexican government also sealed their southern border.
I'm saying this: Any illegal caught in the US should be thrown out. Enforce the laws.
No illegal should be getting schooling or free medical care. Screw them all.
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Originally posted by lazs2
ren... yu are probly kidding but... cheap labor is not the way to keep farm prices down... there is no cheap way to produce food when you depend on labor.
Yes, lazs2, I'm just joshing folks. It's amazing that there are web sites and blogs dedicated to these discussions/debates yet we just gotta move em to the O'Club to go over and over em, ad nauseum.:) I'm an old phuart who's been around a while so most of this isnt new. However, I really enjoy talking planes, combat tactics, and aviation related things much more than the Mexican issue.
I guess I'd be safe in asking the following:
Are there illegal Mexicans living and working in your town/city?
Are they taking work and food from your mouths?
Is their miserable pay taking money out of your pocket?
Is our Govt really going to do anything about it?
Does our Govt really want to do anything about it?
Can you do anything about it?
Can you personally change the way our Govt is handling it?
Ever since I was in the Military, way back when we were in a war we wouldn't win and didn't, I've found the Govt really likes it when people talk about things. It has absolutely no value other than you made your point but nothing will change. But at least, you feel good because this being America you can say. "it's all messed up" and no one will shoot you. Will it get fixed? Nope. Does it matter if the Reps or Dems are in office? Nope. The only thing that changes with the parties the RATE that you lose your money not the amount.
So most young American citizens are here making their views known and calling people all kinds of names and nothing will come of it other than some folks may walk away saying to themselves, "boy, that culero, or steve or whoever, sure is a big Aho".
IMHO this is a game and this game has brought people together from all parts of the world to share the comradere of the game. When folks start spewing crap about thier thoughts on what should be done about political garbage, arguments and hurt feelings end up as the result its time to take that BS to the BLOGs and Websites where like aho's, everyone has an opinion and they are gonna make sure you accept theirs or you just an aho. I'd rather not talk about that crap and just call you "friend".
I, myself, would rather just get up in the MA and shoot everyone down. Its a heckovalot more fun! :D
________________
Ren
The Damned
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Comparing an illegal alien that is here in search of work to a drug dealer is idiotic but then it's kind of the knee jerk response one expects of you.
ack-ack
I actually thought of the same comparison two nights ago when culero started in on his racist/bigot attack based on the absurd premis that the cause of the problem in question laid mostly on the employers that were willing to break the law and hire the illegals, and that any thoughts of recrimination on the illegals was a sure sign of a deep seated hatred(racism) of Mexicans, or Latin Americans in general.
The correlation between drug smugglers and resident buyers, and illegal immigrants and resident employers, is entirely relevant, especially as presented by culero and those that support his argument.
In both cases there are people that enter this country illegaly and commit acts that are illegal once they are here. In both cases there are people that live in this country that support those illegal actions with illegal actions of their own. All four groups are wrong. The accusation of bigotry/racism is nothing but a classic example of the modern practice of arguing by labeling the party that disagrees with you with an adjective that elicits emotional reactions from those that are judging the debate. That expectation of emotion, and the loaded wording of the label, is used to derail the original debate. Logical thought is lost, if it was ever there to begin with.
Culero, it could just as easily be said that you are bigoted/racist towards the people that hire those illegals because you blame them instead of the illegals. Blame is not the issue. The issue is the suffocation that our national economy is suffering because of the illegal immigrants crossing over from Mexico. The issue is the lack of concern by our politicians. The issue is the concerted effort by old Senior Fox to stonewall any effort made to curb the illegal infiltration. The issue is the billions of dollars that are funneled out of the US to Mexico every year by these illegals. The issue is the billions of dollars of taxpayers money that is lost in government funded programs to support the illegals' communities that they have set up in our country. The issue is the unknown (to me at least) amount of money spent arresting, putting to trial, and jailing of illegals.
The root of the problem? The cause of it all??......We let it happen. The only way to stop it now is to cut the influx off as abruptly as we can. Cut off the supply of illegal employers as abruptly as we can. Cut off the illegal federal funding as abruptly as we can.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Rolex, I am taking the extreme view because I know that there are people that do not want to put any blame at all on illegal imigrants whatsoever.
snip
You also still refuse to even hint that those who illegally employ the illegal immigrants deserve any blame whatsoever and refuse to even hint we should do something about that part of the problem.
Hence, why your POV, as expressed by you here, seems bigoted, IMO.
culero
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Originally posted by Lazerus
The root of the problem? The cause of it all??......We let it happen. The only way to stop it now is to cut the influx off as abruptly as we can. Cut off the supply of illegal employers as abruptly as we can. Cut off the illegal federal funding as abruptly as we can.
Rhetoric. Not gonna happen. Don't believe me? Note todays date. Bring the subject up again next year. Tell me what's changed.
Sounds good on paper. If you can get anyone that is willing to make the necessary changes read it.
Ren
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I guess I'd be safe in asking the following:
Are there illegal Mexicans living and working in your town/city?
yesAre they taking work and food from your mouths?
in general, yes. Illegals do not just pick crops. Some make $15/hr hanging drywall. Mexico's top foreign source of income is no longer petroleum exports. It is money coming in from migrant workers sent to families back home.Is their miserable pay taking money out of your pocket?
miserable huh? depends on your point of view. $15/hr in the construction trades is not too bad when you were living well below that in Honduras. When the money leaves the country it adds to the foreign trade deficit. It adds to the cost of health care when illegals use emergency rooms and cannot pay the bills.Is our Govt really going to do anything about it?
probably not Does our Govt really want to do anything about it?
not until it becomes a good idea to do it to get re-elected.Can you do anything about it?
join the minutemen and vote.
Ask the Cherokee, the Iroquois, the Dakota, and the Pima what happens when territory is not defended against unbridaled immigration.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Rhetoric. Not gonna happen. Don't believe me? Note todays date. Bring the subject up again next year. Tell me what's changed.
Sounds good on paper. If you can get anyone that is willing to make the necessary changes read it.
Ren
Rhetoric?? Not at all.
Not going to happen?? Probably not. It takes fortitude of character and integrity to be willing to lead a movement like that, and the same thing from the populous to support it. While there may be many in the populous willing to support it, the ones that influence the dissemination of news and information are against it, and the political leaders don't have the nuts to promote it.
That doesn't make anything I posted incorrect.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
I actually thought of the same comparison two nights ago when culero started in on his racist/bigot attack based on the absurd premis that the cause of the problem in question laid mostly on the employers that were willing to break the law and hire the illegals, and that any thoughts of recrimination on the illegals was a sure sign of a deep seated hatred(racism) of Mexicans, or Latin Americans in general.
That is absolute BS, I've never said anything of the sort.
What I have said is that proposing that the only thing we should do about the problem is persecute illegal immigrants is a bigoted POV. I have never said we should allow them to enter the US illegally, only that they would not do so in such large numbers if we eliminated the illegal jobs they seek.
I invite you to remove your head from within your rectal orifice and read upthread, see for yourself.
Originally posted by Lazerus
The correlation between drug smugglers and resident buyers, and illegal immigrants and resident employers, is entirely relevant, especially as presented by culero and those that support his argument.
Actually, I agree its relevant, however your POV seems skewed, although given the depths from which it emanates (see again what I said about where your head is) that does make sense. Let's compare the illegal drug market to this problem.
Drug smugglers and drug suppliers sell their product to individual consumers (those who use the drugs).
Now, we have Farmer John Doe, or fake grass supplier/installer Nuke, who want to save costs so they employ significant numbers of illegal immigrants because they can exploit their needs by paying them less than proper value for their time, and avoid associated costs like FICA contributions, tax accounting, etc.
In this model, I give you that its Farmer Doe or fake grass magnate Nuke who is the supplier (they provide the jobs that draw the immigrants here) and that each illegal immigrant is an individual consumer of what the illegal suppliers supply.
Or are you hallucinating so madly from inhaling what you're inhaling (man, its gotta be tough being that bent over, too) that you imagine the illegal immigrants are somehow all tied together as cohorts in some gigantic conspiracy to provide services? Do you think theres a Wetback Union or something? How is it that you could compare them to the drug suppliers, that's idiotic.
Pull it out and breathe some fresh air, man.
Originally posted by Lazerus
snip
Culero, it could just as easily be said that you are bigoted/racist towards the people that hire those illegals because you blame them instead of the illegals.
snip
The root of the problem? The cause of it all??......We let it happen. The only way to stop it now is to cut the influx off as abruptly as we can. Cut off the supply of illegal employers as abruptly as we can. Cut off the illegal federal funding as abruptly as we can.
I blame all parties involved for their part in this, therefore again, you are full of BS.
My position is that those involved who are moneyed US citizens deliberately subverting our own laws for their own financial gain deserve AT LEAST as much scrutiny and enforcement focus as anyone else involved. I resent them more than the illegal immigrants because these people are citizens here, therefore should know better and care enough to not break the law.
If it weren't for that view problem you're experiencing (must muddy things quite a bit, I'd think) you'd have seen me post several times during this I'm all for having a secure border. I'm just advocating what IMO is the most cost effective way to get it - cut down on the flow by removing their motivation. It will then become much easier to stop the smaller numbers left after that.
culero (oh, and take a shower, that stuff's gonna be caked in yer hair)
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Somewhere along the way to the Mexican border this thread took a wrong turn. I think it was in Tulsa. :D
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again..im about to grow my own lettuce...
CLOSE THE FRIKN BORDER
Akak....do you kwno what 187 is about?...i voted yes....F them..YOU ARE ILLEGAL..im not paying crap for you..Yopu want a drivers license?..lmfao..Come down to the DMV..in MEXICO
They defnlty take jobs here....CONSTRUCTION is huge!!!!...Id rather pay soem guy 12$ then 20$ to hang drywall..thats for sure
you defnlty need to bust employers too..but poloticians are crap..most are
SO..Minutemen..SALUTE....Kik there azzzes down there
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Originally posted by culero
That is absolute BS, I've never said anything of the sort.
Originally posted by culero We wouldn't have the illegal immigration problem if we eliminated the illegal jobs. All we have yo do is work on what's wrong on this side of the border.
Your bigotry, like that of many others, is self-evident. The proof is right here in this discussion.
You are talking about a problem we all agree is a problem (illegal immigration) but you focus solely upon the immigrants themselves and harshly punitive measures against solely them as the proposed solution.
In doing so, and although its been pointed out repeatedly in the discussion (more than once in reply to your posts) you deliberately ignore the fact that the single most important causal factor in this problem is that it is common practice here on the part of US citizens to actively seek out and hire illegal illimgrants for employment.
These US citizens provide the reason illegal immigrants come here (to take these illegally provided jobs). These US citizens cause the wages they pay for these illegally provided jobs to be kept off the books for tax purposes, denying our community its fair share of tax revenue (which the illegals would certainly be glad to pay in order to have their jobs legally, I assure you). These US citizens do so in order that they may have a lower cost to themselves, and often deny other US citizens the opportunity to obtain the jobs they provide to illegal immigrants because they don't want to have to pay at least legal US minimum wage and tax share (remember, employers must contribute half of an employee's FICA and pay bookeeping costs).
We'll ignore the fact, since you obviously do not give a damn, that individuals who wish nothing more than the opportunity to earn an honest wage are being ruthlessly exploited by these US citizens. I direct your attention to the fact that rather than include enforcement of current lawthat's all he stated he wants and even perhaps enhancements of the law designed to compel compliance on the part of employers, you seem to want to blame these wage-earners for the whole problem and seem to want to punish them only. Yet, you ignore what's much more aggregious on the part of US citizens - violation of the laws governing our tax system and our immigration system in order to have lower costs for services, and exploitation of other human beings for the same purpose.
You want to step up efforts to crack down on mostly impoverished laborers who are for the most part only seeking to earn wages in order to feed their families yet continue to ignore the fat cats here who are enriching themselves while providing THE REASON those illegal immigrants come here.
If you (and everyone else who expresses similar views, please understand I'm not singling you out personally by replying to your post) don't think you are bigoted, you need to do some self-examination, IMO.
This isn't by way of insult, BTW. I myself have been squarely where you are now, when I was much younger (I was raised to be a bigot). I've been able to rise above that. I'm trying to give you (and others) a hand up by sharing what I feel is a better understanding of ALL the factors involved, and ALL the people involved. Keep in mind when considering that the fact I've grown up living a ten-minute drive from the border and that I both speak both languages involved and interact with both classes of people I'm discussing every day of my life. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that I may have a greater fund of experience to draw upon regarding this issue than most here. I'm honestly just trying to promote better understanding, not bust chops.
culero[/B]
Originally posted by culero
What I have said is that proposing that the only thing we should do about the problem is persecute illegal immigrants is a bigoted POV.
It's not persecution, it's prosecution. This is a link (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=persecution) that will start you on your education. You can type the other word in the space at the top of the screen and compare the two. You might try "bigoted" too.
Originally posted by culero
I invite you to remove your head from within your rectal orifice and read upthread, see for yourself.
I quoted the "upthread" that was pertinent in this post. You might want to read what you posted.
Originally posted by culero
Actually, I agree its relevant, however your POV seems skewed, although given the depths from which it emanates (see again what I said about where your head is) that does make sense. Let's compare the illegal drug market to this problem.
Drug smugglers and drug suppliers sell their product to individual consumers (those who use the drugs).
Now, we have Farmer John Doe, or fake grass supplier/installer Nuke, who want to save costs so they employ significant numbers of illegal immigrants because they can exploit their needs by paying them less than proper value for their time, and avoid associated costs like FICA contributions, tax accounting, etc.
In this model, I give you that its Farmer Doe or fake grass magnate Nuke who is the supplier (they provide the jobs that draw the immigrants here) and that each illegal immigrant is an individual consumer of what the illegal suppliers supply.
The illegal immigrants are the suppliers of labor. They are selling their services. They are the ones that recieve compensation, therefor they are the suppliers. Simple economics, simple language comprehension. I'll ignore the repeated inuendoes of drug use and chalk them up as another attempt at the classic example of the modern practice of arguing by labeling the party that disagrees with you with an adjective that elicits emotional reactions from those that are judging the debate.
Originally posted by culero
oh, and take a shower, that stuff's gonna be caked in yer hair
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
Akak....do you kwno what 187 is about?...i voted yes....F them..YOU ARE ILLEGAL..im not paying crap for you..Yopu want a drivers license?..lmfao..Come down to the DMV..in MEXICO
I take it you're Nuke's cross burning buddy? You should sober up before you post BGB, unless you like making a drunken arse out of yourself.
ack-ack
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And Nuke wonders why he's called a bigot...
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke 1.jpg)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke2.jpg)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Lazerus
It's not persecution, it's prosecution. This is a link (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=persecution) that will start you on your education. You can type the other word in the space at the top of the screen and compare the two. You might try "bigoted" too.
I quoted the "upthread" that was pertinent in this post. You might want to read what you posted.
I stand by what I said. It cannot be denied that if people here wouldn't illegally employ illegal immigrants, there would be no motivation for most of the current illegal immigrants (the ones who are here to work illegally) to be here.
That said, where you are wrong is in saying I've blamed the problem solely on employers, and make any enforcement against illegal immigrants a racist act. I'm on record as wanting all current law enforced, including immigration law. I live directly on the border, I am obviously in a position to be benefitted by better integrity of that border.
I'm saying that could be most effectively accomplished by focusing on illegal employers because they are here, visible, and available for inspection. It seems to me that investing huge efforts in ramping up a "Fortress America"-style type of border security system focused on seeking out a class of people would be more expensive than auditing employers, and would also tend to be oppressive in terms of breakdown of civil liberties (you're talking about creep toward "police state" there).
But nowhere have I said that by enforcing immigration law one becomes a bigot. I am saying that those who refuse to acknowledge that illegal employers are a factor in the problem and choose to look solely toward harsh punitive measures against the illegal immigrants as their proposed solutions seem to be bigoted, and I stand by that.
Originally posted by Lazerus
The illegal immigrants are the suppliers of labor. They are selling their services. They are the ones that recieve compensation, therefor they are the suppliers. Simple economics, simple language comprehension.
snip
So, you deny that an employer who makes the deliberate decision to employ via the illegal labor pool doesn't benefit financially from that decision? You deny he is therefore compensated by doing so? You deny that the jobs he so provides are not a tangible resource that people seek?
Simple economics, indeed. As I said, this portion of your argument is clear proof that you suffer from a case of rectal-cranial inversion.
culero (sorry, couldn't help borrowing a radio DJs phrase ;))
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And Nuke wonders why he's called a bigot...
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke 1.jpg)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke2.jpg)
ack-ack
Yeah, seeing that its pretty damn absurd to see him threatening to "complain to HTC" about someone calling him a bigot, eh?
culero (just saying)
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What is a beaner ?
I guess it's derogatory but I can't figure what it mean
All I've found is this :
a baseball deliberately thrown at the batter's head
I don't see the relation.
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Originally posted by straffo
What is a beaner ?
I guess it's derogatory but I can't figure what it mean
All I've found is this :
I don't see the relation.
some of the anglo types refer to hispanics as beaners because beans are a staple in our diet. frijoles negro, arroz blanco con vaca frita anyone? we don't worry about that here in Miami because we have mostly driven them north by
1. conquering most of their wimmins
2. having large families (see number one)
3. the havana- miami inner tube highway
4. becoming the export capital of the United States
5. inventing south beach
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Originally posted by straffo
What is a beaner ?
I guess it's derogatory but I can't figure what it mean
All I've found is this :
I don't see the relation.
Its an example of the complex nature of language. Identically spelled terms may have different meanings depending on context.
"Beaner" is correctly defined as you found it, when speaking of baseball and meaning a type of pitch.
However, when speaking of people, and calling them "beaner", one is using a term meant to be derogatory to Mexicans or those with Mexican cultural roots. The reference is because traditionally a major component in Mexican basic diet is beans.
Using "beaner" to describe a person is thus an example of bigoted behavior.
culero
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Originally posted by ATA
People,mexicans actualy work and they work hard unlike other "brothers",but the idea of spanish becoming second lang. is disturbing.I had to learn eng. why can't they do the same?
(this reply probly off topic,lol)
There is a pretty good reason to learn spanish in US: spanish speakers in US, Mexico, Central and South America are customers or potential customers. If you want to do bussiness with them, you better learn their language. Certainly, speaking spanish and english correctly is or will be a very important factor for young people looking for a job in US. Is just a reason of market.
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I guess I'm a bigot too.
Personally I think ALL the illegals should be deported and anyone hiring them should be fined or put in jail.
I also think that all you guys that are supporting the illegals are retards.
There is nothing you can say that could make it "OK" for them to be here.
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Slight hijack:
Remember the Cheech & Chong movie when Cheech was singing his "Mexican American Song"?
"Mexican Americans
Don't like to get up early
In the morning
But they have to
So they do it real slooooooww.
Mexican Americans
They go to night school
And take Spanish
And get a Beeeeeeeee
Then Chong says he's been working on a similar song which went:
Beaners
Beaners
.......Eat Beans
Beaners
Beaners
.......Will kick you in the face
lol
The look on Cheech's face was priceless.
Funny stuff. But Beaner is DEFIANTELY a degrogatory term for Airhead's people.
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ren... I am probly your age. I have no love of government either. I don't really want to see troops at the border. I don't think that would solve the problem.
I have as much disdain for the parties as you do but feel that there are minor differences (democrats are more socialist and womanly for instance). They all spend their time taking as many of my rights away as possible and extorting as much money from me as possible but..
I am cynical enough and been around enough to know that they are crisis driven. If enough people percieve a crisis and have a solution in mind... they will act like it is the greatest idea in the world and push it through with huge amounts od publicity... especially if no voting group is affected adversly.
Jail employers... You asked how the low wages affedted me,,, How illegals affected me..Holden answered for me... I was in construction...the wages have dropped 40% or more because of illegals.
I believe that talk sometimes helps... you claim it makes us toadies of the government... I don't really see why you are even in the thread then? This must be an extremely important thing to you to make yourself into a toady of the government...
lazs
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
again..im about to grow my own lettuce...
CLOSE THE FRIKN BORDER
Akak....do you kwno what 187 is about?...i voted yes....F them..YOU ARE ILLEGAL..im not paying crap for you..Yopu want a drivers license?..lmfao..Come down to the DMV..in MEXICO
They defnlty take jobs here....CONSTRUCTION is huge!!!!...Id rather pay soem guy 12$ then 20$ to hang drywall..thats for sure
you defnlty need to bust employers too..but poloticians are crap..most are
SO..Minutemen..SALUTE....Kik there azzzes down there
They don't take any jobs, the jobs are given to them.
As for illegal labor, the problem isn't the supply, it's the demand.
Of course our government attacks the problem in the most expensive and backward way. Much like the war on the drug supply.
As long as there is a demand for illegal labor, there will be a supply of illegal laborers.
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yep... that is exactly it... trying to plug holes in the sieve we have for a border is a huge waste of resources when everyone is simply looking the other way and hiring a roofing contractor with a crew of 20 mexican illegals to do the roof on their house... even tho they are getting a substandard job.... it's cheaper.
lazs
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And Nuke wonders why he's called a bigot...
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke 1.jpg)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke2.jpg)
ack-ack
AKAK, should I post what you were saying to me before I responded? Let's see, past few nights you've been telling everyone that I'm a bigot and that I burn crosses and have a white robe.
You really are pretty sad. You keep calling me a racist for absolutely no reason, then finnally I decide to call you a beaner in response ( is that racsist?? I eat beans).
AKAK, why do you insist on calling me a bigot? Can you point to one thing I ever sai that woould be considered racist?
Laz, going after employers would help a lot, but so would kicking out every single illegal caught in the country. Every family, kid, granny......anyone who is not legally here could easily be thrown out, but nobody enforces the laws.
Don't give illegals drivers licenses or let their kids go to school....and deport them as soon as they are found.
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Originally posted by culero
Yeah, seeing that its pretty damn absurd to see him threatening to "complain to HTC" about someone calling him a bigot, eh?
culero (just saying)
what he didn't tell you was that he had been provoking me all night and the other night by telling everyone I'm a bigot, burn crosses and wear a white robe. In fact, he has said that many times.....it's his standard attack against me.
All I have ever said is that I want all illegals thrown out of the country......and he thinks that's racist.
And I was filming the whole thing in case AKAK thinks he can complian and try to come off as the victim.
Yeah, I take EXTREME offense to being called a bigot. I take extreme offense to what AKAK was saying on channel 200.
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Thanks Storch && Culero
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Originally posted by NUKE
Don't give illegals drivers licenses or let their kids go to school....and deport them as soon as they are found.
Imagine there is some countries where the situation is worse !
They even give the kid their nationality when 18.
rolleye emoticon here.
Btw I've nothing against ,to change this we have to change our constitution I think.
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Originally posted by MANDO
There is a pretty good reason to learn spanish in US: spanish speakers in US, Mexico, Central and South America are customers or potential customers. If you want to do bussiness with them, you better learn their language. Certainly, speaking spanish and english correctly is or will be a very important factor for young people looking for a job in US. Is just a reason of market.
True,we gonna have to learn chinese as well:lol
Don't worry about mexicans,they take jobs that nobody would take,they don't take somebodys money they work for the money.
Worry about welfare people........and please don't call me racist
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Originally posted by straffo
Imagine there is some countries where the situation is worse !
They even give the kid their nationality when 18.
rolleye emoticon here.
Btw I've nothing against ,to change this we have to change our constitution I think.
How would you like at least 20 million people living in your country who do not pay taxes, drain the healthcare system and get taxpayer benifits?
In Arizona alone, 500,000 illegals were caught just last year. That's only the one's that were caught, probably most at the border. Many times that number liver here and nobody really does anything about it.
And going after employers will not solve the problem, but would be a big help. The easiest way to get rid of them is to throw them out any time they are identified......traffic tickets, schools, emergency rooms. Just start weeding them out every day.
Going after employers might be expensive and require investigations and resources. Catching them in their every day lives would be easie, imo.
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Originally posted by ATA
Don't worry about mexicans,they take jobs that nobody would take,they don't take somebodys money they work for the money.
wrong. Illegals have taken over labor jobs by working for dirt cheap, which alters the pay scale for legal workers.
They virtually have locked up construction labor jobs.....jobs that paid descent money to hard-working legal citizens are now taken by illegals who work for nothing and don't pay taxes. It works that way for any job they take. They drive wages down.
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Here is a more realistic reason to deport ilegals - Our Health.
I personaly avoid as many illegals as I can identify becuase I'm not interested in getting TB, Hepititus, or what ever they are carrying because of the environment they are coming from.
They are draining our health care services becuse of some very nasty diseases they get diagnosed with while going in for routine booboos, or to get pre natal checks, or while having the kids looked at, or they got hurt on that roofing or construction job. California has closed close to 70 emrgency rooms and hospitels due to illegals draining the services here. It's funny how TB has been cropping up in our hospitels and infecting our citizens who go in for a routine visit. Some of them don't leave alive because of it.
Diasease don't care if you are pro illegal or agaisnt the illegals or a bigot or secretly want the US reconqesta'd. It's an equal opportunity killer. The media bless their evil littel hearts is keeping this one very quiet. So how many innocent U.S. citizens you guys want dead?
FROM JOSEPH FARAH'S G2 BULLETIN
Is CDC covering up skyrocketing TB rate?
Insiders say center trying to 'cook the books,' 'spin the numbers'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 19, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Editor's note: Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin is an online, subscription intelligence news service from the creator of WorldNetDaily.com a journalist who has been developing sources around the world for almost 30 years.
Đ 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
WASHINGTON The Centers for Disease Control is trying to "cook the books" and "spin the numbers" in a new report that downplays the spread of tuberculosis in the U.S., insiders within the Atlanta-based U.S. agency tell the premium, online intelligence newsletter Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.
The CDC released a report today portraying a serious TB threat worldwide and a declining disease rate within the U.S. But the CDC, say insiders, is not coming clean on the increasing domestic threat, largely posed by dramatic population increases in recent years by illegal immigrants.
More than one-third of the global population is infected with the tuberculosis bacterium, and TB disease remains one of the world's leading causes of disease and death, the CDC says. Each year, 8 million people become ill with TB, and 2 million people die from the disease.
In fact, next Thursday, March 24, is World TB Day, marking the date in 1882 that scientist Robert Koch announced his discovery of the TB bacterium. The World Health Organization now uses the annual day as an international call to action against the disease.
The CDC report emphasized the latest national surveillance data show a significant, but slowing, decline in the case rate of TB. In 2004, a total of 14,511 TB cases were reported in the U.S. The overall TB case rate 4.9 per 100,000 persons was the lowest rate ever recorded since reporting began in 1953. However, the decline in the case rate from 2003 to 2004 was one of the smallest in more than a decade (3.3 percent compared with an average of 6.8 percent per year), the CDC acknowledged.
The agency also said that "despite the nationwide downward trend, TB continues to exact a severe toll on many U.S. communities. Seven states now bear more than half the total burden of TB disease in the U.S. California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and Texas account for 59.9 percent of the national case total. The toll continues to be greatest among minority and foreign-born individuals, who consistently have higher rates of TB disease.
But CDC sources say the report is a reflection of "political correctness" inside the agency a political effort to whitewash what some health officials see as an alarming new threat of TB's spread largely by illegal foreign immigrants.
"When you acknowledge, as the CDC has, that one-third of the world's population is carrying this bacterium and you admit that we have some 20 million foreigners inside this country largely unaccounted for, you begin to understand the threat," said one G2 Bulletin source. "It's serious. And the facts are being withheld from the American people because of political correctness toward the question of illegal immigration."
The CDC does offer some interesting statistics in its report:
In 2004, minority populations had rates of TB significantly higher than the overall U.S. average. The 2004 TB case rate among Asians was 20 times higher than that among whites (26.9/100,000 and 1.3/100,000, respectively), while blacks (11.1/100,000) and Hispanics (10.1/100,000) each had rates eight times higher than whites.
In 2004, for the first time, there were more cases of TB among Hispanics than any other ethnic group. However, the TB rate among Hispanics decreased slightly from 10.3 in 2003 to 10.1 in 2004. This divergent trend was the result of a 3.6 percent increase in the U.S. Hispanic population between 2003 and 2004.
The TB rate among foreign-born individuals (22.5/100,000) was nearly nine times the rate among persons born in the United States (2.6/100,000). Individuals born outside the United States accounted for more than half (7,701 cases, or 53.7 percent) of all new TB cases in 2004.
While the TB rate among U.S-born persons has declined 64.6 percent over the past 12 years, the rate among foreign-born persons has declined only 33.9 percent.
Ninety-five percent of Asians reported to have TB in the U.S. in 2004 were foreign-born. Foreign-born individuals also accounted for the majority 74 percent of cases among Hispanics in the U.S. Globally, Asia accounts for the largest number of TB cases. The impact of TB on Mexico is also worrisome because many Hispanics diagnosed with TB in the U.S. were born in that country.
"Even though preventable and treatable, TB remains a serious airborne disease one with the ability to adapt, grow stronger, and travel from one country to another as easily as people do," said the report. "The health threat must continue to be taken seriously, both here in the U.S. and abroad."
The CDC also acknowledged the border problems by suggesting the agency was attempting to address them by strengthening "global partnerships to address TB among populations hardest-hit by the disease."
"These efforts include improving overseas screening for immigrants and refugees, and testing recent arrivals from high-incidence countries for latent TB infection," the report said. "CDC is also improving the notification system that alerts local health departments about the arrival of immigrants who are known or believed to have TB, and collaborating with public health teams in Mexico to improve TB control among those who frequently cross the U.S.-Mexico border."
Last week, a report in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons blew the whistle on the way illegal immigration is threatening to destroy America's prized health-care system.
"The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences," writes Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of the report. "We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen."
According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.
In addition, the report says, "many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease."
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Originally posted by NUKE
AKAK, should I post what you were saying to me before I responded? Let's see, past few nights you've been telling everyone that I'm a bigot and that I burn crosses and have a white robe.
Hmmm...you still wonder why I call you a bigot and a cross burner? And here I thought you had a brain but like all bigots, you don't.
You really are pretty sad. You keep calling me a racist for absolutely no reason, then finnally I decide to call you a beaner in response ( is that racsist?? I eat beans).
See the above comments and then take a look at the screenshot of your comments in the MA. And still you wonder why I call you a bigot?
AKAK, why do you insist on calling me a bigot? Can you point to one thing I ever sai that woould be considered racist?
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/images/nuke2.jpg)
Again, you still wonder why I call you bigot? You're really not all that bright are you?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hmmm...you still wonder why I call you a bigot and a cross
Again, you still wonder why I call you bigot? You're really not all that bright are you?
ack-ack
Yeah, I do wonder. Because I never uttered a racist comment and yet you have been calling me a cross burning, white robe wearing bigot for a long time. Then, since you felt so at ease with calling me those names all over channel 200, I decided to call you a beaner in response to your taunts.
I really am not the kind of person that would complain to HTC about anything.....I never have, but if you continue your defamation, I will let HTC deal with you.
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akak..i still call u crap..
187 is good...KIK THE ILLEGALS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They DO TAKE JOBS!!!..they WORK FOR LESS..........YEs employers are the problem also..
BUT..ill tell you one thing..close the godam borders and we dont have to worry about employers..F them too..THERE BREAKING THE LAW
akak..this is just 1 small part of 187...woudl you liek to post what you dotn like about 187?..PLEASE do..
and..LOLOLOL I love theat cheech and C one..BEANERS........eat Beans.....Beaners.....will kick you in the face...that was rigth before his hot date that he fell asleep on..
http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/prop187text.html
PROPOSED LAW
SECTION 1. Findings and Declaration.
The People of California find and declare as follows:
That they have suffered and are suffering economic hardship caused by the presence of illegal aliens in this state.
That they have suffered and are suffering personal injury and damage caused by the criminal conduct of illegal aliens in this state.
That they have a right to the protection of their government from any person or persons entering this country unlawfully.
Therefore, the People of California declare their intention to provide for cooperation between their agencies of state and local government with the federal government, and to establish a system of required notification by and between such agencies to prevent illegal aliens in the United States from receiving benefits or public services in the State of California.
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Sounds like good and sound legislation to me.
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And just incase culero has not looked at the cost to his fellow "Texan Citizens" of illegal immigrants...........
http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=2669&c=55#FileAttach
Costs of Illegal Immigration to Texans: Executive Summary
Analysis of the latest Census data indicates Texass illegal immigrant population is costing the states taxpayers more than $4.7 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated tax contributions of illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to more than $3.7 billion per year. The annual fiscal burden amounts to about $725 per Texas household headed by a native-born resident.
This analysis looks specifically at the costs to the state for education, health care and incarceration resulting from illegal immigration. These three are the largest cost areas, and they are the same three areas analyzed in a 1994 study conducted by the Urban Institute, which provides a useful baseline for comparison ten years later. Other studies have been conducted in the interim, showing trends that support the conclusions of this report.
Other significant costs associated with illegal immigration exist, and these too should be taken into account by federal and state officials. Even without accounting for all of the numerous areas in which costs associated with illegal immigration are being incurred by Texas taxpayers, the program areas analyzed in this study indicate that the burden is substantial and that the costs are rapidly increasing.
The more than $4.7 billion in costs incurred by Texas taxpayers annually result from outlays in the following areas:
Education. Based on estimates of the illegal immigrant population in Texas and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Texans spend more than $4 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. About 11.9 percent of the K-12 public school students in Texas are children of illegal aliens.
Health Care. Taxpayer-funded medical outlays for health care provided to the states illegal alien population amount to about $520 million a year.
Incarceration. The uncompensated cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in Texass state and county prisons amounts to about $150 million a year (not including local jail detention costs or related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration).
State and local taxes paid by the unauthorized immigrant population go toward offsetting these costs, but they do not come near to matching the expenses. The total of such payments can generously be estimated at slightly less than $1 billion per year.
The fiscal costs of illegal immigration do not end with these three major cost areas. The total costs of illegal immigration to the states taxpayers would be considerably higher if other cost areas such as special English instruction, welfare programs used by the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens, or welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal alien workers were also calculated.
While the primary responsibility for combating illegal immigration rests with the federal government, there are many measures that state and local governments can take to combat the problem. Texans should not be expected to assume this already large and growing burden from illegal immigration simply because local businesses or other special interests benefit from being able to employ lower cost workers. The state could adopt measures to systematically collect information on illegal alien use of taxpayer-funded services and on where they are employed. Policies could then be pursued to hold employers financially accountable.
The state could also enter into a cooperative agreement with the federal government for training local law enforcement personnel in immigration law so illegal immigrants apprehended for breaking the law can be expeditiously turned over to the immigration authorities for removal from the country. Similarly, local officials who have adopted sanctuary measures that shield illegal aliens from being reported to the immigration authorities should be urged to repeal them.
Texas has also voluntarily adopted policies that add to the cost burdens of illegal immigration. While all states are compelled under a 1982 U.S. Supreme Court decision to provide a free K-12 education to all children, irrespective of their immigration status, they are under no obligation to subsidize education beyond that point. Nevertheless, the Texas legislature and Governor Perry have decided to grant in-state tuition benefits at public colleges and universities to illegal aliens.
It is unreasonable for a state to expect federal assistance to compensate for the fiscal burden of illegal immigration if it is pursuing policies that encourage illegal aliens to come and remain in the state.
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hold those who hire illegals rigidly accountable with more than a little slap on the wrist.
when the well dries up, they will stay at home and work on thier own economy. then, when they are kicking our butts we can go down there and work illegally...or alternatively we could open the borders, allow free markets to work and quit being such elitist snobs.
no. i dont think we should offer them healthcare...and i think permits should be required..but i also think that we should give them freely.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, I do wonder. Because I never uttered a racist comment and yet you have been calling me a cross burning, white robe wearing bigot for a long time. Then, since you felt so at ease with calling me those names all over channel 200, I decided to call you a beaner in response to your taunts.
I really am not the kind of person that would complain to HTC about anything.....I never have, but if you continue your defamation, I will let HTC deal with you.
The bigot is insulted about being called what he is? How ironic...
ack-ack
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
akak..i still call u crap..
You better hurry up, heard Wal-Mart is having a sale on white sheets and pillow cases. While you're at it, pick up some for Nuke, I'm sure the one he has are all sooty by now.
ack-ack
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More on the Health Crisis of Iliiegal Immigration that's being Non-Reported by the evil hearted Liberal media.
Being in contact with illegals can mean catching diaseases that will kill you. Eating at restarunts that hire illegals can mean catching Heppatitus. Using public restrooms in areas illegals frequent can make true all those Highschool health movies. I would rather some head in the sand call me a racist or a bigot than die from these diaseases. This is what we babyboomers will be retiring to..................this is the real possible biomass WMD we can face.
Folks choose:
Your TAXES, your HEALTH, or CRIME. Everywhere in the U.S. that has high crime rates, high local taxes, and backrupted health care has had the highest influx of illegal aliens in the last 10 years. Also it looks exactly like the Blue state Red state voting map from the last election.
http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=2663&c=13
Illegal Immigration and Public Health
The impact of immigration on our public health is often overlooked. Although millions of visitors for tourism and business come every year, the foreign population of special concern is illegal residents, who come most often from countries with endemic health problems and less developed health care. They are of greatest consequence because they are responsible for a disproportionate share of serious public health problems, are living among us for extended periods of time, and often are dependent on U.S. health care services.
Public Health Risks
Because illegal immigrants, unlike those who are legally admitted for permanent residence, undergo no medical screening to assure that they are not bearing contagious diseases, the rapidly swelling population of illegal aliens in our country has also set off a resurgence of contagious diseases that had been totally or nearly eradicated by our public health system.
According to Dr. Laurence Nickey, director of the El Paso heath district Contagious diseases that are generally considered to have been controlled in the United States are readily evident along the border ... The incidence of tuberculosis in El Paso County is twice that of the U.S. rate. Dr. Nickey also states that leprosy, which is considered by most Americans to be a disease of the Third World, is readily evident along the U.S.-Mexico border and that dysentery is several times the U.S. rate ... People have come to the border for economic opportunities, but the necessary sewage treatment facilities, public water systems, environmental enforcement, and medical care have not been made available to them, causing a severe risk to health and well being of people on both sides of the border.1
The pork tapeworm, which thrives in Latin America and Mexico, is showing up along the U.S. border, threatening to ravage victims with symptoms ranging from seizures to death. ... The same [Mexican] underclass has migrated north to find jobs on the border, bringing the parasite and the sicknesscysticercosisits eggs can cause[.] Cysts that form around the larvae usually lodge in the brain and destroy tissue, causing hallucinations, speech and vision problems, severe headaches, strokes, epileptic seizures, and in rare cases death.2
The problem, however, is not confined to the border region, as illegal immigrants have rapidly spread across the country into many new economic sectors such as food processing, construction, and hospitality services.
Typhoid struck Silver Spring, Maryland, in 1992 when an immigrant from the Third World (who had been working in food service in the United States for almost two years) transmitted the bacteria through food at the McDonalds where she worked. River blindness, malaria, and guinea worm, have all been brought to Northern Virginia by immigration.3
"By default, we grant health passes to illegal aliens. Yet many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease."
What is unseen is their [illegal aliens] free medical care that has degraded and closed some of Americas finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors.
Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. Illegal Aliens and American Medicine, Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005
Contrary to common belief, tuberculosis (TB) has not been wiped out in the United States, mostly due to illegal migration. In 1995, there was an outbreak of TB in an Alexandria high school, when 36 high-school students caught the disease from a foreign student.4 The four greatest immigrant magnet states have over half the TB cases in the U.S.5 In 1992, 27 percent of the TB cases in the United States were among the foreign-born; in California, it was 61 percent of the cases; in Hawaii, 83 percent; and in Washington state, 46 percent. The Queens, New York, health department attributed 81 percent of new TB cases in 2001 to immigrants.
Costs of Medical Care
Immigrants are often uninsured and underinsured. Forty-three percent of noncitizens under 65 have no health insurance. That means there are 9.4 million uninsured immigrants, a majority of whom are in the country illegally, constituting 15 percent of the total uninsured in the nation in the mid-1990s.6 The cost of the medical care of these uninsured immigrants is passed onto the taxpayer, and strains the financial stability of the health care community.
Another problem is immigrants use of hospital and emergency services rather than preventative medical care. For example, utilization rate of hospitals and clinics by illegal aliens (29 percent) is more than twice the rate of the overall U.S. population (11 percent).7
As a result, the costs of medical care for immigrants are staggering. The estimated cost of unreimbursed medical care in 2004 in California was about $1.4 billion per year. In Texas, the estimated cost was about $.85 billion, and in Arizona the comparable estimate was $.4 billion per year.8
One of the frequent costs to U.S. taxpayers is delivery of babies to illegal alien mothers. A California study put the number of these anchor baby deliveries in the state in 1994 at 74,987, at a cost of $215 million. At that time, those births constituted 36 percent of all Medi-Cal births, and they have grown now to substantially more than half or the annual Medi-Cal budget. In 2003, 70 percent of the 2,300 babies born in San Joaquin General Hospitals maternity ward were anchor babies. Medical in 2003 had 760,000 illegal alien beneficiaries, up from 2002, when there were 470,000.9
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Originally posted by LePaul
Forget the Minutemen, get some Civil War re enactors out there..
Better get Union soldiers, no need in having the losing team defend our borders
Now THAT'S a troll:rofl
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The only solution is to weed them out as they are found and also to punish anyone who hires them.
It would not be hard to find most of them and deport them. It doesn't have to be a sealed border to get rid of them and stop them, although I think we need to beef up security at the borders.
The bottom line is that if they are not here legally, they should be deported as soon as they are caught. If they re-enter and get caught again, they should be locked up.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Better get Union soldiers, no need in having the losing team defend our borders
Now THAT'S a troll:rofl
:D
I was almost going to react to that:D But I didn't want to get called a bigot for having pride in the section of the country I come from.
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As for illegal labor, the problem isn't the supply, it's the demand.
If there was no supply, there would be no demand either. Choke off the supply, deport those already here and fine/jail employers caught using illegal aliens as labor.
The problem isnt just the employers as some of you think.
wrong. Illegals have taken over labor jobs by working for dirt cheap, which alters the pay scale for legal workers.
They virtually have locked up construction labor jobs.....jobs that paid descent money to hard-working legal citizens are now taken by illegals who work for nothing and don't pay taxes. It works that way for any job they take. They drive wages down.
When I installed siding on new homes American crews were paid $1.20 to $1.45 per sq foot of the home. Mexican crews otoh were paid as little as $.80 per square foot. Thats a huge savings to the framing contractor, even though the framing contractor has to pay a punch carpenter to fix all their mistakes.
On a 2000 sq foot home the American crew will make at least $2400. On the same home a Mexican crew will make $1600. The framing contractor then pays a punch carpenter $15 - $20/hour for 2 - 3 hours to fix all the mistakes. End result is more profits for the framing contractor and Americans that are more than willing to do the work are unemployed.
I have also seen where an American citizen hires illegal Mexicans for his entire construction crew. Instead of paying an American 15 - 20/hour he pays Mexicans 5 - 10/hour increasing his own profits.
Twice I saw immigration show up on job sites. Both times nearly every Mexican on the job site took off running to avoid arrest.
If you cant come to America legally, then you have absolutely NO business being here.
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Well bustr, you showed those people who think illegals have no effect on our Health care industry that they are wrong. To bad you wasted your time since your posts will most likely be ignored.
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Eflie, better be careful.....with that kind of talk, you might be called a bigot.
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yeah..you...you...you LONG POST HATER!!!!
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Originally posted by NUKE
The only solution is to weed them out as they are found and also to punish anyone who hires them.
It would not be hard to find most of them and deport them. It doesn't have to be a sealed border to get rid of them and stop them, although I think we need to beef up security at the borders.
The bottom line is that if they are not here legally, they should be deported as soon as they are caught. If they re-enter and get caught again, they should be locked up.
Dump them in the far south of Mexico. Very few will be back. The US had to stop flying them to southern Mexico because of that fact. Many just disappeared, or, over taxed resources of the local villages and were driven away, or, were killed by the local criminals\drug cartel\bandits, or returned home and did not try again. President Fox put pressure on the US about it because it worked too well. Mexico's economy needs the billions the illegals send home.
One paper from a conservitive research Instituite suggested that if we clompletely close the Mexican border, Mexico will have an economic slump that will cause sever internal upheaval and then an economic collapse. The billions being sent home fills the gap of Mexico having only the Rich and the Poor with the poor vastly disproportionate in the demographic. You see the same demographic stratification in most countries that practice some form of warlordism, criminal cartelism, or Dictatorism.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Well bustr, you showed those people who think illegals have no effect on our Health care industry that they are wrong. To bad you wasted your time since your posts will most likely be ignored.
10 years ago I would agree. Now with blogs and the preponderance of americans like us turning to the internet to find out the truth, just keep posting on BB's. It's one more hit on a search, or someone saying to a freind that hey I remember reading something on that topic. What you and I write here is not buried from the light of day because some Liberal Editor doesnt agree with us, or because some PC pro illegal immigration slammer tries to quiet us by crying bigot or racist.
In almost all states that have populations of illegals, the tax recovery rate from illegals vs social services utilised by illegals is about 1 to 4-12 in terms of billions of dollars. That is the largest scale of mass theft and fraud in the history of the US. I will not support criminals or stay quiet about being robbed and defrauded. God Bless the Minutemen!
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Originally posted by Elfie
snip
I have also seen where an American citizen hires illegal Mexicans for his entire construction crew. Instead of paying an American 15 - 20/hour he pays Mexicans 5 - 10/hour increasing his own profits.
Yet, its still not clear to you who's the central troublemaker in this tale, and who represents the easiest opportunity for us to work on in order to elminate the problem?
Sheesh, man, get a clue rake.
culero
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Originally posted by Elfie
Well bustr, you showed those people who think illegals have no effect on our Health care industry that they are wrong. To bad you wasted your time since your posts will most likely be ignored.
His wasted bandwidth is ignored because he's illustrating facts we all agree about.
Its the most effective way to solve the problem that's at issue here.
Oh, and what size sheet Nuke wears :)
culero (couldn't resist)
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Originally posted by culero
Oh, and what size sheet Nuke wears :)
culero (couldn't resist)
I want the laws of the US enforced and all illegals deported. What do you mean by your comment?
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Originally posted by NUKE
I want the laws of the US enforced and all illegals deported. What do you mean by your comment?
Yer gonna get abrasion rash unless you un-wad those panties.
culero (always glad to help)
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you think it's okay to label me as a racist? You think it's fine that you imply that I'm in the KKK???
You and AKAK are the bigots. I'm not going to put up with this chit.
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Originally posted by NUKE
you think it's okay to label me as a racist? You think it's fine that you imply that I'm in the KKK???
You and AKAK are the bigots. I'm not going to put up with this chit.
No, actually I think you're a member of the Richard Simmons clique :)
culero (not that there's anything wrong with that)
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Originally posted by culero
Yet, its still not clear to you who's the central troublemaker in this tale, and who represents the easiest opportunity for us to work on in order to elminate the problem?
Sheesh, man, get a clue rake.
culero
The central trouble makers are the illegal aliens. The easiest and cheapest thing to do would be to deport every last one that we find. We need to weed them out as they are found...every day as they go about their daily lives as illegals.
Also, we need to cut them off from any US taxpayer funds and services. That would be easy and also save money.
A secondary measure would be to punish the people who employ them.
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Originally posted by NUKE
The central trouble makers are the illegal aliens. The easiest and cheapest thing to do would be to deport every last one that we find. We need to weed them out as they are found...every day as they go about their daily lives as illegals.
The INS spends how much money already, trying to accomplish that exact mission now for how many years?
How do you propose to manage a successful business if you have no more fiscal sense than that?
Hint: the employers are much less numerous, and more cost effective to focus on because one employer attracts many illegal immigrants (think "bang for buck" here, instead of "I hate little brown people").
Originally posted by NUKE
Also, we need to cut them off from any US taxpayer funds and services. That would be easy and also save money.
snip
It would be MUCH easier if there were MUCH fewer of them to begin with. Of course, the easiest way to accomplish that wouldn't please you so much, would it?
culero (this is too easy)
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Just cut them off from every government service and then weed them out . That's the way to deal with them.
If they can't cash a check, get a license, get a job, go to school, get medical care, buy a house...etc, then they are screwed and easily identified.
Once any one of those criminals gets caught, they should be deported. As it is now, normal law enforcement will not deport them or even arrest them for being illegal.
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If I , as an American citizen were to get a job, paid in cash, and did not pay taxes, would you consider me a criminal? If I were caught doing this, I would be in jail....not like illegals who are just poor victims. They are just trying to make an illegal living afterall.
Screw all illegals and put them in jail if they won't legally imigrate or stay in their own country.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Eflie, better be careful.....with that kind of talk, you might be called a bigot.
I dont care :)
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Originally posted by culero
Yet, its still not clear to you who's the central troublemaker in this tale, and who represents the easiest opportunity for us to work on in order to elminate the problem?
Sheesh, man, get a clue rake.
culero
The problem is two-fold. If there were no employers willing to hire them there would be no illegals. If there were no illegals there would be no employers to hire them....understand that? You make it sound as if its ENTIRELY the fault of American employers, it isnt.
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Originally posted by NUKE
If I , as an American citizen were to get a job, paid in cash, and did not pay taxes, would you consider me a criminal? If I were caught doing this, I would be in jail....not like illegals who are just poor victims. They are just trying to make an illegal living afterall.
Screw all illegals and put them in jail if they won't legally imigrate or stay in their own country.
I took a cash only "paid under the table job" made great money...However it was my choice to file it as income or not...being my choice to try to skirt the govt or not....had I been caught I would have to pay the consequences..I won't tell you what I chose....If an employer gets caught they should too...
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"I hate little brown people
To my knowledge, no one here *hates little brown people*, except maybe in your imagination :D
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You know..with the way people are opening up these days to interacial marrige...it won't be way too far off in the future before the entire world population is a medium brown with slanty eyes...then who will we hate?
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Originally posted by ASTAC
You know..with the way people are opening up these days to interacial marrige...it won't be way too far off in the future before the entire world population is a medium brown with slanty eyes...then who will we hate?
I don't hate anyone, except criminals.
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Short people.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Short people.
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live
They got little hands
Little eyes
They walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
`Round here
Short People are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
To love
They got little baby legs
That stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here
ack-ack
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Originally posted by culero
That is absolute BS, I've never said anything of the sort.
But you did. Perhaps you need to slide yer cranium out of yer rectum and 'read up in the thread'.
Originally posted by culero
the single most important causal factor in this problem is that it is common practice here on the part of US citizens to actively seek out and hire illegal illimgrants for employment.
Originally posted by culero
where you are wrong is in saying I've blamed the problem solely on employers
Originally posted by Lazerus
I actually thought of the same comparison two nights ago when culero started in on his racist/bigot attack based on the absurd premis that the cause of the problem in question laid mostly on the employers that were willing to break the law and hire the illegals
Solely and mostly are not the same thing. Try that dictionary site I gave you a link to.
Originally posted by culeroand would also tend to be oppressive in terms of breakdown of civil liberties (you're talking about creep toward "police state" there).
Who's civil liberties would be violated by enforcing the laws that support the integrity of our borders? I really don't understand where you're coming from on this one.
big·ot Audio pronunciation of "bigot" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot
..."group, religion, race, or politics"...
"or"
OK, so I'm a bigot. I am partial to my own group, law abiding citizens of the USA. Because I want the illegal infiltration of citizens from another country, and their wholesale raping of the economy of my country, to stop. I'll take that label if you want to put it on me.
Originally posted by culeroI am saying that those who refuse to acknowledge that illegal employers are a factor in the problem and choose to look solely toward harsh punitive measures against the illegal immigrants as their proposed solutions seem to be bigoted, and I stand by that.
Originally posted by NUKE
culero, you are ignorant.
I want our laws enforced, plain and simple.
It appears that you refuse to acknowledge that the person you have been arguing with holds the exact position that you accuse him of not having.
Originally posted by culeroSo, you deny that an employer who makes the deliberate decision to employ via the illegal labor pool doesn't benefit financially from that decision? You deny he is therefore compensated by doing so? You deny that the jobs he so provides are not a tangible resource that people seek?
I never denied any of that
Actually, I agree its relevant, however your POV seems skewed, although given the depths from which it emanates (see again what I said about where your head is) that does make sense. Let's compare the illegal drug market to this problem.
Drug smugglers and drug suppliers sell their product to individual consumers (those who use the drugs).
That's as far as you got before your bias prevented you from presenting a reasonable argument.
Now, we have Farmer John Doe, or fake grass supplier/installer Nuke, who want to save costs so they employ significant numbers of illegal immigrants because they can exploit their needs by paying them less than proper value for their time, and avoid associated costs like FICA contributions, tax accounting, etc.
Abbreviated version, we have an indigenous person that uses illegal resources to gain a profit through illegal practices. The comparison is valid.
If you will take the time to pull your blinders off, you will see that the people you are arguing with want enforcement on both sides of the border(illegal employers and illegal aliens). If your claim that you want the same is only lip service, at least have the nuts to admit it.
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It's just logic... we have a sieve of a border... there are not enough troops to shut it down so long as it is rewarding to get here.
If you punish the employers for what they are doing to the rest of us... for their crime... if you had a 5 day waiting period on hires... the demand would go away and you would more effectively be able to use the forces you have to stop the trickle of illegals that would remain.
What is the point of coming here if there is no work or benifiets? sell drugs? wouldn't even drug enforcement be easier if there weren't human waves to sift through?
Continue to punish everyone who breaks the law but concentrate on the strategy that would do the most good with the least harm.
lazs
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Originally posted by ASTAC
:D
I was almost going to react to that:D But I didn't want to get called a bigot for having pride in the section of the country I come from.
Hehe, seems you spit the hook at the LAST possible moment, huh? :D FWIW, VAs a beautiful state, it's politics are jacked up, though
I need a second bag of popcorn, it's getting interesting in here...:rofl
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I'd like to see them issue hunting licenses for illegals.... guarantee i'd buy one!
Why does ANYONE want them here??? So they can do for the US what they have already done for Mexico??? Post troops on the border and have a dusk til dawn shoot to kill order! They are criminals and moreover invaders from the moment they cross the river!
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LMFAO..Akak..
Excelelnt....what happ?..you said 187 is wrong?..but where are your examples??...WHERE!!???
Akak..are you a mexican?...You have soem nationalist pride that allows you to accept illegals over here?...great..
Beannnnners eat Beans...
BEaaaaners..will Kick you in the Face..
"Chong"
AGAIN>>AKAK>!!!!! 187 !!!!..its not only the police code for MURDER..its to kik theses MAGGOTS off out tax dollar
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
I'd like to see them issue hunting licenses for illegals.... guarantee i'd buy one!
That is totally over the top and inhumane! The only justification for shooting illegals would be if we ran out of gophers. Otherwise leave em alone.
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Originally posted by bustr
Dump them in the far south of Mexico. Very few will be back. The US had to stop flying them to southern Mexico because of that fact. Many just disappeared, or, over taxed resources of the local villages and were driven away, or, were killed by the local criminals\drug cartel\bandits, or returned home and did not try again.
LOL Man o man, this is so wrong it's funny. Thank you bustr. :D
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If China can bottle the border between North Korea and China. The U.S. can do the same between Mexico and Cali, Ariz, New Mex, and Texas. It is not a lack of the ability to do it, nor is it even remotely impossible.
Looking back at the total loss cost to all states with illegals stealing public assistance for the previous 5 years, a similar fence like the Isralies have erected could have been put in place from the Rio Grande to the Pacific for half the cost of whats been stolen in the given period. Using state public assistance services as an illegal alien, hospital emergency rooms without paying, and working without paying taxes while funneling funds out of the country is stealing.
The National Guard can be put in place every 2000-5000 yards with patrols of Border Agents covering the remote areas. then airlift them to southern Mexico each day. It will cost about what the illegals are costing us right now, but without the diasease and crime.
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Keep talking like that Bustr and you too will become a bigot like the rest of us :)
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Originally posted by Airhead
That is totally over the top and inhumane! The only justification for shooting illegals would be if we ran out of gophers. Otherwise leave em alone.
No Gophers here... But an overload of illegals and legal aliens... primarily illegal aliens... how sad is it when 3 illegals drive a Atlanta Gas and Power truck on to Fort Gordon... Not one DRIVERS LICENSE among them... then THE ARMY doesnt have the authority to hold them! They cannot hold foreign invaders with fake IDs who cross into a military base in a power truck!!!
I can only hope thet governors of the border states would start taking matters into their own hands... They have the right to do this under the 10th amendment because of the dismal failure of the federal government to do this.
Never forget that from the moment they cross into the country they are criminals and invaders... PERIOD.
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Elfie,
We dont have 10-20 million legal tax generating jobs to support these people. If we did no legal american worker would be on unemployment right now. The deterioration of the the affected states will contiue. The federal government does not have the funds to subsidise these states for this on going bleed out.
Allowing them to stay and making them blanket legal will only generate a larger flood looking for the same thing. And the same bleed out of state resources will escalate. Trying to punish american employers will simply cause them to find new tactics to maintain the lucritive prophit margins. Looking the other way will continue the bleed out and devaluation of the pay scale in any market place they can move into. The same way diaseses take advantage of biosystems untill they kill them.
This is not the migrant workers of yeaster year or even the illegals of 25 years ago. This is a human wave that no longer wants to assimalate. They want the resources available above the border and to recreate the failed incompatable culture to our 21st century culture that has initiated their illegal entry into our country.
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
Akak..are you a mexican?...You have soem nationalist pride that allows you to accept illegals over here?...great..
Beannnnners eat Beans...
BEaaaaners..will Kick you in the Face..
"Chong"
I'm an American of Mexican descent. Do you have a problem with that?
ack-ack
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I don't disagree with you Bustr. Something needs to be done about this and soon imo. I don't believe the problem is solely or even mostly the fault of employers.
You're right about them not wanting to assimilate into our society. They just want to work here and send money back to Mexico so their families can live well.
If they want to immigrate to the US *legally* I have no problems with that. Get rid of the illegals, they cost our economy far to much.
Go ahead Ack-Ack and Culero, call me a bigot I dont really care :)
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This is beyond bigotry.
It is now reaching a proportion and severity that American Citizens have to start making some very hard decisions about what quality of life they wish to live in the next 10-20 years.
Looking the other way with these illegals can only be supported by higher taxes and a failing quality and standard of public services and infrastructure along with emergence of diaseases not seen in the US for decades or ever. The very same issues that are endemic in the countries they are fleeing.
Hand in hand with this will be accepting increased crime rates, high dropout rates from school including the high rates of unemployment in dropouts. This also increases crime rates. All direct factors in finacially breaking the states hosting or harboring them.
You may wish to consider the motives of those calling you a bigot in the face of MOUNTAINS of easy to research data proving this very destructive threat to our way of life.
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Originally posted by bustr
This is not the migrant workers of yeaster year or even the illegals of 25 years ago. This is a human wave that no longer wants to assimalate. They want the resources available above the border and to recreate the failed incompatable culture to our 21st century culture that has initiated their illegal entry into our country.
Now you're going from being wrong and humorous to being wrong and redicilous.
"No longer wants to assimilate?" Go tell that to my local Junior College- thier most popular night school courses are Conversational English, filled up almost exclusively by Mexicans doing thier damndest to assimilate.
And the biggest "problem" in my neighborhood are white tweakers who steal anything not nailed down and thier welfare collecting "old ladies." They're the ones the police are called out to visit bout twice a week- my Mexican neighbors hit the sack early cause they have to get up in the morning and go to work.
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You may wish to consider the motives of those calling you a bigot in the face of MOUNTAINS of easy to research data proving this very destructive threat to our way of life.
I suspect that those calling others bigots have/had relatives here illegally.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I suspect that those calling others bigots have/had relatives here illegally.
Suspect all you want, you're wrong.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Suspect all you want, you're wrong.
ack-ack
It's not like I expect anyone to admit it, and if they did, my money says Immigration would be getting a call :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
snip
Continue to punish everyone who breaks the law but concentrate on the strategy that would do the most good with the least harm.
lazs
Bingo.
culero
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Originally posted by Elfie
Keep talking like that Bustr and you too will become a bigot like the rest of us :)
He sounds more like a moron ~shrug~
culero (yeah, we really wanna have an environment like China)
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Originally posted by Elfie
I don't disagree with you Bustr. Something needs to be done about this and soon imo. I don't believe the problem is solely or even mostly the fault of employers.
snip
You've now officially joined bustr in the moron bin.
culero (employers provide illegal jobs for financial gain, but that isn't mostly their fault. Check.)
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Originally posted by Elfie
snip
You're right about them not wanting to assimilate into our society. They just want to work here and send money back to Mexico so their families can live well.
~coughBScough~
culero (knows what he's talking about, you obviously don't)
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Originally posted by Elfie
It's not like I expect anyone to admit it, and if they did, my money says Immigration would be getting a call :D
Nope, I'm about as gringo as it gets.
I'm just not ignorant.
culero
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Readers of history know that when the great figure of God, or the phrase 'to protect our way of life' appears in a controversy, the shooting cannot be far off.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Readers of history know that when the great figure of God, or the phrase 'to protect our way of life' appears in a controversy, the shooting cannot be far off.
Shades of KristallNacht.
culero
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(employers provide illegal jobs for financial gain, but that isn't mostly their fault. Check.)
Employers dont go to Mexico and recruit potential employees and invite them to cross the border illegally, they dont need to. They hire people who are already here illegally.
(knows what he's talking about, you obviously don't)
I've worked with many Mexicans that do just that. (Work here just to send money back to Mexico)
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This link talks about illegal immigration and it's costs in unpaid taxes to the US Gov't.
http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/05apr/econ_underground.htm
That link also talks about an underground economy and how it is fueled by people immigrating here illegally. Note how the article doesnt say it is fueled by employers looking to hire illegals.
More on the costs of illegal immigration, not only to us but also the immigrants themselves. It also talks about the mindset of legal and illegal immigrants.
http://www.thebatt.com/news/2003/07/21/Opinion/The-Cost.Of.Illegal.Immigration-513348.shtml
When I googled for Illegal Immigrants cost to the US economy I got 1,570,000 hits. I read the first page of results, not one of those sources placed the majority of the blame on employers. The second link I provided also talks about all the US dollars being sent to Mexico each year from illegal immigrants.
No job losses for Americans because of illegal immigrants?
LOSSES TO WORKING AMERICANS/JOBS
11. According to a 2004 study by Harvard Professor George Borjas, American workers lose $190 billion annually in wage depression due to mass immigration; with an average reduction of $1,700 annually for native-born workers.
12. All of the decline in net employment over 2000-2002 period was borne by native-born workers. Native born men face the greatest job competition, according to 2003 research done by Dr. Andrew Sum and associates at the Center for Labor Studies at Northeastern University.
13. Sum and his colleagues also conclude that immigrants have taken virtually 100% of the new jobs created in recent years. This conclusion follows from the fact that more immigrants and fewer native-born Americans were employed in 2002 than two years earlier.
Source: http://www.carryingcapacity.org/checkup_datasheet.html
This is just the tip of the iceberg as far as evidence goes. Do some googling for yourself. Well, dont just google, read also. :D
I guess you can jump in the *moron bin* with Bustr and I Culero. :D
(knows what he's talking about, you obviously don't)
Might want to edit that out of your post before you jump in the *moron bin* with us. :D
*edit* You might try doing some research to support your position, otherwise....it's the *moron bin* for you ;)
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Originally posted by Elfie
It's not like I expect anyone to admit it, and if they did, my money says Immigration would be getting a call :D
Ahhh...so since I'm Hispanic, my family must have come to this country illegally. Is that what you're pretty much trying to get at?
By the way, I have never said that I supported illegal immigration. I am just against the these "movements" who's underlying motives are inspired by prejudice. Show me anywhere in this thread where I state otherwise.
Seņor Ack-Ack
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By the way, I have never said that I supported illegal immigration. I am just against the these "movements" who's underlying motives are inspired by prejudice. Show me anywhere in this thread where I state otherwise.
This *movement* isnt inspired by any sort of racial prejudice. It's based on economic fact.
And, notice the :D behind my statement? Take that statement with a grain of salt ok? ;)
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We need more Mexi's. All the ghetto white boy's are to lazy.
Truth hurt's.
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Originally posted by Regular
We need more Mexi's. All the ghetto white boy's are to lazy.
Truth hurt's.
Talk about stereotypes heh.
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Stereotype's=unbiased truth.
:cool:
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Originally posted by Elfie
Employers dont go to Mexico and recruit potential employees and invite them to cross the border illegally, they dont need to. They hire people who are already here illegally.
Quite true, never said otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that its their willingness to hire illegally and their recruitment of illegals here that lures folks north. If we stop that, we'll be much better off.
Of course, that wouldn't satisfy the agenda to persecute little brown people, would it?
Originally posted by Elfie
I've worked with many Mexicans that do just that. (Work here just to send money back to Mexico)
Oh yes, that's quite common. However, if you spoke their language and associated with them on a social level, you'd find out they do this because they are aware their status here is transitory. They're just taking care of their families.
You'd also find out they'd eagerly pay their share of taxes, invest their earnings in real property here, and become involved in our communities in other positive ways if given the chance to do so. They aren't here to send money back to Mexico, they see things are better here and would eagerly embrace legal residence or US citizenship if they could. Then their money would stay here.
I don't have to ask you how well you know these people you've worked with, its obvious you don't know them well.
I could cite numerous examples of people I know who illustrate what I am saying. They represent the preponderance of Mexicans who are here. I know that because Mexicans (not Hispanic US citizens, or other nationalities, just so you understand I mean Mexican literally) make up probably 25% of the population where I've lived all my life at any one moment. I interact with them in various ways daily, most often using Spanish as the medium of communication. You might be amazed at what a gringo who speaks their language might hear from them (like why they are here, how they rate Mexico vs the US, what they aspire to, etc.)
Just one case in point: a colleague of mine at work is a US citizen, naturalized from Mexico. As a child, he was a gifted student. He and his family realized his potential could be better realized here than there. They did what they had to do to get him in school here by junior high. By the time he graduated high school, he had his citizenship, and a scholarship. He graduated from Stanford University, and is now gainfully employed here, a happy taxpayer. He's bought real property, happily pays his property taxes to support the school system he benefitted from. He's raising a fine family here, who are destined to further contribute to our community in positive ways.
Armando is, admittedly, an unusually successful example, but I give you my belief based on being immersed in the culture of the region that he is typical of Mexicans here in terms of aspirations. They want to be here, contribute here, assimilate, and be exactly what we want in good citizens. Your assertions to the contrary prove your ignorance, and are what prompts me to assume you are likely to be bigoted in your outlook toward them.
culero
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We replaced balcony and stairway railings at a large apartment complex in Pompano Beach recently (Monday through Wednesday last). It had been a while since I was in that neighborhood and I was amazed by the change. The area is predominantly black and it is predominantly a drive through narcotics based local economy. within this sea of illicit trade stands the subject apartment building now filled with nothing but Mexican and Central American immigrants. not a black face within sight which was odd. what a change. instead of the 24 hour a day smell of burning crippy we have the smells of mothers cooking meals, instead of ebonics laced profanity we have the laughter of children playing. 80 individual apartments in the complex with easily 60 doors wide open in the hispanic tradition, enjoying the easterly afternoon breeze. The men are working somewhere. towards the end of the day pickup trucks start to fill the parking lots, mostly construction trade work by the looks of the vehicles. these folks are paying rent. none of it section 8 subsidy I suppose. they have displaced a dangerous criminal element thereby driving up the value of that building. the added real estate value gave the owner the ability to restore/improve her property, this inturn provided work for my company and others working there. all positives from my vantage point. in time others of their kind will arrive and we may see a renaissance of that neighborhood. I gladly welcome Mexican and Central American immigrants to my beloved Florida. they are a positive addition to my community. It reminds me of what occurred in other dangerous but now decent working class neighborhoods in Miami when the 1980 Mariel boatlift brought 100,000 Cubans over night. it has ultimately been a very good thing for Miami and perhaps, the nation.
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I had a place in South Florida for about 5 years, Storch. I've set foot in all 50 states over my 50-some years, but I will never forget the sense of community and pure joy I had when doing business with the Central American and Cuban immigrants in South Florida.
Hard working, industrious, entrepreneurial, generous, talented and/or highly skilled and straight forward business men and women. I know this will sound discriminatory, but based on my experiences, if I had a choice of doing business based on heritage, I'd choose the business owned by a Hispanic, Latin American or Cuban immigrant every time.
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Seems that some of you would solve the problem in the most difficult and dangerous way possible instead of simply shutting down the employers who are, in my opinion, the cause of the problem and the biggest criminals. The employers are the ones that are costing each and every one of us. They are also competing unfairly with the employers who play by the rules.
I also think that becoming a citizen should involve learning about the country and learning it's language. I also think that mexicans make very good citizens.
lazs
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rolex... based on my experiance I would agree with you. I believe it has to do with being appreciative and having a sense of family and community.
They also make good girlfriends.
lazs
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I second that lazs. That is what America is. People seem to have forgotten that most legal immigrants come to America with nothing. They build lives, work hard from the bottom usually and start business.
They probably have better grounded family ethics and work ethics. I'm tired of 3rd generation white trailer trash redneck mentality losers looking down their noses at hard-working immigrants and snearing words like 'beaners' to make up for their small noodlees.
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well... I do know hard working white guys with good ethics and family values... Still..
I believe that a lot of white men and women are (compritively) spoiled.. Some of this is good... it is perhaps (comparitively) spoiled to never go hungry in your life or do without medical care but... that is a good thing.
Once the immediate needs are met tho... A lot of Americans have too much time and money on their hands... American women orid them to spend even more.
Many of the financial get rich quick schemes and scams that many of us called "makeing a living" are thin air and involve no real production or pride of work...
I dunno... lot's of things but we need constant infusion of new blood toi stay vibrant.... we don't need to have a country send us the worst of it's criminal element. We don't need illegals of any kind.
we prosecute the employers, control what is left of criminal border crossers and then... if we need more labor we issue more visas or open up more citizenship.
we all, including the second generation Americans from mexico.. we all are reaping the rewards of our parents hard work... they were promised that if they were citizens their children would be legal and free Americans.
lazs
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Originally posted by Rolex
I'm tired of 3rd generation white trailer trash redneck mentality losers looking down their noses at hard-working immigrants and snearing words like 'beaners' to make up for their small noodlees.
I'm tired of American citizens being called racists and bigots for simply wanting our imigrations laws enforced.
I was called: grand wizard Nuke, told that I wear a white robe, burn crosses, that I suck at the game, that I never fly...just type in the tower, that I also sucked in AW and was a racist and a bigot by AKAK on channel 200 in the game the other day for about 40 minutes straight. I did not initiate the conversation, yet was baraged with this. Then, I decided to see how AKAK reacted to being called names like this, so I asked him if he was a "beaner", then he says "thanks for the screenshot" ( on private) and that he was sending it to HTC. Go figure.
And culero is still tring to make it about racism by saying we want to "persecute" "little brown people" Makes me sick that He and AKAK are trying to make it about racism, then THEY have the nerve to call peple bigots? They are the only ones bringing up race and trying to label people with names.
I have nothing against any person of any race who comes to America legally.
I have said all along that I just want our laws enforced. I want illegals deported as they are found and I do not want them to receive any benifits from US taxpayers. Also, we need to punish people who employ them.
As it is, out Government is just as much or more to blame than the people who hire them. How can you say you would punish employers without punishing the government who allows them to recieve taxpayer services and benifits?
Still, the fact is that illegal immigrants are breaking the law and need to be deported as they are found. I don't see what's wrong with that approach.
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Well Culero, get in the FREAKING MORON BIN! :D
You still havent backed up anything you have said with any kind of research. Everything you have said is just your opinion.
I do agree that employers are part of the problem. The much bigger problem lies south of our border, the Mexican economy just plain sucks. That is what is driving people to try to find a better life. That is what makes people brave the desert to get here.
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Originally posted by culero
You'd also find out they'd eagerly pay their share of taxes, invest their earnings in real property here, and become involved in our communities in other positive ways if given the chance to do so. They aren't here to send money back to Mexico, they see things are better here and would eagerly embrace legal residence or US citizenship if they could.
Really? So why don't they try to become legal citizens the same way all legal imigrants have done?
You're saying they are not given a chance to become legal citizens? What's stopping them?
You see them as victims, nothing more than victims.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Really? So why don't they try to become legal citizens the same way all legal imigrants have done?
You're saying they are not give a chance to become legal citizens? What's stopping them?
You see them as victims, nothing more that victims.
Many of the illegals have no plans to become citizens. One of the links I posted talks about that.
Illegals arent victims, they are criminals nothing more.
*edit* Heck, I am surprised Nuke hasnt been relegated to the Moron Bin along with Bustr and I. :D
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Originally posted by culero
One of the reasons that I want to channel immigration into legal immigration as opposed to illegal immigration (by shutting off illegal job sources) is because most Mexican immigrants, given the chance to, will enthusiastically comply with legal requirements to become US citizens....including the portion of the naturalization requirements that specify basic English literacy.
And, yes, I do know for a fact what the hell I'm saying there.
culero
Wow. You are saying that Mexican immigrants are not given a chance to legally immigrate into the US? Just to be clear, that is what you've said. Correct?
How would you channel illegal immigration into legal immigration? If we punished all employers who hired illgals ( and we should) and got rid of that source of income for illegals, how would that make legal immigration any different than it is now? What would be the difference?
It would be interesting to see President Fox/Mexico's reaction if the US announced that we were going to stop all US employers from hiring illegals and enforce that. What would you guess the Mexican reaction would be? They'd call that racism and descrimination against migrant workers is my guess.
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Nuke, you might as well climb into the Moron Bin with the rest of us, you know you are gonna get sent here anyways. :D
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Originally posted by NUKE
snip
Still, the fact is that illegal immigrants are breaking the law and need to be deported as they are found. I don't see what's wrong with that approach.
What's wrong with it is that it doesn't work. Guess what? That's already the law, it has been being done and continues to be.
You and others like you who insist we can and should ramp up those efforts are ignoring those facts, and how much money is spent doing it - without effect.
You also ignore that its virtually impossible to do so more thoroughly without practically suspending the Bill of Rights. Think. Illegal immigrants look like...people. Yanno, like citizens do? You want a society (like Nazi Germany, etc) where "Papers, please" is common practice?
Wait, check that, you probably do. Well, screw that.
Your obvious bias is blinding you to what everyone arguing against you is trying to get you to see - we ALL want to solve this problem, and abate the flood of illegal immigrants.
We're trying to get you to see that shutting off the bait that draws them here is simply the most cost effective and practical approach. Do that, and then doing what you're advocating will become largely unneccessary.
culero
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Originally posted by NUKE
Wow. You are saying that Mexican immigrants are not given a chance to legally immigrate into the US? Just to be clear, that is what you've said. Correct?
snip
Elfie's right on this - you obviously are a moron (if you read what I wrote and came away with that).
culero
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Originally posted by Elfie
snip
Illegals arent victims, they are criminals nothing more.
They are often both. Many employers exploit the fact they don't dare become visible to the law and thus can't complain of mistreatment.
However, you continue to miss the point. Nobody is saying we should accept illegal immigration. What's really at issue here is the approach to solving the problem. What's most likely to be effective, what's the lowest cost approach (both in terms of $$$ and potential for civil rights abuse), what's the right thing to do (clean up OUR act).
culero
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Originally posted by culero
Elfie's right on this - you obviously are a moron (if you read what I wrote and came away with that).
culero
You said that illegal immigrants would love to become legal residents if given the chance. What's stopping them from trying to become legal citizens like all the other legal immigrants have done?
What did you mean by "if given the chance?"
And you are calling me a moron?
And you are wrong about enforcing our laws and deporting illegals as they are found. There is almost no effort to identify them once they are here. Next to nothing is done to weed them out and send them home.
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We're trying to get you to see that shutting off the bait that draws them here is simply the most cost effective and practical approach.
The *bait* as you put it is the same thing that has drawn immigrants here since the lost colony of Roanoke....the promise of a better life. Whether it means packing up the whole family and moving here, or just crossing the border illegally in the hope that they can land a job, it's still the promise of a better life that draws them here.
Mexican's wouldnt be crossing the border illegally in the thousands if the Mexican economy was more robust. The extreme poverty levels in Mexico is what is driving this flood of illegal immigrants, and frankly there is little we can do about their economy.
They are often both. Many employers exploit the fact they don't dare become visible to the law and thus can't complain of mistreatment.
Frankly, I could care less what happens to any criminal. Once someone crosses our border illegally they become a criminal.
However, you continue to miss the point. Nobody is saying we should accept illegal immigration. What's really at issue here is the approach to solving the problem. What's most likely to be effective, what's the lowest cost approach (both in terms of $$$ and potential for civil rights abuse), what's the right thing to do (clean up OUR act).
I'm not missing any point. We just disagree on the solution. Cleaning up our act would also include far better security on our borders.
An article that details the problems with your solution:
http://www.dailyhome.com/news/2005/as-xgr-0320-asieckmann-5c19s5029.htm
Very little is currently being done to catch employers who hire illegals or to catch the illegals themselves. I got 157 hits when I googled for *efforts to catch illegal aliens*, compared to 1.5 million+ hits on what they cost our economy. Here's what one Arizona lawmaker is proposing.
http://www.americanpatrol.com/05-FEATURES/050125-PEARCE-LOU-DOBBS/0500124-Pearce-Dobbs-Xscri.html
Closing our border with Mexico (and Canada for that matter) will go along way towards stopping the possiblily of terrorists coming in from either of those 2 countries. Closing the border with Mexico has the additional benefit of stopping the flood of illegal immigrants.
You still have not posted any resources to back your claims Culero, so guess what? You get to climb in the moron bin with myself, nuke, bustr and Silat who is otw with a couch and a fully stocked refridgerator! :D Btw Nuke, can you bring a TV? I'll bring a computer, and Bustr can bring a BBQ :D
*edit* fixed a quote
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And you are calling me a moron?
Of course he is, you disagree with him :) Now GET IN THE MORON BIN!! :D
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Originally posted by culero
Shades of KristallNacht.
culero
Exactly... radical action on the borders now may help avert something horrible like that! No-one wants to see it, but it will happen eventually if things continue the way they are going.
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yep... shut off the jobs and the benifiets and then concentrate on the hugely reduced flow of illegals and arrest em.
lazs
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Laz, if we shut off the jobs and the benifits to all illegals, that'd be considered racism and descrimination against "migrant" workers.
Mexico wouldn't support that any more than they support the Minute Men.
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Originally posted by NUKE
You said that illegal immigrants would love to become legal residents if given the chance. What's stopping them from trying to become legal citizens like all the other legal immigrants have done?
What did you mean by "if given the chance?"
And you are calling me a moron?
And you are wrong about enforcing our laws and deporting illegals as they are found. There is almost no effort to identify them once they are here. Next to nothing is done to weed them out and send them home.
What I said - looks like the shoe fits - you obviously have no clue (ride along with some INS guys down here sometime, then peruse their budget and deployment info).
culero
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Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Exactly... radical action on the borders now may help avert something horrible like that! No-one wants to see it, but it will happen eventually if things continue the way they are going.
Radical change in the leniency with which we treat employers would be cheaper and more effective.
culero
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Originally posted by NUKE
Laz, if we shut off the jobs and the benifits to all illegals, that'd be considered racism and descrimination against "migrant" workers.
Mexico wouldn't support that any more than they support the Minute Men.
So?
culero
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Originally posted by Elfie
Of course he is, you disagree with him :) Now GET IN THE MORON BIN!! :D
Is it lonely in there? :)
culero ~smooooch~
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Originally posted by culero
~smooooch~
FLAMER!
Hey culero... check your email please.
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Originally posted by Tumor
FLAMER!
Hey culero... check your email please.
Back at ya, and on it (seeing if we can get a web mirror set up).
Keep it safe bro.
culero
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Originally posted by culero
Back at ya, and on it (seeing if we can get a web mirror set up).
Keep it safe bro.
culero
AWESOME!!... thanks bro!
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nuke... if you shut down jobs for all illegals regarless of race creed color religion or gender... if it were a national 5 day waiting period.... how would that be discrimination?
I understand your point in light of current PC thinking but... what is worse.... massacres and war or a little name calling?
My thinking is that what you suggest will lead to thousands of needless deaths with no solution to the problem. In fact... only the most ruthless will make it here under your plan... survival of the fittest... in this case... survival of the worst.
Under my plan... the politician will garner the vote of the hispanic legals who see their own hard work going southj down the drain.
I don't really care what Fox thinks or pretends to think...
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
nuke... if you shut down jobs for all illegals regarless of race creed color religion or gender... if it were a national 5 day waiting period.... how would that be discrimination?
I understand your point in light of current PC thinking but... what is worse.... massacres and war or a little name calling?
My thinking is that what you suggest will lead to thousands of needless deaths with no solution to the problem. In fact... only the most ruthless will make it here under your plan... survival of the fittest... in this case... survival of the worst.
Under my plan... the politician will garner the vote of the hispanic legals who see their own hard work going southj down the drain.
I don't really care what Fox thinks or pretends to think...
lazs
~golf clap~
Hear hear.
culero
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Originally posted by lazs2
nuke... if you shut down jobs for all illegals regarless of race creed color religion or gender... if it were a national 5 day waiting period.... how would that be discrimination?
I understand your point in light of current PC thinking but... what is worse.... massacres and war or a little name calling?
My thinking is that what you suggest will lead to thousands of needless deaths with no solution to the problem. In fact... only the most ruthless will make it here under your plan... survival of the fittest... in this case... survival of the worst.
Under my plan... the politician will garner the vote of the hispanic legals who see their own hard work going southj down the drain.
I don't really care what Fox thinks or pretends to think...
lazs
Yeah, I know people would call it racism because that's what they labeled Arizona's law barring illegals from government assistance.
Laz, I thought my idea was close to what your idea is. Maybe not. Here is what I would like to see:
1. Stop all forms of government assistance to all illegals
2. punish employers who hire them
3. deport every illegal as they are found
As a side goal, I would want our borders sealed as much as humanly possibl in order to secure our country against possible terrorists trying to walk in..
If you elliminate any one of those three, then the job won't get done correctly or fairly. For instance, you can't allow the government to give assistance to illegals and then turn around and punish people who hire them without having a double standard.
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It's just like guncontrol, we don't need new laws, just enforce the one that we allready have.
The immigration laws of the US are allready ridiculously strenuos. Hell, look at frenchy's case. If we make it so difficult to become an american, where are the new americans going to come from? Half of the ones being produced here aren't any damn good.
Funny thing is, the nationalistic xenophobe racist see's no problem with companies like walmart taking jobs away from americans and outsourcing to inhumane sweat shops and prison camps over seas.
But if they try to circumvent legal barriers to try to improve their families welfare on their way to becoming full citizens, well whoopee that's just immoral. And we should shoot those beaners at the border, before they try to breed our daughters!
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It's just like guncontrol, we don't need new laws, just enforce the one that we allready have.
Thats exactly it. There is precious little being done to stop the flood of illegals into this country.
1. Stop all forms of government assistance to all illegals
There was a Mexican family in Thornton CO (part of the Metro area) that bought a house with a Federal loan....they were here illegally. How the heck did that go through?? From news stories that came out it apparently isnt all that uncommon.
2. punish employers who hire them
You dont hear about employers being fined/jailed for hiring illegals very often.
3. deport every illegal as they are found
I agree completely. It should also be far easier to deport them immediately.
As a side goal, I would want our borders sealed as much as humanly possibl in order to secure our country against possible terrorists trying to walk in..
Google this. This threat is HUGE! Sealing the border against terrorists has the added advantages of stopping the flood of people who walk/drive over the border as well as stopping the illegal drugs as well.
If you elliminate any one of those three, then the job won't get done correctly or fairly. For instance, you can't allow the government to give assistance to illegals and then turn around and punish people who hire them without having a double standard.
Exactly. Some here think that by simply punishing employers the problem will just magically vanish. That is rediculous given the extreme poverty levels in Mexico.