Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Silat on April 01, 2005, 03:21:17 PM
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Understatement of the year:
"On a matter of this importance, we simply cannot afford failures of this magnitude," the report said.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/apress_033105_bushwrong.html
Well I guess Clark , Ritter etc were right after all...............
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who cares
Iraq was the right move at the right time, and the majority realizes it as they expressed last Nov
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Pssst Eagler: (http://www.jeremynicholas.com/jn/images/gramophone.gif)
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What commission wrote that and I wonder who headed it?
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Originally posted by Eagler
who cares
Iraq was the right move at the right time, and the majority realizes it as they expressed last Nov
No, it was wrong. Period.
It was based on lies and propaganda.
We had a choice to wait to see if in fact there were WMD's in existence but our administration pushed for the invasion anyway.
Thing is, we can't say "Oops, my bad" and undo what we've done. Can't bring back the dead or undo the permanent wounds. Rebuilding Iraq to its prewar condition is going to take a lot more money, a lot more. It's going to cost more lives as well.
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Originally posted by Eagler
who cares
Iraq was the right move at the right time, and the majority realizes it as they expressed last Nov
WHO CARES ?????
It was the main argument used and you post "who care" ...
You have jelly in your skull or what ?
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Originally posted by Eagler
who cares
Iraq was the right move at the right time, and the majority realizes it as they expressed last Nov
The assumption here is that everyone voted based on this issue alone, which is of course incorrect. There were many reason why people voted for or against Bush, or hey didn't even vote at all.
And just because the majority of a given group of people thinks something is correct, doesn't make it so. I mean hey, most Germans agree with Hitler's policies, does that make them correct? Of course not.
Come to think of it, all these points are so elementry I real shouldn't have to explain them...oh wait, I'm responding to Eagler. ;)
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I guess every one forgot Clinton, Gore, Kennedy, Kerry oh and lets not for get every other nation on the security council were making the same claims as Bush and I beleive there is a report out that addresses the fact the soviets were moving large convoys to Syria and Jordan days before the war started presumably with WMD. And I beleive the intellegence failure lies in the fact the CIA was unable to uncover the Soviet Covert Operations to move Iraqs WMD out of the country while having their vote bought from the food for oil project.
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Yes, Saburo, As benevolent as Hussein was to his own citizens and with the aid he gave to terrorists, we should have absolutely left him in power.
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Originally posted by Silat
"we simply cannot afford failures of this magnitude"
Literally
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Wow... seem's as though you guys are collectively missing the point. This has nothing to do with the trival AHBB blame game, it's about learning from our mistakes and improving the intel community.
Good article, and the commission appears to have made some good common sense recommendations. It's not about whether or not Iraq had WMD, it's about the fact we thought they did based on the information we had.
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Man Lew, you gonna make me leave this place too?
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Originally posted by Rino
Man Lew, you gonna make me leave this place too?
Hey Im glad our gov is finding the reason for mistakes and hopefully doing something about it... Arent you?
Did you get the package yet?
:D
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I'm with Tumor on this one. Faulty intel on this scale is pretty embarrassing. Are similar inquiries underway in any other nations' intel communities who believed the same, or is this solely a CIA mistake now?
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Faulty intelligence combined with a foreign policy of 'preemptive attack'. Sounds like a disaster just waiting to happen. Or happened.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
No, it was wrong. Period.
It was based on lies and propaganda.
We had a choice to wait to see if in fact there were WMD's in existence but our administration pushed for the invasion anyway.
Thing is, we can't say "Oops, my bad" and undo what we've done. Can't bring back the dead or undo the permanent wounds. Rebuilding Iraq to its prewar condition is going to take a lot more money, a lot more. It's going to cost more lives as well.
If we restored Iraq to prewar condition..it would be a sad shortfall on our part.
Do you know how much we wasted since gulf war 1 trying to enforce the useless UN sanctions? I know I wasted at least 14 months of my life being bored guarding Oil smugglers that Saddam was responsible for. NOt to mention risking my life boarding those ships for inspections. He would force merchant ships that made deliveries to Iraq..to load up on as much oil as they could carry..sometimes an unsafe amount..and then force them out of port at gunpoint.
Or maybe we should have let him go on killing the Kurds...and thousands others. And no matter what anyone else says..no one will ever convince me that he was not helping terrorists in one way or another.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
No, it was wrong. Period.
It was based on lies and propaganda.
We had a choice to wait to see if in fact there were WMD's in existence but our administration pushed for the invasion anyway.
Thing is, we can't say "Oops, my bad" and undo what we've done. Can't bring back the dead or undo the permanent wounds. Rebuilding Iraq to its prewar condition is going to take a lot more money, a lot more. It's going to cost more lives as well.
Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.
That said, they still havent found the stuff that was unaccounted for. VX gas, VX gas precursors, etc.
It wasn't wrong to invade. The only reason that Bush gave for the invasion that didnt pan out was WMD. America is at war, and will be for long after we pull out of Iraq. Get used to it.
*edit* The whole world waited from the Gulf War in 1991 until America invaded Iraq a second time. How much longer do you think we should have waited for Saddam to finally come clean on his WMD programs? We already waited over a decade.
At some point action has to be taken.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.
Your right.
But lets not forget, Saddam didn't exactly bend over backwards trying to show he WASN'T pursuing WMD, or had it. He had countless opportunities and methods of doing so, he just didn't, and used our own worries as a bluff... unfortunately someone finally decided to call him on it, and by then what he did was way too little way too late.
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short sightedness on your part
Iraq IS the future of the middle east
those fallen in the process
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Originally posted by Eagler
short sightedness on your part
Iraq IS the future of the middle east
those fallen in the process
>>S<<
Now when is someone going to get fired for this messup? Tenet quit but got awarded the highest civilian award. Does anyone actually think no one should be held accountable?
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Fired based on what? Intelligence is not an exact science. Few good (smart) analysts use words like "is, will, or has" without prefacing with words like "likely, probably and possibly". You take available evidence and make educated guesses... sometimes your right, sometimes wrong. The intel community did have reason to believe Saddam was pursuing WMD, and his own history only helped levy the assumption. What the community did NOT have was proof otherwise. Want to fire someone? Fire Saddam.
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Originally posted by Silat
Does anyone actually think no one should be held accountable?
We are, the people, we(majority) backed the decision. We are accountable. What are we going to do? You cannot unring a bell.
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"War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it. Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac."
- george orwell
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Originally posted by Tumor
Your right.
But lets not forget, Saddam didn't exactly bend over backwards trying to show he WASN'T pursuing WMD, or had it. He had countless opportunities and methods of doing so, he just didn't, and used our own worries as a bluff... unfortunately someone finally decided to call him on it, and by then what he did was way too little way too late.
To many people forget this imo. The international community gave him well over a decade to come clean about all his WMD programs. He had every opportunity possible to show he had abandoned his WMD programs......instead.....aft er 9-11...he calls America's bluff.....DUMB MOVE Saddam!!
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Originally posted by Silat
>>S<<
Now when is someone going to get fired for this messup? Tenet quit but got awarded the highest civilian award. Does anyone actually think no one should be held accountable?
Should they be? Iirc weren't the Intel services budgets cut during the 90's? If so, how do you blame the Intel guys when they most likely dont have the funds they need to get the job done?
I agree, most of the time people should be held accountable for mistakes of this magnitude. However, consider this. America's Intel services werent the only ones mistaken worldwide. Many were mistaken, including possibly the best Intel guys in the world, the Israelis.
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Elfie, I don't really know you... but I recognize the style.
You're not so much trying to convince any of us, as much as you're trying to convince yourself.
Let go. Then come back. Then talk.
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Silat,
You can google for all this stuff I am about to talk about if you wish, or you can search this BBS for threads where I have previously posted links.
Saddam admitted to having certain amounts of various chemical weapons, facilities for making said weapons and X amounts of precursors plus various delivery methods.
UN weapon inspectors want to see the VX gas, Saddam tells them he dumped some of it out in the desert. When the inspectors ask to see the dump site, sure enough 2 different chemicals were found. Both are used in the production of VX gas, however, it takes 3 chemicals to make VX gas and there is NO trace of the 3rd chemical at the dump site. Iirc 1.5 tons of VX gas is missing. 1.5 tons of a chemical that takes one tiny drop to kill you.
After Gulf War 1 Saddam claims 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas have been misplaced. How do you misplace 550 artillery shells?
Precursors for VX gas are missing, several hundred tons of them iirc. Saddam had no explanation for where those went.
More than once he sent the UN weapons inspectors packing, or refused to allow them access to various facilities.
Even the UN admits to these discrepancies.
We did find evidence that SH was trying to keep his WMD programs alive, evidence was found that small R&D teams were still working. This was on a much smaller scale than the intel community thought before the Iraq war.
We did find two terrorist training camps in Iraq, one in the north and the other outside Baghdad. We thought he was aiding terrorists and he was, although his links to Al-Qaeda are most likely non-existant.
How do you deal with a guy like this Silat? Bear in mind, we gave him over a decade to cooperate fully.
Bush declared war on terrorism after 9-11 and Iraq wont be the end of this war.
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Originally posted by Nash
Elfie, I don't really know you... but I recognize the style.
You're not so much trying to convince any of us, as much as you're trying to convince yourself.
Let go. Then come back. Then talk.
hmmmm.....I think you are out in left field on this one Nash :)
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scratch, claw, scratch, claw.... grasp.
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Originally posted by Nash
scratch, claw, scratch, claw.... grasp.
eh?
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yeah.
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You lost me Nash, this one went right over my head heh
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Well it's a good start, anyway.
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I'm going to bed Nash, I have no clue what you are talking about :)
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Sweet dreams! :)
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The media took one part of the reason for the overthrow of the Iraqi government and I'm going to stick to that one issue because it was the one issue that can't be proven even though most of the governments of the world agreed with it and I think it's the best way to argue my point without looking at what was going on because I cant fault any of the other reasons and i know im right because i just am and no one is going to tell me different because that was the reason and it was wrong and now theres a commision that says it was wrong and that proves im right and theres no reason for me to look at any of the other reasons because that was the one that the news kept telling me it was for and i think it was just...........bad
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Liberating Iraq was the correct thing to do, imo.
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Wow... what a jarring display of humbleness, Yeager.
"x=y, I reckon."
I mean, you have said exactly as much, countless times, but... never quite like that.
"Liberating Iraq was the correct thing to do, imo."
As if this thread needed (unlike the countless others that, say, preceded the actual war in which you spewed absolute ****) your tender touch... and/or a change of approach.
"Liberating Iraq was the correct thing to do, imo."
Right.
And how shrecking trite. Almost compels one to say "Gee."
Just wonderfully refreshing.
I can't make up my mind... which is better? The old obnoxious Yeager or the new ghey one.
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Originally posted by Eagler
who cares
Iraq was the right move at the right time, and the majority realizes it as they expressed last Nov
You may be right eagler, but if the religous fanatics who won the election in iraq do come to power, arent we right back in the same boat? The m ajority rules in iraq is the same religous freaks that we are attempting to pick a fight with in iran? What the hell sense does this make?
In my paranoid fantasy land, I would have bet the farm that our main objective was to establish a permanat military presence in the middle east. In a 'best case scenario' right atop the worlds 2nd largest known oil field which exists in iraq.
In my wildest dilusions, i would have never thought we were actually dumb enough to spend nearly half a trillion dollars on a war to establish a TRUE fricken democracy in a land that hates western culture to the very core! Who do you think is going to win the gaddamm elections?!
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The assumption here is that everyone voted based on this issue alone, which is of course incorrect. There were many reason why people voted for or against Bush, or hey didn't even vote at all.
And just because the majority of a given group of people thinks something is correct, doesn't make it so. I mean hey, most Germans agree with Hitler's policies, does that make them correct? Of course not.
Come to think of it, all these points are so elementry I real shouldn't have to explain them...oh wait, I'm responding to Eagler. ;)
Amen. Bushs job approval rating at the start of his second term was lowere than any other re-elected president in history.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Liberating Iraq was the correct thing to do, imo.
Taking out saddam and his two sons was a moral thing to do as they were mean and evil, however, it was none of our Golly-geem business and we killed more civilians during the war then they could have ever dreamed of killing.
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Keep in mind, at the very same time we were gearing up for war in iraq, to go see if saddam had the can of mustard gas in the desert, kim il jung, by our own administrations admission, a mad man and a memeber of the 'axis of evil' nations, was standing high on a hill screaming thate HE HAD WMD"S and was GOING to use them on japan if we DIDNT MEET HIS DEMANDS. NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL is treated as ho-hum, let china handle it news to bush and his people. Strong evidince of ulterior motives for the war to 'liberate iraq' and 'protect the world'.
Hmmmm, maybe kim il jung isnt so stoopit after all.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
No, it was wrong. Period.
It was based on lies and propaganda.
We had a choice to wait to see if in fact there were WMD's in existence but our administration pushed for the invasion anyway.
....
how long were we to wait? 10+ years not long enough?
showed the world America still "walks the talk"
a free Iraq
military bases in the ME
Lybia
Israel annd Palestine
Syria and Lebanon
Iran
all reasons the invasion has worked, and will go down in history (not the short sighted hand wringing of today) as the best move America could have made at the time
and don't forget the 50cent a gallon gas - "no blood for oil" - yep, it was all about the oil
LOL
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Originally posted by Eagler
how long were we to wait? 10+ years not long enough?
showed the world America still "walks the talk"
a free Iraq
Oh wonderful reason for tens of thousands of Iraqis to die, because you think America has a self-confidence issue. :rolleyes:
military bases in the ME
Bush: "I want a base there."
Rumsfeld: "Well lets just lie about our reasons for doing so, invade and kill tens of thousands of Iraqis".
Bush: "Okey-dokey."
Lybia
Has been trying to get closer to the west for almost two decades now.
Israel annd Palestine
If any peace comes it will because Arrafat is dead and Abu Mazan and Sharon work out one, how the hell does the US invading Iraq have anything to do with that?
Syria and Lebanon
Massive pro-Syrian rally in Lebannon just a week or two ago.
Iran
This is true, Iran has unilaterally and fully stop researching nuclear weapons...oh wait no they haven't.
all reasons the invasion has worked, and will go down in history (not the short sighted hand wringing of today) as the best move America could have made at the time
And black is white as well eh?
and don't forget the 50cent a gallon gas - "no blood for oil" - yep, it was all about the oil
LOL [/B]
And white is black.
Yeah because the end purchaser is getting raped means that oil companies aren't making massive stupendous profits.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
You may be right eagler, but if the religous fanatics who won the election in iraq do come to power, arent we right back in the same boat? The m ajority rules in iraq is the same religous freaks that we are attempting to pick a fight with in iran? What the hell sense does this make?
In my paranoid fantasy land, I would have bet the farm that our main objective was to establish a permanat military presence in the middle east. In a 'best case scenario' right atop the worlds 2nd largest known oil field which exists in iraq.
In my wildest dilusions, i would have never thought we were actually dumb enough to spend nearly half a trillion dollars on a war to establish a TRUE fricken democracy in a land that hates western culture to the very core! Who do you think is going to win the gaddamm elections?!
Those religious fanatics didnt win a 2/3 majority, more like 49% or so. They will have to forge a coalition with either the Sunni's to the south, or more likely with the Kurds to the north. The Shiites have already stated they will not try to impose Islamic religious laws.
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NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL is treated as ho-hum, let china handle it news to bush and his people.
China is in a far better position than the US to deal with North Korea. China provides desparately needed aid to NK, this gives them leverage we just dont have.
Keep in mind, at the very same time we were gearing up for war in iraq, to go see if saddam had the can of mustard gas in the desert
We were looking for far more than just a can of mustard gas. Do some research on the 'net.
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Should they be? Iirc weren't the Intel services budgets cut during the 90's? If so, how do you blame the Intel guys when they most likely dont have the funds they need to get the job done?
I agree, most of the time people should be held accountable for mistakes of this magnitude. However, consider this. America's Intel services werent the only ones mistaken worldwide. Many were mistaken, including possibly the best Intel guys in the world, the Israelis.
Nash, if you were talking about that post last night, the questions were directed to Silat, with the 2nd paragraph containing *food for thought*. :) If you weren't, then I still have no idea what you were talking about. :)
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The media took one part of the reason for the overthrow of the Iraqi government and I'm going to stick to that one issue because it was the one issue that can't be proven even though most of the governments of the world agreed with it and I think it's the best way to argue my point without looking at what was going on because I cant fault any of the other reasons and i know im right because i just am and no one is going to tell me different because that was the reason and it was wrong and now theres a commision that says it was wrong and that proves im right and theres no reason for me to look at any of the other reasons because that was the one that the news kept telling me it was for and i think it was just...........bad
So true Lazerus. Funny how people remember only what they want to.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Silat,
You can google for all this stuff I am about to talk about if you wish, or you can search this BBS for threads where I have previously posted links.
???? And why do you think I dont know all the info you are referring to?
I posted a gov report. I have a problem when the head of the agency that is blamed for the mis information is given the highest award this country has for civilians.
I have a problem when no one is held accountable for the mistake.
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Originally posted by Silat
???? And why do you think I dont know all the info you are referring to?
I posted a gov report. I have a problem when the head of the agency that is blamed for the mis information is given the highest award this country has for civilians.
I have a problem when no one is held accountable for the mistake.
Accountability goes all the way back to budget cuts during the 90's that affected our intel services ability to do their jobs. Who do you want fired Silat? Or, who should we bring up on charges and what specific charges should they be brought up on?
The gov't report you linked to doesnt say anyone lied or intentionally misrepresented data. In fact, the report says:
The report implicitly absolves the Bush administration of manipulating the intelligence used to launch the 2003 Iraq war, putting the blame for bad intelligence directly on the intelligence community.
It goes on to say:
But the commission also said that it found no indication that spy agencies distorted the evidence they had concerning Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, a charge raised against the administration during last year's presidential campaign.
If the budget cuts hadnt been made dont you think the intel agencies information would have been more accurate?
I'm unsure as to why you think heads should roll on this issue. People did the best they could with the resources they were given. Descions were made based on information they had at the time.
Steps are being taken now to ensure this sort of thing doesnt happen again. I think thats all we can ask in this situation.
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Originally posted by Silat
???? And why do you think I dont know all the info you are referring to?
I posted a gov report. I have a problem when the head of the agency that is blamed for the mis information is given the highest award this country has for civilians.
I have a problem when no one is held accountable for the mistake.
All those responsible for doing their job's the best they could with what they had to work with will report to the front lawn of the White House at 0430hrs.
The executions will commence at dawn.
Happy? :D