Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nefarious on April 05, 2005, 01:26:46 AM
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The PPSH? Might have the Designation wrong here.
Favored by the Germans over the MP40 in World War 2, Today I was watching a Documentary on the 24th Infantry Division, It was highlighting there action in Korea.
In the old B Roll Footage, Some American Troops were carrying them while fighting in Korea.
Was this Common in Korea? Were US GI's issued Thompsons or Grease Guns in Korea? I guess what Im getting at is, which is better the Tommy Gun, the Grease Gun, or the PPSH?
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Well i fired both mp40 and tommy gun for a few hundred rounds each. I liked the Thompson more than the MP40, but only because it was hevier and thus easier to shoot on auto for an inexperienced shooter such as me. I dont think i'd like it as much if i had to carry it around a battlefield all day. Maybe that was why gis might have carrieed those ppsh?
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PPSH....somthn..
great gun in CalL of Duty
Its got a rotorry magazine that lays flat on top?
does it shoot 45's?
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http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/ppsh.html
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wasn't it a 75 round drum magazine of 9mm? great gun in medal of valor too :)
ack-ack
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my history teacher from poland fought in WWII, said it wasn't very good at long range, lost velocity very quickly.
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I bet, its a very small 7.62x25 round.
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Believe it was favoured by the Wermacht too, large mag, chrome barrel, easy to clean, easy to use.........Sov weapons are very, very good far better in many cases than the Guccified crap that the west uses.
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The best thing about the PPSh was it was produced in large numbers. Production rates were as much part of the war as the fighting. Looking at what the soviets produced, airplanes, tanks and infantry weapons, they had some very talented and ingenious engineers.
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Except they had to look at Suomi KP/31 before making their PPSh ;)
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html
"Despite the limited production capacity the numbers of the Suomi KP/-31 were increased to meet the demands of Finnish armed forces. There are some similarities between the KP/-31 and PPSh -41 such as magazine capacity, cyclic rate of fire and the wooden buttstock. The Finnish gun is, however, a first generation submachine gun while the PPSh is a typical second generation submachine gun: Mass-produced for a massive army, and thus possessing neither quickly detachable barrel nor some other luxuries such as versatility with very slight - if any - alteration of the receiver mechanism"
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Originally posted by GScholz
There is nothing "small" about that round. Same ammo the Tokarev used.
7.62 x 25 is a relatively anemic pistol cartridge. Even with the improvements in performance due to the longer SMG barrel, it is still anemic. Much less power than 9mm, or .30 carbine, or 9x18 Tokarev...
And certainly much less power than the American standard for evaluating pistol performance, the .45 ACP.
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Originally posted by rshubert
7.62 x 25 is a relatively anemic pistol cartridge. Even with the improvements in performance due to the longer SMG barrel, it is still anemic. Much less power than 9mm, or .30 carbine, or 9x18 Tokarev...
And certainly much less power than the American standard for evaluating pistol performance, the .45 ACP.
Why not to just use a 20mm pistol, if bigger is better in that way.
9mm is used in more submachineguns than any other caliber.
Of course 7.62 is alot used if you count in the russians and chinese with the massive amounts of different models of PPSh and couple of others.
7.62X25 Tokarev
Mass = 85 Velocity = 1187
Kinetic Pulse = 119.112 kp
Kinetic Energy = 265.881 ft-lb
Momentum = 0.448 slug f/s
Energy/Momentum = 593.500 E/M
9mm Luger
Mass = 115 Velocity = 1007
Kinetic Pulse = 133.121 kp
Kinetic Energy = 258.895 ft-lb
Momentum = 0.514 slug f/s
Energy/Momentum = 503.500 E/M
9mm Luger
Mass = 147 Velocity = 909
Kinetic Pulse = 159.989 kp
Kinetic Energy = 269.657 ft-lb
Momentum = 0.593 slug f/s
Energy/Momentum = 454.500 E/M
45 ACP
Mass = 230 Velocity = 816
Kinetic Pulse = 283.328 kp
Kinetic Energy = 339.997 ft-lb
Momentum = 0.833 slug f/s
Energy/Momentum = 408.000 E/M
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The PPSh is considered one of the best SMGs of WW2 by alot of people. One of the most infamous uses of it was with the "Tank Riders" in Stalingrad. A large group of infantry would be loaded up with PPSh's, jump onto T-34s, and throw themselves headfirst at fortified German positions. Very few survived to be veterans.
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shubie... I think you are mixing up the 9x18 makarov round with the more powerful tokerev one. the 7.62x 25 is more potent than eitber of the weak 9mm rounds.
I would still go for the .45 acp with the grease gun or tommy gun.. to bad they didn't have the 50 round drum for the military thompsons like the civilian ones.
I liked shooting the grease gun a lot. not as heavy as the thompson but seemed easier to control.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would still go for the .45 acp with the grease gun or tommy gun.. to bad they didn't have the 50 round drum for the military thompsons like the civilian ones.
Grease gun has rate of fire of ~350, tommy has ~650-750
Brits early on had Thompsons with the drums, but most were issued to the navy :D
Besides brits didn't like the drums as much as the stick magazines, because of the rattling and more cumbersome handling.
Thompson was already rather heavy for an SMG.
The grease gun was lighter, but had a poor rate of fire by the time it was introduced.
The germans who switched from MP40 to PPSh41, did so because of the higher rate of fire (~500-600 -> ~800-950) and more rounds if used with the drums.
However for the riflemen its not a big wonder if they opt for an SMG in CQB.
I would rather choose 9mm SMG.
Surprisingly it would be the Suomi KP/31, better than the PPSh41 :D
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Were they issuing Thompsons in Korea or any other SMG's? Were they hard to come by? I was kinda suprised to see GI's carrying them.
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They were issuing Thompsons all the way to the beginning of Vietnam.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Except they had to look at Suomi KP/31 before making their PPSh ;)
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html
Hmm. I didn't know that Suomi was desigled in 1931.
Russian analogue of Suomi was PPD-34 adn PPD-40 that had a drum-magazine inspired by Suomi.
Africa (some people here may remember him) bought a disabled PPSh-41, bolt deformed, barrel drilled and drum has no spring. I disassembled it and was really surprised of how simple it is. No more then 5 parts. Finish is very rough, you can easily tear your clothes with burrs. This thing was designed for production in any metal-bed factory. Barrel is chromed because of low quality of steel finish.
PPSh is only three letters in Cyrillic, ППШ, Pistolet-Pulemet Shpagina, Shpagin's Pistol-Machinegun.
Interesting fact is that in 1941-42 each PPSh came with 3 drums that could fit this gun only, they were not interchangable and couldn't be used with another PPSh. They solved this problem only in 1943.
Another thing is that it fires from open bolt, and the gun literally jumps in your hands when you pull the trigger, but in close combat it wasn't important.
Here you can sometimes see people guarding railway tunnels and bridges armed with PPSh or Mosin 1891/30 three-line rifles... Reliable weapons that don't need almost any maintenance.
Edit: PPSh is pronounced "pe-pe-sha", stress on last "a".
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Originally posted by Fishu
Grease gun has rate of fire of ~350, tommy has ~650-750
Brits early on had Thompsons with the drums, but most were issued to the navy :D
Besides brits didn't like the drums as much as the stick magazines, because of the rattling and more cumbersome handling.
Thompson was already rather heavy for an SMG.
The grease gun was lighter, but had a poor rate of fire by the time it was introduced.
The germans who switched from MP40 to PPSh41, did so because of the higher rate of fire (~500-600 -> ~800-950) and more rounds if used with the drums.
However for the riflemen its not a big wonder if they opt for an SMG in CQB.
I would rather choose 9mm SMG.
Surprisingly it would be the Suomi KP/31, better than the PPSh41 :D
Never heard that germans switched to PPSh from MP-40. At least in russian movies about WW2 it was conversely, russians often carried MP-40. MP-40 was lighter, more reliable, and low rate of fire is obvious advantage in combat. It was almost impossible to fit out drums in combat, therefore russians switched to stick magazins .
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Originally posted by Vad
Never heard that germans switched to PPSh from MP-40. At least in russian movies about WW2 it was conversely, russians often carried MP-40.
Germans had more targets than the russians ;)
I'm not saying that they did it during the combat though, but instead chosen to grab PPSh over the MP40 from the weapon storage.
I don't know the exact details how it happened though, just that there were occasions when PPSh was grabbed before MP40.
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I have a PPSH here with me now date stamped 1944. It looks like it just came out of the box and appears to have never been fired. I'm not too impressed with the thing; the Thompson is, without a doubt, much better as far as quality goes. My favorite sub though is the British Sterling; awesome weapon. The thing barely moves while firing full auto. It's very enjoyable to shoot.
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The sterling is a fantastic war fighting weapon as apposed to a body guard weapon. Accurate and reliable and increadably robust.
It was my personal weapon in the army for 4 years and I loved it dearly.
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Never heard that germans switched to PPSh from MP-40. At least in russian movies about WW2 it was conversely, russians often carried MP-40. MP-40 was lighter, more reliable, and low rate of fire is obvious advantage in combat. It was almost impossible to fit out drums in combat, therefore russians switched to stick magazins .
There's nothing I can say to this except WRONG.
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In Soviet movies Soviet soldiers use captured MP-40s because in the beginning of the War there were not enough SMGs in Red Army, and an automatic weapon could be more usefull then a 1891/30 rifle. And it's also a sign of military valour - having a captured enemy weapon ;)
Before 1941 main "future weapon" for Red Army was SVT-40. Funny, but it took less man-hours to manufacture an SVT then a Mosin bolt-action rifle, OTOH it was more expensive... Mosin needed more manual work, SVT needed more factory equipment and automated work.
You can see soldiers armed with SVT in any war-time Soviet film.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
They were issuing Thompsons all the way to the beginning of Vietnam.
Wasn't it the same Thompson that jammed during the assassination attempt at the life of Reinhard Heidrich ? Good SMG !
If not for that bomb, Hitler's favorite SS leader could be still alive ! :D
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Originally posted by Vad
Never heard that germans switched to PPSh from MP-40. At least in russian movies about WW2 it was conversely, russians often carried MP-40. MP-40 was lighter, more reliable, and low rate of fire is obvious advantage in combat. It was almost impossible to fit out drums in combat, therefore russians switched to stick magazins .
In 1941 the supply of PPSH was very scarse (except for Soviet border guard troops who had more PPSHs than the regular Army units). So, it's no wonder that the Red Army soldiers would prefer MP-40 to their own rifles. During 1941 the Soviet Front Commanders were competing for the supplies of PPSHs. This was a big problem decided by Stavka.
:cool:
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with ball ammo I would allways opt for the .45 over the weak 9mm. On the other end of the scale I would go with the czech scorpion in .32 for light weight, high rate of fire and close quarters work.
lazs
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The Papasha was a very good weapon. especially for fighting in forests. The germans used them often, even started manufacturing a modified version that could use their ammo if I remember right.
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You are correct.
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Originally posted by lazs2
with ball ammo I would allways opt for the .45 over the weak 9mm. On the other end of the scale I would go with the czech scorpion in .32 for light weight, high rate of fire and close quarters work.
lazs
But lazs, we all have to ask ourselves one question: What would Voss carry? ;)
Karaya
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When I was in service I managed to get my hands on one Suomi SMG. Tried it at 150m distance , prone. Results weren´t spectacular.... Single fire : managed to hit the target assembly area which was about 1 m2. But when closed into 50m distance I managed to pump over 50% of my shots into the target reticle while firing on autofire, at least 10 shot bursts. And that was the first time I ever had fired any weapon on autofire. If I had to fight in close quarters I know which weapon I would choose.. But when range is more than 75m and targets are wearing some ballistic armour then 9mm SMG is useless without some special ammo.
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Originally posted by lazs2
shubie... I think you are mixing up the 9x18 makarov round with the more powerful tokerev one. the 7.62x 25 is more potent than eitber of the weak 9mm rounds.
I would still go for the .45 acp with the grease gun or tommy gun.. to bad they didn't have the 50 round drum for the military thompsons like the civilian ones.
I liked shooting the grease gun a lot. not as heavy as the thompson but seemed easier to control.
lazs
It's that lower cyclic rate combined with the near straight-line tock. Another very controllable SMG in .45 is the Reising, which has a cyclic rate of about 500-550. I can put an entire one-burst 20 round mag on an IPSC target at 50 yards.