Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on April 05, 2005, 04:12:20 PM
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I would have to say, most over rated is the P-51.
A great plane no doubt, but it came pretty late in the war and though it had an impact, was it any greater then the other US planes? It gets so much attention it overshadows some far more interesting planes.
I am going to go with the P-40 as the most underated. A decent plane that helped hold the line for almost all the allies, and seems to get little respect for that.
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What about the Me-262?
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Over rated= P51
Under rated= Spit I
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Hardly counts in my book. Yeah it saw some limited action, but it was used as a fighter to late to make much of an impact.
It also does not get the same attention the mustang does.
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The Spit series almost made it to the over rated spot.
After the BoB how usefull was it really with such short range and limited load carrying?
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Over = P51. A great plane, for sure but it would have been useless without the bombers it was tasked to escort.
Under = C47. If a plane won the war, this was it. The allied war effort would have folded like wet cardboard without its supply lines.
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Are we basing this off of actual use in WWII or use in AH ?
If in AH I would have to agree that the P51, La7, and Spit series would be over rated. And the p-40 series would be under rated.
If in WWII I would have to stick with P51 as being most over rated, and the Spits as being under rated.
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WW2,
The spit gets most of the credit for winning the BoB when the Hurri was the real work horse so, I don't really consider it overrated hehe
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Overated: P51
Underated:Me-109 series
An old design that was able to be updated fairly well and defend Germany againt great odds, even competeing with 51s in combat and allied fighters. If you look, alot of Germanys top aces perferred the 109 to the 190 and were very succesful with it. I still love 190s alot though, 109s just hold a special place.:D
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Underrated.. P47 or F6F
Overrated - FW190
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Why do you think so MT?
I am not a big Hellcat fan, and the but it did a hell of a job with the fleet. Still by that time the Japanese navy was putting up some pretty bad pilots so even the F4F may have dominated.
I didnt think most people rated the P-47 very high, not a bad fighter, but not the best. It almost made the list, but I think the P-40 is more underated.
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Overrated: P51
Underrated: Bf109
I'm with Slurpee on this one. The 109 was upgraded countless number of times and an airframe originally designed for a 600 hp engine mounted by the end of the war a 2000+ hp engine! It was not a high speed design yet incredibly competitive in the air, the germans biggest problem was not the machines, it was the men supposed to operate them there were none left.
Perhaps the 190D is a bit underrated, it's hard to tell because there is no hard evidence on it's performance. It's conveniently 'lost' despite both US and SU had airworthy planes of the type post-war. Granted it entered service too late to play any big part in the war, it's performance may be somewhat underestimated, is my guess.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Why do you think so MT?
I didnt think most people rated the P-47 very high,
It is the most under-rated for that very reason. It performed the main air to ground work of the war in the ET and was loved by its pilots for its survivability and characteristics.
The F6F is usually overshadowed by its sexier cousin the Corsair. So it falls into the under-rated catagory as well.
The 190 had little affect on the war and seems to be placed in high regard all too often.
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Easy.
Over rated. Early 109
Underrated P39.
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Over rated = FW190
Under Rated = Me109
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.
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Fighters
Over-rated: P51
Under-rated P-40
Transports
Under-rated: Ju-52, C47, He-111
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Over-rated: Vought F4U-4 Corsair
Under-rated: Brewster F2A Bufflao
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Overrated - P-51 - Clearly the best but the hype is out of hand.
Underrated - F6F - People have a mistaken impression that it was less important than the F4U and some people can't even tell it apart from the F4F.
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Overrated : FW190
Underrated : I-16 type 6, variant with underwing
rocket launchers.
During the defence of Leningrad on February 23, 1943 (!) Soviet Navy ace SrLt Anatoly Lomakin from the 21st IAP of Krasnoznamionniy Baltiyskiy Flot shot down a FW190 using the rockets.
Lomakin became Hero of the Soviet Union on January 22,1944 but KIA while flying a newer type of aircraft on January 25 after he had scored that day his 24th victory.
Unrated : I- 153 with underwing rocket launchers
(6 RS-82 rockets)
The rockets launched from this plane downed some Luftwaffe aces in 1941 at the start of operation Barbarossa.
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P-51 over rated? From December 1943 until VE Day, it made 10000 kills. Ten Thousand.
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This thread sucks.
bye
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Originally posted by Nath_____
This thread sucks.
bye
/\
Runstang user..
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The F6F is usually overshadowed by its sexier cousin the Corsair. So it falls into the under-rated catagory as well.
I take the exact opposite opinion in that the F6F series was the one that overshadowed the Corsair. Simply because the Corsair wasn't the fleet aircraft of choice until a good deal of work had been done and the Brits and two US Navy squadrons showed us how to land it on a carrier.
The Hellcat pilots also had the highest ratio of kills to losses of any aircraft in the Pacific as well. Between 5,156 and 4,947 were claimed as kills by the pilots against 270 combat losses for a ratio of 19.1 or 18.3 depending on which number you use for kills.
The next was the Corsair with an 11.32 to 1 kill ratio based on 2,140 kills claimed against 189 combat losses.
While this is the best ratio kills versus losses in WW2 I don't think it was the best aircraft. I should since that is all I typically fly in AH but I honestly don't think its the best aircraft. In some ways I prefer the Hellcat but there is something about the way the Corsair wings bring me back each time.
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Mustang's actual tally of aerial kills was 4,950....slightly less than the Hellcat's.
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If you can list another fighter that had the range and performance of a p-51, then maybe you could say it was over rated........ but it is not over rated.
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Sure you can Nuke, it just depends on what values you are using to rate a planes worth.
Sure the mustang had great range, and speed, but those are not that only factors we have to use.
What plane do you consider over rated and or under rated?
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Shucking,
Is there a page that lists stats for kills etc by plane type? I googled but didnt find anything.
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I cant belive this wasnt mentioned:
Overrated: A6M Zero
Underrated: F4F
As for LW planes....
The 109 was never really underrated in ww2, maybe by uninformed types after the war but I understand they were almost always given a fair bit of respect in the actual conflict. That said i agree with Pongo, the early 109s werent so great and i personally think that Bf109E is possibly the worst collection of fighter design errors in history that still somehow managed to be very competitive. Bf109F and early Bf109G were world class fighters though.
MT saying that the 190 had an insignificant impact on the war is pretty silly considering over 20,000 were made in the last 4 years of the war which makes it nearly as prevalent as the massivly produced Bf109s of the same period. Not to mention that it was a much more effective bomber destroyer and considered a more dangerous adversary than 109 by many enemy pilots on both fronts but especially in the west.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
What plane do you consider over rated and or under rated?
I don't really think any plane is over rated or underated.
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Overrated: Ju-87 Stuka
Underrated: P-40 or Beaufighter
Tronsky
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Originally posted by NUKE
If you can list another fighter that had the range and performance of a p-51, then maybe you could say it was over rated........ but it is not over rated.
38 was better at both Nuke, IMO.
Overrated - P-51 - (Hellcat or Jug did twice the work of this plane, but yet the Mustang takes all of the credit)
Underrated - P-38L
Karaya
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G2, no specific page available...just looked up P-51 Mustang and searched the sites until I found one that listed its wartime kill record.
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Thanks Shuc!
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Originally posted by Slurpee
Overated: P51
Underated:Me-109 series
An old design that was able to be updated fairly well and defend Germany againt great odds, even competeing with 51s in combat and allied fighters. If you look, alot of Germanys top aces perferred the 109 to the 190 and were very succesful with it. I still love 190s alot though, 109s just hold a special place.:D
It's not that they preferred it, it's that by the time the FW's were available, they'd logged so many hours in their 109's and knew them so well, they didn't want to learn a new fighter. A fear that the unknown will get them killed, I guess ;) Most of the 109 aces I've read speak of the 109 vs. 190 debate readily admit that the 190 was the better fighter.
Originally posted by -tronski-
Overrated: Ju-87 Stuka
Underrated: P-40 or Beaufighter
Tronsky
Galland has a rather low opinion of the stuka when taken out of the ground support role. That man seems to speak with some authority on the LW (ie. "From First to Last"), so I'll take him by his word ;)
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Very true, i stillll think the 109 wasnt given as much credit as it deserved being put in the conditions it was at the time.
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P51 was only good for bombing tanks untill they put a spitfire engine in it.
just remember that.
overrated: P51
underated: everything else
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I just wonder what people are going by when they say a plane was either over or under rated. It's all relative.
Think about it. How can anyone say a plane was over rated or under rated? Its all opinion unless you want to site facts and statistics....and if you go by stats, there is no opinion involved.
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Originally posted by mechanic
P51 was only good for bombing tanks untill they put a spitfire engine in it.
just remember that.
overrated: P51
underated: everything else
That's not true. It had low alt performance, kinda like the LA7. It just couldn't get up high and fight until the Merlin was installed.
And remember this.... The Spit was only able to fight near Britain, had the same motor as the P-51, yet was slower and could not fly to Germany and back.
So the P-51 was able to do what no other plane could do.......escort the bombers to Berlin and back while outclassing the defenders.
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And remember this.... The Spit was only able to fight near Britain,
Just how close are Egypt, Australia and Burma to Britain? What about Tunisia, Italy, the Balkans, Soviet Union and Indonesia? Are they close too?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Just how close are Egypt, Australia and Burma to Britain? What about Tunisia, Italy, the Balkans, Soviet Union and Indonesia? Are they close too?
lol. you know what I meant. The spit was a defensive fighter.....very short range.
The P-51 had the same motor, yet was faster and had the range to fly from Britain to Berlin and back. The spit could not perform that role.
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Well, the fact that it was used in so many theatres shows something. It also shows that the long range escort of bombers operating out of Britain was just one tiny part of the air war.
And the Spitfire did not have such a short range. Not once they started equipping them with drop tanks and extra internal tankage.
Most of the Spitfire range figures are for high speed cruise, not maximum range cruise.
Here are Australian tests of a Spitfire VIII, fitted with a 90 gallon drop tank, carrying a total of 213 gallons of fuel:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/282_1090515978_spitviiirange.jpg)
(Whilst it says "ferry condition", it's with full armament and ammunition)
Use 20 gallons warming up and climbing, 30 gallons in combat, and at 283 mph cruise you've still got a radius of 500 miles, with 170 miles in reserve.
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Oh lord its become another 109 vs spit thread.... With charts....
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Sorry, but I had to respond to Nuke. :D
I won't continue it here though, it doesn't really belong in the O' Club.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Sorry, but I had to respond to Nuke. :D
I won't continue it here though, it doesn't really belong in the O' Club.
The P-51 did a job that the spit could never do.
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Originally posted by Reschke
I take the exact opposite opinion in that the F6F series was the one that overshadowed the Corsair.
Actually you are taking the same view as me. It is for all those reasons that the F6 is underrated. I'm assuming by "underrated" we mean "got less press" or is generally considered less valuable by the unknowledgable peons who don't know planes like us dweebs do.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm assuming by "underrated" we mean "got less press" or is generally considered less valuable by the unknowledgable peons who don't know planes like us dweebs do.
MT, this is exactly how I have treated this.
Karaya
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Over rated = 109.
Under rated = C47.
I hadn't thought about it before, but the C47 doesn't get the credit it really deserved.
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MT hit the nail on the heads.
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Underated swordfish Torpedo bomber, Stringbag
Overated P47 big ugly heavy only of use as there were so many of em.
But not an easy question to answer realy
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Here are 10 Under Rated i have quickly thought up, probably some glaring omissions -
1) Hawker Hurricane: Hawker Hurricanes flew in every theatre of WWII and flew operational sorties on every single day of wartime up until VJ day - most seem to think its career was over after the BoB, but it served fantastically in Malta, then protecting convoy's and off of carriers and finally as a ground attack aircraft, especially in North Africa and then Burma right up to the end.
2) De Havilland Mosquito: As a low level attack aircraft, pathfinder, night fighter and photo recon aircraft it excelled, pretty much the eyes of the allied air force along with the PR Spitfires.
3) Hawker Typhoon: Often overshadowed in American aimed books and film by the P-47, the Typhoon cab ranks decimated the Wehrmacht and was an awesome fighter at low level.
4) C-47: No need to explain.
5) B-24: Often overshadowed by the B-17.
6) F6F: more IJAF/IJN kills than any other aircraft?
7) Hawker Tempest: Especially under appreciated by the British public, the Tempest shot down an incredible amount of V-1's before they could kill civilians, which is often overlooked.
8) Fairey Swordfish: As already mentioned, succeeded in outlasting nearly all of its planned replacements. Showed that capital ships (much to the japanese's interest) could be attacked in port, 20 or so single handedly kept the Italian fleet out of the mediterranean after the attack at Taranto.
9) Wellington/Warwick: Decent Bomber and fantastic service in the Battle of the Atlantic.
10) All US Medium Bombers: Always overshadowed by the heavies.
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Mustang's actual tally of aerial kills was 4,950....slightly less than the Hellcat's.
The P-51 destroyed the same amount of aircraft on the ground as in the air.
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Oh and BTW... Impossible to overrate the pony.
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In the West I would say that the Soviet fighters were always underrated.
I know that our exposure to the La-7 in game has probably changed a lot of opinions about that fighter, but beyond the game it has always seemed rather under rated, and under reported.
-Sik
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Over-rated: Spitfire
Under-rated: Miles M-20
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Funny, but hardly any bombers made it to this thread...
Most of my overrated selections are gone, but for Underrated: B24 in Europe and A20 in the Pacific.
- SEAGOON
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Wellington and Halifax. Extremely underrated considering their service record.
Overrated would be the B-29. It's job could have been done by airframes of half the cost just as effectively.
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Over rated>>>P51
Under rated>>>190D
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Well, I dont know about the most over-rated plane, but my vote for most under-rated is the Mosquito. I mean, come on...its a plane made of WOOD that performed extremely daring low level raids during WWII...
I remember watching a special on it on the Discovery channel and it was even used to break out prisioners from a POW camp...
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Over = p51
Under = P47
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Underrated = P-39(I'd like to say the Brewster Buffalo, but it only fared well in the B-239 export variant which is well known for it's success.)
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Originally posted by Furball
Under-rated?????!!!
Every pilot likes his plane, and sometimes overrates it. But all soviet pilots - bombers, fighters, all of them - agreed with the simple statement: "IL-2 won the war!". At least on the Eastern front.
It is impossible to overrate Il-2.
On the Eastern front I would say that the most overrated plane was Yak-3, the most underrated - P39.
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Too tough to answer without qualifying things.
For the job the 51 did, there was nothing better. Sure the 38L could do much the same, but you aren't including maint, production, etc.
I love 38s but the 51 made more sense for other reasons besides performace. It was easier to get guys up to speed in 51s. And don't just think ETO with the 51. Remember those guys from Iwo escorting the B29s on the VLR missions to Japan. Toughest mission of the war for a fighter pilot in many ways in my opinion.
Hard to overrate the 109s and Spits, considering what they were originally designed for and the way they were adapted throughout the war to fit different needs.
Hard to overrate the 190 considering the impact it had on the development of Allied aircraft after it's surprise appearance.
Seems like a lot of the Soviet aircraft were underrated.
Also seems like the B24 gets missed a lot despite it having done far more work then the 17. Because it wasn't the star in the 'glamour' war with the 8th out of England, it kind of gets written off, but it filled a lot of roles all over the world for any number of air forces.
Dan/CorkyJr
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underated planes
A-20s
P-38s (in real life, but now overated in game)
Soviet planes (anyone heard of Yak-9? Shturmovik Il-2? Polikarpov?)
overated planes
P-51 "MUSTANG"
*P-51 is an icon of US WWII, as Ford Mustang in the 60s US :)
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Blimery is this another resurection special thread!
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I am not sure what was the most overrated plane. On the West possibly it was P-51, in Russia Yak-3.
But I am confident that the most underrated fighter was P-39. What is the tragic fate! It isn't known on the West, and it is forgotten on the East.
At the beginning of the war Soviet Union could set against Bf-109 only I-16 and I-153 which didn't match. Yes, russian pilots did their best but Messers won on the verticals, had speed to disengage when they wanted, and I-16s could do nothing with that. And P-39 became the first fighter which matched German fighters. Literally, it was P-39 who won the air superiority on the Eastern front in 42-43. La-5FN, Yak-3, La-7 saw the war when actually it was over, in late 43 - 44.
But because of ideological reasons it was impossible to admit that P-39 was one of the best fighter on the Eastern front. You know, cold war, american imperialism, etc. For example, when I was at school I knew the name of the triple Hero of the Soviet Union Pokryshkin, but I had no idea that he flew on the American fighter. I thought it was Yak-3.
Pokryshkin - among his 59 victories 48 were on P-39;
For others it is the total number of victories but most of them were on P-39
Gulyaev - 57
Rechkalov - 56
Golubev - 53
Glinka - 50
etc.
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Over-rated-P38. meat on the table for single engine Luftwaffe planes yet everybody raves how great it was simply cause it had 2 engines.
Under-rated-Beaufighter. Nigh and Day fighter, bomber, torpedo bomber, it wasn't as fast as the Mosquito but it would go slow and mix it up and still do well.