Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MiloMorai on April 07, 2005, 10:51:15 AM
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This was posted on another board
"During the last big trial of Mr. Irving one of the witness expert testimonies (for the defense - who was Deborah Lipstadt) was provided by Richard Evans, a British historian, who was asked, among other topics, to research on Irvings historiographic methods dealing with Dresden. It's a fairly long reading but non-the-less very interesting.
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/evans005.asp
Worth the read. Irving's method is very simular to a poster here.
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Will you two ever stop your personal feuds?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Will you two ever stop your personal feuds?
Never. Proving to each other that the Spit is really better thna the 109 (or vice versa) is the most imprtat thing to these guys.
Apparently...
Anyway GS, whats up man? How's Norge?
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Here's a link to a long thread originating at the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/index.php) in the Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6) Section.
The thread is entitled:
The End Of David Irving (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=73724)
Here's a link to two threads about Dresden. FYI they are long as well.
The first is again from AHF:
Was Dresden bombing "Terrorism"?" (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=70783)
and from the Feldgrau Forums (http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/index.php)
Bombing of Dresden--no trial for Butcher Harris? (http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9339&highlight=)
But this thread isn't about anything other then Milo stalking a certain poster around the net from forum to forum.
It's not like this forum is the only one where the original poster of this thread seeks out 'his buddy'. This is the only one that allowed the nonsense to progress as far as it has here.
But he will just come back under a different shade should any moderation be enacted.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Never. Proving to each other that the Spit is really better than the 109 (or vice versa) is the most imprtat thing to these guys.
BS. I never claimed the Spit was better than the 109. The only one who claimed one was better than other is your fellow Luftluver. So one is a Spit lover if one defends the crap that is posted by this well known anti-British hater.:rolleyes:
Stalking Wotan? My, my you do have a vivid imagination. Now be a good little luft lover and stay out of the thread if you can't comment on what the links says. You do seem to be stalking me.:eek:
Considering the comments he has made here regarding Dresden, it was a fair comment about your very good bud as one sees a parallel between him and Irving.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
this well known anti-British hater.:rolleyes:
Is that a person that hates anyone who is anti-British? You guys are on the same side and did not even know it :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Never. Proving to each other that the Spit is really better thna the 109 (or vice versa) is the most imprtat thing to these guys.
Apparently...
Anyway GS, whats up man? How's Norge?
Snow has melted so Norge looks like crap right now. After spring cleaning and after things start to grow again it will be all good again.
How are things at your end? If I'm not mistaken you don't have much seasonal shifts in climate in Cali?
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f* dresden.
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You did.
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good.
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f* london.
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Originally posted by GScholz
f* london.
you are free to your opinion, i accept that.
as far as i am concerned, the nazi's (nothing against the non nazi's) deserved everything they got - should accept the consequences of what they started.
why is there no whining that the americans firebombing of tokyo that killed 100k civilians is a war crime?
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London Calling, and it's still there.
I remember a conversation I had with a former LW wingco. I saw an Irving book in his shelf. I asked about it, he grinned, and said, "if you Read Irving, you have to read it from a good distance"
Anyway, the first bombing that caused such a firestorm was Hamburg. The British did not know it, but after the war the information came from the surviving German High command, that if the raid had been repeated like 2 times in some short time with similar effect, Germany would have had no option but to resign.
Well, the Brits did not quite know this, and they had some big political fights about issues like this.
FYI, London was getting very close to a civilian revolt during the autumn of 1940.
What saddens me though is to see that on the "anniversary" of that day in Dresden, there were 3000 neo-Nazis marching the streets.
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yes angus. sucks that neo nazis spoiled that.
i have nothing against mourning the raid, but expecting an apology from the british is an insult, they can piss right off.
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Hey Furbie ;)
Bear in mind that Dresden is also bombed after the absolute discovery af the Nazi camps. There was heat and fury in the air, and not much mercy if the war's end could be sped up.
Didn't work though, and neither did Tokyo, although Hiroshima seemed to be ugly enough to work.
BTW, my wife's grandparents moved out of Dresden right before the bombing. Germany was on it's knees, and her grandpa felt it was somewhat strange that Dresden hadn't been hit badly yet. He figured it would be happening soon, and they moved.
(Lucky him....and me ;))
On my living room wall there is a painting of Dresden as it looked before the bombing.
All sad, and shreck THE NAZIS!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Snow has melted so Norge looks like crap right now. After spring cleaning and after things start to grow again it will be all good again.
How are things at your end? If I'm not mistaken you don't have much seasonal shifts in climate in Cali?
It's raining today, but the air is very clear and the sky is amazing when the sun sets after the rain stops. Plus the daylight hours are getting longer, which is also great...
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Yeah tell me about it ... here winter is like one very long night.
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Hehe, tell that to an Icelander as well.
There are some fjords here where the sun cannot be spotted for a really long time.
It's warm now, the ground is thawing, and I'll be in for deeper and deeper dirt, untill the Ice in the grouns finally starts breaking up and letting the thawing water through.
Grun, where do you live anyway?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Will you two ever stop your personal feuds?
There`s no two of us.
There`s just one guy that provokes the same on all boards, and slowly getting banned from all of them for it. If you haven`t noticed I barely answer for this idiocy. It`s a matter of time, until people get bored with his behaviour, and tell the mods en masse they are fed up with it. Any problem is best cured at it`s root.
PS : It`s f. rains here, too. It`s april Golly-geeit, I want my sunshine. :cool:
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Two?
Is that you and Kurfurst?
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This board would be so much more peaceful without Milo Morai and Angus.
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Here comes the wrong side cheerleader.
The bad guys lost, the good guys won.
Thank God.
Unlike kurfurst wet dreams.
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Oh, come on Kuffy/Izzy/Barbi.
Peaceful? Just the two?
Peaceful without everybody that doesn't agree with you I am afraid, and that's quite many.
Anyway, what kind of peace is peace where nobody has the right to disagree.
Actually, I rather enjoy many debates here.....:D
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There`s nothing wrong about disagreement. Disagreement encourages the exchange of ideas, from which all sides can learn.
The problem is, there are some people who can`t handle disagreement. People who create disagreement on purpose, just that they can pursue their habit of feuding someone, or who think the right way of a debate is to operate with things like 'wet dreams', 'bad guys vs. good guys', or have the habit of calling the NAZI card on their opponents at practical opportunity, deserved or not.
People like you Angus, and Milo. Yes, I think this board would be a MUCH better place without you. You have a record for turning every thread into flaming instead of just - discussing. You outright HATE any peaceful and constructive discussion. You call this 'enjoying the debates'. We on the other hand, are fed up with it.
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Well, you are titled to have your opinion.
I also earn unpopularity when I see some peoples bluffs.
Anyway, is there a debate in this thread?
And since you are writing here, obviously you are responding to Milo.
And who is "WE" by the way? You and your other handle?
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Time to post this, again.
Looks like PRRF1 of the jagdmoroner board was right.
"I am editing this thread in the interests of Kurfurst's Health. We don't want you to get a heart attack, kurfurst.
Everybody except you has been discussing this in quite a reasonable and rational way[/b], and I see no reason for you to go off like a suicide bomb."[/i]
Some recent quotes by Barbarossa Isegrim:
"those salamanders at PW"
"you say bigger the better, and fixated on dicks"
"suggest you to get outside help for your paranoid symptoms"
"I don`t get why this chestpounding is important for some to bother with registering, only to post the same flame content"
and the reply
"Kurfurst, the only chest pounding around here is coming from you. For life of me, I simply cannot see why the discussion of 60+ year old airplanes brings out the worst in you. You really ought to reexamine the way you act."
" ROFL! He adds some extra weight into his panties."
Others by PRRF1
" Kurfurst, calm down or I will lock this thread."
" Kurfurst, if you are indeed Mr Barbarossa Isegrim, then your fame and reputation precede you."
by another Mod
"Kurfürst, Stop flaming people, you have no base for that and it seems you can not "argue" in a civil tone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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This board would be so much more peaceful without Milo Morai.
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Hehe, Izzy became Kuffy.
These boards would be morbid without you, - no proper fights, - although I must say that some are quite unnecessary, and end up going around and around.
But the bluffs, and the orange vs apple are an infinate source of joy :D
Anyway, Dresden was a sad thing, and it's a pity that the event is fuelling Neo-Nazism.
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Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, tell that to an Icelander as well.
There are some fjords here where the sun cannot be spotted for a really long time.
It's warm now, the ground is thawing, and I'll be in for deeper and deeper dirt, untill the Ice in the grouns finally starts breaking up and letting the thawing water through.
Grun, where do you live anyway?
Sunny California. :)
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Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, Dresden was a sad thing, and it's a pity that the event is fuelling Neo-Nazism.
Something I can fully agree on with you. ;)
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The whole war was a sad thing dresden is a little drop on the chart unfortunaly.
The only thing i always think off is little children who didn't have a clue they died in all colours and races, its always sad.
But is was germany who set the tone (Warchau, Rotterdam, Sarajevo )
Not to mention the luftwaffe strafing refugees along the roads in the early years of the war.
Offcourse the luftwaffe wasn't nazi but they served it.
I have nothing with it.
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A wise man once said, "Don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin'.".
If the Germans didn't want Dresdan nuked, I guess they shouldn't have gone and started that war that cost millions of lives. **** em.
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Like I said, Dresden was a sad thing. WW2 was basically a disaster anyway, and if there is any remedy to make a point out of what happened, it is OUR duty to figure it out and prevent something like this from happening again.
And, the first thing I see in the morning when I walk to the front door is a painting of Dresden as it was, before the war. It was painted after the war though.
I can probably get it photograped/scanned if you're interested.
Now, from Bug:
"The only thing i always think off is little children who didn't have a clue they died in all colours and races, its always sad. "
Exactly!
And from Izzy:
"quote:
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Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, Dresden was a sad thing, and it's a pity that the event is fuelling Neo-Nazism.
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Something I can fully agree on with you. "
Hehe, accept my hand about that, absolutely :)
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Dresden would have been so much worse if
(http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/images/vonnegut.jpg)
had been hurt
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What I find more disturbing about the Dresden debacle,is that around 70 P 51 s straffed women and children, and allied pow's released to clean up the mess afterwards in low level attacks after the bombers had left.They even straffed the local zoo!
This was the type of behaviour we so despised the Germans for during the fall of France.Attacking refugees.
I don't blame a single bomber crew for Dresden,it was just another target.I have more difficulty with the straffing p 51s,they could see their targets!
I don't like the way neo fascist's have latched on to Dresden to defend their disgusting ideology,but I believe Dresden was a big mistake by the allies and Proved that strategic bombing alone could not end wars.Hitler at this stage of the war felt betrayed by the German people, and seemed to want them to suffer,so the war dragged on despite Dresden, Hamburg and the rest.
In the end,if it was a choice between Dresden & Belsen.Then I choose Dresden.
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Originally posted by scott123
What I find more disturbing about the Dresden debacle,is that around 70 P 51 s straffed women and children, and allied pow's released to clean up the mess afterwards in low level attacks after the bombers had left.They even straffed the local zoo!
This was the type of behaviour we so despised the Germans for during the fall of France.Attacking refugees.
I don't blame a single bomber crew for Dresden,it was just another target.I have more difficulty with the straffing p 51s,they could see their targets!
I don't like the way neo fascist's have latched on to Dresden to defend their disgusting ideology,but I believe Dresden was a big mistake by the allies and Proved that strategic bombing alone could not end wars.Hitler at this stage of the war felt betrayed by the German people, and seemed to want them to suffer,so the war dragged on despite Dresden, Hamburg and the rest.
In the end,if it was a choice between Dresden & Belsen.Then I choose Dresden.
Read the article in the link. You might change your mind on the straffing.
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Hehe, nice pic of Kurt Vonnegut.
Now, Dresden again.
Dunno about the strafing, - first time I heard of it. Anyway, as I said, there was not much mercy in the air those days.
My wife's stepfather's dad died around that time. They got strafed my P51's at the funeral. Another part of Germany though.
Sort of makes you think. Like there was nothing unusable to bend and end Germany at the time. And the camps being recently discovered fuelled it all up.
Was just reading a biography of an inmate of Sachsenhausen. When the inmates saw Berlin burn, they were cheering.
All very sad and ugly.
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I always wonder at the use of the term "strategic" bombing.
Dresden was of course a part of a strategm................
Harris said clearly that part of the goal was to break the will of the German people to fight on............. Churchill was quite clear also.
Whermakt and the LW took part in many campaigns where a major plank of success was to attrit enemy military and civilian morale. (Londons Blitz is an example)
If mass sufferring of the enemies populace is a tool to break morale then it is also a tool to invoke fear and by that fear becomes a form of terror.
Since the kidnapping of a passenger plane in the 60's thru to 9/11 terror / terrorism / terrorists are defined diferently. It is a actually a form of publicity to raise the banner of some cause or another the act its self "wins" nothing........... its just a form of escalation.
Funerals have been straffed, weddings bombed, villages massacred in many theatres of war and will continue to be so..........in the main these are errors......(I did not say mistakes)..........often componded by cover up or excuse rather than simply admitting fault.
If ever (cod forbid) large nations with strong civilian infrastructures come to war again on this earth then those infrastructures must be attacked and if morale is part of your enemies sustaining force....................
now move this to O club
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I hope the Straffing is a myth,I first heard about it from a Historian on the history channel and he was defending the Dresden raid,and putting this forward as a more despicable act that history has forgotten.
All the information I have read on Dresden mentions it,as fact.
At this point in the war it was normal for Fighter escorts,after leaving their Bomber charges to go free ranging over the German countryside,looking for targets of opportunity,since the LW were seldom seen.
I hope History is wrong about the mustangs.:(
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Just stumbled across a big operation description, - happened in about the same time as Dresden.
Some 2000 allied fighters were roaming all over the place, strafing everything that moved basically.
It was about paralyzing German transport.
Will try to see if it fits, - operation name etc.
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Originally posted by scott123
I hope the Straffing is a myth,I first heard about it from a Historian on the history channel and he was defending the Dresden raid,and putting this forward as a more despicable act that history has forgotten.
I hope History is wrong about the mustangs.:(
Most likely not, wheter there was strafing in Dresden in particular... but I heard that there was strafing order given out the escort fighters late in the war, to strafe refugees, civillians.
It was to spread panic. No lesser man said that than Chuck Yeager himself, if I recall correctly, when they were given this order, he said something like this to his mate, 'We`d better win this war, or they will hang us for this with a good reason.' Most of them seen this as something sick... Maybe some Yeager book has more on that.
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Originally posted by scott123
I hope the Straffing is a myth,I first heard about it from a Historian on the history channel and he was defending the Dresden raid,and putting this forward as a more despicable act that history has forgotten.
All the information I have read on Dresden mentions it,as fact.
At this point in the war it was normal for Fighter escorts,after leaving their Bomber charges to go free ranging over the German countryside,looking for targets of opportunity,since the LW were seldom seen.
I hope History is wrong about the mustangs.:(
Perhaps this old post by Puck will answer your question:
Originally posted by Puck
I try never to use rockets on the church in hopes HTC has modeled the congregation running out in the street after the first pass. I think you get extra perks for gunning down the pastor.
On a less tongue in cheek topic, one of my good friend's (good friends are EXPENSIVE now days) mother in law was IN germany during the war. Towards the end she was riding her bicycle on the roads around her farm and get straffed by allied aircraft (apparently this happened more than once). I discovered this one fourth of july while firing off tracers from my XM177E2; she went into a panic attack. Talk about feeling HORRIBLE! Won't EVER forget the look on her face.
Then you have to wonder what's so dangerous about a 14 year old girl on a bicycle that she deserved a straffing run. I suppose she COULD be carring top secret communications from Hitler to Eichmann, but out in the middle of NOWHERE?
Dunno. Pretty easy to judge people from 3,000 miles and 57 years away. Hope they got what they were after.
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No mercy.
Just like the French roads in 1940.
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Yup.
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Originally posted by Angus
No mercy.
Just like the French roads in 1940.
Except that there were no orders issued in 1940 from the LW to strafe civillians on the road... if they had stafed civillians, that happened because the pilot couldn`t tell apart the deploying french army coloumn from a refugee column (and they often mixed up on the road). That`s quite different from explicitely ordering the pilots to shoot civis. And a poor excuse.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Except that there were no orders issued in 1940 from the LW to strafe civillians on the road... if they had stafed civillians, that happened because the pilot couldn`t tell apart the deploying french army coloumn from a refugee column (and they often mixed up on the road).
I would be interested in learning your source for this.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Angus
Just stumbled across a big operation description, - happened in about the same time as Dresden.
Some 2000 allied fighters were roaming all over the place, strafing everything that moved basically.
It was about paralyzing German transport.
Will try to see if it fits, - operation name etc.
Operation CLARION, 22nd Feb 1945 - commented on in Armageddon by Max Hastings - awesome book about the last days fo the Reich.
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TY Schaden, was looking for it.
Anyway, for Kurfurst, - the debate went this way:
"
quote:
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Except that there were no orders issued in 1940 from the LW to strafe civillians on the road... if they had stafed civillians, that happened because the pilot couldn`t tell apart the deploying french army coloumn from a refugee column (and they often mixed up on the road).
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I would be interested in learning your source for this.
- oldman
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Well, if you say there were no orders, it doesn't matter anyway, - you'd then be saying either that the LW pilots were particularly cruel, or that this never happened.
Either way, many a cruel thing happened without the orders for it being discovered just for this forum right now.
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The luftwaffe didn´t need the orders,
:rolleyes:
Im glad the majority doesn´t have the kurfurst view on the war.
:aok
We would be real eurotards
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Actually Bug, during the invasion in the west the Germans were quite strict about unnecessary killings of civilians and other crimes. Even rape was a death penalty offence in the Wehrmacht.
Remember they were trying to assimilate these populations, not destroy them … unlike Russia.
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Never heard that Scholzie.
Anyway, they quickly earned fame for executions, imprisonments and....camps.
Dresden is bombed some fortnight after the Russians marched into Birkenau (Auschwitz). So, the air was, to say the least, very hot.
Also bear in mind that it was well known what the LW had been up to in Poland for instance. Just a smaller scale.
The Devil really must have had a good time during WW2, - death and pain on every front and every side in every year of it. :(
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Angus seems to be the no1. Dresden-apologist on this board.
He does everything to relativize the scale of the crime.
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Tokyo was bigger. But it didn't work.
London was a bigger target, but the LW capacity was not enough.
Hamburg was almost about as bad.
Hiroshima, Nagasaki were big. It worked.
Dresden was a deep penetration raid with a rather blurry point. It caused nothing but pain. The idea may have been that the Germans would surrender, but with the Nazi's iron grip, that was not to happen. Stupid.
So, be it scale or comparison, the thing happened, and as I have said before on this thread, I think it was all very sad.
And at least I am not a Nazi apologist.
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Good thing you are not a nazi apologist, too, Angus. It`s enough already if you try to relativize Allied war crimes by making up crimes on the other side, even if there`re are many actual crimes to pick from. :eek:
Looks like you only want to generate hatred against certain nations. 'They deserved it' and cr@p like that. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Angus
Never heard that Scholzie.
Actually during the invasion of France there was even a rumour circulating in the Wehrmacht that two soldiers were shot just for making gestures to a French farm girl. Whether it was true or not nobody knows.
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A lot happens in war, that's what I'm saying, and the closure of WW2 was particularly nasty.
Now this from Barbi:
"It`s enough already if you try to relativize Allied war crimes by making up crimes on the other side, even if there`re are many actual crimes to pick from.
Looks like you only want to generate hatred against certain nations. 'They deserved it' and cr@p like that. "
Now, MAKING UP WHAT? Please make yourself more clear. Auschwitz perhaps?
GENERATING HATRED AGAINST CERTAIN NATIONS, I challenge you to be more specific, and bear in mind that half my family is German and lived in Dresden for a while.
For getting this straight, I do not put a "=" between Germans and the Nazi's. And yes, Nazi's of the WW2 IMHO deserved a lot of spanking.
What must be understood is that there was massive hatred in the air at the time, the Nazi's dirty deals had been surfacing, everybody was sick of the war, there was very little patience, very little mercy, and although somewhat debated, almost no remedy not considered to end the madness in a Bang.
Dresden failed, so hindsight tells us it was nothing but a massacre. Same would have been the case with Hiroshima had the Japanese not surrendered.
Easy to be wise afterwards and say, from the armchair "now this was a warcrime, this not, but also this and this etc etc"
So, conclusion, IMHO Dresden was a disaster, but due to the cirkumstances I can understand the motivation.
OKAY ?
Anyway, for Scholzie:
"Actually during the invasion of France there was even a rumour circulating in the Wehrmacht that two soldiers were shot just for making gestures to a French farm girl. Whether it was true or not nobody knows."
I have no doubt that this could be correct.
Ugly things also occured, for you had the SS swarming around. Did you know that there were mass executions of British POW's in the time of the Dunkirk affair.
And even the great German general Student got shot in the head by SS men at the time.
WW2 was a bloody mess.