Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on April 13, 2005, 02:38:44 PM
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Karzai Wants Permanent U.S. Bases in Afghanistan
(AP)
KABUL, Afghanistan -- President Hamid Karzai said Wednesday he is preparing a formal request to President Bush for a long-term security partnership that could include a permanent U.S. military presence.
At a joint news conference with U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Karzai said he had consulted many of his country's citizens in recent weeks about "a strategic security relationship," with the United States that could help Afghanistan avoid foreign interference and military conflicts.
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"The conclusion we have drawn is that the Afghan people want a long-term relationship with the United States," Karzai said. "They want this relationship to be a sustained economic and political relationship and most importantly of all, a strategic security relationship to enable Afghanistan to defend itself, to continue to prosper, to stop the possibility of interferences in Afghanistan."
Karzai said he has previously discussed this with Bush, but is now planning to formalize the request, but did not say when.
Rumsfeld was asked about America's willingness to offer security guarantees to Afghanistan and to establish permanent military bases here. He said this was a matter for President Bush to decide.
He described the military-to-military relationship between Afghanistan and the United States as good, and said it had grown and strengthened, but he was noncommittal on whether Washington hoped to establish permanent military bases.
"What we generally do when we work with another country is what we have been doing. We find ways we can be helpful, maybe training, equipment or other types of assistance. We think in terms of what we are doing rather than the question of military bases and that type thing," Rumsfeld said.
Rumsfeld was on an unannounced, whistlestop visit to the war-torn country before flying on to Pakistan later Wednesday for meetings with President Gen. Pervez Musharraf and other leaders.
Earlier, Rumsfeld met with U.S. troops in the southeastern cities of Kandahar and Qalat, following Tuesday's visit to Iraq.
In Qalat, where U.S. troops are running what they call a provincial reconstruction team that provides civic aid as well as security for reconstruction projects, Rumsfeld visited U.S. soldiers on a morale boosting mission mixed with official talks on the future U.S. role in Afghanistan.
U.S. commanders told Rumsfeld in detailed briefing on their operations in Zabul Province along the Pakistan border that Taliban fighters still have some sanctuaries and support among the local population, but that U.S. forces operating with newly trained Afghan troops are making steady progress in eroding that support.
Qalat is in a region about 90 miles north of Kandahar and 30 miles from the Pakistan border where the Afghan government is struggling with a counternarcotics campaign while also fighting remnants of the Taliban militia that ruled the country before U.S. forces invaded in October 2001.
Rumsfeld's visit to Qalat underscored the importance the Pentagon places on the approach of using troops to facilitate reconstruction and civil affairs work.
He shook hands and posed for photographs with a group of soldiers in Qalat and thanked them for their work before flying back to Kandahar where he spoke to several hundred soldiers and answered questions from several of them.
One soldier asked when the Army would shorten tours from 12 to six months for those serving in Afghanistan or Iraq. As he also had said a day earlier in Iraq, Rumsfeld said the Army was thinking about that, but had not made a decision.
Rumsfeld, whose itinerary was not being disclosed in advance by U.S. officials for security reasons, told the soldiers that both Afghans and Americans one day will look back on this period as a turning point in the spread of freedom. "You're earning your place in history," he said.
© 2005 The Associated Press
(Well at least someone in the world still loves the US)
- Seagoon
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I wonder how many bases we'll have to close (http://www.defenselink.mil/brac/) here in the U.S. to support it.
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lol That doesn't stink of BS at all..
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Sandman,
Most people don't realize it but the real push behind base closure is the military itself.
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Why take the time to defend yourself against warlords, when you can get the ones who put you in power to do it instead..
Tronsky
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(http://www.augustbach.com/51.jpg)
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Tronski,
Karzai was elected in a landslide by the people of Afghanistan.
I'm not sure what you would prefer:
1) The Taliban still be in power and still providing a haven for Bin Laden
2) Afghanistan be returned to the state of unending civil war between multiple warring ethnic factions (Pushtun, Tajik, etc.) with Kabul being variously starved or shelled ad infinitum?
What would you propose?
- SEAGOON
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i'm 100% against it, but we have been "defending" germany for 60 years.
BTW,what is our "exit stratigy" for germany?
i'm for closing ALL overseas bases and bringing ALL troops home.
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beyond the normal accusations against the taliban, thier willfull sheltering of the al queda, thier treatment of broads and thier rampant opium trade...the destruction of the ancient buddhist shrines pretty much put them on my chitlist.
i dont mind our involvement there for one second.
its like a stick in bin laden's beady little eye.
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The "war on terror" huh?
Yes It was right to into Afghanistan. That was where Mr Al Quaida lived. Not in Iraq at least not until the US and British millitary waded in there.
No complaints there but you yankees. sheesh. You'll end up with an empire if you're not carefull!;)
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Originally posted by JB88
beyond the normal accusations against the taliban, thier willfull sheltering of the al queda, thier treatment of broads and thier rampant opium trade...the destruction of the ancient buddhist shrines pretty much put them on my chitlist.
i dont mind our involvement there for one second.
its like a stick in bin laden's beady little eye.
JB,
Two excellent materials that should push the Taliban to the top of anyone's list are Ahmed Rashid's book"Taliban" which chronicles the rise of the Taliban to power and their subsequent actions and the film "Osama" which focuses on the desperate plight of women under Taliban rule (the film is excellent despite being one of the most depressing movies ever made).
- SEAGOON
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The muslims are absolutely gonna love this. There will be no end to the conspiracy theories about how Karzai is a 'US lackey'.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Tronski,
Karzai was elected in a landslide by the people of Afghanistan.
I'm not sure of the real translation of landslide but I think it's a bit too much he got about 60% of the votes.
I know as an American you trust representatives (and I don't) but the loya jika is not the people IMO.
It was not a plébiscite.
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Originally posted by straffo
I'm not sure of the real traduction of landslide but I think it's a bit too much he got about 60% of the votes.
I know as an American you trust representatives (and I don't) but the loya jika is not the people IMO.
It was not a plébiscite.
Hi Straffo,
1) I do not yet have the honor of being able to call myself an American. I am still a subject of Her Majesty the Queen living on a Green Card in the USA.
2) Karzai was not appointed by the Loya Jirga (Great Council - the primary law making body) he garnered over 60% of 8.1 million votes cast by Afghans in their first free elections. There were 17 other candidates. International observers certified that the elections were free and fair.
- SEAGOON
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One candidate got 60% of the votes and there were 17 other candidates? I'd call that a landslide.
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1) ooops :)
2) I don't disagree with this.
It's just that as a Frenchman I've doubt when the election is not direct.
We had in the past a sort of electoral college and it was a mess.
Btw a landslide would more have been 80% for me :), except if Karzaď got 60% in the 1st turn* of the election.
* I'm not sure it's the right term ... but well I can't think of another :)
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Btw a landslide would more have been 80% for me , except if Karzaď got 60% in the 1st turn* of the election
With each of the other 17 candidates averaging just over 2% of the vote, how is this not a landslide? Just curious :)
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*edit* Whoops! posted to the wrong thread!! :lol
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Well I interpreted as it was similar to the system we use in my country.
55% at the 2nd turn is not a landslide. but it is at 1st turn.
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Interesting, Think the Iraqis will ask for the same thing?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Interesting, Think the Iraqis will ask for the same thing?
Good question, only time will tell.
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Hamid Karzai....didn't he used to work for United Oil of California? What a talented guy.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Hamid Karzai....didn't he used to work for United Oil of California? What a talented guy.
United Oil of California? never heard of them, what do they sell , olive oil?
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Slightly more than olive oil
From http://www.unocal.com, they do amongst other things -
Unocal's Business Activities
The company's North America Energy Operations and International Energy Operations groups are engaged in the exploration and production of crude oil and natural gas and project development in the U.S. and in various countries around the world. In 2002, Unocal produced 167,000 barrels of petroleum liquids and 1,826 million cubic feet of gas per day.
I'm sure its just a coincidence.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I wonder how many bases we'll have to close (http://www.defenselink.mil/brac/) here in the U.S. to support it.
BRAC is good for the military. There is quite a bit of redundancy in base functions spread among the services and by cutting the fat they can focus money on upkeep and upgrading the remaining facilities. This isn't something Congress is forcing on the military, the military is a driving force behind it. There's also talk of combining the Post Exchange organizations from the Army/Air Force and Navy/Marines, plus the commissaries into one entity.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Slightly more than olive oil
From http://www.unocal.com, they do amongst other things -
Unocal's Business Activities
The company's North America Energy Operations and International Energy Operations groups are engaged in the exploration and production of crude oil and natural gas and project development in the U.S. and in various countries around the world. In 2002, Unocal produced 167,000 barrels of petroleum liquids and 1,826 million cubic feet of gas per day.
I'm sure its just a coincidence.
A link to a profile for Mr. Karzai. It says nothing about him being employed by Unocal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3135938.stm
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
BRAC is good for the military. There is quite a bit of redundancy in base functions spread among the services and by cutting the fat they can focus money on upkeep and upgrading the remaining facilities. This isn't something Congress is forcing on the military, the military is a driving force behind it. There's also talk of combining the Post Exchange organizations from the Army/Air Force and Navy/Marines, plus the commissaries into one entity.
The DoD has wanted to close a significant number of bases for a very long time now. Congress is the roadblock.
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"The muslims are absolutely gonna love this. There will be no end to the conspiracy theories about how Karzai is a 'US lackey'."
Lets be honest here. He is a US lackey! oil pipeline anyone?
Even so the Taliban were are extremist nutters and deserved to go.
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HAH!
When I read the title, I thought that the Afghanis were asking for permanent Afghani bases inside the US....
Now THAT would be cool, huh? They could help us defend against terrorists when the level goes to ORANGE and RED.
Tom
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Originally posted by Elfie
The DoD has wanted to close a significant number of bases for a very long time now. Congress is the roadblock.
Yeah because the communities are selfish and want the jobs...example actually 2 from this area alone. USS JFK will decommission this year leaving mayport,FL without a CV..Navy said it would move one from Norfolk (where there are 5 homported)..Hampton roads went into an uproar...of the tens of thousands of sailors here..they can't affort to lose 3000? Most of the time the community acts like it hates us...then there is NAS Oceana..Navy wants to close it because the community that moved next to the base long after it was built complains about jet noise to the point that they actually had to do a rotating flight pattern so no one neighborhood had the jets taking off/landing overhead all the time...well as soon as they got wind that the largest employer in Va Beach might pull out...they started whining..they even have the balls to tell the navy..kepp the base..relocate the jets.:rolleyes:
so yes pork barreling by representatives and senators hold the military back from "rightsizing" their assets..
BTW with 3/4 of the Atlantic fleet here in Hampton Roads..don't you guys agree that they could be fair and let Jacksonville/Mayport have one measley CV? bunch of selfish bastards.
I wish the Navy would pull out of here completely..just so I can have the satisfaction of seeing such a crime ridden, sailor hating, too much taxing, opressive police having, cheesehole die a slow economic starved death.
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Blimey you'll have bases everywhere soon.
How about spending money on one of these then everyone will realy have to love the USA!;)
(http://www.deathstar.ch/entertainment/images/deathstar_intro.jpg)
Guess we need to tell Bush that al quaida is infiltrating terrorist cells onto Mars before he'll seriously spend on space exploration though.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Elfie
A link to a profile for Mr. Karzai. It says nothing about him being employed by Unocal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3135938.stm
Seems the jurys still out, just so happened it was mentioned in a book I'm reading.
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I'd rather have the money flow going to our own nation opposed to a bunch of other nations that don't give a watermelon about us in the first place.
Though it'll probably never happen due to some of the strategic locations we are in. I'd like to see bases outside the US that are in countries that despise us and constantly bich about us get shutdown. Remove all those jobs given to the locals by our government.
Take all the money the bases bring into their economies yanked with little to no notice.
Bring that money to other surrounding countries that really give a watermelon and watch the old base "communities" whine and cry about how ruthless and uncaring the US is.
I don't know how the Navy guys are but if they are anything like some of the Marines I've been stationed around they normally bring it on themselves. When I was stationed in NC not only did my base make it illegal for the Marines to use certain facilities on base but so did the local and surrounding communities. If you even looked like a Marine they would start to turn you away until they found out you were Air Force. I had multiple occassions where I was about to be refused entry to clubs and bars because of my high and tight. I showed them my ID and they apologized and let me in. A few places had signs posted on the front doors saying Marines were not allowed in the facility.
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Remember they're not asking permanent bases just to please US; there are more selfish reasons for that.
Anyways that could be good for both: Afghanistan would get craploads of money from US and it would also have well equipped army (not its own of course) to maintain peace.
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Originally posted by Chortle
Seems the jurys still out, just so happened it was mentioned in a book I'm reading.
If he had been employed by an American oil company, I'm pretty sure the BBC would have mentioned it. Even if he had been, I wouldnt read anything into it just yet. From the link I posted he seems to be a really good diplomat. His diplomatic skills appear to be what brought about enough support to get him elected.
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The UN have a committment to have forces based there. The RAF replaced the USMC last year at a Forward Air Base (Kandahar - both operating AV-8B/Harrier GR7A) and another nation will replace the RAF in due course. It'll turn into another Bosnia...
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Originally posted by Skydancer
You'll end up with an empire if you're not carefull!;)
We're still a young country. Don't we deserve the same opportunities everyone else had? :D
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and ppl see bases there as nothing but a good thing?
and yes, there will be permanent bases in Iraq also - also another good thing for the security of this country at this time in history
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It'll all end either very expensively, or in tears VOR:D
We know!
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yes. yes you do.
so do the french and the germans and the spanish and the portugese and the dutch and the serbs et al.
the beat goes on.