Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: sourkraut on September 11, 2001, 10:33:00 AM
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I am dumbfounded why anyone would celebrate these acts of war. I take this celebration personally and will hold it in my heart forever. If you celebrate, you are my enemy.
Sour
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Totally agree.
Even more, I think Political correctness is the n+1 casualty of this massacre.
I'm reading news that Afghanistan would continue protecting Osama Bin Laden. Time has come for this to stop. And any mean is justifiable (sp?). Not that he is guilty of this particular crime, but he has lots of merits earned already. Start with him, and then search for the rest. I don't mean arabians, or whatever race, religion etc. I mean terrorists. In an ample sense. Not only the bombers/hijackers/killers. Not only organizers. Hunt down for every people who support them in ANY manner. Bomb them to dust.
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Who is celebrating?
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Not a US cityzen myself, but I cannot understand how can anyone be celebrating such a tragedy / civilian losses...
Saw
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"a. Overview: horrible battles, weapons, devastation, death
b. Nuclear confrontation in the Middle East
c. Mediterranean campaign and the battles of Gibraltar
d. Bomb sent at New York by the Antichrist, France retaliates
e. Bacteriological warfare strikes New York and London
f. Antichrist conquers Europe
g. The Antichrist invades Britain
h. The crucial meeting on the naval carrier
i. Seas, rivers, lakes boil; famines lead to insane cannibalism
j. Antichrist's commander succumbs to key strategic failure
k. Russia breaks free of the Antichrist
l. North Pole Alliance of North America, Europe, Russia forms
m. Ogmios confronts the Antichrist, fate of world in balance
n. Antichrist eventually dethroned"
Shit I remembered this out of the blue.
If the afghan gov. is protecting the person responisble for this, they can kiss their tulips goodbye. IF.
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Who is celebrating?
Palestine people in Jerusalen, Funkedup. They were laughing, clapping and cheering.
As I was seeing it I was thinking in what this means for them. What is me ,I dont understand what are they celebrating either. First because what has happened will run against them. Second because cheering this things will mean for them...
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This is our reward for trying to be the "world's policeman."
As I have said here before many times, Washinton's Farewell address was damn good advice.
We are now, and will continue for some time, to pay the price for not heeding it.
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Those handsomehunkes where celebrating Irags invasion and his supposed coming massacare of US Forces in the Gulf...guess WHO got thier bellybutton kicked.
I have no sympathy anymore for them. Screw them. I hate them. Screw thier wants, thier future nation. I hope they will learn to not only hate us but also diddlying fear us.
xBAT
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Originally posted by R4M:
Palestine people in Jerusalen, Funkedup. They were laughing, clapping and cheering.
As I was seeing it I was thinking in what this means for them. What is me ,I dont understand what are they celebrating either. First because what has happened will run against them. Second because cheering this things will mean for them...
because they are freakin idiots. by showing their support, they undermine any sympathy some may show for their cause here in the US. Makes it easier for us to retaliate without regard..
Anyone/group who celebrates this publicly, marks themselves for retribution.
freaking idiots..........
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In the eyes of the world community the US is cleaarly justified in seeking retribution where we like. And if you protest then.............
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oh great.
lets throw Nastodamas at it.
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Just some speculation:
IF this happened because of crises in middle-east incidents like these in N.Y and Washington will happen again, sooner or later, if Israel and Lebanon can't find a lasting solution to their relations. If this is whats behind this terror-act then bombing a nation is not a solution but a request to have more terrorist acts like this in a long run.
IF this was planned by Bin Laden and Afghanistan refuses to give that sob to the States for trial U.S could
a)Try to kidnap Bin Laden from there or
b)Bomb whole nation.
AFAIK that country already lives in (almost) stoneage so kidnapping that sob could be better option and bombings like those in Iraq and Serbia always kill innocent people= adding more fuel to the bonfire.
IF some another group is behind those terrorist-acts... hmm who would they be?
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Let's not forget another thing. The World trade Towers also hosted companies from around the world. The self-righteous idiots who did this made a lot of enemies today.
Screw anyone one or country who will not back up the United States for the action we will take. It's parking lot time and we have the means to do it and now they have given us every reason to do it.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
because they are freakin idiots
Well, that is the only plausible explanation I find, too.
Skuzzy, believe me, a nation with decent people doesnt need to have some citizens killed in such a monstrosity, to get angry at the agressors. I dont think ANYONE decent can feel anything but indignation against those murderers.
As Pepe said,I hope you bomb whoever did this to dust. Revenge wont be the word to describe it when you do it...but Justice.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Toad - barring the recent history of the Middle East, I think labelling the US's involvement as a 'Policeman' over there is a little inaccurate. It's always been a bit more complicated than that. Also, isn't this the sort of thing McVeigh and his nutter friends relish? A blow to the 'New World Order'?
But I just can't get my head around the scale of this thing. It's so audacious, so huge I can't see how anyone short of a large State could do this thing.
I think this attack is an attack on the US in particular, and democrative civilisation in general. I can't see how the perpetrators will escape retaliation.
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Originally posted by Toad:
This is our reward for trying to be the "world's policeman."
As I have said here before many times, Washinton's Farewell address was damn good advice.
We are now, and will continue for some time, to pay the price for not heeding it.
damn straight...
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Toad,
I have to disagree with you here buddy. Simply ignoring a problem and hoping it won't come to us is not the way to protect our country and interests. Like it or not, the world is a much smaller place tan in Washington's time. Event WILL overtake us whether we want them to or not.
Our interests ARE global. We cannot maintain our country with the assets soley within our borders, or even in this hemisphere. our economy is tied to the rest of te globe on the basis of energy and every other major product you can think of. Remember what happened to the price of computers when that chip factory burned down overseas??
If we act like an ostrich and place our heads in the sand it only means we won't see it coming wehn we are taken out. Forwarned is forarmed, provided you believe the warning and can prepare. Closing our eyes to the rest of the world deletes that possibility.
I agree that being the "worlds policeman" is a damn dirty job and it has risks. Having been a cop I did things no one would want to do, but someon HAD to do them. It can either be us, or someone like bin ladin will absolutely step in and do what the fek they want. We just have to analyze where we NEED to go and what we HAVE to do. This requires careful thought and precise actions on our part as a country.
Ignoring playground bullies only emboldens them. It tells them no one will stop them and they can do what they please. Someone HAS to be the playground monitor. Who do you want it to be, us or someone like hussien/ bin ladin/ kadafy/ arafat or any number of others who by virtue of location and empathy with a population group can influence things on a global scale?
Think, then act.
Mav
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well said mav
gw lived in a much different world than we do today
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Intervene in the affairs of a sovereign nation WITHOUT a justifiable cause and this is what you get.
We've deployed around the world to "right wrongs" and "support democracy" and all the other buzzwords. These, despite UN good wishes, are NOT justifiable cause.
Fact of the matter is we're dealing primarily with BARBARIANS. We're interfering in the Sovereign Affairs of Barbarian nations. Fools on a more foolish mission.
This is what you get. And you're going to get more of it... and your kids will get more as well... and their kids.
People from all over the world have come here. People that had age old hatreds for others of another race or religion back in their native lands.
By and large, they have been able to put that crap behind them once they found this "special place". Here, the Baptists don't roll tanks down the road to take out the Mormon village after Sunday Services.
Our mistake is thinking that we can extend what is special here back into the places that are the sources of hatred and conflict around the world. After all, people from all those places come here and get along after a fashion, don't they?
Big mistake. The Barbarian nations will never change.
Try to force them with "American might" and you will see a lot more of what you saw on CNN today.
Two choices: 1) Mind our own damn business or 2) kill every stinking one of them.
2 won't happen. Thankfully, we're not that kind of nation; we are not the Barbarians. Besides, you'd always miss enough of them to continue the "jihad forever".
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here are another bunch of idiots:
http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010912/world/afp/_Bullseye___say_Egyptians_as_they_celebrate_anti-US_attacks.html (http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010912/world/afp/_Bullseye___say_Egyptians_as_they_celebrate_anti-US_attacks.html)
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["The Americans are cowards. They use other countries to hit us. They don't have the courage to meet us face to face," said Khalil Matar, 43, who works in a state-run soap factory. "The myth of the indestructible United States has gone up in smoke."]
Khalil Matar. Wants to US Forces to fight and kill him face to face. Check. Next?
Scumbags.
SOB
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Toad,
We held back before and what did it get us? Events overtook us anyhow and we were involved in not one but two world wars. Our casualties were far too high in each.
Like it or not, our position has placed us in a spot where we have to do something. Inactivity, as before, will be taken for a sign of weakness. It WILL generate additional attacks and no place will be safe in any country.
I agree with you on the premise that we should expose our troops into areas that effect our national interests. Unfortunately that covers A LOT of territory. Extremism can take many roads from military, terrorism and economic actions to have a severe impact o our nation. To be simply reactive is to allow everyone to have the first shot and cause damage before we can take steps to minimize it.
It's time to be more proactive and enlist all civilized nations in this fight. This isn't a case of the US against the world. This is a case of the world against terrorists. They are on every continent and will have to be dealt with. Now we can deal with them on our terms or theirs. One way has fewer casualties than the other. Either way they will not allow us to live in peace or ignore them.
Mav
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As a tree with strong uninjured roots, though cut down, grows up again, so, when deep craving is not rooted out, suffering arises again and again.
-Dhammapada
I say take this terrorist tree out by its roots, just like a bad tooth otherwise the pain will re-0ccur. Either that or someone figure a way to talk sense into the minds of these morons, freakin fanatics. Sorry but I don't see the latter happening in our lifetime..their hatred for us runs way too deep & just getting deeper.
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This is a case of the world against terrorists. They are on every continent and will have to be dealt with. Now we can deal with them on our terms or theirs. One way has fewer casualties than the other. Either way they will not allow us to live in peace or ignore them.
Absolutely agree. Terrorist organisations share resources and know-how as a matter of course. It's time to take the bull by the horns and stand up to it.
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They're celebrating because they're too stupid to see past all the ignorant nonsense labels of 'nation', 'country', 'race' or 'religion' and notice that in fact the victims were ordinary human beings (surprisingly like themselves) who they never got to know well enough to hate for any real reason.
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line up another F111 for this guy please:
"Saddam Hussein's Iraq said the United States deserved Tuesday's attacks in New York and Washington as the fruits "of its crimes against humanity."
Under the headline "America burns," the official newspaper Al-Iraq said that "what happened in the United States yesterday is a lesson for all tyrants, oppressors and criminals."
Overnight an official Iraqi statement said: "The American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity." "
Seems Moammar Gadhafi remembers Reagan's fly over all to well...
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/mideast.reaction/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/12/mideast.reaction/index.html)
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Originally posted by Eagler:
As a tree with strong uninjured roots, though cut down, grows up again, so, when deep craving is not rooted out, suffering arises again and again.
-Dhammapada
I say take this terrorist tree out by its roots
i agree with your sentiment on cutting terrorism at the root 100%, but you are using a lesson from the dhammapada to justify vengence and that is way out of context.
it's intended as a lesson about the great buddhist tenet of 'suffering' and extholing the virtues of self control.
it's not at all about killing people to prevent them from causing more harm. it's not your opinion that bugs me, just your use of the dhammapada to back it up - it really goes against those lessons.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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The foe we now face does not attack us due to our "police" actions. They are after us as they see us as the cornor stone of a society that they despise. They see us as "satans" own so to speak thus these attacks.
Isolationism has never worked... our Nation is far too intangled economicaly across the globe to even consider such a policy now. Simply the fact of being the "wealthiest" nation in the world makes us a fat target.
I totaly fail to see how we could of "earned" this. Our actions through out history show a habit of doing what is right to the best of our ablity. We certainly have made mistakes and have had dark moments BUT we are far from the "evil empire" these terrorists scream about. They hate us simply because we are...nothing more. Turning our cheek will only earn thier contempt and more of what happened. We MUST strike back... we must root out all like them and then keep doing so for untold years in the future. The price of terrorism must be made to high...
and now soon I feel that is what is going to begin happening.
xBAT
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
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Originally posted by mrfish:
i agree with your sentiment on cutting terrorism at the root 100%, but you are using a lesson from the dhammapada to justify vengence and that is way out of context.
it's intended as a lesson about the great buddhist tenet of 'suffering' and extholing the virtues of self control.
it's not at all about killing people to prevent them from causing more harm. it's not your opinion that bugs me, just your use of the dhammapada to back it up - it really goes against those lessons.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
I know mrfish
ironic isn't it, just like life..
<S>
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Originally posted by batdog:
I totaly fail to see how we could of "earned" this. Our actions through out history show a habit of doing what is right to the best of our ablity. We certainly have made mistakes and have had dark moments BUT we are far from the "evil empire" these terrorists scream about. ...
xBAT
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
Yes, I think you and I and probably MOST Americans would agree with and believe in your statement.
However, right here on this BBS, in this small society, a quick search of some other threads will show that a few or perhaps several American posters would disagree with the above statement.
I think there is ample evidence that more than "several" non-US posters would also disagree with it. These are people that for the most part come from "allied" or at least "friendly" countries with respect to the US.
Therefore, it's clear that not everyone agrees with this view of the US as a benevolent power. Further, it's now clear that there are entities that SERIOUSLY disagree with your sentiment.
It's not a case of sticking our heads in the sand. The US can and will be defended. It's a question more of keeping our noses out of other people's business.
A prime example of this is the US-led, NATO authorized airstrikes on Bosnia. Yes, the Serbs, Croats, Muslims, et al were acting like Barbarians. They ARE Barbarians. That does not give the US authorization to attack them.
There was NO UN MANDATE or AUTHORIZATION for those attacks. There was no "world opinion", no "justification" for that attack.
Despite that irrefutable fact, the US led a massive air attack against a sovereign nation. The fact that other NATO countries joined in doesn't excuse it either. We were ALL wrong.
Had a nation or group of nation's attacked the US because they felt atrocities were being committed here, we'd have been outraged.
This gets back to the thread dealing with US entry into WW2. Like it or not, one Sovereign nation cannot simply attack another without justification under International Law/Law of War and "Just War".
This is the basic underlying truth that caused the United Nations to be formed in the first place. The idea is that we, the countries of the world, must AGREE that force is required and its use authorized by the world community BEFORE any one nation commits warlike acts against another.
The US, "knowing" it is "good" and "right" and "acting in the interests of peace" has all too often acted UNILATERALLY with military force.
Obviously, not everyone agrees that the US is always "good" or "right", etc. The result is retribution by terrorism, their only possibly response against such a huge superpower.
If the US keeps sticking its nose into other nations sovereign affairs, WITHOUT THE EXPRESS DIRECTION OF THE ENTIRE UN and without major participation by numerous other "non-aligned" countries, this terrorism will go on and on. So, we had all better get used to a new and more dangerous way of life.
By "non-aligned" countries, I mean the ones that are not viewed as the "normal" US allies, ones that seldom if ever get involved in International firefights.
For example, I'd think it a significant step forward if the Scandanavian countries handle the next major problem. Sure the US would suppport the operation logistically and monetarily. However, the "bad guys" of the world need to finally see that EVERYONE stands united against them... not just the US.
Otherwise, it's time we just defended our own borders, welcomed the refugees from the Barbarism and waited for the Barbarians to finally kill each other off entirely.
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It's not often that I agree with Toad. I think that this is one of those times. His point has merit. He may not be what we want to hear but that doesn't diminish the truth of it.
As for Iraq... Of course they celebrated. Their country is besieged. Our operations in Iraq haven't had U.N. sanction for years. Hey... maybe we do have just cause, but it's arguable.
There is no argument with regard to this week's attacks on us. We have the power and the sanction to act unilaterally. No one will question it.
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I say take this terrorist tree out by its roots
Originally posted by mrfish:
i agree with your sentiment on cutting terrorism at the root 100%, but you are using a lesson from the dhammapada to justify vengence and that is way out of context.
it's intended as a lesson about the great buddhist tenet of 'suffering' and extholing the virtues of self control.
it's not at all about killing people to prevent them from causing more harm. it's not your opinion that bugs me, just your use of the dhammapada to back it up - it really goes against those lessons.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
Fix the problem at the root of the cause is the best way to fix anything. It could be something so small as what someone had for breakfast one particular morning. mrfish, I believe "take the terrorists out" as in actually murdering and destroying everything is not justified.
"Fact of the matter is we're dealing primarily with BARBARIANS. We're interfering in the Sovereign Affairs of Barbarian nations. Fools on a more foolish mission." - Toad. This is biased of course, but I agree 100% nonetheless. You need to study their culture, their history, their religion to absolutely understand them. Their view of the world is completely opposite to the 'western' point of view. Too many people from the westwern point of view (ie, US citizen, duh :)hehe) are uneducated! They simply do not know much about them at all. They become filled with rage and just want to release it via death and destruction. And it's the EXACT same thing the other way around! We simply do not understand eachother. They seem barbaric and foolish to us. We seem tyranical and arrogant to them. It works both ways. If we want to resolve something, we need to educate BOTH sides. Educate as in take a history course. Their behavior dates back to.. what is it.. the 7th century when the Koran was written? THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.. PLEASE. That should be "EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE YOU SPEAK.. PLEASE." I can spot an uneducated person with foggy historical knowledge the moment they make a stupid comment. When you make assumptions and put them in stupid posts, you distort the true root and meaning of the thread. Hey, I sure as hell don't know everything, but it couldn't hurt to learn about some history and cultural backrounds of these people!
That is the root of the problem!! Thank you.
Oct out!!
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Octavius ]
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yeah oct there's a few good points there - i'm well read in buddhist ideas but shamefully unenlightened when it comes to practice.
the real solution would be for each human to address the inherent suffering in "themselves" which would of course, eliminate the need for people to bring suffering to others.
"themselves" is in quotes to express irony, because the act of drawing a distinction between yourself and everything else is the very act that leads to the trap of ego fulfillment and an unenlightened worldview and....blah....blah blah...blah :)
the problem is, right now the only thing i can think about is payback no matter how much i try to forgive them. i'd love to be able rise above the need for vengence, but i still want to see someone pay in blood. i just can't seem to turn that instinct off just now....
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Somehow I doubt that further study of their history, culture and religion is going to to make their barbarism any more acceptable or understandable to me.
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I simply mean their misunderstanding of our views (vice versa) could be the cause of their barbarism. I hope you like that better than my previous post. :)
oct out.
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No, I'm not buying that one either.
Their Barbarism against us... maybe.
How do you explain their Barbarism against other non-US entities?
How do you explain their Barbarism against fellow countrymen of a different religion? (Check Sudan to see what I'm referring to.)
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I don't really understand 'their' world completely, either. It seems to me that these guys want everything to remain as it was in the 7th Century. To them any deviation from the 7th Century seems evil?
It looks as if they view the way the U.S. goes about life as follows. We advertise jeans by showing a womans rear end, panty hose with hosed legs, perfume with a naked nape, and diet aids with bare bellies. Hollywood glamorizes murder, robbery, adultery, blasphemy, and every other broken commandment they can put on film. Our businesses, that are the first to 'invade' foreign soil, are the very companies to finance these films and yes Capitalism is seen as a crime to them. This is just the bare surface of the crime, to them it seems.
'They' do not seem to have a need to see into us, to understand us, to learn our history. Just as the Vietnamese could not conceive of tomorrow, those in the Middle East cannot conceive of learning our ways, because to do so would violate their ways and actually be a crime against their religion.
If, I have any inkling of 'them,' and in order to win this engagement, we will literally have to do as Sun Tzu suggested and allow the terrain to weary our opponents. Retreat by pulling out our commerce, by withdrawing support and influence, by removing our technologies, and by allowing none of our culture in.
By allowing them to think they have won a major defeat, they will never see their demise coming.
I can see that the seed to their defeat has already been planted. They are dependant upon us, as our technologies have created important medicines and our farms vital foods. Take it all away and they will be happy; at first. I bet it all caves in within a decade and the majority will then begin to clamor for the U.S. to return.
I don't just mean Afghanistan, either. I mean everything from Western Egypt to Eastern Pakistan. Pull out support, communications, energy, medicine, and transpportation. Deny them every convenience of the Western World, and every access to the outside. Take it all away!
I don't see it happening, but it would be an interesting approach.
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Voss
Good point but the void we created by pulling out will then be filled by China, Russia, India or Pakistan to name a few. Israel would be crushed eventually. There goes any influence of democracy in the region.
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Yeah, I know. I would like to annex Afghanistan, but I think it not worth the effort. We need ownership of one of the oil fields in the region. Otherwise, we are going to have to put up with problems like this as time goes on. Isolationism won't work, because as you point out someone else will fill the void. The problem with a permanent presence, though, is that it will be the most obvious target.
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Toad <S>... you post was very well thought out and made good sense. I can agree with much of it.
xBAT