Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: agent 009 on April 16, 2005, 10:36:52 PM
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Dora should have & could have gone into production early 43 with DB 603 & gm 1 boost, but instead the ME 410, HE 219 UHU & DO 335 got the 603 motors. Over 8000 603's were built during war.410 was cancelled sept 44.
A big might have been. 603 motor did have some teething probs I have heard, but nonetheless it would have been a 450 plus aircraft with central cannon available mid 43. A world beater perhaps. Big misssed opportunity. Thoughts?
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It wouldnt have been the Dora, it would have been Caesar.
Fw190C would have given the LW a 450mph+, 3 cannon, 2 heavy MG armed mass produced high alt fighter in early 43. FW was fully ready to start production of this model in late 1942... Yes it would have been a world beater, fully competitive with the best late 1944 alled planes but in early 1943, and a better performer than the Dora...
The bomber campaign would have been much different with a whole lot of those flying about..
Instead they got a 430mph, 2 cannon, 2 heavy MG armed, mid alt FW190D fighter by late 1944.. The 450mph high alt Dora the D12/13 didnt come out until spring 1945 and had only 3 cannon..
Dumb..
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Thanks Grun. Agreed.
Next question. I read the V-18 went well over 480 mph. I know it couldn't be mass produced as they didn't have high grade steel for turbocharger. they tried ceramics, but these melted.
So, question is, did it really go well over 480 mph?
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coulda woulda shoulda....the He & the Do were more deserving than the FW anyway
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Originally posted by bunch
coulda woulda shoulda....the He & the Do were more deserving than the FW anyway
If they were more deserving I don't know, but let's not forget that there were very high performing PROTOTYPE planes on both sides. Getting these planes into squadron service is a different matter. 'The powers that be' made some poor decisions, also on both sides. But even if the Ceasar and the Me-262 would have been brought into mass production the war would have been lost for Germany, it just would have lasted longer.
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Yes, but if Superman had been born in Germany, it would have changed everything.
Ubermann!
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Originally posted by bunch
coulda woulda shoulda....the He & the Do were more deserving than the FW anyway
How so? The 219 barely made it into combat late in the war. do335 never did. The me410 was a disster in its main role, and was in fact outlived by its predecessor the Bf110...
In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...
This design would have given a lot more worth to the LW than any of those failed twins..
Of course this means Berlin would have been nuked in 46, but in late 42 it was a stupid decision to get the db603 to those awful wasteful twins.
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You should also note that the FW190D with JUMO213A could have been made available at end of '43 instead of August/September '44.
After trials in late '42/early '43 the testing was almost completely stoped until spring '44.
Not to forget that Heinkel had a fully developed Jet Design the HE280 (or was it 288) ready in '42. Though the performance did not match that of the ME262, germany could have had a Jet interceptor ready by end of '43 with 3 centrally mounted cannons and 480mph Topspeed.
But i am as a german, am very glad Berlin did the wrong decisisions and i don't have to live in a nuclear radiant area.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
...In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...
This design would have given a lot more worth to the LW than any of those failed twins..
Of course this means Berlin would have been nuked in 46, but in late 42 it was a stupid decision to get the db603 to those awful wasteful twins.
But don't forget that the very nature of dictatorship guarantees that crappy decisions are going to be made more often. Arrogance, concentration of power, and (sometimes violent) disincentive to offer unpopular opinions means that stupidity os more likely to go unchecked....
As in many things, you get what you pay for. The same insanity that led to starting the war guaranteed it's loss....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...
According to Delivery Plan LC 21 of Dec 1943, production of the Fw190C was not to start til March 1943 and continue to March 1944, with 727 a/c produced. So, saying late 1942 is pushing it a bit.
A graph in the Hermann's Dora book has the 190 mit DB603 doing 730kph @ 7km with C3/2000ps. St-u Not has it doing 700kph @ 7km.
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Yes, some bad decisions were made. But they did put the VW into production & it ended up being a good call. What was it's top speed?
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Originally posted by agent 009
Yes, some bad decisions were made. But they did put the VW into production & it ended up being a good call. What was it's top speed?
With or without a tailwind?
Course, it didnt have a functional heater, which could be a problem at altitude.
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Originally posted by Simaril
But don't forget that the very nature of dictatorship guarantees that crappy decisions are going to be made more often. Arrogance, concentration of power, and (sometimes violent) disincentive to offer unpopular opinions means that stupidity os more likely to go unchecked....
As in many things, you get what you pay for. The same insanity that led to starting the war guaranteed it's loss....
yup
yup
anddddd
yup
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the beetle did have a functional heater .....you just couldnt turn it off :D
Well that was the case on my old 66
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How so? The 219 barely made it into combat late in the war. do335 never did. The me410 was a disster in its main role, and was in fact outlived by its predecessor the Bf110...
In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...
This design would have given a lot more worth to the LW than any of those failed twins..
Of course this means Berlin would have been nuked in 46, but in late 42 it was a stupid decision to get the db603 to those awful wasteful twins.
He219 was a dominant nightfighter & the Do335 was faster than the FW190...i didnt mention the 410 but that didnt stop you from basing more than half of your response on the Hornisse. A dayfighter He219 would had outperformed that dog
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Originally posted by Simaril
But don't forget that the very nature of dictatorship guarantees that crappy decisions are going to be made more often. Arrogance, concentration of power, and (sometimes violent) disincentive to offer unpopular opinions means that stupidity os more likely to go unchecked....
As in many things, you get what you pay for. The same insanity that led to starting the war guaranteed it's loss....
I find this an uplifting and optimistic comment (I say this without a trace of irony)
As far as the heater of old VW's is concerned, they work... but not that good. The heat exhangers are quite primitive and the car will produce heat proportionally to its (air cooled) engine speed. So under hard acceleration you'll get heat, idling in a snowstorm... no. Furthermore are the heater channels susceptible to rust.
Never owned a real beetle but I did own a disastrous T3 Bus from 1981, one of the very last with an air cooled engine. Same problems there.
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Originally posted by bunch
He219 was a dominant nightfighter & the Do335 was faster than the FW190...i didnt mention the 410 but that didnt stop you from basing more than half of your response on the Hornisse. A dayfighter He219 would had outperformed that dog
The He 219 was a failure as a night fighter and would have been just as useless as any other 2 engine day fighter. It could barely catch the Mosquito bombers.
The Do 335 had issues that would have had to be worked out before it became a useful day fighter. The main issue was the overheating of the rear engine. Can't get the fast speed with only 1 1/2 engines.
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The HE219 was both a failure and a success.
Sound funny but is somewhat true.
The HE219 was constantly plugged by the missing high power engines that were originally though to be used in it.
The actual production planes severely suffered from being underpowered. If the right engines would have been available the plane would have been much better.
The cockpit was quite good for a night fighter and if i remember correctly, beside the fact that it was underpowered (which is a very bad thing on a 2-engined-plane) it was an easy plane to fly on instruments.
Additionaly the performance of any german night fighter was decreased due to the german radar technologie requiring large arrays of external antennas.
And again germany took a triple road, instead of either using the HE219, TA154 or JU88G the LW tried to developed them all.
Just a waste of resources. The JU88G with JUMO213E engines was fully capable as a night fighter as was an already proofen design. Basicly the JU88 was the german Mosquito. Not a WOODEN wonder, but a very well performing fast bomber/fighter.
EDIT: I think the DO335 had the potential to become the fastest piston engined fighter of WW2. But it was a large heavy plane, well suited as bomber interceptor but less capable as a fighter.
But anyway the jet age had startet and made the idea of the DO335 obsolete.
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The VW unlike the Jeep did have an enclosed cockpit & probably was a bit more aerodynamic.
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Originally posted by agent 009
Yes, but if Superman had been born in Germany, it would have changed everything.
Ubermann!
Check your Superman history. He was originally a BAD GUY based on the German ideal of a "superman".
Believe it or not.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The He 219 was a failure as a night fighter and would have been just as useless as any other 2 engine day fighter. It could barely catch the Mosquito bombers.
The Do 335 had issues that would have had to be worked out before it became a useful day fighter. The main issue was the overheating of the rear engine. Can't get the fast speed with only 1 1/2 engines.
Well, to easily catch the DH98 bombs speeds of near 500mph would be required, the He219 could do it & no other LW pistion nightfighter could. Whats more, it could outrun any allied nightfighter. Given significant numbers it would have been tremenously effective, it's failure was caused by other than the A/C. The He219 would have been a more effective platform for launching rockets into formations than the Me410, which is about all the fighting the 410s really did
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Originally posted by bunch
Well, to easily catch the DH98 bombs speeds of near 500mph would be required, the He219 could do it & no other LW pistion nightfighter could. Whats more, it could outrun any allied nightfighter. Given significant numbers it would have been tremenously effective, it's failure was caused by other than the A/C. The He219 would have been a more effective platform for launching rockets into formations than the Me410, which is about all the fighting the 410s really did
The He 219 could barely manage to hit 380mph, on a good day (this is from some Heinkel graphs). This was slightly slower than the Me 410B. The 416mph number one sees quoted was for a stipped down a/c that had the exhaust shrouds removed, the radar antenna removed and some other weight saving. The special Mossie hunter version never was made.
The Mossie NF 30s, of which 526 were built, could do 424mph at 26,500ft, 400mph at 13,500ft which would leave the Heinkel sucking its exhaust fumes. The Mossie NF 30 appeared in March 1944.
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As what you write is contrary to what i have read by Mosquito Mk.XXX crew who were unable to close to firing range on aircraft they ID'd as He219, i guess i have to choose if i believe actual combat crew or some riled up guy on the 'net....i guess i choose you
...another note: He219 could do it at the altitude where it counted, where it's victims flew. the 410 was, i'm sure, kicking the crap out of all the B-17 formations flying at 5000m.
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Originally posted by bunch
He219 was a dominant nightfighter & the Do335 was faster than the FW190...i didnt mention the 410 but that didnt stop you from basing more than half of your response on the Hornisse. A dayfighter He219 would had outperformed that dog
219 was a dog and barely made it into service.
do335 never made it into service. Even if it had by late 1945 it would have been outclassed by the P51H and P47M both of which were faster, more maunuverable, climbed better etc.
In contrast the FW190C would have been available in early 1943 and would have bben the worlds undisputed best high alt air dominance fighter for about a year until the allies developed Spit 14, Tempest, and the P51B became available in number. Even then the early 43 intial Fw190C would be faster than all of them, and thts not even consideing upgrades it might have had to improve performace in its firsty year,
But yea, go ahead and say that 2 twins that saw virtually no use late in the war, when the issue was cleraly decided aginst the LW were more worthy than a fighter of the FW190c caliber which was ready to be avilable in quantity in early 43 - a perriod when the wester airwar was still in play...
As for the 410, it was the real reson db603 was diverted from fw190c. It went into production at the same late 42 early 43 timeframe and the rLM gave it priority over 190C and so it got the engines and fw190c was done. Thats why I wrote about it.
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Originally posted by bunch
...another note: He219 could do it at the altitude where it counted, where it's victims flew. the 410 was, i'm sure, kicking the crap out of all the B-17 formations flying at 5000m.
Sure what ever you say. :rolleyes:
The 410's loaded weight was almost 2000kg(4500lb) lighter and had a service ceiling almost 1100m(3300ft) higher than the 219.
There was NO Mosquito NF MkXXX.
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Um Do 335 did get into combat 44, ( not very many ), according to Clostermann. He chased one in his Tempest & couldn't catch it.
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Not really combat if an unarmed prototype on a test flight runs into enemy fighters because their invincible vaterland is getting overrrun. :)
And on that note, I'm off to watch a little German movie caled: Good Bye Lenin. (http://sonyclassics.com/goodbye/flash.html)
:lol
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Sure what ever you say. :rolleyes:
The 410's loaded weight was almost 2000kg(4500lb) lighter and had a service ceiling almost 1100m(3300ft) higher than the 219.
There was NO Mosquito NF MkXXX.
Once again i have to make my choice of believing stirred up angry 'net dude or WW2 vet's 1st person account. For the sake of politeness, i choose you. Please send Emmanuel Gustin an email to correct his here-to-fore authoratative Military Aircraft Database http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/index.html
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/br/MOSQUITO.html
(http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/mossienf30.jpg)
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Originally posted by bunch
Once again i have to make my choice of believing stirred up angry 'net dude or WW2 vet's 1st person account. For the sake of politeness, i choose you. Please send Emmanuel Gustin an email to correct his here-to-fore authoratative Military Aircraft Database http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/index.html
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/br/MOSQUITO.html
(http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/mossienf30.jpg)
stirred up angry 'net dude :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rofl
Here are some Mosquito ONLY sites:
http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito.html
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie02.htm
http://www.vectorsite.net/avmoss.html
Now what did Gustin say about the NF 30, not the NF XXX.;)
Speed: 682km/h or 423.786mph (rounded off, 424mph).
So I don't know what you are yapping about as Gunstin agrees with the speed I posted.:eek:
LOL bunch, I told you where that 416mph number came from. :( Who would you believe, some Heinkel performance graphs or some dude's 'net site? For the sake of politeness I will go with the Heinkel graphs.
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He219 is the "UHU" right?
Anyway, the little I know is that the Mosquito Nightfighters thougt it was a dangerous opponent. But there were very few.
The dominant German nightfighter was the 110 anyway, and a heavily armed 110 with antennas all over the place was no match for a Mossie...
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Just keep in mind that the He 219 nightfighter is just another hate-pet of the MiloMorai like the Bf 109. All forums are loud from his whining and endless rhetorics what a poor plane the 'Uhu' was. Even if it`s actual combat results proved to be outstanding (iirc, the first combat sortie brought 5 Lanc kills in a single Uhu). As for barely catching the Mossie bomber version, those could do no more than ca 380mph, and there was no such moron pilot who would run at max speed, nor would this pilot reach it`s target before running out of fuel... cruising speeds were far less than that, not to mention that while enourmous amount is whining is put into pointing out the Uhu`s speed was lower when night-equipment was fitted like flame dampers (WOW, huge discovery), the same equipment had to be fitted on the Mosquitos (and Lancasters etc.) as well, hurting performance just as bad.
But besides that, I think it was correct not to put the Uhu into production, regardless the nice qualties it had. There was no need for another, specialized type airframe in production when the multi purpose and proven Bf 110 and Ju 88 could do the job very well against the heavy bombers, and not wasting resources to counter a high profile nuisance the Mosquito was. Moreover, GM-1 boosted Ju 88 G subtypes have the same performance the Uhu had, so why bother with it?
Now back on the orig topic, it`s nice if an airplane completes it`s tests, but it`s different from being ready to go into production. First thing, the engine manufacturers may not keep up with the demands, this is quite usual thing to happen. Just think of the Me 262. Engines were not ready, neither yet mass produced.. And as for the 410s etc getting the 603 engines, keep in mind that in early 1943 there was hardly any opposing fighter design that would prompt for the immidiate production of such uber-performance fighter as the FW 190C.. at best the enemy had equal technology. Fast bombers like the 410 were however very usuful in their everyday tasks, if not so glorious as the shining fighters, but it`s always the bomber that wins the battles!
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It's not always the bombers that wins the battles!
That sounds outright AMREEGAN :D
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Just keep in mind that the He 219 nightfighter is just another hate-pet of the MiloMorai like the Bf 109. All forums are loud from his whining and endless rhetorics what a poor plane the 'Uhu' was. Even if it`s actual combat results proved to be outstanding (iirc, the first combat sortie brought 5 Lanc kills in a single Uhu). As for barely catching the Mossie bomber version, those could do no more than ca 380mph, and there was no such moron pilot who would run at max speed, nor would this pilot reach it`s target before running out of fuel... cruising speeds were far less than that, not to mention that while enourmous amount is whining is put into pointing out the Uhu`s speed was lower when night-equipment was fitted like flame dampers (WOW, huge discovery), the same equipment had to be fitted on the Mosquitos (and Lancasters etc.) as well, hurting performance just as bad.
You do have you problems Barbarosasa Isegrim. So :(. I am not blinded with luve, nor have tunnel vision for anything nazi Germany produced during WW2, as you are. Pointing out the myths with regard to the 219 is whinning? :rolleyes: Only Barbarosasa Isegrim would see it as that. :eek:
The NF 30 had flame dampers and was 40mph faster than your uber 219. :) Mossie bombers would climb to over 20,000ft over the North Sea and do a shallow dive to the target, thus increasing their speed substantionally. Barbarosasa Isegrim makes a big deal out of flame dampers and speed yet forgets that the 219 would soon run out of fuel very quickly if it ran at full speed for very long trying to catch these Mossies.
Streib only shot down 1 Lancaster on that night, the other 4 a/c were Hailfax. I know you will be a disbeliever, so go here, Reich, West and Südfront, May to Jul 1944. Vol. I, http://jg26.vze.com/
The 219 was so good that up to Nov 3 44, it only claimed 10 Mossies. Hptm Strunning with the most, claiming 3 of them, 1 in June and 2 in July. It only claimed 133 a/c til then. See claims in the trip report No. 779/44 by Heinkel employee Hilber.
One LW unit that was to use the 219 prefered to keep using its Ju 88s.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
stirred up angry 'net dude :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rofl
Here are some Mosquito ONLY sites:
http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito.html
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie02.htm
http://www.vectorsite.net/avmoss.html
Now what did Gustin say about the NF 30, not the NF XXX.;)
Speed: 682km/h or 423.786mph (rounded off, 424mph).
So I don't know what you are yapping about as Gunstin agrees with the speed I posted.:eek:
LOL bunch, I told you where that 416mph number came from. :( Who would you believe, some Heinkel performance graphs or some dude's 'net site? For the sake of politeness I will go with the Heinkel graphs.
Emmanuel Gustin has a proven track record of decades of accurate, unemotional assembly of infromation. You have a few years track record of ax grinding on a BBS. 1940s german industrailists dont have a particular reputation for honesty, but rather for having had their facts suit their needs at the moment....100 group pilots called them Mk.XXX, you should go correct them where they are so obviously wrong or not disguise you lack of knowledge with pety semantics....pilots seem rarely to have wanted to switch from an aircraft they are doing well on to another, even when the later did turn out to be a step up
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:rolleyes: RAF pilots were notorious for identifying their a/c incorrectly. The Spit IXs are a good example. After the Mk XX, the Mossies got Roman numeral Mk numbers. See Gustin is not perfect.
So, if German industrialist have a reputation for dishonesty, why does the 219 graph show a 35-40mph decrease in speed than what Gunstin states? Another error by Gunstin?
Another error by Gustin is the A-5's ceiling which was just over 1000m lower than what he states. In fact, it is only slightly lower than the prototype A-0 with 1/2 fuel. We all know prototypes had better performance numbers than production a/c.
He 219 production:
totals
A-0 : 137
A-? : 17 (A-0 or A-2)
A-2 : 62+
for a total of 216+ while Guston states "only 294". Notice no A-5s.
Pilots had a good reason for not wanting to switch. The 219 was not a step up from the 88.
You really should try to expand your reference sources bunch. But then, if your are not interested in seperating myth from the truth....? The only axe grinding pettiness I see is by you.:eek:
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Kurfürst,
The Mosquito B.Mk IV had a top speed of 380mph. The Mosquito B.Mk IX had, if I recall, a 408mph top speed and the Mosquito B.Mk XVI had a 416mph top speed. All of those were operating at the time the He219 was, though the Mosquito B.Mk IV's were probably war weary by that time.
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Oooooooooooo,
This could get to be real fun!
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Night fighting was not about roaring around at your top listed speed like day fighter combat. It was a matter of detection and stealth to close on a target that did not see you coming. Radar, flight endurance, crew ergonomics were much greater factors than how fast they flew.
He-219s did not go full throttle all over Germany, nor did Mosquitos, Bf 110s, Ju-88s or any of the others...
A Lancaster with a bombload cruised around @250 mph. You didnt need to go 400+ mph to catch it. Likewise for other axis and allied bombers.
A He-219 that was detected by a NF Mossie and attacked would probably not see it coming. Likewise for a NF Mossie being attacked. Most night kills were scored against targets that did not detect the attack untill it was too late. So endlessly arguing over "top speeds" is largely irrelevant, unless you are talking about a very slow fighter that could not properly close the distance on a bomber or an opposing night fighter.
By the time the pilot would say "crap im taking fire, I better out run him with my new boost system", he was already on fire and missing a wing.
What I have read on the He-219 is that its main drawback was the unreliability of its engines, which would not have endeared it to NJG pilots, but many new a/c had powerplant bugs that needed working out, this was commonplace in WW2. As it was the He-219 did not see large scale production, but it was a potentially very good design. It had a good operational record for the sorties it flew.
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Squire,
Not really true. Top speeds aren't really useful, but they do indicate cruise speeds which in turn give an indication to the interception window a defending night fighter had. The Mosquito had an unusually high cruise speed.
As to tactics, that is an interesting subject. There was more skill in the stalking and counter stalking than you seem to indicate. It wasn't just blind luck.
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Ya, I agree, I was just generalising.
Its not like one can say "speed means nothing" because then we would still see Sopwith Camels in the RAF :), but I just meant that in regards to night fighters, top speed was not as big of an issue as day fighter combat, where you go "flat out" upon making contact, so a night fighter might do 400mph tops instead of 360mph, but that sort of difference does not always result in a big tactical detriment for the slower fighter. Of course, it doesnt ever hurt to be fast and have a good climberate....I cant think of a night fighter pilot saying "give me a slow plane", that would be silly. Im sure they all appreciated the faster designs as they got them.
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Yah, rate of acceleration is perhaps the more relevant issue. How fast you get from 350 to 400 when attacked. Break of from an attacker.