Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JB82 on April 17, 2005, 09:54:37 AM
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I propose that when you do enough damage to a enemy plane that he is visibly on fire or missing a wing and a countrymen insist on fireing at your kill that your countrymen be treated as a killshooter.
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I generally pull off a damaged enemy if I see damage like
that, but I've also seen zekes fly for over a minute burning like
a torch firing all over the place. So I'm thinking, no killshooter...
next time just finish it.
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I propose that you laugh at him for being so desperate for a kill that he has to get it this way. Then switch sides and hunt him down if it bothers you so much.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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It can get anoying if you let it. Heres my take.
1)On fire does not mean out of combat in all cases. If the enemy is nowhere near anyone else and poses no danger, then killing him is uncalled for, but in a furball, the flamer may have a minute or two in which he is still a threat...so shoot him for gods sakes!
2) Missing part of a wing may not mean dead. If your saddled up on him sure...but Ive landed pleanty of damaged birds.
3) Missing a whole wing, or flopping helplessly in a flat spin is dead.
4) Engine dead, plane dead, inless again, in a big furball and still a threat.
5) Its not stealing when your in combat manuevers with an enemy unless you are directly on their six at 200 yards. I much prefer you help me kill the enemy plane 10 times, than be 'polite' one time when it all looks good from above, but Im running low on E and about to fall out of the manuevers and get killed.
Whenever I do leathal damage to a plane in a furball, I try and call out 'spit dead' or 'La7 going down' This gives the gentle reminder to all would be kill stealers and does something much better, it lets everyone else know they dont have worry about that particular plane. One thing that happens to us all is losing sight of one of 3 enemy planes, and spending valuable seconds making sure he isnt in your blind spot. Those that intensionally steal kills are either not informed or not part of the overal community. The uninformed will catch on pretty quick....the jerk will, whether they know it or not, lose out much more in the long run. There are several people I dont ever help or warn...
viva la KARMA!
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I also love the whole on the NMY 6 while your fellow countryman is behind you shooting over your shoulder :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by JB82
I propose that when you do enough damage to a enemy plane that he is visibly on fire or missing a wing and a countrymen insist on fireing at your kill that your countrymen be treated as a killshooter.
Get over it man. Next time just make sure you shoot him untill he goes boom. Two threads on this sissyass crying is just getting lame.
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In the past I have seen a few planes burning badly that continue flying for enough time to down another friendly or 2. A few days ago I lit a guy up and as he passed off my right the flames went out and he continued on his way.
Bottom line is if it still flys put more rounds into it.
Just my $.02.
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Originally posted by ALF
Whenever I do leathal damage to a plane in a furball, I try and call out 'spit dead' or 'La7 going down' This gives the gentle reminder to all would be kill stealers and does something much better, it lets everyone else know they dont have worry about that particular plane.
Don't you just love it when they shout "Spit dead, dont you dear shoot at it" and 10 seconds later that "dead spit" is on your 6 fireing it guns at you.
Happend to me more than once, and yes, no 6 call from the guy who was so worried off kill stealers. :lol
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Didnt you already start a thread somewhere else on this?
When the plane goes "Poof" or "splat"
thats when he's dead.
A flaming plane isnt as good as dead by a longshot.
I've even managed to land flaming planes.
A plane with part of his wing missing isnt dead either.
I've managed to land those too.
Now an entire wing, or the entire tail is another story.
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>>4) Engine dead, plane dead, inless again, in a big furball and still a threat.<<
I don't agree with this at all, it kinda fits with claiming a kill befire it is quite done. I have experienced this first hand:
one night about a year and a half ago, Shane was being chased by a conga line of Rooks. As I approached them low he dives at me; he is smoking and rooks are hard on him; one rook calls out "the spit is dead" so, I begin a climb for alt; next thing I know Shane shoots me in the face as he is diving to certain death. I say wtf! to the Rook who claimed the kill; Shane comes on CH1 and gets a good laugh :)
The MA has become filled with kill mongers and score potatos who will try anything, to include stealing kills, claiming kills, and complaining about both. In the MA you hafta pick your target, and work to kill it; unfortunately you have to use SA for nme and countrymen as well :( same as it ever was.
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By way of update, I'm posting to get something off my chest; it's an aspect of the game which is uncalled for and unnecessary but, there are way too many who do it.
I'm on the 6 of an nme spit this past Friday night, am gaining from 400 yds to within 200 yds, and plinking the guy. I worked him to this position where he has no options and will eventually die.
In this situation, it is not up to me to watch my 6 for friendly a/c but, it happened that I needed to ;(
This twit in an F4U C dives down from outerspace and starts shooting over my shoulder at my prey, he isn't getting any hits, I am. He climbs up and dives down directly in front of me as I am shooting; too late for me, I take hits meant for my prey and rupture my gas tank; I leak gas and hafta break off and head back to base; which is under attack and the twit who flew in front of me to steal the kill, could have made his dweeby arse useful by defending our base.
I realize everyone is a paying customer in this game but, surely it's got to be important to some of these twits to have some honor, pride and some idea of fairplay; hell I didnt even get an apology from the ass.
You see it's this kind of thing that makes for bad feelings between participants and members of the community. I know the kind of things I'd like to see among us can't be legislated so, I'm gonna handle this in my own way, unfortunately it won't have any positive effects for the sense of community this game ought to have.
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I used to have a policy of letting burning aircraft go. That all changed when one turned around and put some bullets into me. New policy is to only let planes go which are totally uncontrollable, like missing an entire wign or tail section.
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Originally posted by Don
By way of update, I'm posting to get something off my chest; it's an aspect of the game which is uncalled for and unnecessary but, there are way too many who do it.
This twit in an F4U C dives down from outerspace and starts shooting over my shoulder at my prey, he isn't getting any hits, I am. He climbs up and dives down directly in front of me as I am shooting; too late for me, I take hits meant for my prey and rupture my gas tank;
I realize everyone is a paying customer in this game but, surely it's got to be important to some of these twits to have some honor, pride and some idea of fairplay; hell I didnt even get an apology from the ass.
You see it's this kind of thing that makes for bad feelings between participants and members of the community. I know the kind of things I'd like to see among us can't be legislated so, I'm gonna handle this in my own way, unfortunately it won't have any positive effects for the sense of community this game ought to have.
I have tryed to at least tell the guy, if I am faster or gaining and he isn't, that I am below him, passing on his left or his right etc...so I don't pop out infront suddenly and he not know I was there. Some just do not have the courtesy to do such a thing though Strider. :( and as you said there is alot who simply want the kill regardless of the after effect of it all, no respect for there countryman, is a first to the flag wins type of game to alot of the newer players. gameplay changes as with the changing of the leaves..........( or changing of the guard...that would of worked too )
TC
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TC, I know of you and who you are, we were adversaries back in the AW days, things weren't this way but, they are now. Of course we had our share of twits hehe, but we had ways of handling them throughout all of the countries, as a community. Now all I feel I can do is complain and take matters into my own hands; and I will.
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Originally posted by JB82
I propose that when you do enough damage to a enemy plane that he is visibly on fire or missing a wing and a countrymen insist on fireing at your kill that your countrymen be treated as a killshooter.
I was at V55 or V199 last night. And somebody lit up a low bomber. I think it was one of the JB's that did it. I didn't fire. (was in an ack) afraid somebody would accuse me of kill stealing. I kept thinking his wing would come off any second. It did. Just a second after he released his bombs. He took out the VH. I won't wait the next time.
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>>I kept thinking his wing would come off any second. It did. Just a second after he released his bombs. He took out the VH. I won't wait the next time.<<
Thats a different situation Lye-El and you at least attempted to avoid doing something crappy, next time you should make sure the guy is dead; from what I have experienced, the guy in the a/c will have gotten the kill anyway, even if you make sure of it while in a manned ack. This is different than the dweeb I wrote about who intended to steal the kill, or the guy who wanted to preserve "his kill" by calling it out before he finished the guy.
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snaking kills is a fine art..if not done properly you waste your ammo load.
Morally wrong?...yes.
Fun?...depends on who from..sometimes very satisfying.:lol
PS. I've learned in this game if it doesnt go "boom" then its not dead and has a chance to rtb.
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Its all too often that when in combat you oppose your enemy but compete with your ally.
There are some ac that continue to be viably offensive some time after they have incurred a pretty feroucious fire. The P38 is an example.
I think we all get annoyed when we see a player chase down a spiraling wingless ac trying to extract the explosion and possibly the "kill".
I think these guys generally do learn that they are displaying very child like game play tendancies and eventually will mature to enjoy the more skill related benefits the game brings.
The odd polite word over range can ususally help speed the process.
Cherry picking from an existing bloodless combat is not so cut and dry IMO.
I have been annoyed when tracers start coming past my shoulder after I have spent what seems like minutes getting my foe to this point.
I also have realised that on some occasions "I really should have have despatched this enemy already" and maybe folk (who have witnessed my foe get a couple of kills despite me stuck to his 6) have lost a little patience with me.
Sometimes I know I'm in trouble.................that I have chosen the wrong fight..........and am quite happy to have my enemy removed before he removes me.
Communication would solve alot of this..........its good to talk.
re a technical fix?
A big step would be to mimick WW2 actuality and award partial kills.
In AH2 it would be a little different.
> 66% of damage you get a kill.
> 33% but < 66% you get a partial kill (halving perks won)
< 33% you get an assist.
2 x a partial kill and you get a kill # added on landing.
This has one additional advantage.........its anti gang banging. There is a chance that none of the 20 folk chasing one poor sucker will end up with a kill. Infact they may all end up with only assists.
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As for stealing kills...
Most of the Pilots that do steal are new to the game. I remember when I couldn't follow a plane...had 16 fr per second and couldn't tell if a plane was reversing, turning or just had its stabilizer shot off. If it crossed my gunsite I shot. You have tunnel vision and the game seems like a million miles an hour.
As for experienced pilots doing it...well...I dont see it that much. One should ask a teammate if they need help before you engage in almost every situation....but then again...
In a big furball or capped base defense there is no time to saddle up...run and shoot is the name of the game... and I defer to the previous statement...if it crosses my gunsite...:aok
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I would think that HiTech could come up with a series of missing flight surface combinations that would deem the plane unflyable. If those combinations are met, then treat shooting at a disabled plane as a killshooter..
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Ya know, if more guys approached this situation with a loose duece wingman tactic they'd be surprised at how many kills they actually get out of it.
Drop down behind and above your countryman, let him know you are there and you have his 6 covered.
If it looks like he is losing the advantage on the bandit, call out "{callsign} break off and recover, I'm on him", then press the offensive on the bandit.
A good countryman will regain his E and take up the wingman position covering your six.
You may get the kill you may not. If you both work this someone will get the kill and that is the ultimate goal isn't it?
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I rarely have a guy try and steal a kill from me, and when they try I don't think much of it and here's why. I don't care if a guy joins in on the fight, and if he has the oportunity to get the kill then I say take it. As for shooting at planes missing wings or something I don't think I have ever lost a kill to one of those guys. Like Colt said, they tend to be new and not very good shots. Even if they do get some bullets into the target, odds are I put in more. Just from my own experiences, a successful kill steal is very rare.
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It seems Kill stealing is loosely defined as in the eyes of those who have had it done to them; the circumstances are different each time. However, the kind that seems to stick in everyones craw is the one done purposefully, and it IS NOTwhining when you get pissed about it. IMO it is the height of dweebery to swoop in when the work is done by another to take the kill earned by another. The one who does that is hard up for kills and doesn't care how he gets a kill. Here's another thought having to do with the damage model; if you are using regular mg's you may not get any a/c to go boom but, if you are using cannon it most likely will; that is one of the vagaries of this game. So, if you're in a furball make sure you are using a cannon equipped a/c, otherwise your hard earned kills will go to someone else, no matter how many BBz you put into a guy.
If the game makes it okay then it is technically not stealing, and all is fair. If this is the case, then we will have a lot more of it, and then I am sure there will be many more lame threads just like this one :D
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Originally posted by JB35
I also love the whole on the NMY 6 while your fellow countryman is behind you shooting over your shoulder :rolleyes:
If you've been on the guy for a while and feel the kill is yours then just quickly roll into your friendlys fire. Getting the killshooter in times like this is often more satisfying then the kill anyway. Usually the friendly will just knock off his aileron or something minor, but they get the message.
-p.
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Ok this has happened to me before. But heres my side of the story. If you guys read the other post about guys ditching at 200 MPH and no one getting the kill you'll hear a bit more. I've been in furballs over enemy airfields having a frendly get like a 38 to catch on fire only to have him ditch about 2 miles from the base and getting safly back to base. So after viewing this I decided to make those bishops pay lol, and finishing off a wounded bird to prevent a no kill ditch.
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I amn reading a book entitled "Wings of Gold" by Gerald Astor, following is an account as told to him by Lieutenant Charles Brewer, about a kill stealing situation:
"Upon getting into range of another fighter, as I was about to fire, a friendly F6F slid in front of me and took out the target. Had I started firing, he would have flown right into my tracers. Lucky guy...."
So we know kill stealing (as we call it) happened during WW2, and it was a dangerous proposition for those that did it. In AH no such penalties occur for the offender.
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Originally posted by Don
I amn reading a book entitled "Wings of Gold" by Gerald Astor, following is an account as told to him by Lieutenant Charles Brewer, about a kill stealing situation:
"Upon getting into range of another fighter, as I was about to fire, a friendly F6F slid in front of me and took out the target. Had I started firing, he would have flown right into my tracers. Lucky guy...."
So we know kill stealing (as we call it) happened during WW2, and it was a dangerous proposition for those that did it. In AH no such penalties occur for the offender.
Correct, the penalty is only or the offendee. If he slides in front of you while your fireing you get the killshooter damage.
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I've already learned not to get in someone's way. That being said there have been a few occasions now where I let a burning/one-winged/spiralling downard aircraft slip out of my sights only to have the same badly damaged plane head back into the furball.
I feel bad about taking someone's kill, yeah, but I feel even worse about watching another Bish disintegrate when I could've killed his killer...
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PS. I've learned in this game if it doesnt go "boom" then its not dead and has a chance to rtb.
Thats not an entirely true statement. Damage can be lethal w/o the target going *boom*.
If a plane is missing an entire wing (not just part of one), he is going nowhere but down. If a plane is missing both horizontal stabilizers or his vertical stabilizer, or all 3, he is going nowhere but down.
If a plane is on fire do you shoot till he explodes? Depends on the situation. Bombers that are on fire but not near their drop point, no need to explode them. A Zero in a furball on fire? Yeah, shoot that thing till it goes down. Zero's can burn for days it seems like heh.
Last night I was in a manned ack (forget which base) and friendlies were on the 6 of a Knight F6F, one of them shot the right wing off the F6F but the guns in his left wing were still firing at my gun emplacement so I exploded him.
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Originally posted by Arcades057
I've already learned not to get in someone's way. That being said there have been a few occasions now where I let a burning/one-winged/spiralling downard aircraft slip out of my sights only to have the same badly damaged plane head back into the furball.
I feel bad about taking someone's kill, yeah, but I feel even worse about watching another Bish disintegrate when I could've killed his killer...
I never assume he dead unless the bandit is falling completely uncontrolable. I don't ussually worry about the kill steal as I've lit up planes that looked entirely undamaged only to be given an assist. So if I take out a heavily damaged plane to keep it from killing a countryman and I get the kill, Oh well. I say that's karma paying me back for all those assists.
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With today's planes that can fly for a period of time ... while on fire ... they will die to my guns if given the chance ... you shoulda finished him off. With that, more often than not, the guy that did cause the fire does get the kill, I get the assist, so I don't feel that bad.
Simple solutuion ... well maybe ...
If(current damage >= catastrophic damage) then
{
turn off the damaged planes guns
stop collecting damage info
award damage to pilot that caused the most damage
}
At this point the whole friggin' air force could unload on him ... make him explode ... whatever ... only the original pilot that cause the most damage, that eventually was the root cause of the catastrophic damage, gets the kill.
catastrophic damage = missing wing(s), missing empanage, missing elevator(s) ... plane will just not fly and is destined to meet mother earth no matter what you try to do.
turn off damaged planes guns ... only in a game would someone in this position even think of firing guns hoping to hit something. Just too gamey for me. Your dead or gonna be dead if you don't bail ... no time to shoot.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Simple solutuion ... well maybe ...
If(current damage >= catastrophic damage) then
{
turn off the damaged planes guns
stop collecting damage info
award damage to pilot that caused the most damage
}
I pretty sure Pyro or somebody else from HTC already said what he did or want to do that.
Originally posted by SlapShot
catastrophic damage = ... missing elevator(s) ...
Do you joke? You can easy run away w/o every control surfaces and land in safe (if you in more faster plane of course and with piece of luck).
Catastrophic damage must be missing whole wing or tail (both horizontal and vertical stabs) only.
btw, i dont see the problems with kill stealing at all. That is very rare thing in my AH practice in contrast to WarBirds.
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Originally posted by Oleg
>>Originally posted by SlapShot
catastrophic damage = ... missing elevator(s) ... <<
Do you joke? You can easy run away w/o every control surfaces and land in safe (if you in more faster plane of course and with piece of luck).
Catastrophic damage must be missing whole wing or tail (both horizontal and vertical stabs) only.
You can keep flying controllably without your elevator(s)? I am not talking about just one of two, but having no elevator control at all? If so, I'd love to learn that one.
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I have landed a f6f without elevators alrdy. I had to use all throttle control to start the decent.
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Originally posted by Blammo
You can keep flying controllably without your elevator(s)? I am not talking about just one of two, but having no elevator control at all? If so, I'd love to learn that one.
Yes, its possible - you can use rudder and ailerons instead. Dont sure if trims still work in that case, seems they do.
Of course, you will completely lose manoeuvrability.
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Catastrophic damage must be missing whole wing or tail (both horizontal and vertical stabs) only.
Lose either both Horizontal stabs OR the vertical stab and you are going down....dont need to lose all three for catastrophic damage.
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I give any person who is flying on my side in a furball permission to shoot at any plane I am fighting at anytime, all the time without fail. Get him down and out of our hair. move on to the next.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Lose either both Horizontal stabs OR the vertical stab and you are going down....dont need to lose all three for catastrophic damage.
Dont sure about horizontal stabs, but flight w/o vertical stab is possible. May be not for all planes and not in every cases and it is hard enough especially at landing, but it still possible.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Lose either both Horizontal stabs OR the vertical stab and you are going down....dont need to lose all three for catastrophic damage.
Yep, I've landed many times in many planes with no rudder-
Missing ele's is another matter:D
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Chased down an La7 last night, using up a fair amount of my ammo to hit him. Finally got him a couple times, saw tracers flying to my right so I banked, wit WEP, dove... only to see a countryman snag the kill--I didn't even get the assist.
Flew a pony for about thirty minutes to get alt to hit an enemy field, chased a con to the ground, pursued him for a few, got some nice hit sprites and smoked him... Another countryman snagged the kill--got an assist this time.
Went after a formation of B-24s from low, hit sprites and had to pull off after smoking the lead. Another Bish moved in and clipped the three... No assist.
Flew for 20-30 minutes last night without seeing a con so I bailed, only to get the message "@#$%^* shot you down."
No ping, no con nearby--hadn't even seen one the whole flight.
Flying out of a high alt Bish field and spied a Goony. Went toward him, laughing, and he crashed into the cliff. I got the kill. I didn't fire on him, I wasn't closer than 3k and there was another Bish on his six, yet I got the kill.
Granted, I am a bit new here, but the kill recording system--a vanity, I know--seems a bit off.
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Originally posted by JB82
I propose that when you do enough damage to a enemy plane that he is visibly on fire or missing a wing and a countrymen insist on fireing at your kill that your countrymen be treated as a killshooter.
When I was still in Knitwitlandia, there was a flight I was on where the same guy tried to steal my kill twice.
The first time I was fighting a Spitfire V and managed to blow his tail off in a hard fought low speed turn fight. As the Spitfire V tumbles down to the ground, this mighty hero of Knitwitlandia comes swooping down on the Spitfire. On one of its tumble rotations, the pilot in the Spitfire V fires off his guns and actually nails the mighty hero of Knitwitlandia and blows him up. Not to be thwarted in his quest to steal a kill, our mighty hero of Knitlandia takes off again and soon finds himself on the wrong end of another Spitfires guns. Tired of hearing his screams and pleas for help, I come to the rescue of our valiant hero and clear the Spitfire from his six. As the Spitfire gently floats down to the ground, our valiant hero then pulls up into a loop and swoops down on the poor Spitfire and promptly overshoots and augers into the side of the mountain. Thus ended his quest on the mountain side of A1.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by MwDogg
I have landed a f6f without elevators alrdy. I had to use all throttle control to start the decent.
What I really meant to say was "horizontal stabs" ... once those are gone, you ain't going anywhere but DOWN.
I have landed a plane without the vertical stab. T'was tricky but it can be done.
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I am all for the stealing of kills.
I promote it, practice it, and cherish it.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
What I really meant to say was "horizontal stabs" ... once those are gone, you ain't going anywhere but DOWN.
I have landed a plane without the vertical stab. T'was tricky but it can be done.
How?
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>>Granted, I am a bit new here, but the kill recording system--a vanity, I know--seems a bit off.<<
Arcade:
Based on what you describe, I say you are dead on the money :(
Geez! I have had nights like that and came away convinced that something smelled like overcooked pork in the game :(
But, other nights are very different...go figger
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Came across someone this morning who thinks is justified to follow a dewinged plane all the way down because he shot at it first. I guess ignore the fact that all the time he was behind it, he allowed it to make a pass on me, and allowed it to live long enough for me to evade, reverse, follow a hard 180 turn left, follow a 270 turn right, take 3 adjustment shots, and 1 fire for effect burst.
I calmly say "hey now" as I watch him off my right follow the enemy missing its entire right wing, spraying away at it as it tumbles to the ground. And the idiot answers with a huffy"yea because you tried to steal my kill".
My apoligies to all the bishop at 32 that my tirade may have annoyed while I told this player exactly what I thought of them.
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Originally posted by Don
By way of update, I'm posting to get something off my chest; it's an aspect of the game which is uncalled for and unnecessary but, there are way too many who do it.
I'm on the 6 of an nme spit this past Friday night, am gaining from 400 yds to within 200 yds, and plinking the guy. I worked him to this position where he has no options and will eventually die.
In this situation, it is not up to me to watch my 6 for friendly a/c but, it happened that I needed to ;(
This twit in an F4U C dives down from outerspace and starts shooting over my shoulder at my prey, he isn't getting any hits, I am. He climbs up and dives down directly in front of me as I am shooting; too late for me, I take hits meant for my prey and rupture my gas tank; I leak gas and hafta break off and head back to base; which is under attack and the twit who flew in front of me to steal the kill, could have made his dweeby arse useful by defending our base.
I realize everyone is a paying customer in this game but, surely it's got to be important to some of these twits to have some honor, pride and some idea of fairplay; hell I didnt even get an apology from the ass.
You see it's this kind of thing that makes for bad feelings between participants and members of the community. I know the kind of things I'd like to see among us can't be legislated so, I'm gonna handle this in my own way, unfortunately it won't have any positive effects for the sense of community this game ought to have.
This where the "killshooter" barrel roll comes in....works wonders :)
However, the whole thread is even lamer...you cant "steal" something the other guy doesn't own. How many times to you get kill while RTB...or swoop in and light up what appears to be a perfectly fine plane and get an assist.
If it's in the air and in my sights I'm gonna pop a couple of rounds into it...just that simple...
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Originally posted by humble
This where the "killshooter" barrel roll comes in....works wonders :)
However, the whole thread is even lamer...you cant "steal" something the other guy doesn't own. How many times to you get kill while RTB...or swoop in and light up what appears to be a perfectly fine plane and get an assist.
If it's in the air and in my sights I'm gonna pop a couple of rounds into it...just that simple...
Agree to a point. BUT, if a plane is missing an entire wing or tail and flopping helplessly to the ground, what is the point of chasing it down and shooting at it? All this is is a cheap, dweebish attempt to get an easy kill. Most times they won't get the kill so it amazes me why they keep on trying.
Any plane that can still maneuver is a valid taget, no doubt about that. I will even acknowledge to the other pilot when I think they did the real damage if I know who they are.
It just ain't worth gettin' all jacked up about.
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Clifra I dont disagree with you...but thats the 1%...the other 99% the plane is still flying and fighting after some bozo announced "spitty going down"...what he ment is "I hit the spitty & something fell off"...
In the end it evens out. Every once in awhile I'll run down a wounded bird and get the kill when I think I'm just cleaning garbage up for a friend or squaddie....but then again you get the breaks also. I once ran a jabo hop in a Jug (6 gun load out)....made 4 passes 2 1000's togeather on VH, 500 on radar and 2 rocket attacks on troops....spraying as I went....now even a jug gets pinged up a bit...so I was missing a elevator and aerlion and rudder and decided it was better to scoot then shoot. As I'm heading back to base I get 4 kills that trickle in 1 at a time...no clue if they from bomb or rocket damage or the spray and pray. Got a couple of whines on cty channel "who got the kill on the XXX"....
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Didn't read the whole thread so forgive any redundency but...
I've had many of my kills stolen, it comes with the squad(no it's not just a running joke lol). I think it just comes down to your own personal veiwpoint for a "downed" aircraft. While most would say wing/tail totally gone others think if you set it on fire or take off 1/2 a wing it's "dead". I personally have found this not to be true at all. If I see a burning plane, I shoot it. 1/2 a wing is a bit fuzzier. If I see 1 I follow it, if it can maintain controll and goes in for a ditch/runs I shoot it, if not I keep an eye on it till it explodes. Whenever I set an aircraft on fire I announce it as quickly as possible and tell them to shoot it if they can. A 1/2 winged aircraft is pretty simple to finish off and I never have any problems with that. If however a guy sees a plane that I took 1/2 the wing off running home and he nails it, I'm fine with it even if I was still after it and gonna finish it. That's just the way the MA is. If I see a guy blatantly shooting a wingless airplane, I admit I get a little upset, but in the end I just think how sad it is he has to do that. In conclusion I think DREDIOCK said it best when he said it's not dead till it goes poof.
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IIRC, according to HTC the "judgement" is dealt out in the way that the guy that records most damage on the particular target is determined as the person who shot it down.
The alternative method to this is determining kills by who caused destruction of vital structural surfaces absolutely required for flight. Once the particular destruction of certain flight surface occurs, all further damage are neglected in the 'count'. Ie) once a plane loses a wing, someone else can come by and shoot the crap out of it and take it apart, but it won't count as anything.
The pros of this alternative is that the person who dealt the final blow to the target, so it cannot maintain flight any longer, will be determined as the person who shot it down - as it would in real life. The "vital surfaces" that are destroyed may be;
a) both H-stabs destroyed
b) V-stab destroyed (both V-stabs, in case of the P-38s and simular craft)
c) one complete wing destroyed(since some planes can fly with half-wing, only the destruction of one, full wing should count)
d) caused one fuel tank to ignite
The cons of this alternative is that;
a) somebody could deal 99% of damage required to kill one of those 'vital surfaces', and yet, someone else might do the last piece of straw which breaks the back. This is problematic in multi-plane chases, when 3~4 friendlies chase one target. Someone could do 99% of damage, but the people who spray over his shoulder has a good chance of getting the kill - thus, this method might promote shoulder-shooting and other simular annoyances.
b) this method cannot account for other 'shotdown' situations such as augers or ditches. Since an augered target basically killed himself, no kills will be awarded to a person who might be at least partially responsible for the incident.
ie.: when you shoot at a Mustang and rip out half-a wing... the Mustang can still retain flight with one and one-half a wing. You go in for the kill, the Mustang tries to maneuver, and he spins augers. This will not be counted as a kill for anyone.
ie2.: what happens if someone deems his plane is flyable, but too much damaged for further combat, and then decides to bail? In reality, if a plane is flying, but the pilot is forced to bail out due to damage and fear of death, the guy who caused it would be awarded a kill. In this case, the current method would be much better.
Would this alternative make more sense?
Would its cons weigh heavier than the cons with the current method?
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In the end I wouldn't change it. Just take the good with the bad and when someone does it..take a deep breath:)
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kill stealing is a fine art that I try to exercise at all costs.
Actually I never assume the a/c is 'ded' untill it either explodes or gravity takes it to mother earth. It's too easy to get away with 30% of the plane missing and land back at base.
So to those that practice this art !
To those that cry about it....get more or bigger bullets.
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I too am a proponent of the "catastrophic" scenario. The object of this notion is to stop scoring hits on the target at this point and whoever, at the point of "catastrophic" failure, has the most amout of points, is awarded the kill.
As far as your cons ...
a) somebody could deal 99% of damage required to kill one of those 'vital surfaces', and yet, someone else might do the last piece of straw which breaks the back. This is problematic in multi-plane chases, when 3~4 friendlies chase one target. Someone could do 99% of damage, but the people who spray over his shoulder has a good chance of getting the kill - thus, this method might promote shoulder-shooting and other simular annoyances.
If someone did deal 99% of the damage and the plane was still flyable, once the "catastrophic" blow is dealt scoring is halted. At this point, I don't think that it would outweigh the 99% therefore the kill would be credited to the right person.
b) this method cannot account for other 'shotdown' situations such as augers or ditches. Since an augered target basically killed himself, no kills will be awarded to a person who might be at least partially responsible for the incident.
I would leave the "proximity" code in place. If someone had landed at least one bullet on the augering/ditching plane, that person would be awarded the kill ... otherwise the proximity code determine who is awarded the kill.
ie.: when you shoot at a Mustang and rip out half-a wing... the Mustang can still retain flight with one and one-half a wing. You go in for the kill, the Mustang tries to maneuver, and he spins augers. This will not be counted as a kill for anyone.
Again, whoever scored the most amount of points/hits prior to the maneuver kill or the "catastrophic" undoing of the P-51, is awarded the kill.
ie2.: what happens if someone deems his plane is flyable, but too much damaged for further combat, and then decides to bail? In reality, if a plane is flying, but the pilot is forced to bail out due to damage and fear of death, the guy who caused it would be awarded a kill. In this case, the current method would be much better.
Same as above.
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This was the alternative I liked:
Originally posted by hitech
You can not award the kill at the time of damage. The outcome of the flight has still not been determined. The odds are he will crash and die,but that is not always the case.
But I have lost wings at times near ground and ended up with a ditch by luck.
What would be possible is that no more lethality points are tracked once certian componets fail. The plane could still be shot and more damage done, but no kill award tracking would be done, you still must stay living until the hit plane exits flight.
Been thinking about implementing this for a while, it just hasn't moved to the top of the list yet.
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Regarding the pros and cons and how things would have to be done: I am fairly sure that the coding of all this is pretty well within Hitech's abilities (or whoever happens to coad it). Having read through the older damage/kill awarding posts, I never got the distinct impression that the guy who dealt the final 1% of damage to trigger the catastrophic failure would get the kill.
While I do not enjoy killstealers, or people who will try to killshoot to get in position to attempt the steal, I see no reason to rush to change the coading, and no reason to blow up on range. There are subtler ways to seek revenge, and I enjoy them.