Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Big G on April 17, 2005, 05:21:57 PM
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What's the general word on which one suits AHII better? Is there one in particular that is widely used ? Or is it down to personal preference?
Cheers
Big G
PS You can add microphones (Radio) to the question too.
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This is alot personal preference, what you used and liked or hated in the past and your budget, of course. You can go from joystick only to full HOTAS setup.
[ Hands On Throttle And Stick ]
Personally I like CH gear, mine is now 7+ yeras old and I finally think it's wearing out some. CH can be pricey though but will stand the test of time. An important consideration is how the stick fits your hand. You want it to be comfortable and fit your hand and you don't want to be reaching for buttons.
Far as mics and earphpones, I bought a Plantronics headset/mic combo for $20 on sale awhile back. Headset/mic combos are definately the way to go if your using AHVoice often.
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Well its a lot of /personal preference/what is affordable.....Microsoft made some good sticks but stoped making them......Saitek makes some good sticks at a resonable price....in my opinion logiteck sticks are "you get less than what you pay for".....they are junk......CH products seem to be the top of the line but you need to have the yoke and peddles both and there can be a bit of a learnig curve...plus they can be pretty pricey....
Myself I have the Saitek Cyborg Evo and love it....usualy can find them for about less than 50 bucks
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I did a lot of research on the subject of HOTAS before I paid the "big bucks" for my CH gear. Hear is what I found.
1. I owned (still do) an X45. Nice gear, good price. Has many positives especially now that the drivers and software are stable. I did not like the stick gimble centering system. It had a distinctive drop at the center that I found distracting. The throttle is outstanding, I liked it better than my Ch throttle. Rudder control takes some getting used to. I would recommend pedals along with an X45 if you can.
2. I researched the Cougar quite extensively. On cost it is on par with the CH gear. What I found though is that they were not available in large quantities and that a lot of owners spent a considerable amount of money customizing them. They are known for a very strong stick spring which for me put it out of the question due to a bad right elbow. Replacing the stick gimble and pots was what most owners were modifying. Otherwise it rates quite well.
3. CH, I finally settled on CH. I was actually convinced by a Cougar user who recommended it for me due to my elbow problem. So far I am quite happy with it. All controls are smooth and responsive. The stick does have a very light spring which may be a problem for some people. For me it was perfect. It is very easily programmable but can also be used in AH without any additional programming. The rudder is a straight slider type as apposed to the curved path like the X45 and the Cougar. This took some getting used to. I do miss my roteries but have learned to do without them. Pedals are great, I would recomend them with any setup.
On pedals: for me they are essential. I have never used a twisty stick so can't really speak on them. The under throttle rocker on the Saitek just fealt odd to me and did not give good control, plus I broke the cheezy little spring on it and had to replace it with my own design. I've seen CH pedals as low as $40.00 on eBay so cost is not a major factor.
If money is an object I would go with an X45/X50. they are the best gear for the lowest cost. If your considering a professional HOTAS I highly recomend the CH gear. If the stick spring is too light for your taste it can be easily modified at little additional cost (though opening the stick voids the warranty). If your a serious die hard you could go with the Cougar though some of the gimble modifications that most user have done can run up to $400-$700 making this a very large investment.
Visit the support boards for any gear you are considering. they are a wealth of information and the folks posting there will give you honest info. Even, as in my case, recomending a competing product if it fits your situation.
Hope this helps.
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I don't think you need to spend a mint to get something that will work for AH. At a minimum, I'd look for a stick with a hat, some sort of throttle (slider or wheel) and make it a twisty stick if you don't plan to purchase rudder pedals. You can still find some good deals on Microsoft sticks on eBay and such, I know some people have picked those up. Otherwise, a Saitek or Logitech stick have had mixed success, some people swear by them, others at them. Guess it depends on the expectation you have and the amount you intend to use it.
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until you figure out whether or not you going to be in AH2 for the long haul don't go blowing alot of money for a full HOTAS set up. get a cheap 25 to 30 dollar stick and see if you think you will stick around for awhile. Then if you decide you going to be a lifetime addict like the rest of us. Go full bore and purchase a CH setup. the CH USB fighter stick comes with a roatary throttle on the base so you can get by with it and the USB pro pedals from CH. later on you can get the CH Pro throttle USB.
http://www.provantage.com offers the best prices currently for CH gear.
you can usually purchase the full CH USB HOTAS set fiter stick, throttle, pedals for under $300 shipping included unless you live in a remote area.....
good luck and welcome to Aces High
( my current analog CH gear was bought in 1996/97 and is still performing great with minor fixes in the last cple of years)
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Microsoft Sidewinder Pro 2,best damn stick ever made.
Handz down!:aok
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I've seen a lot of people say good things about the MS Sidewinder sticks. If there's a "Bookman's" type store near you (used books, cds, nintendo's etc...) they usually have a couple of them for about $15.00. The last time I looked, the Bookman's near me had 2 of the MS Sidewinders, and a whole pile of Logitech stuff. (Should tell you about Logitech...)
Myself, I started out with a cheap stick that had a throttle wheel on it, then after knowing that I liked the game, went with a Saitek X45 (Joystick + seperate Throttle control) and CH Pro Peddals.
If you have a chance, try different set-ups that people have before you buy. For example, the X45 feels like it was made for my hand - while other people swear that it's too small for them.
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I have been through a lot of sticks; loved the ms precision pro's, but most people report a large amount of nose bounce. I had same problem -- could never tweek all the bounce out. Switched to saitek x45, very clean. x45's problem was the centering mechanism, which for me caused some issues with small adjustements around centering -- thus enter the x52. So far the x52 performs better than the x45, but the x45 was far superior as far as ergonomics and button placement/pressure. When my x52 dies i suspect i will go the full on ch route (which means if i would have just spent the 300 bucks up front, i wouldn't be out as much cash). The ch pedals are far superior to twisty rudders and especially the x45 rocker.
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I use a CH USB setup (stick, throttle and pedals). I recommend a Combatstick 568, which offers a larger base and stronger springs.
Much has been said about CH gear, so I'll offer another alternative. For the new player, to avoid a major investment before knowing how serious you'll get about these types of games. You can make due with two inexpensive joysticks. I recommend USB type sticks for smooth operation.
One stick is used for flight control (the right hand stick for right handed people). This can be any stick of your choosing with an assortment of buttons and hat switches. The buttons should be located on the stick instead of the base. A built in throttle is not required.
The other stick can be simple, with buttons as available. But it must have axis switches to disable the centering springs, a seperate switch for each axis. (If one cannot be found, a person could open it up and disable the Y centering spring.)
The Y axis (the up/down motion) centering spring is switched off to stay where you place it, so it can be used as a throttle.
The X axis (sideways motion) centering spring is left engaged, so it will return to center. This axis is used for your rudder.
For many, this will work fine for a permament setup, and your cost $50 or less.
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Minimum requirements for a stick suggestion...
8-way hat for views
As many programmable buttons as you can get. many total 12 buttons.
Twist grip rudder pedals
Minimum throttle on base of stick
If you look for a stick with these minimums you will find them in the $25-30 price range. This is not the high end equipment but will get you up and running and you will be able to see whats going on. :)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Go full bore and purchase a CH setup. the CH USB fighter stick comes with a roatary throttle on the base so you can get by with it and the USB pro pedals from CH. later on you can get the CH Pro throttle USB.
http://www.provantage.com offers the best prices currently for CH gear.
you can usually purchase the full CH USB HOTAS set fiter stick, throttle, pedals for under $300 shipping included unless you live in a remote area.....
good luck and welcome to Aces High
( my current analog CH gear was bought in 1996/97 and is still performing great with minor fixes in the last cple of years)
I went from analog CH Combatstick and pedals to USB Combatstick and Pro Pedals. The programmability of the other switches makes a big difference when flying the P51B, P-38, and any of the 109s that require trimming to get out of compression or improving nose-up control.
I got my CH USB gear thru ProVantage.Com, too. Best prices. They charge a bit more for shipping but I got my stuff literally the next day even tho I had paid for regular shipping.
Once you go CH, you won't go back.
Headset I'm using is a LogiTech "behind the head" design with bendable mic coming out of the left earpiece. Volume control is on the wire from the PC, for easy adjustment. Works great, no complaints, and this is the third mic set I've gone thru (#1 was a cheapo CompUSA house brand, #2 was scratch built using a Dell mic, Walkman headphones, and a straw, and this is #3.)
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Gofaster, it looks like you chose a nice setup. I, too, use CH.
I think Big G might be looking for a low cost choice to see how he likes the game first before plopping down $300.
You gotta remember it normally takes em two-three weeks to get hooked. :)
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Originally posted by Big G
PS You can add microphones (Radio) to the question too.
since noone has addressed this part yet i will....
you can get headphones, but if they are cheap the mic will sound TERRIBLE to others in game.
i suggest a decent "pedastal" mic like this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6461722&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01056&id=1077628230553
it will give the best sound, and if you need headphones to keep the sound private go to a radio shack and get these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F003%5F004%5F000&product%5Fid=33%2D1221
radio shack headphones are actually made by Koss, though "branded" to be generic, they rock, and give MUCH better base response than any headset you will ever find.
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Thanks for that nugget on Radio Shack and Koss headphones 73.
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Originally posted by JB73
you can get headphones, but if they are cheap the mic will sound TERRIBLE to others in game.
i suggest a decent "pedastal" mic like this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6461722&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01056&id=1077628230553
it will give the best sound, and if you need headphones to keep the sound private go to a radio shack and get these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F003%5F004%5F000&product%5Fid=33%2D1221
radio shack headphones are actually made by Koss, though "branded" to be generic, they rock, and give MUCH better base response than any headset you will ever find.
I have come to find plantronics headphone/mic combo to be very good, and are not too expensive
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=26-106-014&DEPA=0 (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=26-106-014&DEPA=0)
but everyone has their own view:)
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Radio Shack headphones with mic combo 19.99$
for an extra 5.99$ you get the lifetime warranty
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One problem I had when using a pedastal mic was that it picked up magnetic/electronic interference from my monitor, PC, and television.
Here's the set I'm using now, and it works just dandy.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008ZPJQ/qid=1114026010/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/002-0870745-8722449
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Originally posted by 1Klink
Radio Shack headphones with mic combo 19.99$
for an extra 5.99$ you get the lifetime warranty
but like i said, that mic sounds like **** to the people you are talking to in game...
every hear one of those super distorted voices in game that sounds like a telephone with a blown speaker? thats from cheap headset mic's (paired with crummy sound card sometimes).
try recording your own voice in windows sound recorder, and see what it's like. is it as smooth as a real persons voice on a CD?
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there are plenty of headset mics that sound good.. i think its easier to get a good sounding headset mic than a pedestal mic because the headset one is much closer to your mouth, and less likely to pick up sounds from your desk/keyboard/room etc..
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WELLLL, i have been down the mic road -- here are my learnings:
- headset mics are much more convenient than pedestal
- noise cancelling mics cost a few more $$
- noise cancelling mics have lower signal to noise ratio but tend to pick up less background noise
- el cheapo non-noise cancelling mics give you stronger voice in-game, but also overdrive very easily
- check the signal to noise ratio before you buy -- i buy the cheapies with over 60db -- 46db mics don't have enough umphhh.
-if you get the cheapie with higher db, just make sure to not speak directly into it -- as a previous post said, check your sound in sound recorder.
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Fly with the Blackout Boys
"Fly Hard, Turn Hard, Blackout.....
Bockk
hehehe, sounds fun :aok
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Originally posted by bockko
Switched to saitek x45, very clean. x45's problem was the centering mechanism, which for me caused some issues with small adjustements around centering --
Was it sticky? Mine wants to stick at center. You want to move just a little bit and you have to apply more and more force until it suddenly breaks free at which point you are over corrected.
I have tried putting silicon spray on a Q-tip and wipeing it down but that only seems to last a few minutes and it's back to sticking again. Is there a better lube for plastic?
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my 2 cents...
Saitek Cyborg EVO is a great value as previously stated.
Adjustable to fit any hand size, twist rudder, large throttle on the base takes a week to adjust to. Extra buttons beside the top hat switch are perfect for flap controls. Expect it to last from 1 to 2 years depending on how much you fly.
Any others you consider try it before you buy it. X45 throttle for example was to big for my hand. Couldn't comfortably reach the rudder rocker with my thumb on the other buttons.
CH is surely the best overall, but I have a large boat payment..
$39.00 at bestbuy.
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I switched from flying lefty to righty so I could use a HOTAS a couple of years ago....big big difference. I've had a X-36, X-45 and now a X-52...the X-36 didnt really survive the transition...lets simply say after 6 months it was more JB weld than anything else:).
The X-45 went 18 months and I still have it...the main view hat is going and I lose views...so I got a X-52. IMO its a piece of junk compared to the X-45. The twisty stick rudder option in a stick with no resistance is just garbage IMO. So out come the pro pedals again...big issue there is you keep losing them in AH...basically need to plug everything in and configure and calibrate every time you fire up AH....
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Originally posted by Lye-El
I have tried putting silicon spray on a Q-tip and wipeing it down but that only seems to last a few minutes and it's back to sticking again. Is there a better lube for plastic?
Alternatively you can "delay" the onset of your stick movement to the control surfaces (elevators and ailerons). There are two additional sliders in settings.
The path in the game is esc/setup/controls/joystick/settings.
When you get there look at the dead band and damping sliders. They serve a couple of purposes. One is used to delay the onset of the pull on the joystick (damping).
The other is used to expand the center of the sticks movement and was used to take out spiking of sticks (dead band). This is the one you may want to try adjusting.
I'll explain:
Dead band "kills" the center area of the stick. This means you can slide the slider up then move the stick a bit before anything moves on the control surfaces (like elevators or ailerons)
Try this move the slider all way up to the top then move the stick. You can move it all around without the plans control surfaces moving. Move the slider back to the bottom. Now slide it up until you can move the stick past the hang up without control curface movement. You will find you can get past the "bad" spot and still have good use of your stick. :)
Let me know if you need more info.
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you could try white lithium grease..
it stinks.. but i doubt you'd have to use much and the smell goes away
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Originally posted by humble
I switched from flying lefty to righty so I could use a HOTAS a couple of years ago....big big difference. I've had a X-36, X-45 and now a X-52...the X-36 didnt really survive the transition...lets simply say after 6 months it was more JB weld than anything else:).
The X-45 went 18 months and I still have it...the main view hat is going and I lose views...so I got a X-52. IMO its a piece of junk compared to the X-45. The twisty stick rudder option in a stick with no resistance is just garbage IMO. So out come the pro pedals again...big issue there is you keep losing them in AH...basically need to plug everything in and configure and calibrate every time you fire up AH....
humble
with my last upgrade I had an issue with my peds dropping out and having to reset each time I started AH until I replaced my belkin 1.0 usb powered hub (old) with a new USB 2.0 powered hub:
http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?level=SK&id=657688
and I agree on the X52 - it must be geared towards little girl wrists. I went and found another X45 (circuit city online) after my experience with X52 from CompUsa
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Hmmm....
I plug them directly into MB...should be 2.0 drivers but I'll double check. I'm considering going out and getting a 2nd X-45 as well...just hate to leave the X-52 sitting their however....arghhhh:mad:
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Was it sticky? Mine wants to stick at center. You want to move just a little bit and you have to apply more and more force until it suddenly breaks free at which point you are over corrected.
I have tried putting silicon spray on a Q-tip and wipeing it down but that only seems to last a few minutes and it's back to sticking again. Is there a better lube for plastic?
When I had my X45 it was sticky also. The best thing I found to use was graphit. You can get it in a tube, it's like a fine power. Only problem is it can get all lover the stick bottom. It seemed to work the longest and didn't gunk up like other librucants.
This is, IMO the weakest piece of an otherwise fine piece of gear. They tout this center mechanism in thier marketing yet I think it just plain sucks. It sticks, there is a distingtive drop at the center position and it's nearly impossible (at least it was for me) to perform fine movement anywhere near the center position. The "cup" ring that the "saucer" sits in actually sheared off on mine.
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For a decent headset/Mic you dont have to go big bucks
for $20 at Best Buy This suits VERY nicely Altec Lansing Headset Mic Combo (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7009989&type=product&id=1099392726767)
Lightweight, Sounds GREAT and Mic works well as long as you dont take them off your head and throw them against the wall too often (which is what I do instead of Cussing up a storm on Vox)
Also has inline volume control and mic switch.
Very nice set for the price
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I'd recomend the X45. But I can't stand twisty sticks. The only problem with my X45 is that the hat is finally wearing out about 6 months out of my 1 year coverage plan.
Also, I have a nice set of headphones that DO NOT have a Mike on them. I have a cheapy 5 dollar set that do have a Mike. I use the mike from the cheapy set, but wear the nice set.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
When I had my X45 it was sticky also. The best thing I found to use was graphit. You can get it in a tube, it's like a fine power. Only problem is it can get all lover the stick bottom. It seemed to work the longest and didn't gunk up like other librucants.
I am currently trying Accrolube which is a teflon based grease. I applied a thin film with a Q-tip. It has helped so far. So far it has lasted a lot longer than the silicon I was using.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
I am currently trying Accrolube which is a teflon based grease. I applied a thin film with a Q-tip. It has helped so far. So far it has lasted a lot longer than the silicon I was using.
Sounds alot like something I picked up at a plae I used to work at ony it was called "Teflon Lube"
Use it on my fishing reels. Works great and is water proof
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I use the CH USB Fighter stick and pro-throttle combo; I do not use the pedals. I have been usinmg CH stuff for years now, and like them.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
When I had my X45 it was sticky also. The best thing I found to use was graphit. You can get it in a tube, it's like a fine power. Only problem is it can get all lover the stick bottom. It seemed to work the longest and didn't gunk up like other librucants.
This is, IMO the weakest piece of an otherwise fine piece of gear. They tout this center mechanism in thier marketing yet I think it just plain sucks. It sticks, there is a distingtive drop at the center position and it's nearly impossible (at least it was for me) to perform fine movement anywhere near the center position. The "cup" ring that the "saucer" sits in actually sheared off on mine.
I also tried the graphite - what a mess! Then I read a suggestion to try "plumbers grease". I went to Home Depot and got a small container, put it on with a q-tip about 10 months ago, and have not had to re-apply since then, still working fine.
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Originally posted by Don
I use the CH USB Fighter stick and pro-throttle combo; I do not use the pedals. I have been usinmg CH stuff for years now, and like them.
In my opinion being without a rudder is a big handicap in the game. I'd recommend pedals, a twisty stick, or some type of control that is easy to access and can be used as a rudder. I understand on many Saitek sticks there is a lever people use for the same purpose.
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Soda, The CH pro throttle has a mini joystick that can be assigned for rudder control. I use it this way myself.
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I use the "girly" X-52:D Its not that bad really but I should of put the $150 towards CH gear since I already have the Pro Pedals new and still in the box. (the X-52 was an impulse buy, I really have to quit that stuff:rolleyes: )
Anyways, what ever you wind up getting, stay away from the Thrustmaster Cougar. Its an unreliable, frustrating, moody POS and not worth the hassle or the money. (another impulse buy:mad: )
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I have a thrustmaster afterburner 2 joystick and it is no longer stable along the x axis after 1 year of ah use.
Ill try to fix the poti, but not sure if it will work out.
Is there any optical stuff left? I thought optical sensors would be way better, why are they not used in the top line joysticks?
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Originally posted by Schutt
I have a thrustmaster afterburner 2 joystick and it is no longer stable along the x axis after 1 year of ah use.
Ill try to fix the poti, but not sure if it will work out.
Is there any optical stuff left? I thought optical sensors would be way better, why are they not used in the top line joysticks?
New pots should fix your problem. You can fork out the money for Hall sensor pots (top of the line optical). Look them up on Google and you should be able to find a supplier. Warning they are pricy. This is what all the Cougar drivers are putting in their sticks. If you don't want to spend that much money you can go to CH's replacement parts site and buy pots. These are the same post that they put in their sticks and they are good pots.
That's not a bad little setup and new pots should make it work quite well. If it were me I'd do that before I'd go out and buy a Saitek,.
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I use the Saitek X45 atm. As soon as I can afford CH gear this junk from Saitek is going in the trash. Worst things about the X45: trigger and hat switches wear out to quickly, the joystick begins to *stick* after a couple hours of use and requires you to lube them regularly. They also have a tendency to spike.
That said, if you buy one, buy it from Best Buy and purchase the 2 year replacement warranty for 10 bucks. Every time the stick goes bad take it back to Best Buy for a replacement and purchase the 2 year replacement warranty again.
The X45 is NOT worth the $80 you initially pay for it but it is the best $10 stick on the market ;)
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winder2 pro is a great stick but the optics get monkeyed up after a year or so.
CH will last forever, especially if using Trackir with it instead of the hats.
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I can also recomend the CH joysticks. I just got the Quadrant Throttle myself and after some playing around in the setup I love having seperate engine manifold levers and a combined RPM lever. This left me with 3 levers to use for trim and I find it is a lot more intuitive with a actual lever vice pressing a button.
One thing I do think you can get better then CH is the pedels. I recomend the SIMPED Vario-pro if you are going full out on a HOTAS setup. Much wider stance then the CH and a more comfortable movement. You have to order from Germany though but it only takes 2-3 weeks to receave them.
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I have the X45 and one way to help "soften" the feel of the stick, without lube, is to put a small panduit around 2 or 3 rings of the spring to help compress it. It was too stiff for my liking when new and now it is buttery soft and easy to use without the jerky effect.
Try it you'll like it! If not, it's easy to remove...
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Originally posted by LivetoDie
I have the X45 and one way to help "soften" the feel of the stick, without lube, is to put a small panduit around 2 or 3 rings of the spring to help compress it. It was too stiff for my liking when new and now it is buttery soft and easy to use without the jerky effect.
Try it you'll like it! If not, it's easy to remove...
Yeah, I think I tried everything imaginable on my old X45 to fix the stick. Once the "cup ring" broke off I put a wooden "donut" into the depression for the saucer to rest on. (cut it in half and slid each side under the saucer) That worked better than the original ring did, but not great. One of these days if I feel ambitious I'm going to redesign it and attach springs to the gimble inside it and remove that centering spring. This way I can give the X45 to my grandson when he's ready to fly. He's only 2 1/2 so I think I have some time:
:lol
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Originally posted by 345
I can also recomend the CH joysticks. I just got the Quadrant Throttle myself and after some playing around in the setup I love having seperate engine manifold levers and a combined RPM lever. This left me with 3 levers to use for trim and I find it is a lot more intuitive with a actual lever vice pressing a button.
One thing I do think you can get better then CH is the pedels. I recomend the SIMPED Vario-pro if you are going full out on a HOTAS setup. Much wider stance then the CH and a more comfortable movement. You have to order from Germany though but it only takes 2-3 weeks to receave them.
Have to agree with you on that 354. I have the Pro Pedels and they are a bit close together. There's no way you could design a Sim-Pit with the stick between your legs Navy style. You'd have to fly bow-legged. I looked into the Simped pedels, very nice pedels, but I was at my budget limit and they were just a bit to much.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Lightweight, Sounds GREAT and Mic works well as long as you dont take them off your head and throw them against the wall too often (which is what I do instead of Cussing up a storm on Vox)
LOLOL, Ive went through a few headsets that way. Been using a radioshack headset for 2 years now though.
Got a tip also. Before I was able to shell out for a CH setup, I used racing pedals as a substitute for flight pedals for a couple years. I found them much more precise than trying to use the twisty stick (which I used for about 4 years.)
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Everyone is refering to CH products that cost $300?? Is that the stick, throttle, ped combined? which ch stick is the best? Fighterstick or Combatstick?
Sorry for not understanding.
JB28
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Originally posted by JB28
Everyone is refering to CH products that cost $300?? Is that the stick, throttle, ped combined? which ch stick is the best? Fighterstick or Combatstick?
Sorry for not understanding.
JB28
well as far as which is better i have the fighterstick IIRC, and love it
the price thing... IIRC also, $125 for the rudder pedals, and probably the same for the stick, and probably $75 -$100 for the throttle (there is a throttle on the base of the stick, so it is not "needed"
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You can get all the CH products for under $100 each if you look. I just ordered the Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals from Provantage for $277 total.